UKC

Hey, not been climbing for long, but im already belaying competantly, i've lead a couple of routes too.

I've been told a few different things about how to react to a lead climber falling if I'm belaying. Let me set the scenario :-

Lead is 1 metre above last gear currently placing next bit of gear. Lead slips and falls...
I've got him locked off on belay, but what else should I do?

Move backwards thus reducing how far the lead falls?
Brace for the fall so im ready for the jolt im gona get?
Just concentrate on keeping him locked off?

I can understand this may be a question of personal preferance, but its something i'd also like other people opinions on?

Cheers
Col

In reply to Spidermunkie:
2 & 3 for most falls, moving back will make the leader more likely to slap in to the crag and will increase the force on the gear and also you may move back in to a position you can't keep the rope locked off. It is worth moving back though if you think the leader may hit the ground if you don't!

In reply to Spidermunkie:

One thing missing from your list is preparation beforehand.

Be sure of your surroundings, of where you feet are, make sure there is nothing that you can trip over if you have to take a step forwards - or backwards, or even sideways to change your view of your climber.

Also, with trad gear, it's best to minimise any loading on it, so making the halt as gentle as possible, if you can, is also - generally - and advantage.

Stretchy ropes will aid this, anyway, but generally trying to minimise the shock loading on the system is good.

make it a "soft" fall, not a jerky one.

Agreed, a soft fall is best. If you are worried about dynamic belaying, then you can keep the rope locked off but softly do a small 'jump' (I dont mean 6 feet!!) as the leader falls. you should momentarily lift off your feet (not much!!) and this will give a nice soft fall for the leader. Also as others say, beware of your surroundings etc.

In reply to Rebecca Williams:
who really does this in practice though? I'd personally consider this an advanced technique mainly only suitable for experienced belayers belaying someone on a route with poor gear, especailly if the belayer is much heavier than the climber. You need to make sure your not likely to whack your head on something doing this also.

In reply to Spidermunkie:
Concentrate on locking off the rope and prepare for a jolt or being pulled off your feet if it's a big fall.
Belaying away from the bottom of the route or moving backwards/outwards can be a very bad idea if the outward pull dislodges the gear or unzips it from the bottom to the top.

In reply to Spidermunkie:

Definitely don't take in slack as the leader falls. In effect you would whip them faster into the rock (something to do with shortening angle of rotation). Happened to me once and I almost broke my ankle (as in was hobbling and painful for a week or so and did eventually go to get it x-rayed).

If you see the leader struggling then by all means take in some slack but, in my exeprience, unless specifically asked to do so by said leader, don't take it in anywhere near tight - the leader won't appreciate being pulled off if they are just struggling on the crux and hoping to get through it. This also has happened to me on a number of occasions.

In reply to CurlyStevo: I do... especially when sport climbing and belaying with a gri gri

In reply to sutty:

what is that belay system on the 1st one in particular?!

In reply to JonC:

Looks like a long sling on a spike or thread, with another krab being used as a runner.

In reply to Spidermunkie:

If you haven't held a lead fall before then don't try and complicate the matter. Just concentrate on locking off the dead end of the rope and it should be fine - ropes are dynamic and are designed to lessen the impact of a fall on their own.

In reply to Spidermunkie: It depends on numerous things:
- angle of the terrain
- the quality of the gear
- how far above the gear the leader is
- how much rope is out
- where you are belaying from

On steep terrain with a climber high up you should move froward and up to reduce the impact forces and limit any swing into the cliff.

With good gear (and a multi-directional low anchor) where there is a risk of a ground fall you probably want to move backwards and take in.

In most other situations the most you can normally do is just stay close to the cliff and lock off hard.

In reply to Spidermunkie:

Just lock off the rope and try not to get pulled off your feet. Easier said than done where slabs are involved. Also, be careful not to get your fingers pulled into the belay plate, what you get back isn't pretty you can take my word for that

jk

In reply to CurlyStevo:

In my experance pretty much everybody. I have never held a lead fall without being pulled at least on to my toes and usually off my feet. That isn't something to be feared but accpted and even wellcomed.

To the OP

it all depends on the fall. If the fall will be into space then step in and ride the fall that limits the forces only take in or step back if the fall will be on to something (the ground or a ledge).

In reply to jkarran: Historical note from Llanberis CC guide 1987.
"Dawes of Perception, the modestly named progeny of Johnny Dawes has had only one repeat so far, a two day ascent from John Redhead; on an earlier attempt it was only the lightning reflexes of belayer Dave Towse in jumping off the belay ledge into the lake which averted a fatal accident, as Redhead parted company with the rock and fell 50ft coming to a halt inverted, 3ft above a rock spike protudingly wickedly up out of the ground!"
Belaying is 'sometimes' more an act of inspiration than rules.

In reply to Al Evans:

Indeed! Probably best though for he OP to get the basics right and start at the beginning. For most folk that doesn't involve taking a dive into Vivian or off of Cloggy

jk

In reply to jkarran: Point taken, you have to get the rules perfect before you can break them

In reply to Spidermunkie:

Agree with what most of the experienced people have said.

Do everything you can to make the fall as dynamic as possible- move forward etc.

This is only limited by the possibility of the leader hitting the ground. In which case, move back.

If the leader has only one piece of gear stopping him hitting the ground you need to know how good the gear is, but the best practice is to make it so ultra-dynamic that the leader stops only very near the ground- hence if the gear pops they will have slowed down enough to not injure themselves badly.

If there is a bomber piece of kit half-way between the leader and the ground and a crap piece of gear above that, consider whether it is better to hope the top gear holds and belay dynamically or jump miles backwards in the hope that if the top piece pops the one below will stop the leader. This will obviously make the enventuality of the top piece popping more likely.

On marginal routes, where decking is a real issue (especially a problem with gritstone) make sure you have a good discussion throughout the route about which gear is good and bad and get an idea of what gear will be high enough to stop a leader decking.

Good luck and get some running shoes!

In reply to Spidermunkie: Rather than some of the after the event actions, the best thing you can do is set up good belay stances in the first place.

Good anchors obviously, consider upwards pull anchors if there is a good chance of being lifted off a 'sling around a spike' type stance, or directional if leading off along a traverse. The anchors that protect the second coming up, may not be well positioned or angled for the leader heading off in a different direction.

Position yourself and clip your belay device in so your able to belay and lock off effectively. Not get pinned against a wall or corner. If you anchors are well position you should be able to stay tight on them whilst belay and not get battered around if the leader falls. Let the rope absorb the fall, not the 2nd smashing his arm or shoulder into the rock face! Turn the rope around on the stance if not leading through, then you won't get distracted from belaying with any potential knots.

In reply to op:

it's worth noting that dynamic belay wont be welcome if there is a bulge or ledge to fall on which will be quite common on the easy routes that you will be doing.

on easy routes (sub HVS) the gear is nearly always good, so the load applied will probably not rip well positioned gear in good rock.

if you and your leader want to reduce the force on gear use two ropes.

Thanks to everyone who posted. Plenty to think about, Im always mindful of my surroundings, especially if theres a big bulge I could potentially be pulled into. For now I think brace and concetrate on lock off will be my priority (unless it looks like lead will deck out). Lead climber always tells me when hes placed bomber gear or not, theres usually plenty of communication going on.

Running back during a fall always stumped me as odd due to overloading gear, but it obviously has its uses under certain circumstances.

Thanks again
Col

In reply to Al Evans:

Yeah, I wish my partners would stop climbing routes like that

(afternoon, Al, by the way - long time no see)

In reply to Spidermunkie:

In my experience in trad climbing you are lucky if you get any warning. The chances are, if you are on a big crag, communication with the leader may be compromised anyway by distance, wind and the rock features above you. When it happens it just happens.

When setting up your belay it's all about anticipating the direction of force onto you which a fall will produce. These directions may vary. For example, the direction of pull may differ between when the leader sets off and when they get their first runner in. You may have to anitipate the quality of the first runners and be prepared to counter them failing.

It's all about intelligent anticipation when setting up the belay. That's when you need to get it right, because when (if) it happens you will have little if any time to react, so you must be ready. Quick locking off is the important reation to the fall, the rest depends on how well you have designed your belay.

In reply to All:
Obviously not overly experienced in the climbing world but the simple action of running backwards to shorted the rope to the climber doesn't really work? (I'm asking really)
If you take the 'average time' of a fall versus the 'reaction time' of the beylayer then a human running flat out (backwards!) for the time involved (fall time minus reaction time) then how much rope would realistically take in - going back to the old Pythagoras theory.
Granted it's a long time since I was at school but stuff like this sticks!

In reply to wrapped in bacon: For it to work properly you need a low directional anchor so Pythagoras as such doesn't apply.

However given that a good sprinter will accelerate almost as fast as a falling climber a quick belayer should manage perhaps half that over 3-5 metres which would reduce a 12-20metre fall by about 25%.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:


I seem to recall this arrangement kept Neil Bently off the deck on Equilibrium.

In reply to Spidermunkie:

If your leader parts company with a slab you can actually take in a surprising amount of rope before he hits the end of it.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:
I see where you're coming from.
A low down anchor would negate the effect I was confused about and you would shorten the climbers fall by the same distance you managed to run.
Especially if the first pro was at the beylayer's waist height.

In reply to Spidermunkie: wish people would stop suggesting that dynamic belaying requires you to jump up or to let rope slip through your hands, especially to someone quite new to belaying. Both could easily make matters much worse rather than better.

The best way I know to think of good fall-catching is to see it like catching a cricket ball. If you hold your hands rigid and let the ball hit them you may still catch the ball but the sudden impact will hurt, beacause all of the energy of the ball is absorbed in an instant. If however you cushion the blow by allowing your hands to move with the ball and gradually bring it to a stop over a metre of so, the impact will be greatly reduced and a lot less painful. Dynamic belaying is just like moving with the ball - in this case by not resisting (as much) the pull on the rope, and instead letting your body be pulled upwards and/or inwards a small distance so that the impact is cushioned. The difference is that it's not you that doesn't get hurt it's the falling leader. It can also greatly reduce the load on gear they have in too so less chance of it ripping. Of course if you're going to let yourself be pulled in any direction you need to be prepared and to make sure you aren't going to lose your footing or hit any rocks.

In my view letting rope slip through your hands is probably the worst thing you can do, but as long as you keep a firm grip on the dead end of the rope then allowing a foot or so of slippage through the belay device can also help with fall cushioning. On multi-pitch belays where you're sat on a ledge and tied closely to belay anchors this may be about the only cushioning you're able to provide, but it can still make a real difference.

In reply to Spidermunkie:

Hi Col,

What no-one has mentioned yet is the one thing I see a lot at the crag and that's the belayer standing in the wrong place. I consider the basics to be:

postiton - if the leader falls off before getting gear in, where will they land? You don't want them to land on you. On single pitch routes, especially with a poor landing your role is that of spotter. Once the first runner goes in, consider is it a nut, sling or cam? What will the direction of load be on it? It's crucial to learn that when the leader comes off, the rope will make the straightest line possible between runner and your belay device. If the first of a number of runners is a nut and you are not stood with your foot (at the very least) against the rock, then that nut *will* twist, probably invert and possibly come out.

Pay attention - it's your job to watch your leader and anticipate their needs. When will they need rope? Which rope will they want to clip next, what if they drop a piece of gear? Will it hit you? What happens if they fall off?

My pet hates - belayer not watching you but admiring the view. Take up hillwalking if you don't want any responsibility. It is possible to do both well.

Belayer lying down 10ft from the crag. Take up sunbathing. You are a hazard.

These, to me, are the fundamentals along with understanding your leader's wishes. Do they want encouragement? Silence? Are they likely to want you to photograph their arse at some point? If so, can you lock them off safely and do it one handed, prepared to drop your camera if necessary?

Once these are mastered, on harder routes you may have to get creative. That's where things like 3 rope belay systems, back ropes, pulleys, taking in slack, jumping off ledges etc may be employed. I've never had to do much more than pay attention stand close in and lock off though.

Phil

In reply to wrapped in bacon:


That's the normal 'trick' where this technique is needed, yo place a low runner specifically for the belayer to run away from. You can also use the landscape to your advantage, running down a slope, jumping off a block/shelf, belaying where you have a clear run rather than boulder hopping... Still, it's a rather niche interest subject. In most cases standing in a sensible location, paying good attention and locking off the belay plate firmly is all that's required.

In general reply to the discussion about dynamic belaying. Trying to allow rope to run through the plate by letting it slip through the hand is a recipe for burned hands at best, dropped friends at worst. A little bounce from the belayer does soften the catch noticeably but to be honest, the main gain is probably in making the conscious decision *not* to sit back onto the rope rather than to bounce. Another technique that can work well where you have a good multidirectional high first runner (high cam or stick clipped 2nd bolt for example) is simply to stand a little way back and walk/hop in as you catch the fall. I don't mean miles back and you do need to be aware of your footing and which way you'll get pulled but it can be a useful tool especially as it can also serve to improve your view and therefore awareness/anticipation of a coming fall.

OP: It's the basics that matter, getting that right is 99% of getting it all right. Most of this thread is about the last 1%.

jk

In reply to john arran:

That's really well put. Cheers

In reply to john arran: Agreed.

One thing I would add is that it can make a big difference if the climber and belayer are of very different weight and the belayer is not tied in. If the belayer is a lot lighter, they will be dragged towards the leader giving a nice soft fall. If the belayer is a lot heavier and doesn't move or give rope, the fall will not be soft.

I'm relatively new to sports climbing, I come from a background of vi ferrate/klettersteig.

I don't understand why sport climbers don't use one of these

http://www.caimantova.it/arrampicata/rel_mat_fer/11.jpg

When doing vie ferrate, I'd have that clipped to the carabiner that closes my harness. I pass the rope through the tiny rings and one end of the rope goes to the other carabiner, the one I clip to the fixed metallic rope. The other end of the rope is obviously attached to my harness, but with quite some slack (2 feet maybe). If I fall, the slack has to go through the device and this slows down the fall.

Any reasons why this isn't used in normal climbing?

In reply to Franz the Stampede:


Because sometimes it might mean you would hit the deck. Better to have some thing that can make decisions to control the fall.

In reply to sutty:

dynamic belaying does NOT mean letting the rope slip.

In reply to GeoffRadcliffe:

Yes seen this happen a few time as the lighter belayer gets lifted or dragged off the ground as most of the gear unzips. The leader then hits all the edges on the way down until they both smash their heads together in the air - a nice soft fall! Or when the belayer lets go of the rope to protect from being dragged or smashed into the rock face and the leader decks!!!!

In reply to Spidermunkie:

Until you are an expert and can react instinctively in assessing the best technique I'd "Just concentrate on keeping him locked off?"

Be careful if trad climbing not to move out from the start of the route unless you are an expert and have a bombproof multi-directional runner (friend or thread) near the start of the leaders pitch. If not the gear will likely strip (unzip) in the event of a fall.

Also even on single pitch routes make sure as a second you don't wander off or slip down the grass slope taking you leader with you - seen this happen too!!!

A lot of the advanced climbing wall and sport belaying techniques taught can be dangerous on trad routes unless you really know what you are doing. So take care....

Cheers Ron

In reply to Spidermunkie:

>Move backwards thus reducing how far the lead falls?

You definitely shouldn't do this, and you should also remember whoever told you it and make a note that they're an idiot and that you shouldn't take any notice of what they say.

jcm

What about multipitch?

I guess it would work there?

In reply to Franz the Stampede:

No, still better to have a human than a piece of metal. There's plenty to hit apart from the ground. Especially on easy routes.

The ropes are designed to offer a dynamic (stretchy) fall. You wouldn't want it any more dynamic in most situations, the system is well thought out and engineered.

In reply to Spidermunkie:

I keep the dead rope locked off, stand in close to the crag (so as not to unzip the gear from the bottom up) and keep a little bit of slack on the live rope. If the leader falls I push down on the live rope and as their weight comes on to the rope let it up slowly. This way, the rope up to the leader is shortened slightly and it brings the leader to a gentle stop whilst always being locked off. It's not as radical as jumping backwards down a hill side to keep a leader off the ground on a fall from an E9 but I've never hurt myself and the leaders I'm belaying have always been quite happy to come to slow stop.