UKC

After failing to progress to solid E2 over the summer. Despite regually cruseing E1 (lakes, north wales and Gogarth), doing a few onsight E2s and 2 uber soft E3s. I've realised where I was going wrong. Crusing shits loads of E1 doesn't make you better at climbing E2.

I'm wondering how often people go out and lcimb at their limit? Ie turn up at crag warm up on something 2-3 grades easier (Hard VS for me) and then get on something at their limit.

I tried this a few times this summer and it worked.

What doesn't work is. climbing a few routes, say a HVS then a couple of E1s then an E2. Either you run out of time or your too pumped by the time you are on the route. so end up not acheiving your potentail.

Next summer...

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I ran this topic through Babelfish and it translated and summarised it as "I'm trying to work out how to climb Lakes E3"...

It also gave me the option to translate it into various other languages including Japanese and Scottish, but I decided against it.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Not very often, i can lead E1 and i know i can, i just end up being a bit of a pussy and sticking to HVS's all day long.

In reply to Adam Moroz:

Try some E0s.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: maybe E1 just happems to be your limit, presumably you chose the E2s to suit your style and as for the 'uber soft E3s'.......

In reply to Fiend:


Grrrrrrrrr......

In reply to Anonymous: Don't most people choose routes to suit their style, i'm preety solid at HVS but i can't climb every HVS in the world just the ones that suit my type of climbing.And as we all know grades are subjective, blah, blah, blah.....

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
more often than i'd like given how close i've come on some of the better protected e5s i did over the summer, and a couple of failures...
need to expand the limit!
would agree with the tactics bit of your post - i'd do e1 or e2 to warm up then on summat hard.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Try a couple of quick fags, then go straight onto the route you want to do.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

all the time. just depends what my limit is for that day ;O).

I am regular as clockwork and usually onsight a few HVS's one weekend every 3 months, with about a 75% success rate(despite promising myself before most climbing wknds - from the comfort of my armchair - that Im gonna lead HVS). Perhaps this is the amount of time it takes me to psyche myself up for the next one or recover from the fear of a near miss.

I really should stop being such a pansy and try to consolidate the grade. The problem I find is I dont get to climb much in the week and if its been 3 weeks since my last climbing wknd it takes me the saturday to get back into it, then there's always some excuse on the sunday (too tired/hungover e.t.c)

I think your right - you just have to do 1 route at a grade or 2 below and then go for it.

Roll on King Bee Crack at Holyhead weekend after next!

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: The walk in is the warm up. Get straight onto the route you really want, that way you won't blow your psych-up. To often I've started on something "easy", not found it a push over and lost the confidence needed for the real objective.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Congratulations that man! It only took me over 10 years of climbing to realise that

I keep telling people that both the 'pyramid' approach to climbing and this whole 'warming up to routes' thing are both complete bollocks IF you're climbing regularly. Unfortunately both 'attitudes' seem firmly entrenched in the cannon of UK trad climbing.

As to your question - not enough.

However I've been making a several moves in the right direction. When training in the wall and sport climbing outdoors I'm now focusing purely on quality, not quantity. With regards to trad I've been successful about 50% of my trips/weekends in properly pushing myself. I've ticked a few good routes and also taken more proper trad falls this year than in the last 3.

There are stacks of safe and safe enough E2/E3 routes out there. Don't wory about 'blowing onsights' too much and get on them.

Best of luck

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

To my great disappointment I've not been in some time; the grade of the route was never particularly an issue. But yes, we did frequently onsight at our limits.

In reply to Mark Kemball:
To often I've started on something "easy", not found it a push over and lost the confidence needed for the real objective.

Just so. I look for E2s these days. I find if I 'warm up' on an HVS, I'll go and find it really hard and pumpy, and then lose my confidence for the E2. You're best off climbing a truely easy route (if grit, means soloing a bunch of severes) then getting straight on the target route.

The reason that HVS warmups don't work, is that HVSs are hard in that they require effort. E2s might be more technical, but they don't necessarily (and often don't) require more effort than E2. Thus you find HVS 'hard' and get put off.

Have I just repeated myself?

In reply to Owen W-G:

Oh, and the other thing I've learnt this year (other than E2s are obviously harder than HVS, but not necessarily 'harder') is that you won't get to climb a harder grade unless you get on them.

An ambitious E1 leader won't get to lead E2 unless they stand underneath one and racks up (quickly so you don't get too nervous, and obviously without looking up!) and sets off.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


I agree. Also, for me, I don't mentally feel like doing a hard lead late in a day's climbing.

For me it is best to do a warm-up pitch or two (an easy-ish lead or seconding) then go for my big tick early in the day. If it is a multi-pitch climb, the first pitch might be the warm up.

PS Which are the uber-soft E3s? [(useful to know ]

In reply to Owen W-G:


A very wise statement! Convincing yourself to start a climb is often the crux.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

If you want to get solid at a grade, you have to try routes of that grade on all rock types and styles.

I agree with the sentiment that if you feel like climbing at your limit, its often better to just get on and do it.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:


Works pretty well for me on sports routes, but you're right it doesn't have the same effect on trad. Partly cos you can get more sport routes done in a day, partly cos your turn to lead come round more quickly, and partly cos I seem to find it easier to push to my limits on sport

The fact that I rarely fall off on trad means that I'm probably not at my limit

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I have found it better to jump on whatever I have my eye on either straight away or having seconded something. This is because if I lead an easier route and don't cruise it, then I immediatly assume I am not up to leading anything harder and lose the confidence to have a go.
I haven't led at my limit for a while now, am having a break from pushing myself for the time being.
I would agree that "cruising shit loads of E1 doesn't make you better at climbing E2", however, I would say the experience gained from it could possibly effect a smoother, if slower, transition. Particularly if confidence is an issue. And if the shit loads can be on different rock types, so much the better.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: I dont tend to warm up on easier routes, i dont think it really helps a lot. My (happy) limit si currently HVS, so i start on hvs and stay on that.

I think having a route you really want to do thats at your grade helps if its the first of the day.

Also, if your climbing partner climbs harder than you, you have to get your lead in first or your too knackered to do it later ... thats always a good kick up the bum.

Dave

In reply to Mark Kemball:

i agree with this, although i rarely go to a crag with an "objective" i might have a feeling in the back of my mind i want to push my grade that day. if i try a VS or HVS and for whatever reason it spooks me, i will lose alot of confidence.

my advice is just go for it when you feel like it, whether its first route of the day (which is when i usually feel like it) or last.

I'm still not yet leading the E1s (was so hoping last trip would be it but it was p*ssing down with rain!) so I suppose my advice doesnt really count for much, but I personally think that any route you just get on and cruise to the top without struggling and falling i.e. routes you onsight will never be as satisfying to finish as those ones where you just know you can't make it first try, but something drives you forward til you do.

What I mean is it really doesnt matter whether you onsight it. If you want to do an E1, E2, E3 or whatever just go at it til you break it, keep plugging away at the route, come back another day if you have to. That way it will really mean something if you do it.

The way I think of it is that the grade is only there to help you pick the route. Once you are on it, all that matters is can you do THIS one and not a whole load of others that are supposedly at the same grade.

In reply to rock gobbler:


I can't believe it's been nearly 15 mins since this post and no response from fiend.

Where is he ?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Tom, Im finding at the moment that on most routes i try, i feel pretty close to my limit, even when warmign up on a vs or hvs. I reckon this is because warming up also means warming up the old technique, every time you get out, as well as your body. This doesnt really bother me, as i find each route with increasing grade pretty hard and it is about e2 5c that i suddenly and unexcpcetedly find myself airbourne.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


Damn straight! Luckily I had the benefit of a very good climber telling me this at an early stage in my climbing meaning I haven't had to spend 10 years working it out for myself. Cheers

I think I push myself a fair amount of the time. I try to do something that's hard for me on most of my climbing days but only feel I'm actually climbing at my limit occasionally. I don't fall off very often so perhaps I should be trying harder!

The days I climb best seem to be the ones where I warm up by very easy soloing, second a route and maybe lead something non-strenuous around my cruising grade then just go for it, before can I talk myself out of it or get pumped on something. Often when I do a big lead early in the day/weekend it sets the tone and I climb harder than usual for the remaining time, other times I feel too emotionally drained afterwards to do more than potter. But I'd agree that doing a linear progression through the grades before doing something at your limit is self-defeating as by definition you need to be at your peak to succeed, not tired or worried about it getting dark.

Generally the best way I've found of psyching myself up for hard routes is focussing on the route and disregarding the grade as much as possible. The day I led my first E1 I'd backed off leading a HS earlier in the day and the day I led my first E3 5b I'd struggled on a VS 4b as my first lead! Not feeling intimidated by the grade and actually getting onto the route is half the battle anyway, sometimes climbing the thing is actually easier, lol.

In reply to Norrie Muir:


But all the fags I know want wining and dining and lots of foreplay! I'd never get on the route that way. Can't we omit the fags?

In reply to IainWhitehouse:

Some Whitehouses would turn in their graves knowing your sexual orientation, still each to their own. Make sure you use protection.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Rarely. My current limit is HVS onsight. I've done a few, but not many, and prefer to play on VSs unless things "feel right". I've seconded at least a couple of E1s that now I'm pretty sure I could lead, so plan for next year is stop being a wuss and get on with it.

In reply to climbingpixie:

I generally try something that's at my limit each time I go out. sometimes I succeed and sometimes I fail...par for the course I guess. I suppose you could look at it that routes where you've failed have been pretty close to your limit (but maybe the "wrong side of the limit"!)

I also tend to start off with some soloing or bouldering... I find soloing is pretty good for "warming up" before trying bold routes. I guess the reasons for that are obvious... It not only gets the head in gear, but also makes you focus on precise movement on every moves, as there is no room for error...

Totally agree

The day I led my first E1 I'd backed off leading a HS earlier in the day and the day I led my first E3 5b I'd struggled on a VS 4b as my first lead!

I led a couple of E3s last week at Froggatt but failed miserably on an E2. Grades are nonsense

Not feeling intimidated by the grade and actually getting onto the route is half the battle anyway, sometimes climbing the thing is actually easier, lol.

That actually makes alot of sense...there are quite a few routes that have intimidated me, but when I have just got on them, I have usually ended up thinking "that wasn';t half as hard as I expected". There are a few exceptions, obviously

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: I have pretty poor natural ability as far as climbing goes. Just last summer regularly Falling of HVS's. Only this Summer i decided to try and train, and loose some weight.

I lost 2 stone and gained 2 solid grades. For me the only thing that works is to train and climb loads.

Last Easter i trained every day and climbed on the Grit and Welsh rock, i got pretty fit from it and gained loads of conference, on rock. Mean while you were ticking of a few monster classics on the Ben. To be honest i would of rather gone to the Ben, than frig a few E3's later on.

Next Summer, with your A levels behind you will be climbing loads.

Buy/make a fingerboard and break up your revision with that. Contact strength although is it doesn't improve your climbing ability, it does loads for your confidence. Having Strong fingers is like having a Axe in prefect Neve.

You have the motivation, go for it!

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: I dont no if you notice when i attempted to climb with you on Gable, i wasnt wanting to warm up on anything. Because i don't have any endurance!

In reply to IanJackson:

Good post.


Just checked your routes list. Very impressive, from HVS / E1 to E2 / E3 in a season. I suppose I'll have to try the same...
I've fancied Prana for years btw. Is it good?

In reply to Duck Tape:



The bit I did, up to the crux ledge was very good. E1ish. My fingers just weren't strong enough to pull through the crux.

Ian Crusied it.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


I'm not very strong in the finger department either. Though if there's decent pro between my head and feet I'll give it a go. < now if that's not a leading question I don't know what is >

In reply to Duck Tape:

There's some views on my blog. Now iam not fussy with my rock, but ive done better routes. It was hardly technical, just pull on a crimp to reach a better crimp, then up to a jug. I had high expectations!

Please dont let me put you off, the climbing up to the crux was extremely good. I just recon Lakeland has better stuff than that.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

>My fingers just weren't strong enough to pull through the crux.

Some time on the wall then, or get on limestone sports routes.

The alternative is to eat less of Mrs Smeggs pies.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Most of the time! I'm so crap I have to.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:



I dispute that, unless Tom meant :

NECESSARILY
>make you better at climbing E2.

Because it basically worked for Ian Vickers when he was young. I'm sure climbing lots of E5s makes you very capable of having a go at an E6, and doing lots of E6s means you're a lot better at climbing E7. If you cruise loads of hard E1s, you know all the old HVSs rockfax upgraded or loads of E1 5cs onsight, proper E1 cracks, then you'll be fine on many E2s. If you cruise loads of E1s in a day and can boulder 5c you should've got on an E2 ages ago if you wanted to do one. But of course, climbing all the soft E1s in the peak won't necessarily get you up an E2, but to be able to do them all is probably easy if you can climb E2, if your head's in gear.

You have to get the technical and physical ability in place, but for most of us the weak link is upstairs and to solve that there's no better medicine than mileage.

To the OP:

Seldom, but it's a stupid question? Which limit? Do I flash moves as hard as the hardest boulder problem I've flashed. In principle its possible, but you don't find your dream routes come along that often and offer you their E points on a plate that often sunshine! My redpoint limit? not even if someone's put the gear in. My physical limit. I'd say I fail on a fair few routes at my onsight limit usually because I've cocked something up, but if I threw myself at enough of them I'd get up more of them. Maybe I'm different to the redbull extreme brigade then, but continually falling off stuff, while you plainly shouldn't let the fear of it hold you back and is of itself of occasional interest, just f*cking blows.

In reply to Paz

Your system is flawed in that an E2 (for example) can be over a range of technical grades eg 5c,6a - people saying they climb E2 doesn't mean they can pull a 6a move....

In reply to nz Cragrat: Absolutely true, but possibly an anomily of the UK grading system, which I defend with all my will, hence you know exactly what you can do with an E2 5b or an E2 6b, what other system can give you that?

In reply to nz Cragrat:

Have you ever met anyone like that? I know of one such Mr 5c but giuven all the easy 6a moves in the Peak District I'm convinced he just wasn't trying. Anyway, you can still get E1 6a s, or even E1 6b s. Offwidth insists you onsight them instead of bouldering them out to prove your claim to be an E1 leader.