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Might be a silly question but if you are out on a sport route and you can't complete it -- let's say you get 3 quarters of the way up and can't work out the next move -- is it really a case of leaving your last quickdraw hanging up there? I'm talking about routes where you can't set up an anchor at the top and ab down of course and lets assume that your climbing partner can't do the route either. Especially on steeper overhanging routes where if you fall off you are left hanging away from the rock. Pretty much means you have to onsight everything unless you don't mind losing gear doesn't it? Surly there is a more cost effective way of trying harder routes?
Any advice appreciated as this is kind of stopping me from trying harder routes.
Cheers,
Steve
Any advice appreciated as this is kind of stopping me from trying harder routes.
Cheers,
Steve
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):
Maillions are your friends.
Unless it's a staple or eco bolt, then just thread it and lower off.
Maillions are your friends.
Unless it's a staple or eco bolt, then just thread it and lower off.
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):
Or try something similar on a neighbouring line and traverse to the belay
Or try something similar on a neighbouring line and traverse to the belay
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):
Worth learning a set of dirty sport climbing tactics for dogging to the top/lowering off a sport route that's too hard for you.
keep a 6mm maillon on the back of your harness - then it's always there if you need it.
By clipping in directly to a bolt, you can often walk your feet up and lever up high enough to get the next draw in. Then yard up on that and continue the process.
having quickdraws with fat tapes makes it easier to hang on to them while you dangle/clip the rope, yard up on them, etc. It's surprising how many moves or sequences which are too hard to climb clean, will work ok for getting the next draw in and grabbing it.
As Morgs says, clipsticks are awesome, they make all of that a lot easier and you know that getting to the top is always an option as you can always clip in to the nearest bolt, lower down a bight of rope and haul up the clipstick.
Having the confidence that even if the worst comes to the worst, you can still dog/frig/clipstick your way to the anchor to get your gear back, gives you much more confidence at trying stuff above your grade (which is the point of sport climbing, really)
Worth learning a set of dirty sport climbing tactics for dogging to the top/lowering off a sport route that's too hard for you.
keep a 6mm maillon on the back of your harness - then it's always there if you need it.
By clipping in directly to a bolt, you can often walk your feet up and lever up high enough to get the next draw in. Then yard up on that and continue the process.
having quickdraws with fat tapes makes it easier to hang on to them while you dangle/clip the rope, yard up on them, etc. It's surprising how many moves or sequences which are too hard to climb clean, will work ok for getting the next draw in and grabbing it.
As Morgs says, clipsticks are awesome, they make all of that a lot easier and you know that getting to the top is always an option as you can always clip in to the nearest bolt, lower down a bight of rope and haul up the clipstick.
Having the confidence that even if the worst comes to the worst, you can still dog/frig/clipstick your way to the anchor to get your gear back, gives you much more confidence at trying stuff above your grade (which is the point of sport climbing, really)
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):
If you are left hanging away from the rock, you have a couple of options to get back on the rock. 1st is to swing yourself back in until you can grab rock or rope and start climbing. 2nd is to prussick back up.
There is also a trick to getting back up to your last draw if you are hanging free, which involves grabing the rope at arms length above your head, pulling up on the rope and quickly kicking your legs out in front of you as you let go of the rope. If your mate is ready and takes in the slack at the same time, you can 'jump' your way higher and reach the last draw. Hard to explain, but effective with a bit of practice. You could also hand over hand up the rope to the draw but be aware of the potential fall.
Lots of other tricks in order to get the rope up a route - clip stick clipped to harness as you climb, which you can use to clip every bolt on a route (hanging from the bolt beneath), not pretty but it works. Also find an easy alternative route in order to get to the anchors and a TR on it, or abseil from the top of the crag to the anchors, etc.
If you are left hanging away from the rock, you have a couple of options to get back on the rock. 1st is to swing yourself back in until you can grab rock or rope and start climbing. 2nd is to prussick back up.
There is also a trick to getting back up to your last draw if you are hanging free, which involves grabing the rope at arms length above your head, pulling up on the rope and quickly kicking your legs out in front of you as you let go of the rope. If your mate is ready and takes in the slack at the same time, you can 'jump' your way higher and reach the last draw. Hard to explain, but effective with a bit of practice. You could also hand over hand up the rope to the draw but be aware of the potential fall.
Lots of other tricks in order to get the rope up a route - clip stick clipped to harness as you climb, which you can use to clip every bolt on a route (hanging from the bolt beneath), not pretty but it works. Also find an easy alternative route in order to get to the anchors and a TR on it, or abseil from the top of the crag to the anchors, etc.
In reply to Phil79:
He doesn't need to take in slack at the same time. Its far easier if he jumps and takes in first (can be done with any belay plate but probably easiest with a gri-gri) so that he is hanging in mid air off the locked off belay plate. Then as soon as you pull up and let go he is guaranteed to drop under gravity since you (his counterweight) is for a moment not there.
By far the easiest way to do that particular manoevre, takes out any timing issues.
AJM
> There is also a trick to getting back up to your last draw if you are hanging free, which involves grabing the rope at arms length above your head, pulling up on the rope and quickly kicking your legs out in front of you as you let go of the rope. If your mate is ready and takes in the slack at the same time, you can 'jump' your way higher and reach the last draw. Hard to explain, but effective with a bit of practice. You could also hand over hand up the rope to the draw but be aware of the potential fall.
He doesn't need to take in slack at the same time. Its far easier if he jumps and takes in first (can be done with any belay plate but probably easiest with a gri-gri) so that he is hanging in mid air off the locked off belay plate. Then as soon as you pull up and let go he is guaranteed to drop under gravity since you (his counterweight) is for a moment not there.
By far the easiest way to do that particular manoevre, takes out any timing issues.
AJM
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):
Excellent thank you for the responses, they certainly address my concerns. I knew there had to be a better way!
Excellent thank you for the responses, they certainly address my concerns. I knew there had to be a better way!
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz): In Adrian Berry's Sport Climbing + book, by Rockfax, it illustrates a technique for retreat called the "Magic Sling Trick" which suggests that even on a sharp edged hanger (the most common ones), you can rig a system, using a sling through the bolt, that allows you to abseil down, and pull the rope in order to pull the sling back through the bolt.
I'm sure there was an on-line version of this on Planet Fear, and I wouldn't have a problem trying it on the rounded edged bolts (although I'd simply thread the rope through the bolt in this case), but the article did suggest that loading the sling on a sharp edged hanger was ok...
I'm sure there was an on-line version of this on Planet Fear, and I wouldn't have a problem trying it on the rounded edged bolts (although I'd simply thread the rope through the bolt in this case), but the article did suggest that loading the sling on a sharp edged hanger was ok...
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz): If you can reach your last bolt you can thread a sling through the bolt, knot the end of the rope to one of the loops of the sling that come out on either side, run the rope through both loops of the sling, and ab on that making sure the 'loop' of rope is long enough to reach the ground. When you reach the bottom pull the rope from the sling side, then pull the free side of the rope and you get the sling back. Just make sure your rope is long enough, it'll have to be 3 times the height you're retreating from, so a 60m rope let's you retreat from 20m high. If you need to do a longer one stop at a lower bolt and repeat.
In reply to Mr Lopez: That's the one.
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):
Steve I always try to downclimb taking draws out on the way. This may involve some controlled falls between bolts. As for steepness I have never found this to have defeated a downclimb retreat as you can nearly always gain swing. It is the most honourable way to fail on a route and psyches you to go back and send it!
The GA
> Might be a silly question but if you are out on a sport route and you can't complete it -- let's say you get 3 quarters of the way up and can't work out the next move -- is it really a case of leaving your last quickdraw hanging up there? I'm talking about routes where you can't set up an anchor at the top and ab down of course and lets assume that your climbing partner can't do the route either. Especially on steeper overhanging routes where if you fall off you are left hanging away from the rock. Pretty much means you have to onsight everything unless you don't mind losing gear doesn't it? Surly there is a more cost effective way of trying harder routes?
>
>
Steve I always try to downclimb taking draws out on the way. This may involve some controlled falls between bolts. As for steepness I have never found this to have defeated a downclimb retreat as you can nearly always gain swing. It is the most honourable way to fail on a route and psyches you to go back and send it!
The GA
In reply to Mr Lopez and Ken Applegate:
That sounds interesting, not heard of that one before. Certainly sounds useful though as you don't leave anything behind which is always a bonus. So is the general consensus that it's ok to load a sling in this way? Obviously it would depend on the bolt's condition really and I'm guessing it's better to use a thicker sling rather than a thinner one.
Just ordered a couple of 6mm Maillons as a back up too.
That sounds interesting, not heard of that one before. Certainly sounds useful though as you don't leave anything behind which is always a bonus. So is the general consensus that it's ok to load a sling in this way? Obviously it would depend on the bolt's condition really and I'm guessing it's better to use a thicker sling rather than a thinner one.
Just ordered a couple of 6mm Maillons as a back up too.
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz): Slings are fine on bolts. Use a knotted piece of wide tape for peace of mind. Make sure the knotted rope is in the same side as the sling's knot though, otherwise neither the sling nor the rope will will be come down!
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):
Here is the above mentioned article on Planet Fear, incase others would like to read too.
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Retreating_Off_a_Sport_Route_275.html
Here is the above mentioned article on Planet Fear, incase others would like to read too.
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Retreating_Off_a_Sport_Route_275.html
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz): You most definately don't need to leave any gear behind. You can rig your rope and a sling so that you can abb down and then pull the rope and the sling out and leaving no gear left behind, I've used this several times when biting off more than I can chew.
You have to get it right though or you will just end up with your rope stuck up on the route, and the rope has to go up to the hanger down to the ground and back to the hanger again so make sure it is long enough or you need to just drop down a hanger or 2 to get right down.
Practice it in the garage or at a ground level hanger until you get it right every time.
I can't link you to it as I have no idea what it's called, I'm suprised someone hasn't already pointed you in that direction.
You have to get it right though or you will just end up with your rope stuck up on the route, and the rope has to go up to the hanger down to the ground and back to the hanger again so make sure it is long enough or you need to just drop down a hanger or 2 to get right down.
Practice it in the garage or at a ground level hanger until you get it right every time.
I can't link you to it as I have no idea what it's called, I'm suprised someone hasn't already pointed you in that direction.
In reply to chickenpox: Oh, or maybe they have!!
But surely the sling you abb off (and it's spectra in the photos) has had up to 20m of rope pulled through whilst it's static?
Would you re-use that sling?
Would you re-use that sling?
In reply to Jim Lancs: My thoughts exactly, It would be cheaper to lower off from a Krab, than replace the sling. I wouldn't want to reuse having pulled 20mts of rope through it.
In reply to Jim Lancs:
You can use krabs in the set up to avoid this, and also using nylon slings helps.
You can use krabs in the set up to avoid this, and also using nylon slings helps.
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):
Here's a different solution....
>let's say you get 3 quarters of the way up and can't work out the next move
Keep trying, try again and try several counter-intuitive variations on the sequence you think ou are supposed to do and get used to falling off a lot. That's why the bolts are there. You mention steeper overhanging routes so you're not even going to hit anything when falling off.
If you still can't do it, lower off, untie and have a breather, take a look at the route from a different angle, chill-out and then have another go.
Let your partner have a go and see if they can figure it out.
If you're still stuck, the easiest way off is up using a clip stick.
All this talk of maillons and sling retreats is really useful as a safety measure if you are really in a spot of bother or on a multi-pitch sport route.
I see a lot of people abandoning single pitch sport routes because 'they can't figure out the move' when it's quite clear in 9 out of 10 cases that they are frightened of commiting to a move and taking a lob.
Here's a different solution....
>let's say you get 3 quarters of the way up and can't work out the next move
Keep trying, try again and try several counter-intuitive variations on the sequence you think ou are supposed to do and get used to falling off a lot. That's why the bolts are there. You mention steeper overhanging routes so you're not even going to hit anything when falling off.
If you still can't do it, lower off, untie and have a breather, take a look at the route from a different angle, chill-out and then have another go.
Let your partner have a go and see if they can figure it out.
If you're still stuck, the easiest way off is up using a clip stick.
All this talk of maillons and sling retreats is really useful as a safety measure if you are really in a spot of bother or on a multi-pitch sport route.
I see a lot of people abandoning single pitch sport routes because 'they can't figure out the move' when it's quite clear in 9 out of 10 cases that they are frightened of commiting to a move and taking a lob.
In reply to Anonymous:
You just need to be gentle, and even if you are not, the slings can take a lot of abuse, and is very easy to see if they are damaged.
Plenty of mountain routes where you abseil on in-situ slings without crabs or maillons that have been there for quite a while and have been abseiled of regularly, and are still in good condition.
> (In reply to Jim Lancs) My thoughts exactly, It would be cheaper to lower off from a Krab, than replace the sling. I wouldn't want to reuse having pulled 20mts of rope through it.
You just need to be gentle, and even if you are not, the slings can take a lot of abuse, and is very easy to see if they are damaged.
Plenty of mountain routes where you abseil on in-situ slings without crabs or maillons that have been there for quite a while and have been abseiled of regularly, and are still in good condition.
In reply to Jim Lancs:
Personally yes, I would and have. 20 mtrs of rope, what is the big deal here, they are made to take quite a battering, pulling rope through one is not something I would consider a problem. Is there a reason why this should be an issue?
> But surely the sling you abb off (and it's spectra in the photos) has had up to 20m of rope pulled through whilst it's static?
>
> Would you re-use that sling?
>
> Would you re-use that sling?
Personally yes, I would and have. 20 mtrs of rope, what is the big deal here, they are made to take quite a battering, pulling rope through one is not something I would consider a problem. Is there a reason why this should be an issue?
In reply to Mr Lopez:
I agree with you but must say I'm a bit more wary having had a piece of brand new 6mm ab tat fail after pulling through only about 40m of rope (pulling quite hard due to drag, I grant you) to retrieve it.
Be aware of what you're abseiling off people!
I agree with you but must say I'm a bit more wary having had a piece of brand new 6mm ab tat fail after pulling through only about 40m of rope (pulling quite hard due to drag, I grant you) to retrieve it.
Be aware of what you're abseiling off people!
In reply to Anonymous: I'm aware of that but didn't think this is what you would be talking about.
I don't think this will create enough friction to damage a sling, the length of the rope and the speed that you pull it through is all controlled by the climber, no one is forcing anyone to rush anything and so if you damage the sling it is the climbers fault, no need for it at all!!
I don't think this will create enough friction to damage a sling, the length of the rope and the speed that you pull it through is all controlled by the climber, no one is forcing anyone to rush anything and so if you damage the sling it is the climbers fault, no need for it at all!!
In reply to chickenpox: If the rope has anykind of friction, ie it engages the rock on the way down you are likely to need to pull fairly firmly.
Biggest concerns are at an abstation 50mts up with a fair bit of natural fritction in the system. Then you have to pull fairly hard and quickly to ensure you retrieve the ropes.
Chances are it would be fine, I just wouldn't do it with a sling I intended to use again.
Better and cheaper to use some 5mm cord and use it in the Garden when you have done.
Pull a rope and have a look at the sling yourself no matter how much in control you are, I bet it shows signs of friction abrasion.
Biggest concerns are at an abstation 50mts up with a fair bit of natural fritction in the system. Then you have to pull fairly hard and quickly to ensure you retrieve the ropes.
Chances are it would be fine, I just wouldn't do it with a sling I intended to use again.
Better and cheaper to use some 5mm cord and use it in the Garden when you have done.
Pull a rope and have a look at the sling yourself no matter how much in control you are, I bet it shows signs of friction abrasion.
In reply to Anonymous: I've used it for years and never been an issue the only part you need to flick it hard is at the end when it come through on itself, and I can't see the problem about the rope rubbing the rock, it is easy to sort out, stand back a bit. I'm not seeing the problem here. Seems some are making problems where they needn't exist. Good idea to warn people about the friction, but tell them how to avoid it rather than just chuck perfectly good slings away. Mind you, I'm not responsible for anyone decking out from a knackered old sling
If you pull it hard and fast then it is your fault if you f*ck it up. If you know this before hand and still do it then it is a little silly really.
If you pull it hard and fast then it is your fault if you f*ck it up. If you know this before hand and still do it then it is a little silly really.
In reply to chickenpox:
Are you guys nutty? Abbing off a sling?
Control the descent? What if something goes wrong? Where is your redundancy in the system?
Get some abseil tat and maillons.
Less than a fiver and you walk away with your life.
Are you guys nutty? Abbing off a sling?
Control the descent? What if something goes wrong? Where is your redundancy in the system?
Get some abseil tat and maillons.
Less than a fiver and you walk away with your life.
In reply to Grimpeur ancien:> Steve I always try to downclimb taking draws out on the way. This may involve some controlled falls between bolts. As for steepness I have never found this to have defeated a downclimb retreat as you can nearly always gain swing. It is the most honourable way to fail on a route and psyches you to go back and send it!
Ridiculous nonsense. There is no honour in sport climbing.
Ridiculous nonsense. There is no honour in sport climbing.
In reply to Simon Lee:
There is no honour amonst thieves, sport climbers are much more honest. Honest Guv!
Andy F
> > Ridiculous nonsense. There is no honour in sport climbing.
There is no honour amonst thieves, sport climbers are much more honest. Honest Guv!
Andy F
In reply to NorthernRock: What do you mean nutty? Why on earth would it be nutty?
In reply to NorthernRock:> Are you guys nutty? Abbing off a sling?
Abbing off a sling that you have placed and threaded through a bolt hanger is fine - lowering off that sling is potentially fatal - not exactly a knife through butter ..but you get the picture.
>
Abbing off a sling that you have placed and threaded through a bolt hanger is fine - lowering off that sling is potentially fatal - not exactly a knife through butter ..but you get the picture.
In reply to Simon Lee: I get the picture you are trying to create, but I can't see it happening. If you climb on hangers that sharp then they need changing. Any form of abbing is potentially fatal, this is safe if done correctly.
In reply to chickenpox:I get the picture you are trying to create, but I can't see it happening. If you climb on hangers that sharp then they need changing.
No you don't get the picture. Its the rope that cuts through the sling
No you don't get the picture. Its the rope that cuts through the sling
In reply to Simon Lee:
You what??
> (In reply to chickenpox)I get the picture you are trying to create, but I can't see it happening. If you climb on hangers that sharp then they need changing.
>
>
> No you don't get the picture. Its the rope that cuts through the sling
>
>
> No you don't get the picture. Its the rope that cuts through the sling
You what??
In reply to chickenpox:
You take a sewn or tied sling.
Thread it through a bolt hanger.
Thread the rope through the sling.
Abseil off rather than lower off as that might cut through the sling.
You take a sewn or tied sling.
Thread it through a bolt hanger.
Thread the rope through the sling.
Abseil off rather than lower off as that might cut through the sling.
In reply to Simon Lee:
Or on the other hand leave a biner. Safe, quick and certainly not unsightly as it won't stay there very long!
Or on the other hand leave a biner. Safe, quick and certainly not unsightly as it won't stay there very long!
In reply to jon:
>
> I agree - I only got drawn in because NorternRock (mistakenly it turned out) said it was "nutty" to ab off a sling which it isnt. However, older climbers usually have a surplus of bailout biners. Newcomers don't and a thread or sling is cheaper, lighter and can double up as string for your chalk bag.
> I agree - I only got drawn in because NorternRock (mistakenly it turned out) said it was "nutty" to ab off a sling which it isnt. However, older climbers usually have a surplus of bailout biners. Newcomers don't and a thread or sling is cheaper, lighter and can double up as string for your chalk bag.
In reply to Simon Lee:
Yes, I was just trying to encourage the habit in the hope of increasing my rack. Actually, it's probably best to just leave the whole quickdraw...
Yes, I was just trying to encourage the habit in the hope of increasing my rack. Actually, it's probably best to just leave the whole quickdraw...
In reply to NorthernRock:
If you are abseiling off a single bolt the strength of a sling is your least worry.
If you are abseiling off a single bolt the strength of a sling is your least worry.
In reply to Anonymous: Remember we are talking about abbing from half way up steep sport routes, not double rope full alpine descents. So 20m max and rock friction nil.
In reply to Simon Lee:
We are having crossed wires here. I am talking about abbing from a sling. Who mentioned lowering and it isn't possible anyway without leaving the sling behind, and yes totally stupid!!
> (In reply to chickenpox)
>
> You take a sewn or tied sling.
>
> Thread it through a bolt hanger.
>
> Thread the rope through the sling.
>
> Abseil off rather than lower off as that might cut through the sling.
>
> You take a sewn or tied sling.
>
> Thread it through a bolt hanger.
>
> Thread the rope through the sling.
>
> Abseil off rather than lower off as that might cut through the sling.
We are having crossed wires here. I am talking about abbing from a sling. Who mentioned lowering and it isn't possible anyway without leaving the sling behind, and yes totally stupid!!
In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz): 1. buy a clip stick 2. use maillon or krab but DON'T on any crags near the sea, it'll knacker the bolt 3. there is a rope trick, sling through hanger, put krab on side with stitching, thread rope through double, you ab down this, one end of rope onto krab to retrieve aferwards, make sure its the right end of the two, pull through the ab rope, then tug 3rd rope to pull sling out of hanger and catch it to avoid krab damage on impact. this relies on you trusting the bolt and weighting it while you sort rope out. need a diagram or someone to show you really but work it out for yourself near the ground OR see 1. and 2. above. 4. climb route with staples 5. stand in slings to frig your way up (ok only possible occasionally)
In reply to nickcanute: Clear as mud, even worse description than mine!
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