UKC

Hi all, saw a photo of the top peg with a rusty snapped eye from, i think, a 2004 archive on planetfear. With somebody having done it at the BMC international meet, i was wondering if the peg has been replaced yet or what state it is in or if anybody was going to replace it? Do people think it should be replaced?? It is not the first time that the peg will have been in and out. i'm not planning on doing anything with it. I just quite fancy an on-site attempt when i get up there and have heard it could be quite emotional without that peg in.

Cheers all, Ed

In reply to boothy:

I think it should be replaced but the chances of me doing it either way are slim to non existent.

In reply to boothy: go for it, but like yourself I have a vested interest. I'm sure if someone who's already done it comes along they'll be massively against it's replacement.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Why? If the peg can be replaced in exactly the same place, without damaging or altering the route there should not be a problem. I don't know of any climber who would rather see another die for the sake of ethics.

In reply to Tom Ripley:

From my understanding this will be the real issue, the original was never great and had there been more placements I'm sure EWD would have used them.

In reply to Tom Ripley: I do. I think it's rediculous, but others don't.

In reply to Tom Ripley: well, i you wouldn't die but you'd fuk yourself on the ground or ledges. It isn't really that bigger a debat overall as like you say it could be replaced with out altering the route in anyway, its a natural placement anyway, not a bolt. The fact the route has a bolt anyway, just confirms its controversial background, one that would lead most to think there is not a problem with the peg.

In reply to boothy: Is it well protected with the peg then? - just wondering why it's E6 if there isn't a ground fall potential?

In reply to Tyler:

Therefore a replacement won't be great either, just better than the rotten original that is currently in place.

Go for it Ed!

In reply to Franco Cookson: no it just means you are doing the crux sequence 5 to 10ft away from the peg and passing it as opposed to facing a 60footer and scraping the gorund.

Since when does a route have to have potential ground fall to be E6?

It is E6 i guess because there is the bolt, followed by a runnout to the peg, followed by the runnout to the belay, with hard climbing in between.

In reply to boothy: not many 6a moves above a bolt warrent E6.

In reply to Franco Cookson: I'm sure they don't but the 6a moves are quite away form the bolt. I'm not going to discuss it because i have not done the route so couldn't say anymore about it, but i can't see where your going, for a route that has had that grade for years. Its 6a and its runnout and bold. Basically a bit scarier than an E5 that it would be with say 3 bolts in it.

In reply to boothy: oright, i'm not being a nob head about it, just sounds like something i should have a look at this weekend. What sort of peg does it need?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

are you on drugs.if not you should be.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Franco, if you are confused by the british grading system there's a fantastic article on Bob's website about how it works and its origins that is often recommended on here.
http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/climb/uk_grades.htm

In reply to Aly: I know how the british grading sytem works, but am interested in seeing a 6a with a run out, but well protected crux, that gets 6a. On a good day I may be able to get up such a climb, but I can no way climb E6.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


(thats given E6)

My guess is, your shitting a brick....facing a massive whipper. But deep down you no your could survive the fall ok.

good example http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=5&year=2008#n44259

In reply to IanJackson: exactly, which is why if i climb 6c i'll attempt Raps, although the gear sounds not so bomber.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

*walks away shaking his head*

In reply to boothy:

Thanks Ed, for posting a genuinely interesting question - which I too had been wondering about with a bit more than mere idle curiosity.

What a shame it descended into the normal UKC bollocks, before anyone got chance to post an informed and sensible answer.

Don't suppose they will bother now (but I'd welcome the chance to be proved wrong...).

Neil

In reply to Neil Foster:

The top peg as in the highest (and only, I thought?) peg on the first pitch?

Personally I rather feel we should be phasing out pegs on Cloggy. I don't think it can have been there for a long time after the FFA. A bit of history for those who don't know it - in 1982 a few people were trying to make the third ascent. Kim Carrigan fell off the 'crux' (which incidentally is no harder than the rest of it, really) and Dougie Hall famously jumped off the belay (a scary proposition). Carrigan fell sixty feet or so and wound up brushing the ground (as did DH, I imagine). KC then retired from the fray and DH went up. 'I seemed to see a dotted white line on the rock above me. I knew that if I went above it and fell off I'd hit the ground.', and also retired. The route's reputation grew until 'everyone' did it in July 1983. I saw what I think was the third ascent, by Dave Lee. He stood below the crux for so long we got bored waiting and went down to Halfway House for a lemonade. We sat about, chatted a bit, and strolled back up. He was still there. We watched for a bit longer, got bored again, and went off and climbed. I think Rowland Foster, Jerry (who had just done Master's Wall and freed Pistolero), Uncle Tom Cobley and all did it shortly afterwards, possibly also Graham Hoey of this parish.

Anyway, the point of this digression is that I don't think it can have been there then. Whether it was there in 1977 I don't know.

It is in a drainage streak and will rot again, if that helps.

But of course I clipped it in May 2000, so my opinion is biased. Although by all accounts it was in reality already worthless then.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I believe it was removed(presumably following the first ascent with aid) and then got later replaced by Andy Politt. I know when Nick Dixon tried the route he stepped past the peg but was unable to clip it and unable to reverse the move which he'd made and had taken him off line, and he took a massive whipper too. Not as big as the 'billabong fall' taht Carrigan took.

Personally, i don't agree with bolts on mountain rock(although i'm sure the bolt on midsummer's would be welcome), but i believe that pegs are justifiable as they use natural placements, although they remain in situ, you aren't really altering the rock, its just another contraption designed to fit certain cracks so i say the fair game if the peg is replaced.

Any takers??

In reply to boothy:

The trouble with such in-situ pegs is that it's fine for the person who places it, but any would be onsighters at a later date are left in precisely the quandary that you are now in (i.e is it still any good or not?)

In reply to Hugh Cottam:

>i.e is it still any good or not?)

Sometimes it is not important, it is there as a psychological runner that may stop you gibbering and falling off. Lots of pegs on sea cliffs are like that, you travel in hope rather than certainty.

In reply to Hugh Cottam:

I always think that's a little overstated; after all the same is true for all gear.

I find the evolution of this route rather strange. Didn't Drummond use four pegs and the bolt? Where on earth did he put the pegs? And what did he mean when he said 'I know four pegs and one bolt, stated baldly, seems a lot, but only one of those (the top one) was for upward progress.' (or something like that - quoted in Paul W's guide). If it's the same one that was there in 2000, then presumably the actual ine was different. So did he leave them behind? Or did they take them out again in those days? And if Pollitt put the peg back in (presumably for his second ascent?), how come it wasn't there in 1982/3?

I can't believe Nick Dixon fell off! I take it this was an awfully long time ago? I remember the peg as being a bit tricky to clip - you can't see it (presumably a mercy) but my hand just happened to fall on it fairly quickly.

It's strange how the reputation of this route has declined from the point where the likes of KC and DH, some of the best of their day, were stopped by it, to the present position where hordes of punters do it every summer. It certainly isn't modern gear. Maybe it's sticky boots, or just changing attitudes.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I think he was about 19 or 20 when he tried it, and kie you say you just reach to clip the peg, i think he went past it leftwards over it, or something, and couldn't clip and went. sounds exciting. But he mad eup for ti i guess by climbing every route on the Great Wall bar masters wall.

In reply to boothy:

Back when his life wasn't worth £4.50, then, or however much the bit of gear he didn't have on Teenage Menopause would have cost.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Were you with him when he did Teenage Menopause? Did you see johnny on-sight it in brandnew boots?

In reply to boothy:

Good God, no. I was failing on some VS at the time, I imagine.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I think that he tried Midsummer's soon after he on-sighted rainbow of recalcitrance as his first E6. I think he headpointed everything else. Ha!

In reply to boothy:

>but i can't see where your going, for a route that has had that grade for years

The whole thing's been E6 for years, yes, but the first pitch on its own was only considered E5 between say 1988 and 2004, or whenever Nick D's guidebook came out and upgraded it on the basis the peg was now gone/so rotted as to be unreliable. Without the peg I'd guess hard E5/easy E6; the moves aren't all that hard but, as you say, it could get a little emotional.

jcm

In reply to boothy:

So 1986/7 or so then, I suppose (struggling for when Rainbow was done exactly).

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Nick's guid egave the first pitch E6 but he was under the impression that all of the pegs were in and fine. When i told him about the top peg being snapped, he thought i must have got the wrong peg because he said it was a big chunky bomber peg, but obviously he forgot to check for the guide and so maybe without the peg it is hard(in a dangerous way)E6. Maybe a E5/6 with the peg.

And at the end of it all who really cares?? It just looks like a brilliant route.

In reply to boothy:

There is only one peg, isn't there? There's certainly only one that matters.

I'm sure I remember asking him at the guidebook launch and him saying he'd given it E6 because he abbed down and looked at the peg and was shocked it was so crap. It's never E6 with a good peg under that overlap to the left and below the crux, which is what I imagine we're talking about.

Anyway I agree with you it's one of those where the grade doesn't matter too much; if you're psyched for it then you're going to do it whatever grade it is.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Yeh that is the peg(only peg) we're reffering to. Gosh i hope i don't take the Billabong fall then. ha. Did you clip it? I guess you can at least thread it somehow and slow your fall down a bit.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Yeh that is the peg(only peg) we're reffering to. Gosh i hope i don't take the Billabong fall then. ha. Did you clip it? I guess you can at least thread it somehow and slow your fall down a bit.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


I'd concur with the above. With standards ever rising we will see more harder o/sights happening of routes like this. Why have that grey area - is the peg there/good etc. Once they have rusted away then leave them out and notch the grade up in the next guide should it be required. Wiki's give bang up to date info & forums are a great resource for specific route beta. As if it is likely that would be ascentionists of Midsummers won't have "asked around" considering the routes history. We need to retain these adventurous routes for future generations.

I second the interesting debate which thankfully seems back on track.

In reply to richard kirby: Well i partly agree but from the devil's advocate point of view, the peg is a natural placement, and to not have it in use seems slightly arbritary assuming the existing peg can be removed properly without leaving clogged(no pun intended) up bits of metal in the placement. Have you done the route Rich. YOu seem to have a fairly nice collection of North Wales hard ticks.

You going back to Nesscliffe anytime soon? Did you lead Yuckan II?

Ed

In reply to boothy:

I guess you could somehow thread the stub if that's all there is. Although given you can't easily see what you're doing it would be quite exciting, especially one-handed. One might prefer just to get on with it.

I'm sure if you can headpoint Nesscliffe E8 (My Piano?!) you're not going to fall off, although I dare say Nick D thought the same...

jcm

In reply to boothy: With the peg in an ok state I think it is a scary E5. (Like The Cad was with the bolt).The climbing is not that hard and you can take your time, without the peg it would be proper E6 and scarier than The Cad without the bolt. I did 'em both back in the day with the peg on Midsummers and the bolt in The Cad. Ahhh (still struggle a bit with two E6 armchair ticks! Good pub bragging tho!!!) Hehe

In reply to boothy:

://www.planetfear.com/news_detail.asp?n_id=5908

This is a link to the photo of the peg. Hope the link works. This thread is getting me so fired up about cloggy climbing. I'm supposed to be revising but this is much more interesting.

Ha but i tried My piano on a top rope the day before i led. But still, i'd love to give Midsummers a shot!

Its superb, i have all the other classics to try to. troach sillouhette, great wall womb bits shrike the boldest. However in the mean time i have some shunting to do up there . . .

In reply to boothy: add http to the start of that. it was not acceptong the link and didn't know how else to get round it.

In reply to boothy:
I'm highly sceptical about pegs in positions where they're liable to rot quickly - sea cliffs, drainage streaks etc.. like someone said above, fine for those who do it just after it's been replaced, but 5/10 years down the line potential onsighters can't tell if it's going to be decent or not and wont know what they might be getting into. If the peg is in a placement where it can be taken out and replaced whenever anyone fancies it without damaging the placement then maybe it's fine, but realistically that's very unlikely to be the case, especially with pegs which have rotted. I'd say perhaps better to let it disapear (under some unfortunate soul, probably me) and just have P1 in as E6 (it's down at E5 in the GU north wales selective guide I'm pretty sure). Think it does depend on the individual placement a lot though..
Aside: pegs on sea cliffs piss me off. eg, there's a crag in north pembroke with a bunch of *** E5s/6s but you read the description and they've all got loads of old pegs in - how the hell are you supposed to know whether you're getting on a well protected E5 or a death-trap E7?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Hmm, nice. Cracked eye, rusted and bent.

Those thinking of doing the route would be advised to look at that and select a krab that sits well on it like an old D shape one to reduce the twist if it held a fall.

In reply to boothy:

Hey Ed

No I haven't done it and probably never will. I suspect my days of technically bold routes like this one are gone. It's over to guys like you to the take up the challenge ...and thats kinda the point. It's a real thrill to do these routes as they were done initially but surely the way forward is to raise the bar by doing them in better style. So eliminating pegs that were in fact a bit marginal and will never be in the same state a few years later. Furthermore, this whole peg thing is a real issue particularly on sea cliffs and high mountain crags where inspection (if desired) is more challenging than say checkin out the pegs on Yukan. If you think about it then you could argue its safer to not replace any pegs on high mountain crags + sea cliffs so that future ascentionist at least know the deal and don't potentially arrive at the crux and are shocked at the fact the peg is in a shocking state or not there. Is it not best to leave the ground with the game plan of "the peg WILL be in a bad state or not there- I must be prepared for this and realise I will be in a dangerous situation ". I would imagine, It's not as if the route in Q would suddenly gravitate to Indian Face 2 if the peg wasn't replaced. It would still be a very feasible lead, peg-less, for more than just the top end O/Sighters.

As to Yukan - I haven't been back but it's on the hit list.

Cheers

Rich

In reply to abarro81: Alrite mate. You'l have to send me a text as i lost all my numbers a few weeks back, funnily enough as my phone got wet when we were rained off clog.

But about saying that people in the future will not know the state of the peg and may be therefore making a more serious on sight attempt is surely an argument for the peg to be replaced. This is exactly the case at the moment. Both the ground up guide and cc guide both say move up and reach to clip the hidden peg. This is slightly misleading is it not considering a picture has just been put on this thread showing that the peg has a snapped eye.

Good effort on Super sonic btw. Looking forward to gettin back on white lines, maybe after summer now when it gets a bit colder.

In reply to abarro81:
- how the hell are you supposed to know whether you're getting on a well protected E5 or a death-trap E7?

Exactly.

In reply to richard kirby:

At least the dodgy in-situ gear has produced a decent thread, HA!

In reply to richard kirby:

I completely agree. you stroll up to cloggy with your nice recently up to date ground up guide, go for midsummer expecting it to be the nice E5 it describes and get over to the peg and realise that it is damaged. I am in the mind that i would clip whatever is there and if somebody decides to replace it, i would not hold it against them, equally i would consider attempting it as it is.

In reply to boothy:
I think anyone getting on it will expect a dodgy peg - I always do on 'adventurous' stuff with pegs in, or just about anytime its not a drilled beg down avon.. better to just adjust guides as they come out than need to replace it again and agin until the placement's full of ructy shite, at least then only one guidebook-generation gets screwed over rather than more and more as time goes on..
will text ya later

In reply to boothy:
I belayed Nick on his ascent of Midsummers I don't remember any huge falls (or any falls at all). We only did the first pitch that day (early 80s). Its E6 for all three pitches (in effect 3 E5 pitches in a row).

In reply to boothy:

I've just had a chat with PW about this and this is what he said:

On the first ascent of Midsummer Night's Dream -on his first attempt (onsight of course) he went up to and past the bolt then arrived at two pegs about 4ft apart. The upper one fell out in his hand, but he clipped the lower one. Then he fell off, stripped the peg and took a big fall hitting the ground on the stretch and biting his tongue.

He then went straight back up and did the first ascent using the bolt only - no pegs - ground up.

So it seems to him that there is no justification to replace a peg on this pitch.

Apparently MND was a consolation last-minute route on that day, after he decided not to try to do the line that has since become Indian Face.

In reply to boothy:
I watched 'Sean the Belgian' (see international meet news item from a few days ago) onsight this pitch last week. There are two bits of fixed gear, one lower down, and one higher up behind a little niche. I think it's the latter that is in the photo that Mick linked to above. Sean made no comment about it at the time, and so it didn't occur to me to ask him about it later, but if it still in such poor a state then it would be a long old fall (onto the lower peg, which looked quite good from the ground). There is a, quote, "okay" skyhook placement after the (second) peg to protect the last moves to the belay, though it was rotating alarmingly by the time he got there. There are also some goodish RPs low down (before the first peg) although these are academic, as the hard climbing isn't until later. Hope this helps, sorry can't be more specific, it's a little out of my league from the time being!

In reply to Andy Popp: Nick definitely fell off the first pitch when he first tried it. Perhaps he did it with you subsequently. I was talking to him about it on the phone this morning. I'v heard lots of stories from him about you though Andy, you'll hav to come over to nesscliffe for an evening's cragging.

In reply to Alun:
PS From reading other replies the first 'peg' I mention may be a bolt. Though it looked like a peg from my comfy, safe, spot on the grass below.

In reply to Jonathan Lagoe: Right fair enough then, we can all go to the pub now . . . or climbing even! Anybody up for Cloggy this evening??

In reply to boothy:

His quote was "i fell feckin miles!" or something.

In reply to Jonathan Lagoe: PW ? I thought the FA was Ed Drummond & Phil Bartlett ?

Paul Williams for the FFA ? (or another PW)

In reply to Doug:

Sorry, should have said FFA - Pete Whillance.

In reply to Doug:

I am glad I'm not the only one puzzled by PW.

In reply to richard kirby: I thought it was well known pete whillance did the FFA of this - very much in his style.

In reply to boothy: Did Leo Houlding solo Midsummer? I remeber reading an article about some routes in preparation for his on sight of masters wall. I think i remeber it saying he soloed Great Wall, but can't remeber if it just said he led Womb Bits and Midsummer.

In reply to boothy: Fair enough Ed, I didn't think Nick fell that day but my memory is shocking. To be honest just about anything might have happened and I'll have forgotten. I do remember it was my first day on the crag and first route there too. As I climbed E2 and the crux is a long unprotected traverse, seconding was quite an interesting experience. I was also there for the Teenage Menopause ascent, which was pretty hairy.

Cheers

Andy

In reply to Andy Popp: Nice one Andy. Didn't want to sound rude just coming straight back at you saying you were talking rubbish, you probably know masses about nick's ascents as you were with him for most of them.

You been doing much climbing recently? I heard an interesting story about you on White Slab and going the wrong way??

In reply to boothy:

I seem to remember Pete Whillance in a 'High' article describing taking a whipper from a new route on Raven Crag (Thirlmere or Threshwaite Cove -- not sure which) and almost severing his tongue. I didn't know he'd suffered a similar fate on MND.

In reply to Lord of Starkness:

Top Gear on Threshwaite Cove

In reply to Hugh Cottam:

Cheers for that.

Pete was a bit of a tough nut in them days - but then again he was a scaffolder (albeit one with a degree -- so had quite a bit more of a brain than most scaffolders of my acquaintance!)

He was as cool under pressure as anyone I've known.

In reply to Lord of Starkness:

Aye, Pete and Dave, the little and large of the climbing world. Dave always sitting there listening and Pete bubbling up with ideas.

In reply to boothy:

>Both the ground up guide and cc guide both say move up and reach to clip the hidden peg.

I did think the CC guide described the peg as being very poor. No? The Ground-Up guide certainly should have done.

Pete W seems to have had bad luck with his tongue. Maybe the result of falling off with a cigarette between your lips?!

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
CC guide: "Go up and slightly left for 4 or 5 metres until a peg can be reached(hidden in a shallow flake corner on the left and better reached than visited)" . I guess the reached bit is from Nick's experience of getting across right by it and not being able to clip it or move back.

GU guide: pretty much says exactly the same thing. Seeing as both guides have been published since 2004, maybe something should have been mentioned, at least in the Ground Up guide as that was only out at the end of '06.

Oh well. Like people have mentioned anyway. If your going for these kind of hard routes on mountain crags you climb with a certain scepticism regarding things such as pegs, in situ gear mentioned in guides etc.

In reply to boothy:

Yes, that's what I was remembering. I took 'better reached than visited' to mean it wasn't very good, but perhaps you're right.

jcm

In reply to Lord of Starkness:
>

And lets not forget Grovehill Fisheries

In reply to steve webster:

Hi Steve , I can't work out if the lad is the latest new comining or Billy Fisher

In reply to Neil Foster:

Neil

I did this with Nick Wharton in the late 90's. The whole route took about 30 mins ( Nick was leading all the pitches and he was just so fast...)

I really remember two things

1. staring at the 2nd pitch run out with a big slack horizontal rope from me to the belay and Nick saying- come on, get on with it..

2. the insitu gear was crap but if you were good enough to climb it confidently like Nick did it didn't really seem to matter... Not one to fall off as the tech grade is steady apart from that one move on the top pitch which is a bit trickier.

Huw

In reply to boothy: Did anybody else see Sean's ascent at the international meet? Is this likely to be the first ascent this year?

In reply to boothy: climbings boreing just everyone stop all this jibberjabber and have a smoke and some sex,

ed's the man

mwah x

In reply to boothy:

There were several other people around, the crag was busy with international meet people. Whether it was the first ascent this year I don't know, there was no chalk on it but the whole crag was bone dry and had seen a lot of attention the the week or so before, apparently.

Best of luck, if you get on it let us know how it goes!

In reply to boothy: Its been a nice today, i wander if anybody has got on it . . . ?

In reply to boothy:
Logs show it got done at start of May..