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1. Cry
2. Throw up
3. Eat own fingers.
What do you reckon?
2. Throw up
3. Eat own fingers.
What do you reckon?
In reply to KeithW:
repeatedly smack hands against stony surface until feeling returns.
repeatedly smack hands against stony surface until feeling returns.
In reply to Dom Whillans:
Repeatedly beat head against ice to take mind off pain in hands.
(And whoever said you only get hotaches once in a day was lying. The b*stard.)
Repeatedly beat head against ice to take mind off pain in hands.
(And whoever said you only get hotaches once in a day was lying. The b*stard.)
In reply to Dom Whillans:
then cry ! and throw in a few ...oh my fu&Kity F&%K FU&K F&*K's
does the trick for me.
> (In reply to KeithW)
> repeatedly smack hands against stony surface
> repeatedly smack hands against stony surface
then cry ! and throw in a few ...oh my fu&Kity F&%K FU&K F&*K's
does the trick for me.
In reply to KeithW: amputation.
In reply to mux:
I think Keith says things like bother, but hot aches may bring on more robust talk.
Compare your hot-aches with your partners, see who is crying the most.
solar powered heated gloves are on the horizon, not much use ATM though.
I think Keith says things like bother, but hot aches may bring on more robust talk.
Compare your hot-aches with your partners, see who is crying the most.
solar powered heated gloves are on the horizon, not much use ATM though.
In reply to KeithW:
I have tried putting them under a very hot water tap.(I did not realise it was SO hot)
The Size your hands blow up to is quite impressive, and when the blisters come, that just finishes the look.
So not recommended withhot water , but a luke warm water might help(if available which is unlikely).
> 1. Cry
> 2. Throw up
> 3. Eat own fingers.
>
> What do you reckon?
> 2. Throw up
> 3. Eat own fingers.
>
> What do you reckon?
I have tried putting them under a very hot water tap.(I did not realise it was SO hot)
The Size your hands blow up to is quite impressive, and when the blisters come, that just finishes the look.
So not recommended withhot water , but a luke warm water might help(if available which is unlikely).
In reply to KeithW:
<smug mode>
Don't get 'em - hands are freezing cold one minute, nice and warm the next.
</smug mode>
ALC
<smug mode>
Don't get 'em - hands are freezing cold one minute, nice and warm the next.
</smug mode>
ALC
In reply to Jim C: was this an insitue hot tap ..or do you carry one with you ?
In reply to sutty: hmm I guess not ..when was the last time the norries saw the sun ?
1800's wasnt it
1800's wasnt it
In reply to KeithW: Have you tried inserting them down the trousers of your belayer?
In reply to KeithW:
Prevention
- leashless, failing that clipper leashes
- when you start to feel them freeze, swing each hand back and forth vigorously until you feel all that lovely warm blood being forced into them
- if your gloves are wet, switch to dry ones as soon as you can
I have never had hot aches since I started putting some effort into prevention
Prevention
- leashless, failing that clipper leashes
- when you start to feel them freeze, swing each hand back and forth vigorously until you feel all that lovely warm blood being forced into them
- if your gloves are wet, switch to dry ones as soon as you can
I have never had hot aches since I started putting some effort into prevention
In reply to KeithW: Man up
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat: yes this resulted in him getting piles .....worked for the aches though ..
In reply to t_stork: have him keith ...he climbs a grade or two lower than you ....
go on have him !! i'l back you up once I get the feeling back in my hands.
go on have him !! i'l back you up once I get the feeling back in my hands.
In reply to KeithW:
Had really a really bad case of hot aches a couple of years ago. I was pretty much ready to amputate my fingers with a spork. I was crying and moaning, holding my hands under my arm pits and rocking back and forth like a mental person. The party on the route next to us asked if I was OK and whether my partner needed any help getting me down!
I think the only thing you can do is man up and "enjoy" it as part of the fun of winter climbing.
Had really a really bad case of hot aches a couple of years ago. I was pretty much ready to amputate my fingers with a spork. I was crying and moaning, holding my hands under my arm pits and rocking back and forth like a mental person. The party on the route next to us asked if I was OK and whether my partner needed any help getting me down!
I think the only thing you can do is man up and "enjoy" it as part of the fun of winter climbing.
In reply to KeithW:
I think the best way to avoid them is to keep warm (not just your fingers). That way the blood keeps flowing to the extremities.
Once you have them, crying, moaning and swearing are your only option!
I think the best way to avoid them is to keep warm (not just your fingers). That way the blood keeps flowing to the extremities.
Once you have them, crying, moaning and swearing are your only option!
In reply to Graeme Seggie:
Aye, last night at Ratho was hotache-inducing! Good practice for winter climbing if you lose your gloves!
Rimz
Aye, last night at Ratho was hotache-inducing! Good practice for winter climbing if you lose your gloves!
Rimz
In reply to sutty:
Get this kit http://www.heat4jackets.com/info.html
Only problem is lugging a motorcycle battery with you...
> solar powered heated gloves are on the horizon, not much use ATM though.
Get this kit http://www.heat4jackets.com/info.html
Only problem is lugging a motorcycle battery with you...
In reply to sutty: Dear Sutty, when I went winter climbing there never seemed to be over much sun - mostly a wee bit wind with a puckle snow falling down or spindrift falling up...solar power nae much use under and in the clouds. There again, I did quite a lot of my winter climbing with my mitts dangling frae their strings ... heated mitts nae much use. There again when I did hae the mitts on I usually needed to spit a fine green grott on them to freeze them to the rocks. Of course ye could greet on the mitts and that would freeze just as well as the grott. With heated mitts the grott an' the gratted greet wouldnae freeze over well. But aye, we're hardy folk, we Scots!
In reply to Gordon Smith: and all with out a vest on to I bet ?
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Ah, in those conditions you may need one of these strapped to your sack.
http://www.gizmag.com/go/7576/
Ah, in those conditions you may need one of these strapped to your sack.
http://www.gizmag.com/go/7576/
In reply to Wingnut:
When doing long distance jobs couriering on the motorbike this winter, i'd get hot aches at every stop, which was about every 45 minutes. One day on a London to Newcastle job with sub-zero temps i got very bad hot aches 12 times!!!
> (And whoever said you only get hotaches once in a day was lying. The b*stard.)
When doing long distance jobs couriering on the motorbike this winter, i'd get hot aches at every stop, which was about every 45 minutes. One day on a London to Newcastle job with sub-zero temps i got very bad hot aches 12 times!!!
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Going to Wales on a Lambretta in the 60s, two up in winter we sometimes swapped over to relieve the hot aches of the driver. Then we had the tent to put up after over three hours on the bike.
Going to Wales on a Lambretta in the 60s, two up in winter we sometimes swapped over to relieve the hot aches of the driver. Then we had the tent to put up after over three hours on the bike.
In reply to KeithW:
Just assume your partner, or someone else within a mile of you probably has them worse...
Just assume your partner, or someone else within a mile of you probably has them worse...
In reply to KeithW: i have found that smearing your hands in marmite before you set off has proven to be utterly useless.
In reply to sutty: To the mast of my boat more like! Ah'm nae the hardy Scot ony maaaare!
In reply to mux: A vest on? What use is a vest to your fingers. Jings, man, you wear your clothes in strange places!
In reply to KeithW: Plunge your hands in the snow for a second or 2.
No Really.
It slows down the heat differential. When you bring them back out, it'll come back but nowhere near as bad, repeat until comfortable...
Try it next time, you'll thank me for it.
Rob
No Really.
It slows down the heat differential. When you bring them back out, it'll come back but nowhere near as bad, repeat until comfortable...
Try it next time, you'll thank me for it.
Rob
Stay at home?!
In reply to KeithW:
Re-iterate what Glen said about keeping warm generally; if your body is really warm then your hands will be warmer too.
Re-iterate what Glen said about keeping warm generally; if your body is really warm then your hands will be warmer too.
In reply to Gordon Smith: well everyone knows that ya maaam wouldnt let you go play unless you had your vest on...!!!
As for manning up !! ...
if your a girly for crying when you have the Aches ....then throw us them rollers and get out the way of that mirror ...
I'm here, I'm a girly and I'm proud......
now can you do the next pitch I want my nails to dry properly before I put those gloves on again.
As for manning up !! ...
if your a girly for crying when you have the Aches ....then throw us them rollers and get out the way of that mirror ...
I'm here, I'm a girly and I'm proud......
now can you do the next pitch I want my nails to dry properly before I put those gloves on again.
In reply to KeithW:
1.dont approach the climb wearing the gloves youll be leading with, keep leading gloves bone dry and sweat free for the first pitch, and DO NOT use windstopper fleece gloves!!!!
2.second pitches with decent big gloves like OR Arete's or Outdoor designs flexigrip things i.e the gloves you belay with
3. swing your arms round like a windmill
1.dont approach the climb wearing the gloves youll be leading with, keep leading gloves bone dry and sweat free for the first pitch, and DO NOT use windstopper fleece gloves!!!!
2.second pitches with decent big gloves like OR Arete's or Outdoor designs flexigrip things i.e the gloves you belay with
3. swing your arms round like a windmill
In reply to Erik B: see now I do all of these - climb with 4-5 pair of thin gloves (one for each pitch), thick belay gloves, keep warm and play the windmill/ I'm a train game.... but still manage to cry like a girly on the odd pitch.....
I hate snow ..its crap ...
I hate snow ..its crap ...
In reply to KeithW:
One more suggestion: instead of letting them thaw out, let em freeze totally until you have frostbite. You won't feel a thing. Ever.
One more suggestion: instead of letting them thaw out, let em freeze totally until you have frostbite. You won't feel a thing. Ever.
In reply to KeithW:
Thanks for the replies, serious or otherwise (no, really).
Sticking my hands in my belayer's pants is my favourite; solely because I suspect the ensuing row would take my mind off anything (and provide some frenetic exercise to boot.)
I was being a bit tongue in cheek, having been caught out the other day. I thought I had it sorted, with the neoprene wrist-warmers that I will happily bore anyone about at any opportunity; and always having spare gloves. Also 'windmilling' works well for me, and avoiding caffeine on the hill. But it goes to show, a moment of inattention can lead to minutes of gasping agony.
By the way, does anyone else find seconding ice routes harder work than leading? It always takes me longer to get screws out than to place them, and I arrive at the belay festooned with screws & draws dangling off random bits of my harness, slings & rucksack. Not an impressive sight.
Thanks for the replies, serious or otherwise (no, really).
Sticking my hands in my belayer's pants is my favourite; solely because I suspect the ensuing row would take my mind off anything (and provide some frenetic exercise to boot.)
I was being a bit tongue in cheek, having been caught out the other day. I thought I had it sorted, with the neoprene wrist-warmers that I will happily bore anyone about at any opportunity; and always having spare gloves. Also 'windmilling' works well for me, and avoiding caffeine on the hill. But it goes to show, a moment of inattention can lead to minutes of gasping agony.
By the way, does anyone else find seconding ice routes harder work than leading? It always takes me longer to get screws out than to place them, and I arrive at the belay festooned with screws & draws dangling off random bits of my harness, slings & rucksack. Not an impressive sight.
In reply to KeithW:
Do you have a Caritool or similar? Makes racking screws much easier. Dont really see why it's harder to strip screws, unless you're seconding harder ground than you're leading?
Do you have a Caritool or similar? Makes racking screws much easier. Dont really see why it's harder to strip screws, unless you're seconding harder ground than you're leading?
In reply to KeithW: Why do some people get hot aches while others get away with it on the same route and in the same conditions? Apart from clothing etc, I always wondered if there was a medical explanation connected with blood circulation or something. Anybody?
In reply to nick simons:
Raynaud's disease (RAY-noz) is a vascular disorder that affects blood flow to the extremities which include the fingers, toes, nose and ears when exposed to temperature changes or stress - Wikipedia
I know a few people that are diagonsis with this but I doubt everybody that suffers from the hot-aches has it.
Raynaud's disease (RAY-noz) is a vascular disorder that affects blood flow to the extremities which include the fingers, toes, nose and ears when exposed to temperature changes or stress - Wikipedia
I know a few people that are diagonsis with this but I doubt everybody that suffers from the hot-aches has it.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I've got a couple of Black Diamond caritool-type things, but I've just got a new harness & haven't attached them to it yet. I'm also going to make a 'pan pipe' carrier before I go to Rjukan next month.
But I find unclipping the draw & unscrewing the ice screw takes longer and is more fiddly. I suppose the answer is just to practice more at home, with my gloves on.
I've got a couple of Black Diamond caritool-type things, but I've just got a new harness & haven't attached them to it yet. I'm also going to make a 'pan pipe' carrier before I go to Rjukan next month.
But I find unclipping the draw & unscrewing the ice screw takes longer and is more fiddly. I suppose the answer is just to practice more at home, with my gloves on.
> By the way, does anyone else find seconding ice routes harder work than leading? It always takes me longer to get screws out than to place them, and I arrive at the belay festooned with screws & draws dangling off random bits of my harness, slings & rucksack. Not an impressive sight.
one of my mates often leaves the kit dangling from his ropes when seconding ... looks messy as hell to me and has to get in the way...but when I am getting pumped fiddling like hell to rack collected kit neatly on my harness I wonder who has the right idea.
In reply to scottm:
I have mild Raynauds disease, but that's different to hot aches.
It comes on at temperatures slightly above freezing, and is characterised by numbness and white, waxy skin which doesn't go once my fingers are warmed up. It also comes in patches - just one side of a finger, then the whole tip of the next, third finger unaffected etc.
With hot aches, my whole fingers go numb and regain feeling all at once, just as I think anyone else's do.
I have mild Raynauds disease, but that's different to hot aches.
It comes on at temperatures slightly above freezing, and is characterised by numbness and white, waxy skin which doesn't go once my fingers are warmed up. It also comes in patches - just one side of a finger, then the whole tip of the next, third finger unaffected etc.
With hot aches, my whole fingers go numb and regain feeling all at once, just as I think anyone else's do.
In reply to KeithW & DougG:
I thought both were circulation issues within the hands and Raynauds was effected by the cold. I stand correct as it would appear not to be the case.
I thought both were circulation issues within the hands and Raynauds was effected by the cold. I stand correct as it would appear not to be the case.
In reply to KeithW:
I think Raynaud's is quite common among lanky big gits such as myself. Have never met you Keith but I'm guessing you might be one too?
I think Raynaud's is quite common among lanky big gits such as myself. Have never met you Keith but I'm guessing you might be one too?
In reply to DougG:
Yep - 6'2" & long in the limbs. The blood sometimes just doesn't go all the way to the ends.
Yep - 6'2" & long in the limbs. The blood sometimes just doesn't go all the way to the ends.
In reply to mux: Jings, I can't remember that far back!!
In reply to KeithW:
I find repeatedly banging my head on the ice, screaming at whichever god is one duty and soiling my pants works for me.
I find repeatedly banging my head on the ice, screaming at whichever god is one duty and soiling my pants works for me.
In reply to DougG:
Keith looks like David Rappaport, or the other one with the sieve on his head. Randall I think.
Keith looks like David Rappaport, or the other one with the sieve on his head. Randall I think.
In reply to KeithW:Listen to Robert Wilson suggestion. The hot aches are mainly caused by the blood rushing into frozen fingers and heating them up too quickly. Slow down the process by getting them back in the snow/cold water etc. It has worked for me for more than 30 years. Yes it's counter intuitive but it works!
In reply to KeithW: MAN up DUDE!
In reply to KeithW:
I have researched this in depth and can report that crying does not help at all.
The cure is swearing and shaking out but will hurt like hell.
Prevention is the only true course. Leashless keeps the blood flow up( or will if you shake regularly). Gloves down your shirt nice and warm between climbs. A nice thermos of hot tea at lunch seems good too.
I have researched this in depth and can report that crying does not help at all.
The cure is swearing and shaking out but will hurt like hell.
Prevention is the only true course. Leashless keeps the blood flow up( or will if you shake regularly). Gloves down your shirt nice and warm between climbs. A nice thermos of hot tea at lunch seems good too.
In reply to KeithW:
Best way to deal with them is not to get them in the first place - three or more pairs of GOOD warm gloves is the answer. Change when wet and keep your torso warm.
Or, cry loads, that always helps me.
Rich
Best way to deal with them is not to get them in the first place - three or more pairs of GOOD warm gloves is the answer. Change when wet and keep your torso warm.
Or, cry loads, that always helps me.
Rich
In reply to KeithW: Turn the DVD player off...
(Apologies if that has been used already, couldn't be arsed to read thread!) M
(Apologies if that has been used already, couldn't be arsed to read thread!) M
In reply to Moses: The hot aches are mainly caused by the blood rushing into frozen fingers and heating them up too quickly. Slow down the process by getting them back in the snow/cold water etc. It has worked for me for more than 30 years. Yes it's counter intuitive but it works!
Yes i agree also cooling the hands on the walk in and allowing them to warm up seems to prevent it on the climbs. Experience seems to help with less gripping of the tools and going leashless seems to improve the blood flow. Just keep trying.
Yes i agree also cooling the hands on the walk in and allowing them to warm up seems to prevent it on the climbs. Experience seems to help with less gripping of the tools and going leashless seems to improve the blood flow. Just keep trying.
In reply to KeithW:I find if you stick your head in a bucket of water three times and only take it out twice. They soon dissappear. Apart from that just scream ,shout obsceneties and go back to that promise that you`ll never do any winter climbing again.(for the umpteenth time).
In reply to Mr Lopez: it looked to me like moving arms very quickly and swearing rather loudly in spanish helped a lot!
In reply to KeithW:
A recent trip to Canada reveiled that hot aches are called "screaming barfy's" out there for the obvious reasons... I've not found any cures/preventions works, just scream then try barfing till you feel better i guess...
A recent trip to Canada reveiled that hot aches are called "screaming barfy's" out there for the obvious reasons... I've not found any cures/preventions works, just scream then try barfing till you feel better i guess...
In reply to KeithW:
Try taking a vasodilator before climbing, eg THC, Amyl Nitrite or Sildenafil. A GP friend of mine swears by the latter, which is also used for altitude sickness and may be easier to get hold of.
Try taking a vasodilator before climbing, eg THC, Amyl Nitrite or Sildenafil. A GP friend of mine swears by the latter, which is also used for altitude sickness and may be easier to get hold of.
In reply to Jim at Craigdhu:
Absolute Bollox.........
....you don't have any friends
> (In reply to KeithW)
> A GP friend of mine swears by the latter, which is also used for altitude sickness and may be easier to get hold of.
> A GP friend of mine swears by the latter, which is also used for altitude sickness and may be easier to get hold of.
Absolute Bollox.........
....you don't have any friends
In reply to KeithW:
I only really get hot aches when seconding, so I have recently taken to seconding in mitts. It took a few routes to get my act together but it works fine, I even lead some easier pitches with them.
I only really get hot aches when seconding, so I have recently taken to seconding in mitts. It took a few routes to get my act together but it works fine, I even lead some easier pitches with them.
In reply to DaveHK:
If they are wearing crampons this might not be a fabulous idea....
> Get someone to kick you in the balls to take your mind off the hot aches.
If they are wearing crampons this might not be a fabulous idea....
In reply to KeithW:
1. Ampuate own fingers
2. Go to Barbados instead
3. Putting your hands in someone elses pants, may not help but takes your mind off the hot aches.... well some of them anyway.
1. Ampuate own fingers
2. Go to Barbados instead
3. Putting your hands in someone elses pants, may not help but takes your mind off the hot aches.... well some of them anyway.
In reply to KeithW:
Brilliant thread! lol!! What works for me is to burst out swearing lots which very quickly turns into fits of giggles as I realise how ridiculous I am being....normally by the time i've stopped laughing its time to start up the next pitch and my hands are warm!
I hate seconding - it sucks! you're cold from the belay and I find it way more scary for some reason...
Brilliant thread! lol!! What works for me is to burst out swearing lots which very quickly turns into fits of giggles as I realise how ridiculous I am being....normally by the time i've stopped laughing its time to start up the next pitch and my hands are warm!
I hate seconding - it sucks! you're cold from the belay and I find it way more scary for some reason...
In reply to inuklm:
I always get em at the same point everytime - after the first pich either leading or seconding, it don't matter! thought about it and know why I get em then. Long, hot walk in, then stop and gear up - poons on, harness, gear etc. During this time the blood must withdraw from the fingers. Back on with the gloves and slowly start warming again and after climbing the first pitch - bam - the screaming abb dabbs!
Gonna try the plunging in the snow trick next time out.
Never known pain like it, chopping me thumb virtually clean off didn't hurt as much at hot aches!
I always get em at the same point everytime - after the first pich either leading or seconding, it don't matter! thought about it and know why I get em then. Long, hot walk in, then stop and gear up - poons on, harness, gear etc. During this time the blood must withdraw from the fingers. Back on with the gloves and slowly start warming again and after climbing the first pitch - bam - the screaming abb dabbs!
Gonna try the plunging in the snow trick next time out.
Never known pain like it, chopping me thumb virtually clean off didn't hurt as much at hot aches!
In reply to Lorraine McCall:
Caramba!!!
> (In reply to Mr Lopez) it looked to me like moving arms very quickly and swearing rather loudly in spanish helped a lot!
Caramba!!!
In reply to KeithW:
the first time i got hot aches i thought i had permanently damaged my hands!! I normally find that as long as I do not cling to my axes for dear life I do not get them too bad.
the first time i got hot aches i thought i had permanently damaged my hands!! I normally find that as long as I do not cling to my axes for dear life I do not get them too bad.
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