UKC

British ski season workforce: death by Brexit

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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/22/british-ski-workers-set-to-lose-seasonal-jobs-after-brexit
 

It's game over for the thousands of ski reps and holiday reps who work in Europe. 

Grim.

 Wainers44 24 Nov 2020
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

One of the easier things to predict coming out of the brexit fiasco. 

Our national arrogance meant that we didn't need to worry about our youth being able to work abroad, our families being being able to holiday anywhere and our retired being able to buy that villa in the Costa. Bound to be ok, we are British,  of course everyone will still welcome us?

Grim indeed.

18
 girlymonkey 24 Nov 2020
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

I could never have paid to go on ski holidays to learn to ski, I learnt while working a season in the alps. I then had 2 more really good seasons in chalets as a ski host and driver. 

Glad I did it when I did as it looks like it's gone now! Such a shame.

 Enty 24 Nov 2020
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

"Doing a season in The Alps" was one of the greatest adventures a kid could do. Another fantastic opportunity for our youth taken away by racists.

E

28
 Wainers44 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Wainers44:

A dislike, what a surprise.  Not.

Wonder what you dont like. The possibility that any young person could want to work abroad anyway as their prospects are so good here? That I dare suggest your holiday in some Spanish little England could be at risk? Or that your dream home by the golf course is easier and cheaper for a german to buy now. Blooming germans....

Hope this is sorted somehow, but also, being selfish, so glad that my kids had the chance to do this before it was all spoilt. Anyway, work beckons....

14
 TheGeneralist 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Wainers44:

Can someone( or all  6 of you) elaborate on the dislikes? I'm interested to understand.

Thanks

Post edited at 09:31
14
 yorkshireman 24 Nov 2020
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

But they can stay at home looking at their blue passport?

I've got my application for French citizenship mostly filled in - should get it submitted this week or next. although of course no guarantee. I can stay here with permanent residency already, but want to get back the freedom of movement a EU passport brings. Even after all these years I feel nothing but anger at what my country chose to do for no apparent benefit.

> Can someone( or all  6 of you) elaborate on the dislikes? I'm interested to understand.

Seriously, don't get hung up on it. The web is full of bots, trackers and crawlers (not all maliscious, think Google has to read everything to index it). So not every click is from a human. I read somewhere that 25% of Youtube views aren't from actual people.

1
 Doug 24 Nov 2020
In reply to yorkshireman:

> . I can stay here with permanent residency already, but want to get back the freedom of movement a EU passport brings.

I have an interview at the préfecture in a couple of weeks to get my carte de séjour but when I spoke to them they assured me that the carte would allow me to travel freely within the Schengen zone. But maybe not to work ? - didn't ask as I'm retired.  I'm waiting for another year or so to ask for French nationality as then I can qualify by marriage which is much simpler & requires a lot less documentation.

 Rob Exile Ward 24 Nov 2020
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

I've got some skin in this game - my daughter is graduating this year in French, German and Business Studies, she's done her winter season,  summer season, she's a good skier and you can imagine what her aspirations were back in 2016...

I'm rather hoping the situation will 'evolve' and the demand for her skillset will return over the coming years. 44 years ago when I got a summer job in Chamonix(!) any regulations that there may have been were definitely overlooked if a business needed workers: let's hope Europe is equally pragmatic this time round.

baron 24 Nov 2020
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

> It's game over for the thousands of ski reps and holiday reps who work in Europe. 

> Grim.

It’s excellent news for the young people of France, unemployment rate nearly 20%, who will be able to fill those jobs.

You don’t have any problem with french people finding employment, do you?

39
In reply to TheGeneralist:

> Can someone( or all  6 of you) elaborate on the dislikes? I'm interested to understand.

> Thanks

I was not one of the dislikers and voted to remain just to place myself in context. I think what some dislike is sneering tone of the posts, the claim to absolute knowledge and all seeing wisdom. I really would have preferred that we had remained but there was a referendum, a General Election that (like it or not) routed this position. We've left and we have to live with the ups and downs. I doubt if this particular 'loss' will keep many awake at night (sorry that's a bit supercilious)

The thread began about the loss of positions in the resorts as if this was all down to Brexit. This I am afraid doesn't stand to scrutiny. Governments in Europe (local and national) have implemented minimum wage standards, ski guiding / teaching licences and insurance. They have raised the safety requirements of shared accommodation.  These have all been squeezing the financial viability of the seasonaire and many woeful 'chalets'. Many government agencies have been frustrated as to how or why Brits somehow managed to trangress all these rules with employees who don't pay tax, stay in often squalid accommodation and make no attempt to integrate and 'take jobs from local people' (whether that's justified or not) who live there all year round. All the profits ending up in the UK.

'Game over' was the opening line. If the resorts need Brits they are going to have to pay staff properly, pay tax and be insured (as employees), and I don't see that as a bad thing. As for the sensationalist Guardianista claptrap about ski-ing only for the wealthy, well to some extent that's always been truish. No-one needs to get in a plane and slide down artificially snow cannoned slopes. 

Costs however have trimmed in other areas, low cost airlines, hire cars are incredibly cheap and the rise of air bnb for accommodation. Ski clothing and gear hire is much better value than 30 years ago.

Post edited at 10:27
3
 Enty 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

I'm here in France. All my friends ski. Some of my friends are restaurateurs, some have restaurants in The Alps. I have two friends who run chalet businesses in In Alpe d'Huez. I have a friend who runs a fantastic hotel in Alpe d'Huez. I have friends who run a chalet business in Meribel.

If you think the French youth are queuing up to take these jobs you're living in cloud cuckoo land. Either that or you're twisting this to suit your warped pro-brexit argument.

E

8
 Enty 24 Nov 2020
In reply to aostaman:

I have a French girl and | French guy work for me in summer. I also have two British guys who have worked for me for over 7 yeras.
What's going to happen to these two guys next year is definitely giving me sleepless nights - and that's not even mentioning the 3 months stay bollocks.

E

1
 Ian W 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> It’s excellent news for the young people of France, unemployment rate nearly 20%, who will be able to fill those jobs.

> You don’t have any problem with french people finding employment, do you?

Excellent news for the unemployed youth of the housing projects / estates of St Denis / Arras / Lille in much the same way as the newly found rural agricultural opportunities are for the unemployed youth of Salford, Elswick and Toxteth (other disadvantaged urban areas are available).

Brilliant idea in theory, but it isn't realistically going to happen...........

Post edited at 10:49
baron 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Enty:

> I'm here in France. All my friends ski. Some of my friends are restaurateurs, some have restaurants in The Alps. I have two friends who run chalet businesses in In Alpe d'Huez. I have a friend who runs a fantastic hotel in Alpe d'Huez. I have friends who run a chalet business in Meribel.

> If you think the French youth are queuing up to take these jobs you're living in cloud cuckoo land. Either that or you're twisting this to suit your warped pro-brexit argument.

> E

Are your friends those people who pay low wages and let their employees live in poor accommodation while charging large amounts of money for their services.

It’s not a coincidence that most seasonal workers in ski resorts are young. My twisted pro Brexit argument would seem to offer the chance for french people to gain employment in France.

If they choose not to take that opportunity then that’s up to them.

Do you have a problem with them being offered that opportunity?

As for the seasonal workers from the U.K. - they can find similar low paid, poorly accommodated employment in the U.K. holiday industry where there will plenty of jobs vacated by EU nationals.

50
mysterion 24 Nov 2020
In reply to aostaman:

> I was not one of the dislikers and voted to remain just to place myself in context. I think what some dislike is sneering tone of the posts, the claim to absolute knowledge and all seeing wisdom.

Yes , spittle-flecked loons who cannot move with the times, it's not a good look is it, not then and not now

10
 jezb1 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> Do you have a problem with them being offered that opportunity?

> As for the seasonal workers from the U.K. - they can find similar low paid, poorly accommodated employment in the U.K. holiday industry where there will plenty of jobs vacated by EU nationals.

Didn't those people have that opportunity already?

The UK holiday industry probably isn't quite as busy over the winter as the Alps though is it and it doesn't have the, er, Alps, does it?

 Andy Hardy 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

Have you noticed how every one of your brexit silver linings is wrapped in a massive cloud?

2
 yorkshireman 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> My twisted pro Brexit argument would seem to offer the chance for french people to gain employment in France.

British membership of the EU didn't previously stop the French from taking these jobs.

If poorer EU migrants were being exploited in low-paying jobs overseas (veg pickers in UK for instnace) then its only because we were OK with that as a nation - we like cheap stuff. Plenty could be done (and should be) to prevent exploitation. If they're all being paid legal minimum wage and work in humane conditions then why wouldn't locals take those jobs?

> As for the seasonal workers from the U.K. - they can find similar low paid, poorly accommodated employment in the U.K. holiday industry where there will plenty of jobs vacated by EU nationals.

I don't disagree, but why should they? Again all of what you say is true - I just don't see any benefit whatsoever, and so many disadvantages. This is what is so frustrating.

I'm going to be OK - my immediate family will be fine - I'm in an established career, own property, have lived in France long enough to get the citizenship etc and life will be fine. I just don't see the benefit of yanking away all of the benefits that I grew up with away from generations below me for no tangible benefit. I'm seriously open to having my mind change - I genuinely think of myself as a rationalist but I've not seen a single argument from pro-Brexit advocates in the last 5 years where the answer isn't "fine, but why would that make things any better than they are today?"

1
baron 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> Have you noticed how every one of your brexit silver linings is wrapped in a massive cloud?

I never said that the ski resort situation was a Brexit silver lining.

But it’s a good opportunity for local employment.

It seems strange that me, a Brexiteer, is looking out for french workers while the EUers are adopting a British first approach.

Strange world, eh?

28
 off-duty 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> It’s not a coincidence that most seasonal workers in ski resorts are young. My twisted pro Brexit argument would seem to offer the chance for french people to gain employment in France.

Just remind me how "French jobs for French people" is a Brexit advantage for the British?

The pro-brexit argument appears to be - it's not as good for British citizens than it is at the moment but it isn't THAT sh1t.

Not exactly the sunlit uplands we were promised.

2
baron 24 Nov 2020
In reply to yorkshireman:

If you’re OK with paying low wages and over working employees while enabling them to live in poor conditions then let’s keep the status quo.

When there’s no longer a pool of U.K. workers willing to be exploited then maybe employers will have to improve pay and working conditions so that the french locals will be interested.

Same goes for the U.K. leisure and hospitality industry when the EU nationals decide to return home.
 

I’m all for increasing the cost of a holiday as long as the money goes to the employees and not just the employers

18
baron 24 Nov 2020
In reply to off-duty:

> Just remind me how "French jobs for French people" is a Brexit advantage for the British?

> The pro-brexit argument appears to be - it's not as good for British citizens than it is at the moment but it isn't THAT sh1t.

> Not exactly the sunlit uplands we were promised.

It’s not an advantage for British people.

But I don’t have a problem with the EU benefiting from Brexit as well. Why would I?

Unlike some posters on this thread.

17
 Davidlees215 24 Nov 2020
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

I worked in a French hotel in the Alps in 2002-3 and earnt French minimum wage. There were some deductions for accomodation, food and lift pass but even with these I still earnt well over €1,000 a month after tax. I was always confused about how British firms sent people out to work there and seemed to get away with paying them a couple of hundred quid a month and how that fit in with French or eu law.

 off-duty 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> If you’re OK with paying low wages and over working employees while enabling them to live in poor conditions then let’s keep the status quo.

It's quite a sweeping statement to indicate that all UK Alps workers are exploited and live in poor conditions. It's similarly incredibly naive to think that the "poor conditions" are a UK employer issue. It's a ski resort accommodation is at a premium. All seasonaires take the hit on that - regardless of nationality.

As a ski instructor in the Alps you will be earning a competitive wage, but still probably be living in shared accommodation or a small studio. 

> When there’s no longer a pool of U.K. workers willing to be exploited then maybe employers will have to improve pay and working conditions so that the french locals will be interested.

It's almost like you've never been to a ski resort.  Nationals from all countries work in resorts. "Bizarrely" tourists from particular countries end up hitting bars, restaurants and ski schools that cater to them. That's always been the case. You'll get "posh" French style bars and mental Scandinavian bars.

It doesn't matter who opens the bars or who works there. If the tourists don't go, the bars go bust.

> Same goes for the U.K. leisure and hospitality industry when the EU nationals decide to return home.

Yeah. I can see Glenridding becoming the next Val Thorens...

> I’m all for increasing the cost of a holiday as long as the money goes to the employees and not just the employers

Ah. Another benefit of Brexit. Increasing the costs of holidays for the British to improve things for the Europeans. Not entirely convinced that was in the Brexit manifesto.

 off-duty 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> It’s not an advantage for British people.

> But I don’t have a problem with the EU benefiting from Brexit as well. Why would I?

> Unlike some posters on this thread.

It's the "as well" bit I'm struggling with. Nothing here is advantageous to UK citizens.

Post edited at 12:18
 off-duty 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Davidlees215:

There was a crackdown a quite a few years ago. From what I recollect it was all down to the provision of accommodation and food which was in essence deducted from wages - even though sorting out your own accommodation wasn't actually possible. I can remember how it got resolved in the end.

 seankenny 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

The simple point - however much you try to dress up your foolishness as generosity - is that you voted to take away opportunities for British young people. Obviously this is just one small opportunity they’re losing but clearly something dear to posters on a mountain sports website.
 

You supported a campaign whose cheerleaders made no secret of their desire to bring down the whole EU, so any attempts to dress up your position as “giving the EU some benefits from Brexit too” is a feeble retroactive attempt to portray Brexit as something it isn’t and never was. 

3
baron 24 Nov 2020
In reply to off-duty:

> It's the "as well" bit I'm struggling with. Nothing here is advantageous to UK citizens.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I have said somewhere that the ski resort situation is a positive for U.K. workers in the Alps brought about by Brexit.

It obviously isn’t.

My point is that it is good for French workers who will, if they choose to, be able to fill those jobs. Hopefully with better pay and conditions than those experienced by many U.K. seasonal workers.

And maybe there can be a knock on effect for workers in the U.K. who are often underpaid and overworked.

15
In reply to Enty:

> If you think the French youth are queuing up to take these jobs you're living in cloud cuckoo land. Either that or you're twisting this to suit your warped pro-brexit argument.

My impression was that ESF was, if not a closed shop, already heavily biased in favour of French ski instructors.  I don't have any problem with that, in many resorts other ski schools seem to be more international, but I would be surprised in Brits were ever forcing French instructors out of their jobs in French resorts.

I guess they'll just get their chalet staff from elsewhere in the EU and the only people who will really lose out will be our young people. 

baron 24 Nov 2020
In reply to seankenny:

> The simple point - however much you try to dress up your foolishness as generosity - is that you voted to take away opportunities for British young people. Obviously this is just one small opportunity they’re losing but clearly something dear to posters on a mountain sports website.

> You supported a campaign whose cheerleaders made no secret of their desire to bring down the whole EU, so any attempts to dress up your position as “giving the EU some benefits from Brexit too” is a feeble retroactive attempt to portray Brexit as something it isn’t and never was. 

French workers benefiting  is indeed an unintended consequence of Brexit.

But I’m not disappointed by that. Why would I be? I’m anti EU not anti European. Are you upset that job opportunities will be increased for some people?

Your attempts to limit Brexit to a movement led by a few anti EU cheerleaders who persuaded millions of undecided voters to support their cause is laughable.

And shows a complete misunderstanding of many Brexiteers motives. But you don’t want to understand do you? I don’t have to explain or defend Brexit, it’s happening/has happened and for better or worse people need to get on with it.

Or sit around and rerun the referendum arguments.

13
 George Ormerod 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

I’m sure you’re right and the French youth will be flocking to take up this exciting Brexit opportunity, as their British brothers and sisters are to harvest crops on British farms. 

 off-duty 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I have said somewhere that the ski resort situation is a positive for U.K. workers in the Alps brought about by Brexit.

> It obviously isn’t.

Yep. We are in agreement here.

> My point is that it is good for French workers who will, if they choose to, be able to fill those jobs. Hopefully with better pay and conditions than those experienced by many U.K. seasonal workers.

I think that the suggestion that the only reason these jobs aren't taken by French national is "because they are exploited by UK employers" is wrong. As I highlighted previously. It's the economy of a ski resort. An economy that UK workers can no longer have easy access to.

> And maybe there can be a knock on effect for workers in the U.K. who are often underpaid and overworked.

LOL. It's clear you've never worked in the seasonal holiday industry. There is a reason kids like to go abroad and teach skiing, windsurfing, work in resorts and bars in Europe. Even the most ardent Brexiteer can't move the UK to produce reliable hot summers and cold blue sky snowy winters.

There is no upside to UK citizens. There is only a "it might not be THAT sh1t".

Which to be fair characterises Brexit now that it is almost a reality.

1
baron 24 Nov 2020
In reply to George Ormerod:

> I’m sure you’re right and the French youth will be flocking to take up this exciting Brexit opportunity, as their British brothers and sisters are to harvest crops on British farms. 

Do I detect a note of sarcasm?

9
 off-duty 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> French workers benefiting  is indeed an unintended consequence of Brexit.

> But I’m not disappointed by that. Why would I be? I’m anti EU not anti European. Are you upset that job opportunities will be increased for some people?

> Your attempts to limit Brexit to a movement led by a few anti EU cheerleaders who persuaded millions of undecided voters to support their cause is laughable.

> And shows a complete misunderstanding of many Brexiteers motives. But you don’t want to understand do you? I don’t have to explain or defend Brexit, it’s happening/has happened and for better or worse people need to get on with it.

> Or sit around and rerun the referendum arguments.

Line one "unintended consequences of Brexit".

Remainder of post : some kind of post hoc "pro-European anti EU" justification. Coupled with a "you don't understand Brexiteers motives".

All of which is undermined by line one.

Fully accept "it's going to happen". Just as you appear to accept that the best that can be said about Brexit is that it isn't going to advantageous.to the UK but it might not be that sh1t. Well, that's gotta be worth the cost...

baron 24 Nov 2020
In reply to off-duty:

> Yep. We are in agreement here.

> I think that the suggestion that the only reason these jobs aren't taken by French national is "because they are exploited by UK employers" is wrong. As I highlighted previously. It's the economy of a ski resort. An economy that UK workers can no longer have easy access to.

> LOL. It's clear you've never worked in the seasonal holiday industry. There is a reason kids like to go abroad and teach skiing, windsurfing, work in resorts and bars in Europe. Even the most ardent Brexiteer can't move the UK to produce reliable hot summers and cold blue sky snowy winters.

> There is no upside to UK citizens. There is only a "it might not be THAT sh1t".

> Which to be fair characterises Brexit now that it is almost a reality.

Why are banging on about benefits for U.K. workers?

My first post on this thread was about the possible benefits for locals. Nowhere did I mention what a good deal it was for U.K. workers. As I’ve already said, it obviously isn’t a good thing.
But any attempt to explore the chances of any possible benefits Is jumped on as an attempt to justify Brexit and once again  UKC thread turns into a justify Brexit thread.

Thanks for the debate, I’m out.

13
 off-duty 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> Why are banging on about benefits for U.K. workers?

Personally I'd quite like to see a positive for British workers out of any political changes.

> My first post on this thread was about the possible benefits for locals. Nowhere did I mention what a good deal it was for U.K. workers. As I’ve already said, it obviously isn’t a good thing.

Yep. Definitely a step back.

> But any attempt to explore the chances of any possible benefits Is jumped on as an attempt to justify Brexit and once again  UKC thread turns into a justify Brexit thread.

What are the those benefits you are attempting to explore? At best they appear summed up as "not THAT sh1t". Which isn't exactly how I would define a benefit.

> Thanks for the debate, I’m out.

Ironically, so it appears are we. It does appear that ""We're out, get over it" is a regular response.

Edit to add: 

Just to be clear. I think there will be a way ahead for Brits wanting to work in the ski industry/resorts abroad. It won't be as easy, it'll probably be time and visa limited, there will be less opportunities. There will probably be more exploitation as the temptation to employ Brits "on the black" where it's cheaper and unregulated will increase. The possibilities of staying and settling out there, of building a business will now face even more red-tape, some countries being more tractable than others.

It might not be THAT sh1t. 

Post edited at 13:05
 Rob Exile Ward 24 Nov 2020
In reply to off-duty:

It doesn't seem a lot to ask that SOMEONE can come up with a single, tangible benefit to offset the chaos we are facing in 40 days time.

Just one would do, maybe we could build on it and then find 2, or even 3...

And the irony is however catastrophic Brexit turns out to be it STILL won't satisfy the die-hard Brexiteers and braying Tory MPs. We might as well face facts and resume WW II because that's the only thing that ever will.

Post edited at 13:17
6
 ClimberEd 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> It doesn't seem a lot to ask that SOMEONE can come up with a single, tangible benefit to offset the chaos we are facing in 40 days time.

>

- We'll have more control over who we let into the country to work

- We're free to support industries in competition with other European companies

- We choose our own standards for our goods and services. Which means if we don't have to apply EU standards if we don't agree with them.

I'm a staunch remainer but it is naive to state that there are no benefits whatsoever. 

14
 Ciro 24 Nov 2020
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Don't worry, after Brexit everyone will want to come to the UK and ski. Aviemore is going to benefit tremendously from new trade deals with minor countries in the far East. Stop selling our great British skiing short. Get on board with the new Even Greater Britain!

 girlymonkey 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Ciro:

Good job the funicular and snow conditions are so reliable too! I don't know why anyone bothers with the alps for skiing! 😜

 S Ramsay 24 Nov 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

I'd bet pretty heavily against a trade deal being agreed which allows tariff free access to the EU and doesn't have heavy restrictions on state support for British companies.

2
mysterion 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Ciro:

Miners and car workers had to come to terms with change but now that it's even  affecting the educated middle class on their gap year it simply has to stop

Post edited at 14:17
4
In reply to ClimberEd:

> - We'll have more control over who we let into the country to work

> - We're free to support industries in competition with other European companies

> - We choose our own standards for our goods and services. Which means if we don't have to apply EU standards if we don't agree with them.

I will not make the argument that the last two 'benefits' will not be used by this govt for the good of the general population as this can't be proven and the gullible ideological will argue that they will. However, the first on you list ignores the fact that we had control over our borders for the world outwith the EU (remember this is the important bit, according Brexiters, and the bit we will soon be negotiating trade and visa deals with) and also that we did not exercise the full control over EU immigration that we were able to because it did not suit us to do so.

 seankenny 24 Nov 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

But these benefits are all a bit crap!

> - We'll have more control over who we let into the country to work

Companies will be ensared in more red tape, finding it harder to get the people they need, and as a result won't be as competitive. Investment in some areas will go to parts of the EU without those restrictions, leading to less output in the UK and hence less tax. Plus obvious loss of freedom for British workers.

> - We're free to support industries in competition with other European companies

British people will be free to work in backwards, uncompetitive companies making goods that wouldn't sell without government subsidy. If it was so good last time, why did we stop doing it eh?

> - We choose our own standards for our goods and services. Which means if we don't have to apply EU standards if we don't agree with them.

British people get to work in less safe environments and consume products that aren't quite as safe (before you say they could be better, making trade harder means companies will be keen to, ahem, economise in other ways). Of course anyone exporting will simply produce their goods to the standards of the largest market, unless they think making substandard rubbish for the Brits is their profitable niche.

> I'm a staunch remainer but it is naive to state that there are no benefits whatsoever. 

I get your point, but it's naive (on Brexiters' part, I'm sure you're aware of this) to paint the above as real benefits. Naturally the EU won't allow us to undercut them on environmental or employment protections so if we do get any of these benefits, it'll essentially be due to a terrible deal and so a massive failure rather than a success.

 Ciro 24 Nov 2020
In reply to mysterion:

> Miners and car workers had to come to terms with change but now that it's even  affecting the educated middle class on their gap year it simply has to stop

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you suggesting that Thatcher's Britain was the EU's fault?

In reply to ClimberEd:

> We choose our own standards for our goods and services. Which means if we don't have to apply EU standards if we don't agree with them

We do if we want to trade our goods in the EU.

But we will have no say in the formulation of those regulations. This was pointed out time and again prior to the referendum. Even the Norwegian Foreign Minister explained it very clearly.

 seankenny 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> Your attempts to limit Brexit to a movement led by a few anti EU cheerleaders who persuaded millions of undecided voters to support their cause is laughable.

> And shows a complete misunderstanding of many Brexiteers motives. But you don’t want to understand do you? I don’t have to explain or defend Brexit, it’s happening/has happened and for better or worse people need to get on with it.

I'm afraid trying this is trying to paint Brexiters as more complex, intriguing and mysterious than they really are. We perfectly well understand the motivations behind Brexit. We just don't think they make sense on the terms - of national renewal, or increased freedom - that Brexiters ascribe to their project, and in fact the only way it all hangs together is as an atavistic spasm against foreigners. But you've politely told us many times that Brexiters aren't xenophobes, so out of politeness we shall stick to comparing the avowed goal of increased national pride and opportunity against the many and obvious downsides for British people.

I shall note that the likes of the ERG spent decades "getting on with" campaigning aginst being in the EU. We will certainly do the same - despite Brexiters feverent wish that we would shut up and eat the shit they are shovelling in our direction.

> Or sit around and rerun the referendum arguments.

You simply don't like being held to account. No Brexiter does. Admitting that you were a cheerleader for fewer opportunities, for being poorer, having a less well-funded NHS and for removing the rights of your fellow citizens is simply too difficult, hence all this guff about opportunities for French youth. I suspect a big red bus with "Jobs for the French" on the side wouldn't have won you your victory.

1
In reply to aostaman:

> I was not one of the dislikers and voted to remain just to place myself in context. I think what some dislike is sneering tone of the posts, the claim to absolute knowledge and all seeing wisdom. I really would have preferred that we had remained but there was a referendum, a General Election that (like it or not) routed this position. We've left and we have to live with the ups and downs. I doubt if this particular 'loss' will keep many awake at night (sorry that's a bit supercilious)

Your absolutely right, it won't. Lets face it a few chalet girls and gap yah students losing an opportunity is just the sort of attack on elites many people will have voted for. However, it isn't only the preserve of the middle classes, will affect summer seasonal work as well and, no matter how you dress it up it is a downside for some UK citizens with no upside for others.

> The thread began about the loss of positions in the resorts as if this was all down to Brexit. This I am afraid doesn't stand to scrutiny. Governments in Europe (local and national) have implemented minimum wage standards, ski guiding / teaching licences and insurance. They have raised the safety requirements of shared accommodation.  These have all been squeezing the financial viability of the seasonaire and many woeful 'chalets'. Many government agencies have been frustrated as to how or why Brits somehow managed to trangress all these rules with employees who don't pay tax, stay in often squalid accommodation and make no attempt to integrate and 'take jobs from local people' (whether that's justified or not) who live there all year round. All the profits ending up in the UK.

You are conflating two things. The article details the tangible effect that Brexit will have as a result of losing the “posted worker” directive. The fact that some people or companies in the host country are not happy with the “posted worker” directive or that host countries are not enforcing their own safety and working standards (or allowing to be circumvented) is neither here nor there in the context of that. That they might start to enforce or introduce harsher rules is neither here nor there and will presumably apply to seasonal workers from other EU countries , as well as their own.

> 'Game over' was the opening line. If the resorts need Brits they are going to have to pay staff properly, pay tax and be insured (as employees), and I don't see that as a bad thing.

They have to do that anyway unless they are part of the “posted worker” directive. The fact is the resorts don't need to employ Brits so they won't due to the increased difficulty of doing so post Brexit. There are no upsides for the UK to this only downsides

> As for the sensationalist Guardianista claptrap about ski-ing only for the wealthy, well to some extent that's always been truish. No-one needs to get in a plane and slide down artificially snow cannoned slopes. 

> Costs however have trimmed in other areas, low cost airlines, hire cars are incredibly cheap and the rise of air bnb for accommodation. Ski clothing and gear hire is much better value than 30 years ago.

What has this got to do with the rest of the thread?

In reply to ClimberEd:

> - We choose our own standards for our goods and services. Which means if we don't have to apply EU standards if we don't agree with them.

Quite right.  As long as we don't wish to supply any of these goods and services to any country in the EU.

In reply to ClimberEd:

> - We'll have more control over who we let into the country to work

We have always been somewhat lax when it comes to using the powers that we always had.

> - We're free to support industries in competition with other European companies

State Aid was a useful excuse for the government not to support industries, of course it was exactly that, an excuse. It restricted much less than claimed.

> - We choose our own standards for our goods and services. Which means if we don't have to apply EU standards if we don't agree with them.

Unless we want to trade with them, or anyone on the same standard terms as they trade with other markets (see recent Canadian and Japanese deals). Same applies to State Aid.

> I'm a staunch remainer but it is naive to state that there are no benefits whatsoever. 

 Ian W 24 Nov 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

> - We'll have more control over who we let into the country to work

We could have exerted more control than we did but chose not to.

> - We're free to support industries in competition with other European companies

We were free to do that anyway (railways / steel / cars to name but 3 that receive support from national governments whilst in competition with our EU partners).

> - We choose our own standards for our goods and services. Which means if we don't have to apply EU standards if we don't agree with them.

We did agree to them, and were actively involved in setting them. Indeed in many areas the UK was ahead and dragged the existing EU standards up to match ours. We have always been free to maintain higher standards, and i cant really see the advantage in lowering standards to make us more competitive in other export markets, as that means we are in price competition with low wage economies rather than differentiation on quality, which gives greater added value for goods. 

> I'm a staunch remainer but it is naive to state that there are no benefits whatsoever.

Oh there are some benefits when looking at a particular situation in isolation. However, given that almost nothing we do is in isolation, the bigger picture always (unless anyone can demonstrate otherwise) seems to give a net negative.

Post edited at 14:52
 Ian W 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> I never said that the ski resort situation was a Brexit silver lining.

> But it’s a good opportunity for local employment.

Who have always had that opportunity. Locals (local to the alps) are not short of seasonal work (well, full time work, the alps is pretty much a year round holiday area), its just that those unemployed french youth have no interest / history / desire to work in the alps.  

> It seems strange that me, a Brexiteer, is looking out for french workers while the EUers are adopting a British first approach.

Not so strange when your ideas of how this helps the french are not really applicable or workable.

> Strange world, eh?

Very!

 CGumbie 24 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> If you’re OK with paying low wages and over working employees while enabling them to live in poor conditions then let’s keep the status quo.

I am not aware of my peers complaining about low wages and rubbish living conditions during their seasons, in part because it isn't a career. People do seasons to enjoy the mountains and it's a relatively cost neutral way to do that. Add in that most seasonaires are about to go off to uni or fresh out of uni, the accommodation is no worse than what most are used to. Living in rented houses with graduates or being a student are hardly known for their top notch conditions.  

 

 CGumbie 24 Nov 2020

> We were free to do that anyway (railways / steel / cars to name but 3 that receive support from national governments whilst in competition with our EU partners).

Franchise rail lines in the are ran by companies owned by EU nation governments, there was never anything stopping the UK gov supporting industries, except for ideological opposition.

 ClimberEd 24 Nov 2020
In reply to all:

Loving all the arguments back to me on the points I made. Thanks everyone, I wasn't aware of them.

Cognitive bias is a funny old thing. Of course, as remainers, you can pick holes in any 'plus points of Brexit' but in doing so you are proving that you just don't get it. For most of those people who voted leave it is more important to them to have control over our standards, or be able to support our industries for example than have access to the EU market. There are no 'absolutes'. Everything is a trade off. These are plus points.

Just so it doesn't get personal, as often seems to be the case on here, don't bother attacking me as vote leave, I voted remain, and think all the reasons to remain far outweigh any to leave. 

10
 Ian W 24 Nov 2020
In reply to CGumbie:

> Franchise rail lines in the are ran by companies owned by EU nation governments, there was never anything stopping the UK gov supporting industries, except for ideological opposition.

Absolutely - i think you made my point better than me - there have always been industries that governments could declare "strategic" and hence be exempt from EU rules (oddly, passport printing was one, but we chose ideologically not to do that, hence de la rue lost out to EU competition for the blue'uns. We have however, from time to time seen fit to hand over subsidies to Nissan whilst in the EU.

In reply to ClimberEd:

> Cognitive bias is a funny old thing. Of course, as remainers, you can pick holes in any 'plus points of Brexit' but in doing so you are proving that you just don't get it. For most of those people who voted leave it is more important to them to have control over our standards, or be able to support our industries for example than have access to the EU market. There are no 'absolutes'. Everything is a trade off. These are plus points.

You gave, what you thought were, tangible benefits unrelated to the emotive arguments about sovereignty, control etc. They have been shown to be largely specious so you're back to pointing out how we remainers "don't get" that Brexit was not about reason or tangible economic benefits. We do get that which is why we give short shrift to arguments that try to claim this is not the case (like the three you listed above).

> Just so it doesn't get personal, as often seems to be the case on here, don't bother attacking me as vote leave, I voted remain, and think all the reasons to remain far outweigh any to leave. 

You keep saying this so I think you're pretty safe, just don't expect your spurious arguments to be given a free ride because you are a "staunch remainer".

Post edited at 15:44
1
 Rob Parsons 24 Nov 2020

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> You are showing you don't just get it either - just like your other Brexiteers.

> ... You voted for something that nobody could ever deliver.

As he has politely pointed out (twice now), he didn't vote for it ...

 Rob Exile Ward 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Rob Parsons:

You're quite correct, my bad. 

 ClimberEd 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Tyler:

> You gave, what you thought were, tangible benefits unrelated to the emotive arguments about sovereignty, control etc. They have been shown to be largely specious so you're back to pointing out how we remainers "don't get" that Brexit was not about reason or tangible economic benefits. We do get that which is why we give short shrift to arguments that try to claim this is not the case (like the three you listed above).

> You keep saying this so I think you're pretty safe, just don't expect your spurious arguments to be given a free ride because you are a "staunch remainer".

You're missing the point. Entirely. 

Your idea of a tangible benefit, and a 'vote leave' persons idea of a tangible benefit are different. The points I listed are considered tangible benefits by people who voted leave. 

If you don't get or agree with that you are being blinkered.

8
In reply to ClimberEd:

I'm not going to descend into a semantic argument over the meaning of tangible. Replace any usage of tangible with measurable and come back to me. 

2
 ClimberEd 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Tyler:

To someone who voted leave the qualitative benefits are just as tangible as the quantitative ones.

Not understanding that is one of the reason the remain campaign lost. Insisting qualitative factors are not tangible is part of that.

8
In reply to ClimberEd:

You might want to look up the definition of qualitative as well but that's by the by.

I'm not denying that people's emotions were stirred by nationalism and the thought that all decisions would be made solely by UK nationals, but, it would have been done in the expectation that the decision subsequently made would have some tangible, measurable or qualitative benefit to the Leave voter. The number of voters who would have voted Brexit knowing that it would leave them and the country worse off economically, less able to travel, facing more non-EU immigration, competing for jobs against an even cheaper labour force is tiny.

Other than the arguments that played nakedly towards the racist elements of people's psyche (which we are always told was in no way a factor in the Brexit vote) all the Leave arguments were couched in terms of measurable benefits, £350 million to NHS, better access to housing, more jobs, greater economic prosperity etc, more govt support for services. The reasons Leave won are many but the idea that leave voters are entirely unconcerned by the economic arguments is revisionism.

2
 ClimberEd 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Tyler:

Not really. 

I know multiple people, who I believe are representative of a certain section of society, who couldn't care less about the economic arguments, they just want to be free of being tied to the EU. 

5
 john arran 24 Nov 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

> I know multiple people, who I believe are representative of a certain section of society, who couldn't care less about the economic arguments, they just want to be free of being tied to the EU. 

That may be what they profess to want, and they may well be genuine. But there likely will come a point at which their lives are made significantly poorer as a result of the economic realities of no longer enjoying the benefits of EU membership. I then would have little doubt that such people will seek to find another explanation to explain their worsening economic situation, so as to avoid having to confront the reality that the horse they backed so heavily has turned out to be a nag.

2
 Ian W 24 Nov 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

> Not really. 

> I know multiple people, who I believe are representative of a certain section of society, who couldn't care less about the economic arguments, they just want to be free of being tied to the EU. 


I too have been quite surprised that despite all the arguments, publicity, media and discussion, there is a far larger group of people than i thought there would be that are dismissive of all the economic downside, but are very very keen on reducing freedom of movement (especially of darker skinned types) for those entering the UK, and reducing the number of EU laws that get imposed on us, giving us back our sovereignty. They know full well that there will be a significant economic impact, but believe very strongly that this is a price worth paying to stop the flow of illegal immigrants and to stop us being ruled by unelected bureaucrats in brussels.

The grief our (new, Tory) MP gets on her facebook page for not doing enough to stop the illegals crossing the channel is quite remarkable, especially given she represents a semi rural seat in the north of england.......

Post edited at 17:47
 ClimberEd 24 Nov 2020
In reply to john arran:

> That may be what they profess to want, and they may well be genuine. But there likely will come a point at which their lives are made significantly poorer as a result of the economic realities of no longer enjoying the benefits of EU membership. I then would have little doubt that such people will seek to find another explanation to explain their worsening economic situation, so as to avoid having to confront the reality that the horse they backed so heavily has turned out to be a nag.

I doubt it. Most of them are moderately well off and in old age so likely be dead before it would really impact them. There is a sub set who are young who may get a shock and I don't disagree with your sentiment though.

5
 deepsoup 24 Nov 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

> Insisting qualitative factors are not tangible is part of that.

Along with insisting that unicorns aren't real, while the populists who have no difficulty just blatantly lying say that they are.

You don't seem to understand what "tangible" means.  It doesn't include things that are imaginary.

2
 Rob Parsons 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Ian W:

> The grief our (new, Tory) MP gets on her facebook page for not doing enough to stop the illegals crossing the channel is quite remarkable, especially given she represents a semi rural seat in the north of england.......

It's not surprising: the Tory Party won the 2019 election - and those 'Red Wall' seats - essentially on the single issue of Brexit.

In reply to Ian W:

> I too have been quite surprised that despite all the arguments, publicity, media and discussion, there is a far larger group of people than i thought there would be that are dismissive of all the economic downside, but are very very keen on reducing freedom of movement (especially of darker skinned types) 

This is still a measurable outcome that will, in all likelihood not be met. 

 George Ormerod 24 Nov 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

> Not really. 

> I know multiple people, who I believe are representative of a certain section of society, who couldn't care less about the economic arguments, they just want to be free of being tied to the EU. 

You're quite right, Leave is a cult impervious to facts and reality.  I don't blame people for voting for a heart over head way, but I do blame the Leave politicians for lying about the massive downsides of Brexit.  'Remain' should continue to point out where they got it wrong - i.e. pretty much everywhere.  It took over 40 years of a lying to get us out of the EU, hopefully it will take us less time with facts to get back closer to Europe or even in the EU.

4
 ClimberEd 24 Nov 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

Imaginary to you. Not to those who have got what they wanted.

10
 Marek 24 Nov 2020
In reply to john arran:

There's an old adage that when you resort to a referendum, you end up governed by someone with an IQ of 100.

 deepsoup 24 Nov 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

> Imaginary to you. Not to those who have got what they wanted.

Riiiight, but the thing about a non-imaginary thing is that it's also real to those who are not imagining it.

In reply to Ian W:

Sorry a bit off topic but the bit about full time work isn't really true:

> Who have always had that opportunity. Locals (local to the alps) are not short of seasonal work (well, full time work, the alps is pretty much a year round holiday area), its just that those unemployed french youth have no interest / history / desire to work in the alps.  

Most alpine areas are very very seasonal, I live near Briancon which is reliant on tourism, but the reality is that it is only a few months a year, early July and August and then the ski season, but again really only the Christmas, half terms and Easter depending when it fall's. outside these times its dead, a lot of business shut or do massively reduced hours there just isn't the demand. and this is the same at a lot of alpine areas.

And that is an issue, unless your are in a position to be able to make a living in two seasons, that tends to be the owners of businesses rather than the staff, skilled worked such as ski instructors or having a skill to use out of season such as building or all three, but its definitely not full time work, which makes it very hard to commit to moving here. Hence its normal for tourist stuff to be staffed by younger people who are happier to do a season or two before they get a job to pay the mortgage etc. Its not about the money, its been legal in France for a while that any staff you have must be paid the minimum french wage, this was brought in to stop the issues of young people doing it for digs and a ski pass, so theses jobs are open to the French, but the long term prospects are not that great, so they don't take them up.

Paying more for a ski holiday wont change this unless year round work can be provided, so these jobs will be taken by the young, just thanks to Brexit not the UK young.

Post edited at 18:31
 Rob Exile Ward 24 Nov 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

Have got what they wanted? Anyone so poorly informed enough to want Brexit will never have enough of what they want. They are doomed to disappointment.

And it will, of course, be our fault. We stopped the UK being towed 3000 miles west to enjoy useful trade deals with Canada.

6
 seankenny 24 Nov 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

> I know multiple people, who I believe are representative of a certain section of society, who couldn't care less about the economic arguments, they just want to be free of being tied to the EU. 

Leave was a coalition of people who cared about economic issues, and those that just have a deep dislike of Europe. (They say it's just the EU, but really they hate anything being set by foreigners, so it's more Europe in my view.)

The problem for this later group is that the UK is where it is. The relationship with the EU is *always* going to be part of our politics. However much the Leavers wish it away the EU is an economic superpower and will strongly influence what happens here. That's regardless of what Leavers think, because it is an objective reality, so the question has to be "what's best for us and why", not blindly doing stupid shit as an end in itself. Many Leavers' end goal simply doesn't exist.

1
 Ciro 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Ian W:

> I too have been quite surprised that despite all the arguments, publicity, media and discussion, there is a far larger group of people than i thought there would be that are dismissive of all the economic downside, but are very very keen on reducing freedom of movement (especially of darker skinned types) for those entering the UK, and reducing the number of EU laws that get imposed on us, giving us back our sovereignty. They know full well that there will be a significant economic impact, but believe very strongly that this is a price worth paying to stop the flow of illegal immigrants and to stop us being ruled by unelected bureaucrats in brussels.

They may not be vocally motivated by the economic arguments, but fundamentally the working class Brexit vote had been driven by the economic realities of a widening gap between the haves and have-nots in this country, making people feel left behind, and feeling like they have no control.

While EU membership benefits the nation, many don't perceive the benefits in their lives. They just see stagnation after a decade of Tory austerity, and the tangible benefits such as the right to work, educate yourself and settle abroad tend to be taken up more by the middle classes. 

They've been guided to kick out at the wrong target. They've been told that unelected bureaucrats in Europe and immigrants are to blame (ironically by unelected bureaucrats such as the man with the novel eye test protocol).

Of course, Brexit won't give them back what the Tories have taken away. But a great many people are going to be too invested in Brexit to see where the actual problem lies.

Until we resolve our internal societal problems, we are going to be living in a country of low level unrest, which can be exploited by those who want to do so.

Post edited at 18:59
 yorkshireman 24 Nov 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

> Not really. 

> I know multiple people, who I believe are representative of a certain section of society, who couldn't care less about the economic arguments, they just want to be free of being tied to the EU. 

Doesn't this kind of blow your argument about 'tangible' benefits out of the water?

'Tied to the EU'* never stands up to scrutiny. Ask Brexiteers to name three specific EU laws regulations they disagree with and often struggle. Certainly they usually misrepresent the existing laws.

It usually comes back to wonky bananas/straight cucumbers, less powerful vacuums and 'too many' (although nobody seems to know how many is enough) foreigners.

*Also, we're obviously not 'tied' to the EU as the very fact that we're leaving it voluntarily, demonstrates. We entered into a mutually beneficial pact with other nation states - only our definition of mutual seems to be that we want to get more out of it than we put in.

2
In reply to ClimberEd:

Yeah but *breaking away from the EU* as a want is a non-specific thing. Many people want to quit their job, but I'm sure those people don't want homelessness, bankruptcy and starvation. 

People were brainwashed over decades to dislike the EU because of 'bananas and bureaucrats'. The vast majority of Brexiteers I have spoken to (including my own family members) cannot name a single legitimate law they don't like, or explain how the EU parliament is elected. They just don't like the EU. 

They may have got what they wanted, but in reality they don't really know what they want or what they are getting. 

5
In reply to yorkshireman:

It appears we wrote the same thing at the same time! 

 Ian W 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> It's not surprising: the Tory Party won the 2019 election - and those 'Red Wall' seats - essentially on the single issue of Brexit.


Oh, absolutely. It was during the election campaign last year that I became properly aware of how little anything else mattered to many, many people.

1
 Ian W 24 Nov 2020
In reply to Ciro:

Yup. Absolutely agree with everything there, and add to it that they have overlooked the additional strain on our supposedly beloved union. It has clearly strengthened sentiment in Scotland towards independence, and the effect on both parts of the island of Ireland remains to be seen, but lets just say it wont have done the cause of reunification any harm.

1
 Ian W 24 Nov 2020
In reply to ecrinscollective:

> Sorry a bit off topic but the bit about full time work isn't really true:

> Most alpine areas are very very seasonal, I live near Briancon which is reliant on tourism, but the reality is that it is only a few months a year, early July and August and then the ski season, but again really only the Christmas, half terms and Easter depending when it fall's. outside these times its dead, a lot of business shut or do massively reduced hours there just isn't the demand. and this is the same at a lot of alpine areas.

> And that is an issue, unless your are in a position to be able to make a living in two seasons, that tends to be the owners of businesses rather than the staff, skilled worked such as ski instructors or having a skill to use out of season such as building or all three, but its definitely not full time work, which makes it very hard to commit to moving here. Hence its normal for tourist stuff to be staffed by younger people who are happier to do a season or two before they get a job to pay the mortgage etc. Its not about the money, its been legal in France for a while that any staff you have must be paid the minimum french wage, this was brought in to stop the issues of young people doing it for digs and a ski pass, so theses jobs are open to the French, but the long term prospects are not that great, so they don't take them up.

> Paying more for a ski holiday wont change this unless year round work can be provided, so these jobs will be taken by the young, just thanks to Brexit not the UK young.

I didnt realise how variable the seasons were for employment even for locals. i was aware that it wasnt exactly a "career"; the chap that was the warden on the campsite we used to stay at in the summer was also one of the lift engineers and pisteurs during the winter, and also did a bit of building work etc etc but that will surely only reinforce the lack of opportunities for anyone from outside the area.

In reply to ClimberEd:

> Imaginary to you. Not to those who have got what they wanted.

They have only seen a small glimpse of what they voted for. They are going to learn the hard way the meaning of the expression: "Be careful what you wish for".

4
In reply to Ian W:

Your right it can be tough, It's bit like a lot of tourist dependent areas even in the UK, quite a lot of younger locals will move out the area to find full time work, and for people looking to move to that areas it can be very tough even more so for young people looking to start their working lives.

 yorkshireman 25 Nov 2020
In reply to ecrinscollective:

Also remember that for France especially, most Brits only see the mega resorts of Espace Killy, PdS and 3 Valleys where literally bus-loads of seasonal workers are brought in for the seasons and large companies own many of the businesses. However France has over 300 ski areas, many of them small, council-owned operations that are based out of villages and employ locals.

I used to live in La Jarjatte which is one of these - a dozen KMs of pistes plus some XC tracks and lowish altitude used mainly by locals. Everyone I knew that worked on the lifts did so as a seasonal second job and were lumberjacks, masons, tilers in the off-season. The local retired farmer owned and ran the ski rental out of his old barn. In fact having 3-4 casual jobs throughout the year is quite normal in this part of the world.

 DaveHK 25 Nov 2020
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Nice to have a Brexit thread again, takes me back to the good old days pre Covid.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Not just ski instructors, Guides, IMLs, in fact many. I haven't managed to find any numbers but there must be hundreds of thousands of UK residents who work in the EEA who will be adversley effected.

 HeMa 26 Nov 2020
In reply to Rich W Parker:

Provided the (climbing) guides are fully UIGMA certified, I'm sure they'll be able to work in the EU.

After all, it is also possible for American Guides to operate in EU.

But it'll most likely require a bit more effort.

1
Roadrunner6 26 Nov 2020
In reply to HeMa:

Will it?

Won't there be restrictions on how long they can reside there? 

It's a shit show. We knew it would be. Anyone who has worked in europe knew how easy it was pre brexit.

Re chalet workers I'm sure there will be possibilities but it'll be cheaper and easier to use youth from other countries. It's why we voted for it, to stop people coming in taking our jobs, so it just will not be easy for Brits to go and get work.

 Doug 26 Nov 2020
In reply to HeMa:

For UIGMA guides there are established agreements to recognise qualifications from elsewhere (which took many years to negociate) but its much more difficult for eg those leading walks or for skiing. In theory a British qualification should (at the moment) be valid in France but getting it recognised involves a lot of paperwork & is only really worthwhile if you intend spending a lot of time there. And that's before looking at work permits, residency permits etc - none of which were needed for Brits in the EU before.

 Webster 26 Nov 2020
In reply to Enty:

Then if no locals are taking the jobs, then they will be in demand and brits will have as much right as anybody else in the world to get a viza and apply for them. plenty of Ozzy/Kiwi/north american seasonaires all over the alps who arent held back by a lack of EU citizenship. sure this first season is gonna be difficult, but covid has largely put pay to that anyway. If the resorts need bitish workers to run, then they will find ways to legally make that happen.

Brexit doesnt mean that no brit can ever work in the EU again! it just means that we will have to jump through a few more hoops, hardly the apocalipse

(Chamonix resident and year round seasonaire talking here)

7
 Rob Exile Ward 26 Nov 2020
In reply to Webster:

Let's hope your optimism is justified. I know the French are a pragmatic lot, especially when it's in their interest, let's hope their resentment at the disruption and challenges we've unilaterally created doesn't spill over and affect work opportunities.

You couldn't blame them if it did.

1
 Only a Crag 26 Nov 2020
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

The upside is the large amount of fruit and veg picking jobs available later in the year for our youth to have a bash at. Just picking beets in Grimsby is much less appealing unfortunately 

1
 yorkshireman 26 Nov 2020
In reply to Webster:

> Then if no locals are taking the jobs, then they will be in demand and brits will have as much right as anybody else in the world to get a viza and apply for them.

They will have a lot less right than the residents of the other 26 EU countries that can simply waltz up and take a job like a local could, live there for as long they want etc.

If you were an employer and you had the choice between hiring a Danish seasonal worker, with no paperwork, or a Brit, who you effectively might have to sponsor, what would you do? There's nothing special about us Brits, we just think there is which is partly what got us into this mess.

It's this deliberate creation of a disadvantage for no obvious benefit that still grates after all these years.

1
 Doug 26 Nov 2020
In reply to yorkshireman:

I still remember the paperwork needed to employ a Slovak not long after Slovakia joined the EU but while there were still controls. That was for someone with a PhD & good French for a one year contract. By contrast we hired a Dane a couple of months later & no paperwork.

Yes Brits will still be able to work in the EU but there will be obstacles

In reply to HeMa and Doug:

Sadly I don’t think it will be that straightforward for British IFMGA  Guides. They’ll certainly be able to work if they reside in the EU, but if they live in the UK, and work seasonally in the Alps it doesn’t look certain or straightforward. This is the state of affairs for a great many BMG members.

Tom

(Aspirant Guide)

 HeMa 26 Nov 2020
In reply to Tom Ripley:

No different than for a Canadian or US guide. Which you do see working in the alps. 
 

naturally an EU bergfuhrer will find less Red tape.

But that is the point of EU and free mobility of work force. You either are part of the club, or you’re not. With Brexit, obviously UK decided not to be part of the club. 
 

n.b. For ski instructers, this is different as there is not really a universal level. So you often need to get certified at the given country. And this is True even for a different EU country citizen. 

1
 off-duty 26 Nov 2020
In reply to Webster:

> Then if no locals are taking the jobs, then they will be in demand and brits will have as much right as anybody else in the world to get a viza and apply for them. plenty of Ozzy/Kiwi/north american seasonaires all over the alps who arent held back by a lack of EU citizenship. sure this first season is gonna be difficult, but covid has largely put pay to that anyway. If the resorts need bitish workers to run, then they will find ways to legally make that happen.

> Brexit doesnt mean that no brit can ever work in the EU again! it just means that we will have to jump through a few more hoops, hardly the apocalipse

> (Chamonix resident and year round seasonaire talking here)

Whilst I agree with the general sentiment - it might not be THAT sh1t. My experience of alpine resorts is that the Oz/Kiwi seasonaires typically were exploiting owning an EU passport via parents/grandparents or were working on the black.

And the French, in particular, have previously been more concerned about ensuring that the incumbents - ski schools, EU citizens, local businesses had no illegal competition, than about whether the resort as a whole benefited.  Definitely a cutting off nose scenario....

In reply to HeMa:

> No different than for a Canadian or US guide. Which you do see working in the alps. 

 

I think the vast majority of US Guides you see working in the Alps are resident. 

> But that is the point of EU and free mobility of work force. You either are part of the club, or you’re not. With Brexit, obviously UK decided not to be part of the club. 

I just don’t really understand why how I choose to make my livelihood (as long as it’s not pedalling Crystal meth to kids, or contract killing) is the business of any government, and that right to work can be revoked on the result of a poll, one summer’s day 4.5 years ago.

1
mysterion 26 Nov 2020
In reply to Tom Ripley:

> I just don’t really understand why how I choose to make my livelihood (as long as it’s not pedalling Crystal meth to kids, or contract killing) is the business of any government, and that right to work can be revoked on the result of a poll, one summer’s day 4.5 years ago.

Yes, we need to hold the French government responsible.

1
In reply to Webster:

> plenty of Ozzy/Kiwi/north american seasonaires all over the alps who arent held back by a lack of EU citizenship.

My two winters in Chamonix were a long time ago so possibly not relevant but when /I was there I knew quite a few Ozzy/Kiwi/north american seasonaires but I don't remember any of them working whereas all the Brits and French I knew worked.

As a matter of interest how are your work circumstances going to change? If you are there already will contracts just roll over?

In reply to HeMa:

> Provided the (climbing) guides are fully UIGMA certified, I'm sure they'll be able to work in the EU.

Aren't you mixing up the governing body recognising equivalent qualifications with the right to work? UIGMA have no control over work visas

 freeheel47 26 Nov 2020
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Hven't read the thread so sorry if this is repetition

It isn't just Brexit this year- lots of places won't open (menaing countries) for ages.  Last season ended mid March. THi sseason won't ope til mid Jan (as it is).  What will happen if there is a spike in late winter / early spring and all the alpine hospitals are full- with no room at the Inns is another question.  If all the ICU / general medical beds in Savioe / Haut Savoie and to Lyon are full what will they do?

p.s. my kids will be fine- because like Nigel garage's kids and Nigel Lawson and all the other brexiteer fundraisers they have EU passports / residency anyway (wife's mother Irish). It is just e that is f*cked

 HeMa 26 Nov 2020
In reply to Tyler:

Nope. You need to be cerified to work. Do AGMA or UIGMA. Getting a work permit is another thing. 
 

but without being certified, you’ll not get the permit. 

1
In reply to HeMa:

Exactly and that was the case pre-Brexit so I'm not sure why you are "sure they [guides] will be able to work in the EU" when other professionals with recognised qualifications will not.

 Webster 26 Nov 2020
In reply to Tyler:

personally for me i cant do my job any more (as it stands) after brexit because of the swiss, not the french... i was a transfer driver but the swiss are blocking brits from working as drivers after brexit! i would have had no problems getting a job in another field if it wasnt for covid. The premise was that as long as you had a contract starting before deadline day, then you were good and could continue with your eU rights. that was fine as the season started before the brexit deadline. but now covid has f*cked that up...

i like many others right now will exist in a grey area, i applied for settled status which would have guarenteed my rights back when i had a work contract, which in theory would have given me the right to stay and work for at least 5 years. but now i have no contract, which in theory means that i only have the right to stay for 6 months. so it all depends on if they proccess our aplications based on the information submitted at the time, or if we have to re-apply.

 HeMa 27 Nov 2020
In reply to Tyler:

Because also British guides are UIGMA (same as in EU side). Plus as stated also AGMA is accepted. This certification has Nothing to do with EU and Brexit will not change that. 

5
 yorkshireman 27 Nov 2020
In reply to HeMa:

OK I think this is going round in circles as we all kind of agree. Yes, after Brexit, Brits will be theoretically at the same disadvantage as other non-Europeans. Yes, in theory they can find work if they jump through enough hoops.

I think one point which I haven't seen made is that what this will do is unfairly privilege the wealthy and well-connected over people from poorer backgrounds. Gone are the days when you could pile into a van, go dirtbag camping round the Alps looking for casual work in bars until maybe you found something more established. Instead it will be those that have the family support (connections and money), the time and skills to go through the bureaucratic hurdles that will find the seasonal work.

Again, Brexit, despite being positioned as a populist uprising for the downtrodden in society will mainly benefit the already wealthy.

As for my position, I'm lucky that I've lived in France for over 5 years so have settled status (I can prove 9 years of taxes, mortgage payments etc) automatically and in fact I applied for a 10 year Carte de Sejour last year which is automatically renewable, as a safety measure.

The big problem i do have is worry about my British university qualifications being recognised if I move jobs (I'm office-based, salaried). The French are sticklers for what you did at school 25 years ago rather than what you did in your career 5 years ago - again - I'll manage, and I'm sure something will be worked out, but there are many others at the early stage of their careers who might not be able to work in Europe - therefore limiting choices and opportunities. And I just can't see an upside.

1
In reply to HeMa:

What makes you such an expert on this subject?

For British Guides who don’t live in the Alps it is going to be very difficult to work there on a seasonal basis, after the end of the transition period.

This is nothing to for with being a member of the IFMGA, and everything to do with freedom of movement.

 Doug 27 Nov 2020
In reply to Tom Ripley:

I suspect that even if you are resident & able to work in eg France, you'll find it difficult to work in another EU country, although, as with so much brexit related stuff, its not clear. I assume you're a member of the BMG, what advice have they been giving to members ?

Post edited at 09:38
 Ian W 27 Nov 2020
In reply to Doug:

> I suspect that even if you are resident & able to work in eg France, you'll find it difficult to work in another EU country, although, as with so much brexit related studd, its not clear. I assume you're a member of the BMG, what advice have they been giving to members ?

Yes, as i understand it you need citizenship of an EU country in order to be able to work without hindrance across the EU. Residency in eg France just gives you the right to reside there, and nowhere else; the rules for residency varies from country to country....

 HeMa 27 Nov 2020
In reply to Tom Ripley:

Simple rules and laws. 
 

Is it as easy as before. Is it doable, Yes but more Red tape. As with any non EU/EC Person wishing to work in said commerce area. You need to apply a working permit. Is it a Major PITA, Yes. But so it goes. 
 

And guess What, If a French guide wishes to guide a client in Ben Nevis, the have similar hoops to jump through. 
 

I do know a few AGMA guides that are not residents/settled status, yet they still manage to guide in the Alps. So it is certainly possible. Easy, Most likely not but still possible. 

5
In reply to Webster:

I hope things work out or at the very least you've got plenty of climbing and skiing in beforehand

 off-duty 27 Nov 2020
In reply to HeMa:

> Simple rules and laws. 

> Is it as easy as before. Is it doable, Yes but more Red tape. As with any non EU/EC Person wishing to work in said commerce area. You need to apply a working permit. Is it a Major PITA, Yes. But so it goes. 

> And guess What, If a French guide wishes to guide a client in Ben Nevis, the have similar hoops to jump through. 

> I do know a few AGMA guides that are not residents/settled status, yet they still manage to guide in the Alps. So it is certainly possible. Easy, Most likely not but still possible. 

Worth pointing out that in the UK a foreign guide leading clients is not going to be stopped and checked by the police - unlike what is not uncommon in French ski resorts.

Roadrunner6 27 Nov 2020
In reply to HeMa:

But that's just a qualification. It doesn't provide any immigration right. We've left the EU to stop people coming in, to make it harder for people to come to the UK and get jobs. How can you argue that won't also be the case for Brits going to continental europe.

 HeMa 27 Nov 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

I ain't.

As I have pointed out numeours times. It will be harder, but possible. There are US and Canadian guides working in Yurp. They were never part of EU, but it is still possible. Is it more work than prior to Brexit, yes as there's a bunch or red tape. But it is still possible.

How hard, that depends on how UK makes it possible for foreigners to work there. If hard, then expect the same treatment. If easy, then again you get what you give.

There has always been non EU workers in the EU, Brexit doesn't change that fact (e.g Cloudberry pickers from Thailand).

1
Roadrunner6 27 Nov 2020
In reply to HeMa:

I think you'd be surprised how many have EU passports they exploit.

There is of course, but I've moved to NZ and the US, and then Germany. It's not even comparable. It's massively different on terms of duration it takes, costs etc. Even getting a US J1 Visa cost money, took a trip to London and took months. In comparison I drove to Germany and started work a day later. The cost for low paid jobs is prohibitive.

We're seeing it up in Aberdeenshire where my parents live. Caravans full of polish workers are gone. They could apply for visas or just work in another country.. and it's not just immigration, it's then access to things like healthcare. They are better protected in the EU. Locals didn't show up and so fruit rotted. 'we want our jobs back' and then nobody wants to work or farmers have to pay them more and that cost is passed on. This is their local farm at the back of the house. It has been a disaster and will only get worse with the US trade deals hitting food standards in the agriculture sector.

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/news/local/north-east-farm-loses-350000-as-fruit-left-to-rot-due-to-picker-shortage/

The whole point of brexit was to make it prohibitively difficult for foreigners to work here.

Post edited at 13:19
 HeMa 27 Nov 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Well, like I mentioned above, the few US guides I know do not have resident status nor EU passport, and still manage to work here (or rather in the alps).

And yes, if yer not part of the club, things will be harder, more costly and generally a PITA.

But I need to remind you (or rather Tom), that it wasn't the government that decided to do Brexit. It was your fellow countryman (ie. direct democracy). Sucks, but so it goes.

1
 Moondancer 27 Nov 2020
In reply to off-duty:

In terms of seasonaires, let's not forget that young-ish people from Australia/NZ/Canada can apply for a working holiday visa in various European countries which allows them to spend 1 or 2 years in Europe doing casual jobs, in the same way that Brits and other Europeans can go to those countries for a gap year. Unless the UK sets up a similar reciprocal scheme with other European countries, it will actually be easier for Australians or Canadians to work a winter season or two in Europe than it will be for Brits. 

 jkarran 27 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> It seems strange that me, a Brexiteer, is looking out for french workers while the EUers are adopting a British first approach.

It is and you weren't 4 years ago. Now you're so far down the rabbit hole, to stubborn and proud to climb back out you'll cling to any old crap no matter how ridiculous to justify this unmitigated disaster to yourself and others.

I have a lot of respect for those who've reassessed in the years since as 'project fear' became project reality then disappeared in the rear view mirror once the thieves and loons sized power.

Jk

Post edited at 13:32
2
baron 27 Nov 2020
In reply to jkarran:

> It is and you weren't 4 years ago. Now you're so far down the rabbit hole, to stubborn and proud to climb back out you'll cling to any old crap no matter how ridiculous to justify this unmitigated disaster to yourself and others.

> I have a lot of respect for those who've reassessed in the years since as 'project fear' became project reality then disappeared in the rear view mirror once the thieves and loons sized power.

> Jk

It’s not like you to be all doom and gloom.

4
In reply to HeMa:

Hopefully. American Guides in France generally seem to adopt residency and tax paying status in order to work there. The chat is that’s it’s difficult for them. For those of us living in the UK but working periodically in the Alps it may be more challenging. 

 jkarran 27 Nov 2020
In reply to baron:

> It’s not like you to be all doom and gloom.

So the remaining upside* of brexit is making Brits unemployed so rEU youngsters can have their jobs. Bravo. 

*until someone scrapes through this particular barrel bottom to discover and gorge on the shite it's sat in.

If I were better read I'd have an Orwell quote to hand by way of reply but I'm not and I don't. Wake me up when it's over.

Jk

 off-duty 27 Nov 2020
In reply to Moondancer:

That's true I'd forgotten about those working visas.

Be interesting to know if the UK equivalent with the US and NZ/Australia are bilateral or part of the EU.

 Sam Mayfield 29 Nov 2020
In reply to Enty:

Same sad story down here with my long term climbers in vans, or my longer working "oranges"  so ducking sad.

Sam Orange 

In reply to Davidlees215:

> I worked in a French hotel in the Alps in 2002-3 and earnt French minimum wage. There were some deductions for accomodation, food and lift pass but even with these I still earnt well over €1,000 a month after tax. I was always confused about how British firms sent people out to work there and seemed to get away with paying them a couple of hundred quid a month and how that fit in with French or eu law.

Probably fitted with EU law in the same way our agricultural, particularly fruit picking, labour does. Plenty of people are paid a pittance to do that and denied the basic rights. The old trope of "British people are lazy and can't hack it" was always just a polite way of saying "British people won't accept deprivation of their human rights in Britain", it's blatantly untrue considering the back breaking work undertaken by a predominantly British labour force in hill farms or agri-tourism in Australia. It's the real reason fruit farmers lobby so hard against Brexit, they will be mighty upset when they have to give their employees true parity and can't slip their workers under the radar of the regulatory authorities.

As your point suggests, British people will give up their rights to fair treatment for a price. Access to a full ski season is one that is acceptable to some since it simply isn't an option they could afford any other way. European labour on British farms similarly forfeits local equality for material benefit.

1
 Kalna_kaza 01 Dec 2020
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

This upcoming season aside, as it's clearly not going to be a normal one, I think there will be a quick adjustment by winter 2021/2022. The lack of Brits working in chalets will do one of two things:

1) Wage increases to get locals or other EU workers - as already pointed out this may be hard to do.

Or 

2) A temporary worker visa for seasonaires is used and becomes relatively easy to obtain.

Money talks and large resorts are going to be pushing for staff one way or another. Some British ski holiday operators might have to cover the extra cost of temporary work visas but ski holidays are rarely cheap to start with.

 Mr Lopez 01 Dec 2020
In reply to Kalna_kaza:

3) The companies that were supplying British seasonaires will turn their eyes East and South and recruit workers from Poland, Romania or Spain instead

 Doug 01 Dec 2020
In reply to Mr Lopez:

I've also met several Slovaks working in small French alpine hotels over the last couple of years


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