if traversing with a novice (on say something easy like crescent climb on pavey arc) and the second slips on the traverse, what is the best way to rectify the situation if the second is not in contact with the rock???
Good question. I suppose you have to ask - should you be taking a novice on a route where this could happen? Obviously you need to make sure that the traverse is protectable for the second. If they end up in a situation where they are hanging in mid air away from rock you either lower them off and then abb off yourself (if this is possible) or they prussik up. If prussiking is not an option - should you really be putting them in that situation?
Don't know the route in question but another possibility with half-ropes is to use a back-rope - ie one rope through gear at the start of the traverse which you pay out rope on while taking in on the other rope. Obviously this entails leaving gear behind (unless there happens to be a handy natural anchor to use) so depends on retrievability of it afterwards.
But yes otherwise options are lower the climber to a point they can either get back on the route or escape, or have them prusik up the rope, or hoist them (which may or may not be possible and will always be an absolute ball-ache).
Not ideal to have a novice taking big pendulum falls anyway. They won't like it.
The back rope's a good idea actually. I did that myself a few years ago when I was doing a particularly scary traverse as a second. Worked well and no gear got left behind.
I wouldn't take a beginner on a route with pendulum potential if I couldn't lower them to the ground if they came off.
If you do end up in this situation, and I think it is dangerous to have a novice learn to prussik in such, then dropping one rope to them after pulling it through (some concerns here about them untying the right one!), if you are climbing on double ropes, for them to stand in maybe an option and take in on the plate as they stand. This will be a ballache though depending on how much rope is out as they will have to tension the rope/take the stretch out of it. Its probably no more hassle than arranging a hoist though and a pound to a penny if you find yourself in this situation you won't have a pulley with you.
if they are a complete novice then you must be able to do everything yourself, you can't expect them to prussic a line (which is hard work at the best of times)
After communication/information gathering (can they climb out? How far to the over hang? is the line straight and true? can we lower?) and and if I cant lower to the ground and/or they cannot prussic/pull on gear, I would approach this situation like a crevasse rescue and haul the second. however this assumes a few things about the gear and terrain.
I hasten to add that hauling a person can be a lot of hard work and loads of climbers on the internet assume that its easy with a 3:1 and takes 15 mins. knowing how to rig a system is step one of a fair few in efficient rescue/hauling.
its good to be thinking about this stuff but perhaps a training course or a mentor session would a be a good idea for both you and the novice since being able to prussic is one of the key skill in climbing bigger routes (even if they are easy).
I appreciate I may come across as a little old fashioned with this view, but to me this is a question that should be looked up in a book first to get a more comprehensive understanding of basic climbing techniques rather than seeking soundbite style responses to specific situations. I just feel that a comprehensive grounding in climbing techniques is very much required first. (trying hard not to talk about indoor clippers venturing out with too much self belief and a scary absence of knowledge!)
Rock Climbing by Libby Peter illustrates a number of possible solutions to this scenario, but all are complex and may or may not work (dependant on situation). The best solution is not to take a novice onto a traverse, or if you must do so absolutely stitch it with gear to reduce the swing potential.
At least on Crescent Climb your second should not end up hanging in space, but they could definately get bumped about a bit. Go high to belay at the end of it, and set the previous belay low and you'll have taken much of the sting out of it. Seem to recall there is okay gear on that pitch; use it!
I vaguely remember a mouldy old piton on that pitch. It's light on gear, but easy. The traverse itself is easy enough to lace if you have plenty of big stuff.
> (In reply to ritid)
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> The pitch up to the traverse is completely gear-less and the belay at the top is a bit questionable as I recall.
Especially when you have got 7 people on the belay (an expanding flake), as I did at one point. At one point I had the following on two ropes: myself, my climbing partner, two casualties, another climber (a nurse)who had climbed from the bottom of the route to give medical assistance to the more seriously injured casualty, an RAF winchman and a member of the MRT. I put as much gear in as possible, but none of it was bomber.
I don't see how they would loose contact with the rock here and I'd have thought they can work their way back to the route, but maybe I'm being a noob?? (Sorry if this is my ignorance, but I am trying to learn..)
Assuming you must get your novice past a traverse you need to make sure should they fall they can regain the traverse or bail and that they wont be hurt in the fall.
Option 1: Lots and lots of good multi-directional gear clipped on alternate ropes.
Option 2: Leave one rope free and take a belay as high and central above the traverse as possible, basically they do the traverse on top rope but you compromise your protection a little in doing this.
Option 3: Lower them off and bail.
Ascending the rope and/or hauling aren't practical options with a total novice unless you're on easy ground in which case they can just climb back to the traverse (except falling down easy ground hurts!).
It's not just a 'novice' problem, for a reason that escapes me I tend to find myself agreeing to scary traverse routes with one of my (much more capable 8a/E8) partners and it takes a fair bit of thought on both our parts to keep them acceptably protected especially where gear is poor or spaced. Various backrope techniques in addition to the things already mentioned tend to be the (often somewhat inadequate) solution.
In reply to davidbeynon: cheers for the link, the traverse looks ok its hardly the Hinterstoisser Traverse !!!, she has done a lot of scrambling so will manage that no problem, thanks for the advice!!!!!
Looking the route picture, and given this is a moderate, I think I'd probably lower the second off, solo the last pitch and descend Jacks Rake. Or ab off. You could then see if they want another go.
>the traverse looks ok its hardly the Hinterstoisser Traverse !!!
Funny that, we did it in very snowy conditions and my partner has a picture that makes it look just like the Hinterstoisser traverse, in fact all that grass was banked out snow and we had crampons on for the whole route.
> (In reply to ritid)
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> >the traverse looks ok its hardly the Hinterstoisser Traverse !!!
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> Funny that, we did it in very snowy conditions and my partner has a picture that makes it look just like the Hinterstoisser traverse, in fact all that grass was banked out snow and we had crampons on for the whole route.
i will wait for the snow then.....have you got any photos
Been in the situation a couple of times. My main way of dealing is to use one rope only for protection on the traverse and then the other as either a back rope (clipped in to the last bit of gear before the traverse) or as a top-rope so they swing no-where.
Basically its possible to get around most problems with a bit of thinking, and the preferred solution will depend on the route and the gear available.
If its not possible to get around the problem, then don't do the route, coz you can pretty much guarantee that if you have a problem you can't work out a way of getting out of, that will be the problem that will occur..
Had this issue when my 2nd fell off on High Tor and ended up dangling on a route he couldn't climb. Being a resourceful and experienced chap, he prussiked back up one rope - there was no way I could lift him and communication wasn't possible anyway.
I was on the point of tying him off, escaping the system and abbing down to him when he appeared.
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