UKC

Today's Daily Post (Welsh Edition) says that the all day parking fees at Pen y Pass are to increase. Yesterday we paid £6 for all day parking (and had a superb day on Central Trinity). From April 1st the National Park Authority are raising the all day parking charge to £10. I presume that this will be an all year charge, not reduced for the winter months.

In reply to Tony2:

No doubt some tw@t will be on here in a minute saying 'it's a reasonable proce to pay for a good day out, after all it's only the cost of 4 pints...'

In reply to Removed User:
it's only the cost of 4 pints...'

Only 2 at the pub in Rhydd Ddu !

In reply to Tony2:

I bet the carpark will still be full at weekends in spring / summer / autumn though.

And if it's part empty in winter, I doubt that will be because of the cost.

Si

In reply to SCC:

Even at £6 the cost is what stops me parking there.

The weekend before last, the car park was about 1/3 full, but the laybys near the CC hut were full. How long before pay & display metres are installed in those?

Park and Ride is still not an option as the timetables are no good (last bus is about 2 hours before we get off the hill!)

In reply to Tony2: Not really an option if you're doing the horseshoe, but if you're doing stuff on the Trinities, you could park and ride, and then walk down to Llanberis, then not being tied to the last bus. On the other hand, I refused to pay £6 on Sunday, so parked by the Capel Curig T junction, only an extra half a mile each way

In reply to Toreador:

Not everyone that parks in the laybys does so to avoid paying for parking.
We parked there a couple of weeks back, because it was the best place to park.
And the layby only had a couple of cars in it btw.

I'm not saying that £10 is reasonable for a days parking, don't get me wrong.
I just don't see the increase in charge making much of a difference to the number of people that use the carpark.

Agree about the Park and Ride scheme not running late enough too.

In reply to Tony2:

I just found this link on another thread:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8507800.stm

According to this link the National Park Authority have no statutary right to collect fees at Pen y Pass, or levy penalties. Does anyone know if this is correct?

In reply to

Quit whining, walk, hitch, cycle, get a lift off your mum. You are all supposed to be fit after all

In reply to Tony2: They don't chase you up.

But you should pay really. They do a lot, I'm not a huge fan of the park, but they do some great work on the paths especially.

This has been on the cards for a while, simple supply and demand. Also if its not more expensive that the bus where is the incentive to use the park and ride scheme.

Although I agree with the comments re the time tables. The buses aren't that great.

In reply to IainRUK:

I have no objection to paying...I have parked there 4 times in the past two weeks, but it is the amount they propose. I thought £6 was steep...£10 is taking the p*ss...even for environmental reasons. The buses are every 1 hour 50 mins in winter, with only two return journeys after 13.45. As a service it is not even worth considering in winter. They therefore have a captive market and are taking full advantage of that.

In reply to Removed User:
'it's a reasonable proce to pay for a good day out, after all it's only the cost of 4 pints...'


It is a lot cheaper than parking in some bits of the Lake District. I was a bit more miffed that they've clamped down on parking round Llanberis.

In reply to Tony2: I agree with a lot of that. A better path system should also link up PYG, get people off the road, better buses.

The bus service is poor. Thing is noone uses it, so they won't put more buses on, but if they don't put more buses on over a longer time period, no one will use it.

In reply to Reach>Talent:

I have never paid more than £6 in the Lakes.

In reply to Reach>Talent:

At £6 perhaps, but where in the Lakes charges more than £10 - even the National Trust aren't that greedy!

In reply to IainRUK:

Reduce the cost of the bus fare?

In reply to Tony2:
£10 is taking the piss, and as far as improving the facilities, the cafe isn't great and if it sold food at the reasonable price and was more welcoming to people in muddy boots/wet clothing more people would use it and it could stand on it's own feet, and on top of that the toilet facilities are absolutely rank. I normally walk in or park down at the junction of the A4086/498 but occasionally if it's quiet I'd park at pen-y-pas, now this charge will definitely discourage me from parking there even if it is empty they'll gain f.all from me from now on.

In reply to Richard123: people - even climbers - want to use cars. simple. classic chicken and egg though: poor bus service so nobdoy uses so no justification for more services etc. maybe people need to be forced to use the bus i.e. you can park either end of the Pass but to get in you must walk, cycle or use the bus service?

In reply to gethin_allen: The obvious solution would be to knock down the cafe and toilets and keep the price at £6.

In reply to Removed User:
The obvious solution is a Yosemite style approach - free buses running every 10 minutes, result - everybody uses them. I paid £7.50 to take me and two kids one-way from Pen y Pass to llanberis last year. I won't do that again in a hurry

In reply to Babika:

How do you propose to find these free buses? Taking into account the costs of running a bus and the number of passengers they seem to carry £7.50 probably isn't far wide of the mark.

In reply to Tony2: Why cant everybody quit whinging. The car parks are for day trippers that just want a quick walk in and out. There is a choice pay or park somewhere else and walk in. There is more than one way up. As has already been said somehow things need paying for. After all we all use the hill and only a small pecernatge actually pay for the priviledge of the use of the various paths. Its either this or put a fence round the whole hill and charge evryboody access.!!!
DAN

In reply to timjones:
Thats exactly the point! If you charge high prices nobody gets out of their cars....... result = empty buses = reduced bus service = even less usage......

As Ken Livingstone with his Fares Fair policy proved you have to start a virtuous circle and its a combination of carrot and stick. Either on there own is unlikley to work sucessfully

In reply to Tony2: I've been using the Snowdonia buses for the past six years or so and they're rubbish. Now, funding has run out and they've been taken on by a private company, with reduced timetables. Frequently they don't turn up, and the timetables on the ground often aren't updated on time.

You can get a red rover ticket for £5.40 which lets you take as many buses throughout Gwynedd for an entire day. Not bad value if the bus link ups were actually any good!

In reply to timjones:

And conversely, given the prices and timetable it's not surprising they're usually empty.

If they made them cheap and frequent, and starting early/finishing late, then there's a chance that people will get into the habit of using them. If they do then they'll probably stick with it even when the prices go up later.

At the moment they seem to be trying to force people onto the buses by pricing them out of their cars. But due partly to habit, partly to the poor bus service, they grumble and pay up. This strategy hasn't worked before and it's unlikely to work in the future without a marked improvement in the alternatives.

In reply to IainRUK:


Yep, I don't know if it's changed, but I tried to park and ride a couple of times, the first time I hadn't twigged that however big you make the P+R signs, you still have to trog out to the road and catch the infrequent service bus. 'Cos I'm a rubbish hippy, I'm happy to wait for a bus, but not for over an hour! I reckon they need to unpick the busses from the green key ( whatever state of reanimation it's currently in). You sort out public transport first, then put the disincentives for car use in once PT is working well, as any fule planner no.

In reply to toad: The timetable aren't (and have never been) user friendly.

These days there's only one direct bus from Bangor to Ogwen Cottage, however you won't see it on the standard bus website because it runs from Llandudno to Llangollen (the X6) and therefore is a Conwy bus so it isn't on the Gwynedd or Sherpa website.

The timetables are also filled with incomprehensible codes about holidays, school days, weekends, alternate weeks etc etc.

Last time I complained about the timetables not being updated on the ground I had a long rant about sustainability and the Green Key, and had a useless reply from someone with an extremely unhelpful bad attitude.

My current solution is to save up and buy a car. As much as it pains me to say, I don't give a crap about attempting to use green travel in Snowdonia any more, and I really don't blame anyone else for wanting to drive into the park.

Toad - are you talking about P&R in the Pass at Nant Peris? Because if so (these days) the buses do enter the car park.

In reply to Mike Peacock:
>

Yes, as I inferred, I gave up trying to use the bus a while ago. Has the timetable from nant peris up the pass improved as well? - I'd be happy to try again, though of late I seem to be in the south of the park more.

In reply to toad: Not really no. I'm not sure if Padarn will step up services come summer though.

I think the one advantage of using buses is that you're free to indulge in several post-mountain pints afterwards.

In reply to

More whining, this time about the bus. The thing is with buses like this is they are run on usage, instead of braying about the inconvenience, use the bus and feedback to the bus company about extending their timetable (they won't extend tt for an empty bus after all).

In reply to 3leggeddog: I do use the bus.

As I see it, it's a circle that won't change. People won't use the buses because the times are useless (and, especially in summer, they don't run nearly late enough), so there's no money entering the system, so the timetables will only get worse.

In reply to Tony2: yes, that is exactly what i have heard, from someone who is local to Snowdonia and believe it to be correct. From what i heard, the NPA have no jurisdiction and so they post a nasty letter on your windscreen requesting you pay up. You can just ignore that apparently and nothing happens.
Please dont take my word for it and all park at Pen y Pass for free, check it out first! There must be some legal info online somewhere?
P.S. i havent tested this theory out yet.....!

In reply to LozM: Why advertise this?

Come on, its hardly a nasty letter, its a not esaying you haven't paid, please pay. I've had one when I forgot some money one day, but paid later.

All that will happen is they'll just contract out to clampers or some other solution.

In reply to 3leggeddog:

How can I use the bus when the first one doesn't run until 2 hours after I want to be on the hill, and the last one leaves roughly when I'm topping out on my final route of the day?

In reply to Tony2:

I could cope with the £10 if I knew that some of it was donated to Mountain Rescue.....

In reply to Tony2:

I'm starting to resent paying through the nose to park in the Lakes for climbing/walking etc..

I now go out of my way to find a space on a residential street (Ambleside/Keswick) or a safe layby when out in the hills, problem is, everyone is doing the same.

If they started to charge £10 in the Lakes for an all day ticket, well, I predict a riot...

In reply to Katie86: It isn't all about MRT, it's about maintaining the park as a whole. The day to day stuff, not just the high profile things.

In reply to toad:

You mean for digging up nice uneroded grassy tracks and building ugly stone paths instead?

In reply to Tony2:

£10 isn't unreasonable for a day's sport, particularly if it's a car of 4. Most folk would spend a lot more on a night out. Parking charges are a fact of life.

In reply to Toreador:

Then pay to park or walk or cycle or hitch or ask your mum for a lift. I understand that you think the parking is too expensive, well don't use it then, they will only charge what folks are prepared to pay. If you are starting out at dark oclock I guess the lay by parking will be empty, drop your bags and partner at pyp park and walk back up the hill, not difficult is it?

In reply to Katie86:

Why? why shouldn't the footpath teams get funded? A hell of a lot of money is spent on footoaths especially on Snowdon, that money needs to be recouped

In reply to Trangia:

I talk your point about sharing...

Yet the Lake District National Park seem to have also been clever with the times, up to 4 hours is ok but after that the price just seems to jump.

I think its more reasonable if they gave you say, 6 hours for £4/5 and after that maybe £6 upwards.

I appreciate that revenue goes towards maintaining the park, paths etc but there has to be an upper limit to charges and I think £10 is too high.

In reply to blackpoolrock: This is one car park. If its too high then just walk up the road, hitch or bus, or use one of the other routes up Snowdon.

I think they've gone about this the wrong way, but this has been on the crads, something needs doing, the current situation is poor.

I'm not sure this will help though.

In reply to Toreador:

That's right, because when the hail is knocking your teeth out and you've lugged your tools up 700m by hand, Your absolute first priority is unwarranted and unneccessary damage to the pretty grass tracks, rather than trying to stop half the mountain washing back down the slope in a humongous walking boot derived cackslide.

Footpath repair is ugly and intrusive, but its too damn hard and expensive to do it if it ain't neccessary

In reply to IainRUK:

possibly people wont pay/park elsewhere because charge is out of line with other areas, so the income may go down.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

Which may be the reasoning behind the charging strategy. I think Pen y Pass is a bit of a special case - it isn't big enough to take the many walkers and climbers who want to spend the day and my guess is thet the NP would like it to be more of a short stay for tourists viwing the mountain before heading off to spend yankee dollar in Betws

In reply to Babika:

The buses have to run above break even unless you can identify a means of funding them. What folks seem to be asking for is more frequent buses, running for longer hours at lower prices. Explain how lowering fares is going to make this financially viable?

In reply to timjones: If it was a pure capitalist system, the obvious answer would be to bulldoze a much larger car park. but of course there is a wider planning issue under consideration - Gwynedd/ CCW / whoever wish to reduce the number of people driving up to pen y pass to park all day. Fine. But to do this there has to be a credible alternative. Walking in is not always appropriate. So, one solution is to raise the parking rate (thanks Paul Rogers ), but there also needs to be another form of transport to use - and that is probably going to mean subsidising (at least in the short term) a frequent and reliable bus service.

I'm damn sure whatever incarnation of green key is under consideration isn't the answer, but then neither is the status quo

In reply to toad:

The obvious answer is to tarmac the Miners track up to the first lake. Fill that in and turn it into a car park. The advantages would be that it shortens the walk up the mountain and from an environmental point of view would be out of sight of the road thus not offending the outlook from passing cars and coaches. If that proves a success a dedicated 4x4 track could be opened up to the second lake, part of which could be filled in to provide a 4x4 car park which would give even quicker access to the path leading to the zig zags. The ruined mine buildings could be turned into a tea house with some bunkhouse accommodation, although if that flourished it might become necessary to install street lighting up the two sections of access road.

In reply to Tony2: "The park has no statutory powers to enforce payment, but says most people pay when they hear the cash is used to improve the car park and cafe."

Somethings wrong with this BBc statement.... there is a limit to how much more needs spending on the car park and cafe. The cafe should fund itself anyway.

I thought 5 or £6 ok for a day on the hill .£10 maybe for a car of 4 adults but £10 for an individual or family is OTT . There is no need to use price to deter parking as the limited number of spaces performs the rationing role anyway.If they want a radical solution then it has to involve way more public transport and that isn't going to happen.

In reply to toad: Absolutely. MRT need the paths as well

In reply to timjones:

This is exactly like all the people who said "it'll never work in London" in the 80's whereas cheaper fares and regular services actually caused people to stop trying to drive in and get on public transport, therefore making it financially viable.

Exactly the same with the bus service in Yosemite Valley - and if you can get fat, lazy Americans out of their gas guzzlers and onto public transport that really is amazing.

What it requires is Vision, commitment, central funding to support at the start and bags of positive energy and marketing to create the cultural change in attitude.

But then there is the alternative strategy of course:
"lets put up the fares to cover our costs. Oh, nobody's using them, we'd better put up the fares. Oh, nobody's using them, lets cut the service....etc"

Which is likely to be more sucessful for NPA I wonder?

In reply to Tony2: fff@<>)(* wa*(&^%ers ten quid thats a joke . i know its not a great deal of money but that is just the powers that be being greedy .

thats just my opinion so not after the usual row for having a opinion

In reply to Babika:

I can't speak for Yosemite but the big difference between London and Snowdonia would appear to be a fairly large and predictable target audience in London.

In reply to Rich35:
Well said Rich - but note it is a great deal of money to me on a pension for a short walk to Glaslyn. Of course it's way over the top and they're doing it because they can. Will just go elsewhere.

In reply to dgp:
It's like the Government taxing fags (I don't snoke) - they know people will still pay whatever it costs. People will still fill the car parks in the Lakes and Snowdonia, whatever the price. I've seen people drive past an obvious free Langdale parking spot to get a quarter of a mile further down to the ODG and pay. Unbelieveable.
Also, isn't it funny how the charges escalate after 4 hours. Not many people go out for less than 4 hours from my experience. They know how to lay the charges.
Perhaps one solution is a total boycott of the offending car park for a month or so. They will then have to reduce charges. At the moment they don't give a sh1t, as they know that people will still pay. A bit like the laughable charges at the so-called "Premier" League matches (Division 1 to normal people), yet the grounds are still full.
Don't pay the charge then moan about it. You don't have to pay it in the first place. And as for the crap in the BBC article about people getting a note on the windscreen, then paying the fee plus extra when they've had it explained what it's for, don't bullsh1t us.
Greed is what it's about, and the great British public feed the greed.

In reply to Tony2: Better still - Free of charge to all winter climbing forums members - with reserved spaces - £25 for all others to funding free tea & cakes for returning climbers.

ps cafe wasn't even open yesterday yet still £6! - I did notice though a warden checking ( even though only about 10 cars there...I am sure that's cost effective Mr Mayor)

In reply to timjones:
pretty large and entirely predictable target audience in all 3 I would say. The principles are exactly the same, its just a question of scale of response.

Probably not worth installing the full tube system in Snowdonia though...

I bet if you ask the wardens they know exactly how many cars park on every sunny/wet weekday and weekend for every month of the year. And what % stay 1 hour, 4 hours etc. The target audience is why planners realise they can get away with virtually any parking fee. We are just all too darn predictable to stop parking.

In reply to Tony2: The whole point of the increase in parking charges is to encourage people to keep on driving around all day and burning as much fossil fuel as possible in a given time. Parking your car and turning the engine off should be avoided at all costs!

It can be difficult to adjust to inflation but we'd better start getting used to it. Try thinking of the £10 as £2 of real money. -Good Value. Then ask you paymaster for a pay rise.
If that fails get there the night before, sleep in you car, good value accomodation and loos for £10.

In reply to Tony2: I recently had the misfortune to work for a couple of days in Manchester and due to working in GMEX parked underneath the exhibition and it cost £26.00 so that is £13.00 a day so maybe £10.00 a day isn't that bad a deal and I'm sure that this must apply to most city car parks.

In reply to Tony2:

The thing that really annoys me about this is that the hostel no longer has free parking there either. We went there last year and had planned on getting the sherpa around as much as possible (as we had previously) until we were told we would have to pay parking as well so we just drove everywhere when we could have used public transport, rather than end up paying for public transport and being charged for parking at the same time.
Even if there was a nominal charge for hostel guests parking it would be reasonable, 6 quid a day at the time and now 10...wont be staying at PyP again anytime soon.

In reply to Tony2:
It'll backfire sooner or later when all the tourists go to Scotland instead and the local economies suffer. After years of getting pissed off with NT car parking charges in the Lakes I didn't think N Wales would be worse.
http://www.snowdonia-society.org.uk/news.php?n_id=116

Its like speed cameras. Its not about reducing speed (numbers) but increasing revenue.

In reply to toad:

I didn't say it wasn't. I just said it would be nice to know some of the money was going to MRT...

In reply to IainRUK:

Yet again, another person who refuses to read what has been written!

if "SOME" of it was donated to MRT" Not all of it. I'm not saying ALL the money should go to MRT and having been involved in doing footpath repair myself, which I must add is a bloody hard job, I fully support the need to raise money to repair the paths. Having come down the tourist track on the Ben this weekend, you can see so well the damage done by thousands of feet and the time and effort which has obviously been put into effect to reduce the impact on the environment..

The suggestion of a small donation to MRT was just a thought, when i'm sure a fair number of those who park at Pen y Pass and 'scale' Snowdon, use the services of the MRT.

In reply to Katie86: I don't see why 'some' should be?

Footpath teams get little money, MRT's get money from many sources and I don't think the NPA's should fund MRT's (to any extent). I think its up to the potential user to directly fund the MRT through donations.

Some people do travel to PYP on their own as well (contrary to what some councillors seem to think), and that makes it an expensive day!

I occasionally have a mid-week day off and really enjoy a solo walk. However, having spent about £10 on fuel as well, this means that even the £6 fee has made me use different routes, which is a shame, as I like the ones from PYP.

I have no objection to paying to park if the fee is put to good use, but I think the £10 charge will definitely put people off ...

In reply to judith_sw: Was talking about this to my mrs and she made the point that I (rather crassly) hadn't considered - she said that I (now) wouldn't mind, but that the 20 year old me with the fiesta that fired on 3 cylinders would have been rather more put out, and still wouldn't have been in a position to catch the bus because of the inadequacies discussed earlier.

In reply to Trangia:

the four might be like us, 1 income 2 kids - I'm afraid my kids will see little of Snowdon with charges like this as the freedom to get out to some places is disappearing except for the well off

In reply to wercat: im not in anyway supporting the car park prices in the national park - i agree its expensive - i dont pay, i walk in from somewhere else. but £10 for a day out for a family is pretty cheep in this modern world. as an alternative - how much is the sherpa bus from nant peris? (although it wouldnt suprise me if that is as expensive as the car park)

In reply to wercat:

You're doing well if you can mange many family days out for £10!

In reply to toad:

But to put it in perspective, its only one car park. There are loads of alternative places to park that involve a bit more walking - but walking is what most people are there for any way.

In reply to GrahamD: Agreed, I think. But my (or rather my wifes) point is that I think about these things differently as a 40 year old than as an 18 year old, and at least part of it is about being able to afford the choices.

In reply to Toreador:

I doubt if the the National Park are greedy - strapped for cash yes.

In reply to toad:



Real life in microcosm

In reply to wercat:

FFS come on, look at a map. How does one car park put Snowdon out of bounds, just sounds like an excuse to be lazy.

In reply to IainRUK:

on the contrary it makes me think the area is too expensive for a family visit. we live on a tight budget

In reply to wercat: There's no shortage of free parking about.

In reply to wercat: Wow. Quite incredible that you think all parking would be be £10. There is so much of snowdonia where you can park for free. It's just not on a plate and advertised.