UKC

I'm currently chasing a UK SML, mostly as a qualification so I can get access to other courses and assessments.

I understand the SML is about guiding groups and the experience required needs to be tailored for the course itself. 

However from the criteria that counts as a QMD I would say I have about 10 QMD days thats 5 hours in different areas not repeating routes, also not including scrambles.

Due to location I only get the chance to go lakes/snowdonia about 3 times a year. So when I do go I mostly try get the best out of it and jump on trad, such as grooved arete (tryfan) or tennis shoes etc. 

However I am aware that those days wouldnt count as a QMD, but recently I've been told otherwise that you can log trad routes as a QMD, is this true? And how black and white is it to log a QMDs. From the description of QMD on mountain training scrambling doesnt count, but fell running does? I've also keep hearing how dartmoor can count as a QMD, which I'm convinced it couldnt be.

No you can’t log trad routes as QMDs.

Dartmoor is not in Mountain Training’s “mountainous area” list, but course directors can use their discretion, so a couple of days in Dartmoor could count if they tick plenty of other QMD boxes.

Days out that include a climb may count, if they are part of a genuine QMD, I’d suggest that 5hrs doesn’t include climbing time. Eg. Grooved Arete and down the N Ridge, probably wouldn’t count. Grooved Arete down the S Ridge of Tryfan, over Glyder Fach, Glyder Fawr, Y Garn, probably would.

(I’m an ML provider)

On top of what Jez has stated it is worth pointing out that the QMD requirements are a bare minimum, you should really do enough of the defined activity that there is no quibbling about you having met the minimum requirements as this will make the training a lot more straightforward for you, if you can't it's probably not worth doing the award. 

I feel your pain, as if I had a weekend in the mountains, going for a long walk would be some way down the list of preference. Saying that, you use exactly the same skills to get to say Bowfell to do a route as you would for a walk up Scafell. You use careful planning, navigation, you're out all day, adverse conditions may be encountered, and you're up in the hills. To be honest, if there is any doubt about whether a day would count because you did a climb yet it would count if you just walked up the same peak and back, I would probably just omit the graded climbs from my DLog and consider it a QMD. 

A walk up Great Gable and back is not building any better preparedness for the hills than going and climbing Tophet Wall. 

It really comes down to how much you want to get your summer ML?

When i did my winter ML, I sacrificed Winter Climbing for a couple of years on my winter weekend and trips to Scotland so i could get my QMDs done in a shortest time frame. Sometimes it was hard but it paid off.

Is just walking up and down Scafell a QMD? Walking into and down from Bowfell certainly wouldn't be, regardless of whether you climbed a route or not. As Jez said above, climbed a route on Bowfell as part of a longer round, that might?

This piece has some interesting observations on why days doing other activities in the mountains don't generally count as as ML QMDs.  https://www.shaneohly.com/blog/becoming-a-mountain-leader

Sorry Paul, but I can't agree with that at all - if a long walk in the mountains is some way down the list of preference then maybe you should question your desire to be an ML.

I'm just back from five days working in the Lakes with a group of direct entry Gold DofEers and, despite feeling fit after lots of recent hill days, I've found it quite challenging.

First day involved seven hours of walking with the group teaching micro nav - not a skill you're likely to learn from walking along footpaths into crags imo.

On the second day, after seeing my group off Hellvelyn I needed to stick around on or near the summit for 6.5 hours in case I was needed to help another group who were having epics around Thirlmere. The visibility was 20m and the windchill somewhere around 3 or 4 degrees. Again, not the type of conditions likely to be faced with on a typical rock climbing day.

Day three involved two ascents (one via Gray Crag and the other up The Knott) of High Street - one to see my group and the other to collect the bag from a member of another group who had hurt her knee. Probably 1800m of ascent that day - more than twice that of the approach to Bowfell Buttress for example. 

The fourth was an easy one with just an early morning gallop up Place Fell and back to Glenridding.

I know that not every ML works on DofE expeditions but I would argue that as an ML it is your responsibility to be more comfortable walking for long days in the mountains than your clients. I'd also argue that it's essential to be fit enough to go out looking for clients after you've already done a full hill day.

Maybe I'm doing you a disservice and you already possess such good fitness and experience that the odd top-up gained from walking into Lakeland crags is enough to maintain your skills; I haven't read you profile so I don't know. If that is the case then I apologise for the lecture - but I'd still have to say that that wouldn't be enough preparation for me or, I suspect, most others.

That's an excellent read.

Agreed, especially the part where he admits to what amounts to complacency regarding avalanche conditions. 

Thanks for your experience. I have no desire to get my ML but I know a few people who have got it. I always thought the caveats to QMDs a bit annoying. For example a winter day on the hills not counting towards your summer ML when it qualifies everything and more.  Am I right in thinking that days in ranges outside of Britain don't count either?

“8/ Do days out in the winter count as Quality Mountain Days for Mountain Leader?

Mountain Training’s recognition of whether a day constitutes a QMD or not, is based on whether it satisfies the criteria for a QMD as detailed in the Mountain Leader handbook. 

Our definition does not mention the season. All of the QMD criteria are achievable when snow or ice prevails, so the day can count. That said, the experience you’re gaining and logging is in pursuit of the Mountain Leader qualification, which is all about leading groups in ‘summer’ conditions. Course directors will consider your logged experience when you book on a course but it may be worth consulting the provider concerned before doing so if you are unsure. 

The whole approach to leading people in winter conditions, including the use of specific skills and techniques, is very different, which is why the Winter Mountain Leader qualification exists. If you have not had sufficient quality experiences in summer conditions on mountainous terrain, you may find it harder to make appropriate decisions as a Mountain Leader.”

The FAQs on the MT site are a gold mine of info!

Yes, but I think that ML course providers take a notional account of them when assessing candidates' experience. Jezb is the chap to ask. 

The issue with this attitude to qmds is that if you're arguing the toss over a winter day here or a day out mountain cragging there then you probably don't have enough experience. 40 QMDs is a minimum - amassing far more than that is definitely a good idea. I tend to think the assessment should be a relaxing box ticking exercise, not a challenge.

My assessor said that he made a point of not checking people's logbooks until after he'd spent a day on the hill with them, so he could make his mind up himself and then hopefully the logbook would back up his conclusions.

Up to 50% of your days can be from outside of Britain, as long as terrain etc is comparable