UKC

Obtained a Paramo Velez adventure late last winter. Look after it correctly(washing in Techwash/reproofing with TX Direct etc)

Definately an autumn to spring garment - much too hot for summer.

Works pretty well in mixed conditions - the kind of drizzley stop/start weather where you would be taking a waterproof on and off all day.

BUT on the 2 occasions where I have had prolonged continuous heavy wind driven rain - it has totally failed and the inside has become saturated and heavy with cold water - potentially hypothermia inducing if far from civilisation. Once was with a light daypack in iceland andf once (the worse) last Wednesaday at Llandegla on a MTB skills course, with no pack. The activity level was characterised by standing around for a bit, then pedalling for a bit.

At the moment I wouldnt trust this as my sole waterproof on a commiting hill trip.

Heard so much good stuff about Paramo - am I doing something wrtong, can you get faulty jackets, or do they just not live up to the hype when conditions are really bad?

Anyones experiences would be welcome as I am going to phone Paramo and let them know my experience.

Cheers

David

In reply to David Hooper:

I have a pair of cascada trousers, and on their first outing in the rain they leaked. I sent them back to paramo, who "washed and reproofed" them and said there was nothing wrong with them.

Since then, I really struggle to trust them; I've managed to avoid driving rain fortunately but moderate drizzle shows signs that water's on it's way in and woe betide me if I dream of sitting on a damp rock.

For a £100 pair of trousers I'm pretty disappointed but have pretty much assumed I got a dud pair.

In reply to David Hooper:

I've had my Cascadas in some howlers and never had a problem, upper body was soaked. Moved onto a Velez Adventure Light, only had one real wet day with them but I was very impressed. Hope you get it sorted out.

In reply to David Hooper:

I thought the whole point of Paramo was that you body heat drove moisture back out while you are working.

It's not meant to be fully waterproof is it?

In reply to David Hooper: never been fully convinced they work myself after hearing a number of people encounter the same issues you did.

I think most failures are down to the individual not being active enough. if you are not producing enough heat to keep the inside dry then capillary action will draw more water in, saturating it and overwhelming it.

I am happy with a fully waterproof membrane jacket as Im not a hot running person.

In reply to Removed User: Yes - I know how they are meant to work , but they are marketted and sold as a waterproof. There is even a badge on the sleeve saying "Analogy Waterproof"

In reply to David Hooper: Sorry to hear that David. I used my Paramo gear last Summer in all weathers on the hill and had no problems. I used a Pajaro jacket with Aspira salopettes. It was OK to walk in but then i had to sit around for 3-6 hours and wasn't allowed to move around (would scare off the birds), I popped a Torres smock on when it was windy and wet (a lot of the time), I found the garments were excellent in all weathers. Maybe you just have a weird physiology David?

In reply to ring ouzel:

Ive worked as an mountain instructor and experdition guide since the 1980s. Used all sorts of waterproofs (from my first fluorescent orange sweaty P.U. cag with white cords and toggles)through sympatex, goretex, event and various softshells. I knowe how stuff performs and the pros and cons of diffrent systems.

At the moment I couldnt really trust or recommend Paramo for heavy rain although I will give it another go when conditions permit.

In reply to David Hooper:

I got absolutely wet through in heavy rain when I had one. I tend to run warm, and just plain didn't like the thing, so I sold it on at the earliest opportunity.

In reply to David Hooper:

Mine's been excellent for pretty much everything, apart from one occasion in the alps in a storm. Got water all across one shoulder, and thought it could have been either the seam, of a 4inch rip i have in it around the neck. The rip (although bad) has never let anything in before, but the rain was pretty heavy.

Plus I'd had it for 6yrs by then, and it needed proofing.

In reply to David Hooper:

According to the website, they test for a minimum 4hours resistance to 30mm/h rain, but that is on a dummy, so no sweating or movement (possibly no heat either?). Not sure how that compares to other stuff, but I probably wouldn't expect to be dry in anything after that!

My own experiences with Paramo is that the it will tend to become waterlogged (and heavy) in heavy rain, but that doesn't translate to any transfer of water to clothes that I'm wearing underneath (certainly not enough to make me cold), and will dry very quickly when the rain eases.

Are you sure that the water was getting in through the fabric? Could it have been a problem with the design or fit of the jacket rather than the material?

In reply to David Hooper:

as highclimber - it seems you don't want stop for too long when its pouring with rain !

also i use the their reversible thing next to the skin, and i've been completely dry at the end of a foul day on the hill, when friends have been soaking with usual fleece/goretex combo.

In reply to David Hooper: I've never been convinced that anything will keep you dry in prolonged, driven heavy rain, whether that be hard shell, soft shell or whatever.

For what its worth, my paramo stuff has consistently outperformed anything else in really wet conditions. I can remember doing the exped and night nav section of the ML training (so lots of stopping and starting) in rain of biblical proportions in my Velez(?) smock with everyone else in goretex. By the time we'd got back to the tents I was the only one who was even resembling dry underneath. Make of that what you will I guess but I've never been able to fault paramo.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:


http://www.paramo.co.uk/en-gb/garments/detail/index.php?pgc=NIKWAXANALOGYJA...

These jackets (Paramo Halcon) seem to be designed for the likes of landscape photographers and birdwatchers, both of whom spend a fair bit of time sitting still!

In reply to David Hooper:

I've got a set of Aspira salopettes and a smock (can't remember the model) and have used them when marshalling on fell races in some pretty foul weather - we are talking horizontal November rain - and have been both dry and warm.

It does seem to be an either/or setup with Paramo, it works brilliantly for some people but fails totally for others. I don't know what the cause of this could be: maybe it's a combination of a faulty jacket and different physiology.

ALC

In reply to David Hooper:

Ive had my paramo velez for about 6 years now and im not very goof at washing and reproofing it, but i have always found i am mostly dry even after a long wet hill day. The end of my sleeves do wet out though as the collar too.
They do generally leak around the shoulders when wearing a rucksack.

Personally i have always found it more comfortable than goretex or others, apart from when it froze but thats another story..

In reply to David Hooper:
I've had a paramo velez for about 5 years, and I still practically live in it. It's wet through once(only round the collar and sleeves), in a right downpour wearing a heavy pack, but it still kept me warm. Have taken it on some really long trips in bad weather, and it normally dries out on its own over night. Would definitely buy another one.

In reply to David Hooper: Hello David.

I've used Paramo gear for quite a few years now and I would have to agree with you. The gear is good for a start but despite cleaning and reproofing the garments as reccomended, the items do let in after prolonged periods of rain ie. Scottish summer conditions. Winter time the gear's great but for a summer outing I'd probably take a Gore tex jacket. My wife uses a Paramo jacket for daily dog walking and she would report similar wet day problems.

In reply to David Hooper: I had the same experience with my Velez a month or two back during a three peaks attempt in some admittedly very crap weather (heavy rain driven in by 40-50 mph winds). After about 3 hours it was starting to get wet enough inside to cause me some problems. My theory is it was getting blasted in through the zip, although I was pretty well wet through everywhere.

IMO very little will keep you dry during that sort of punishment, and a light shell jacket over the top of a Paramo during that might just make it watertight. Elsewhere I've had no problem with it and it's superb on the bike at this time of year

In reply to David Hooper:

So a quick straw poll on this thread would suggest 5 peoiple have experienced them leaking and wetting out and 8 people swear by them.

Thats pretty polarised and also quite a high percentage of fails.....Hmmm!!!

In reply to David Hooper: Hello
I've had Aspira Trousers, Nevada smock and Velez adventure smock. I would say the older (heavier duty) stuff was brilliant but that the newer lighter stuff isn't as good in extreme weather. I've gotten soaked in driving welsh 'summer sunshine' in the velez adventure, but then it is a 'multi activity' jacket marketed as being good for cycling and if I'd worn a cycling waterproof I wouldn't have been surprised when I got soaked. The older heavier kit never let me down.

However I'm too tight to fork out for an aspira to see if the current heavier duty kit is still as good as the old stuff so I'll just carry on getting wet!

Wayne

In reply to David Hooper:

This is basically my experience of Paramo. I love my Velez as a kind of softshell-plus, but if it's properly minging and I want to stay as dry as possible (i.e. I'm camping) then I will always take a goretex or Event jacket. It took me a long time to even consider buying Paramo, as my first experience of it was on my ML training course. We had attrocious conditions on our expedition, where deep snow was on the ground when a sudden thaw came in accompanied by very heavy rain. I have never seen it so wet, and I have been to Scotland quite a lot in bad conditions. One of our party had new Paramo kit and he was soaked to the skin. Those of us wearing goretex were much drier (but not exactly bone dry). It may possibly be related to activity - if you are constantly generating heat, then maybe Paramo works well. I know that I have used things like my Montane Epic and Marmot Driclime in really wet weather and my baselayers have stayed dry when I am active but as soon as I stop it becomes uncomfortable.

In reply to Monk:

I think you phrase "soft shell plus" sums it up perfectly.

With the last 2 posts experiencing failure on the Velez that now makes for a virtually 50% failure rate from the experience of folk on this thread.

Im not slagging off Paramo, because it is excellent in its "Soft Shell Plus" role, but it is marketted as a full on waterproof and if it had failed on me in the middle of the Carneddau like it did on my (close to the heated cafe) cycling course last week, I could have been in serious trouble and a potential MRT statistic.

In all fairness I think I should email Paramo now and alert them to this thread. Perhaps some of us are using the kit wrongly, although I dont see how.

In reply to David Hooper:

Just spoken to Paramo and mailed them a link to this thread - watch this space.

In reply to David Hooper: Interesting read - I have a Velez light which failed on the shoulders, cuffs and front pocket in not too heavy rain. I would normally go for the Event jacket on bad days/winter but that fails too when it's really bad.

After washing/reproofing the velez light, i'm waiting for an opportunity to test it again.

Will be interesting to see what Paramo say about it.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Think all jackets will go at the cuffs Anna - thats a kind of cappillary creep going on. Water will also creep up between the jacket hyem and waterprood trousers on any waterproof. Shoulders could be down to rucsac strap pressure - Ive heard this about Paramo as well.

In reply to David Hooper:


It's a bit like online reviews. The only people who bother to comment are the ones who have strong opinions either way. There will probably be a vast majority of people who have tried paramo, quite liked it, thought it was very comfortable, but maybe a bit less waterproof than gortex and a little on the pricey side...

You did ask it the title whether anyone had "...paramo fail on them". Your sample might be a little self-selecting.

Still it will be interesting to hear if Paramo have anything interesting to say. Good idea to email them.

In reply to David Hooper: Yeah - I've never expected a waterproof to be fully so, especially around sleeves/shoulders. Annoyingly it's the pocket at the front that was the worst - soaked me right through. Interestingly my sister had the same jacket on in a different colour/size and she was perfectly dry!

In reply to David Hooper:

paramo will fail when under pressure, so the lining contacts the outer and also when the outer has not been DWR'd sufficiently.

sometimes is seems as though the wind is enough to cause failure on the first, for the second there seems little answer except to try it and if you get wet you know it hasn't been proofed properly.

I used a hand spray for a few years as I preferred to see where the DWR was going, and really soak the shoulders etc to do the best possible.

as for pressure, not much can be done. my aspira jacket has two thin foam strips running down the back, according to paramo to 'increase comfort' but I think this is probably a euphemism for 'keep the fabrics separate so the pressure of your rucksack doesn't lead to a wet back'.

I feel a bit uncomfortable knowing that the waterproofness is dependent on an invisible layer that I don't know may be there or not but by and large it's ok. (yes, i know you can check for beading but it ain't the best test ever).

In reply to David Hooper:
I'm marketing manager at Páramo - Páramo should not 'fail on you' at all! As GT pointed out in his waterproofs test, the Páramo was the only garment that actually kept the 'rain' out in their independent Leeds University Rain Room test. It is submitted to more simulated rain then ever falls in the UK, onto a moving mannequin, and is a better test than 'hydrostatic head' etc. It is the combination of Nikwax treated fabric (to create a hydrophobic fabric) with the unique fabric structure (based on the structure of mammal fur) that is not only designed to prevent the ingress of water but remove any water in the system (perspiration, condensation etc). If a garment needs retreating with Nikwas, heavy rain can overcome the Directionality briefly and penetrate so you will get wet. If one places significant pressure (pushing on the fabric) water can be forced through the system, but it will continue to work to try and push it out. If you have problems with a garment that has been well-cared for with Nikwax Tech Wash and occasional reproofing with TX.Direct, then please contact or customer services on 01892 786444 as this should not happen.

In reply to David Hooper:
Sorry ran out of space there.
Our garments are chosen by significant numbers of Search & Rescue Teams, outdoor instructors, outdoor centre staff, outdoor workers - and they would not choose Páramo if it could not cope with British rainfall. They like it 'cos it keeps out the weather, but also can cope with perspiration and continues to work even in high humidity when conventional breathable waterproofs fail. Also, it is not compromised by puncture - though a large tear will need to be sewn up!

You should be able to rely on your Páramo - plenty of people do and would not dream of using anything else however horrendous the conditions, so it needs sorting!

In reply to Paramo:

Thanks for coming on here to reply. However, there are so many tales of Paramo failing that it can't all be down to a manufacturing error or whatever - I am sure that your QC is better than that. One suggestion is that the wind may play a part (which could certainly account for my friend's experience, which was with brand new jacket [Aspira, I think] and trousers - both soaked through). Is there any other factor that may play a part, such as what is worn underneath, level of heat generated by the wearer etc?

For my part, I really like my Velez but I understand that it is a more lightweight jacket and as such I use it when conditions are wet, but I don't mind ending up a little damp. Usually it keeps me dry. However, due to having witnessed total paramo failure, I won't be rushing out to buy a full weight Paramo waterproof as my only waterproof, even though this would really be the only way to settle my worries. I would struggle to believe in it, and it would be an expensive gamble.

In reply to David Hooper: I've had a few experiences with paramo, none great I'm afraid.

Bought a velez adventure for an autumn trip alone the pennine way. Set out from edale in the rain. By the time I'd got onto kinder scout it had start to leak around the shoulders where my backpack straps were compressing. No big deal I thought. Had to wild camp before crowden as I'd set off late. Tried trying it out overnight which was unsuccessful, it was pretty waterlogged the following morning. By day 2 it was leaking all over the place an no just the shoulders. It rained for the next 6 days pretty much all day. By the time I reached hawes on day 6 I'd had enough and in a fit of rage I binned the velez and got my brother to overnight mail my goretex shell to me.

I know a lot of people will say it's perspiration but that's b****x. I run quite hot
But even after a hard day in the hills my base layer is barely damp.

Now the velez was brand new and I was told it didn't need to reproofed prior to leaving. I've also used another paramo jacket on another occasion and while it didn't leak completely it never tried out over night. I'm now really suspicious of anything that isn't goretex, event and I given a choice I'll never touch paramo again.

In reply to Paramo:

You mean like a rucsac strap, waistbelt, harness, rack of gear on a sling?

In reply to David Hooper:

I'm absolutely stunned to hear about all these failures with Paramo waterproofs!!

I own a Velez adventure light and I have to say it has been, from wear 1, the best waterproof jacket I've ever had! My Arcteryx Theta AR hardly gets a look in any more, the velez is that good.

I'm not a paramo fanboy before anyone chips in, and maybe I've been lucky, but from my experience and with only proofing twice in the last year, I have been blown away by just how good this jacket has been! It has kept me bone dry in all sorts of horrible weather, not a drop gets through it from what I have encountered. If I ever lost mine, I would buy another in a heartbeat before residing to my proshell theta.

All I can think of, is if the failures have been caused by a faulty proofing at the manufacture stage?? Hence why a new jacket leaked on first outing. Have the ones that leaked been re-proofed then tried again?? If so, did the same happen again?

Regards

Arty

In reply to David Hooper:

I have had a paramo, leeked like a sieve the only saving grace bing that they were warm! But I was wet and too me this is a failure for a waterproof..

In reply to Paramo:

Hi Paramo person

Thanks for getting back.

As an AMI member I suscribe to your Mountain Pro scheme and was quite excited to get my Velez earlier this year. I believe in your company and like your ethical policies and have used Nikwax producrs since the year dot.

Ive been working in the hills since the early 1980s and tried all sorts of waterproofs and know the strengths and shortcomings of each.

My Velez seems really good as a sort of "Super Soft Shell" comfortable, stylish, practical and well fitting (I dont understand the issues folk have with them being too baggy - maybe older models?). Its excellent for cold weather mountain biking and walking and climbing in cool showery weather.

BUT when it failed - it transformed into a cold soaking sodden heavy mess, presenting me with a potential hypothermia danger.

I know you say it will continue to try to pump out the water, but if an all day windy downpour is expected - I afraid I couldnt trust it water will come in quicker than it will pump out.

Once wetted out - if it keeps raining Im just going to get wetter and wetter.

Also if Im climbing or srcambling with clients in the rain I will be wearing a rucsac, harness, slings and on multipitch, a bandolier - this is a lot of pressure points for rain egress.

You say it just should not fail and if this happens it needs sorting - but from the anecdotal evidence on this thread at least 50 of folk have had negative and disappointing experiences. Thats an aweful lot you know.

Im kind of loathe to return my jacket for testing because in a lot of conditions it is my first choice - BUT I would be more than happy to return it to you if you thought this would be appropriate- is there such a thing as a faulty jacket - they are not relient on taped seams and users can sort out the proofing?

This icertainly isnt meant to be an attacking thread as in my experience you have a good product - but only up to certain limits.

Unless you can test my jacket and reassure me, I will be using my Velez as a decent and adaptabale all rounder, but investing in a new hardshell again to protect me in bad rain conditions.

Best wishes

David

In reply to jon:

Exactly Jon - as an instructor and guide who works in all weathers I expect my waterproof not to fail when I am wearing the "tools of my trade" so to speak.

In reply to arty11:

Not sure why Paramo polarises opinion so much - threads like this seem to recur every now and again. FWIW I've had an Aspira smock and trousers for about 10 years. They've been used in prolonged Scottish rain and winter blizzards without ever leaking, and I've never been cold either (though I do run hot when I'm moving). So my experience (if the OP is counting votes) is that it's been thoroughly tested and is thoroughly reliable.

In reply to David Hooper:


There haven't even been 50 replies, and many of the 39 replies have been positive.

I'm not sure what you are trying to do, they've offered to sort it but that's not good enough, you seem intent on having a go publicly.

In reply to Papillon:

Both my partner and myself have Aspira sallies, and use for scottish winter, where most of the time they are great. But in torrential rain they have failed, one from new, and both subsequent to reproofing.

failure seams to occur once the outer gets wet enough to stick to the inner (commonly just below the knees) then the water just seeps through and the wet area just expands.

In reply to Papillon: As David said he isn't writing to attack Paramo and their product, more to highlight a problem that people are having.

Why split hairs??

In reply to Papillon:

Sorry that was a typo - should have read 50%

What Im trying to do is have a dialog - emphatically NOT have a go as I admire and support the company. The polarised user experience of Paramo seems very odd. I really want to use it and want to like it (and I mostly do) but the bottom line is it let me down in inclement weather - it wasnt at all waterproof and now I cannot trust it like I can a full on hardshell.

In reply to David Hooper: I don't think the OP is being harsh in what he's saying. In fact he was quite positive about the garment. He seems to be voicing the same concerns that I've had. That during prolonged exposure to heavy rainfall the fabric wets through at a rate faster than the fabric can "pump" the water out. I had the same problem in prolonged rain. It would of been ok if the fabric was able to dry out rapidly. But I simply couldn't dry it out overnight. Sure paramo do produce great clothing if it's used by MRT but I've personally not met one
person who's paramo jacket hasn't wet out in prolonged rainfall.

In reply to Papillon:

I agree about the exaggerated number of replies, but I didn't detect an attack on Paramo from David. Personally I prefer traditional layering with a hard shell and don't have any idea of how or if this type of garment works. However, if I was out with clients in the pissing rain, I'd like to know that I'd be dry enough and warm enough to do my job properly.

In reply to jon:
As I said Jon that was a typo should have read 50% - do a quick count up down the thread. Even 10% failure would be too much.

In reply to David Hooper:

I think the you have an axe to grind and are trying to get a negative image of Paramo on the go. Is it so that Paramo are more sympathetic to your problems with your own kit? The first point of call should always be the company instead of something like this thread.

My Aspira is excellent, Paramo customer services (who I am dealing with at the moment after some velcro on the chest pockets gave way,) are impressing me, unlike this thread, which I think is needlessly harsh.

In reply to Papillon:


I think he meant 50% of folk.

For the record I've never tried Paramo, but would be happy to test one if Paramo man wanted to send me one. I sometimes go out in the rain, so I'd be able to tell you what it's capable of in real life around the market or somewhere.

In reply to David Hooper: Ok. Personally I would be more comfortable having a dialogue with the company privately first, then talking about it publicly.

In reply to David Hooper:

I have a paramo Aspira smock which has never let me down whatever the weather. It was so good that I bought some Cascada trousers a year later. After even 30 or so minutes of heavy rain they start to leak through the knee area, probably to do with where the zips flex or something. They are as good as useless so I wear my smock with my ripped 8 year old Berghaus paclite trousers and stay dry. (I reproof fairly reguarly)

Guess that is 50% works and 50% doesn't work for me.

In reply to jonnie3430:

No axe to grind at all - I like the company, its ethical stance and get a professional deal from them.

I love my jacket most of the time and I am genuinely seeking other folks experiences.

This thread is certainly not an attack and any reputable company worth its salt would welcome the feedback and customer dialog.

Alsso I am in email communication with them and will send my javket back for testing if Paramo want.

In reply to Papillon:
I think the number of replies highlighting wetting through indicates this isn't an isolated problem, and therefore is not solely a individual purchaser to manufacturer discussion.

Having said that for 95% of the time I know the kit is going to function very well, and for the other 5% of the time I'm going to be heading down or to the pub.

In reply to Papillon: As a satisifed Paramo user I am still, always, somewhat wary of using it for say, a week's backpacking in the highlands because of fears that it wouldn't cope with heavy constant rain for multiple days.

I have found myself carrying a lightweight, non-expensive waterproof in the bottom of my pack as an overlayer in case of just such situation as the OP describes. 99% of the time I won't need it but when the heavens really open I know I have insurance. The lightweight layer doesn't have to be super goretex/event because in heavy rain breathability is rather irrelevant.

That might defeat the object of Paramo a bit and I haven't yet had to use that spare layer but it keeps me happy

In reply to jonnie3430:

PS I guess your Aspira is more "heavy duty" than a Velez - dunno if that would be a factor or not.

In reply to yelloman:

Depends what you mean by "wet out." Most Paramo users will tell you the kit often feels damp inside and the surface looks saturated after a while, but I've worn mine in prolonged wind driven rain and wet snow where significant water getting in would mean hypothermia and it's been okay.

In reply to David Hooper:


Yes sorry, I didn't see your post. But as we both said, the instructor or guide should be in a fit state to do his job.

In reply to SimonCRMC:

Hi Simon

Ive worn it in certain conditions and its been fine. But the other week it just gave up - it would have been hypothermia had I not been near a toasty warm cafe. It wasnt damp, it was sodden wet cold and heavy and I still dont know why.

Activity was a bike skills course which meant a bit of standing around, followed by a bit of pedalling so a sort of stop start day really.

I wasnt wearing a bike rucsac, I had Goretex trousers on and a bike helmet under my Paramo hood. We were in a pine forest partially sheltered from the wind driven rain which was exceptionally heavy.

In reply to David Hooper:

Nasty! Glad you were okay. Not surprised you have a different point of view.

In reply to David Hooper: Buffalo + hard-shell, then you will stay dry and it won't matter if you don't anyway.

In reply to MG:

Doesn't that rather defeat the Buffalo system? As I say, I know nothing about this stuff.

In reply to jon: According to the blurb, yes. In practice it works great and it is possible to take off a layer even in drizzle, snow, etc.

In reply to David Hooper:


It sounds like you are weak.

In reply to David Hooper:
Good topic Dave.

I have an old cascada, and I think it's an excellent bit of kit. It's better than any hard shell I've had (I get drenched in sweat in those)and keeps the water out pretty well. The outer does wet out, and if you've got bare arms it can feel clammy, but doesn't leak.

I also have a velez, and have exactly the same problems as you. I put it down to the design, exposed zips at neck and sides plus a storm flap on the inside, which is asking for trouble. To be fair internal flaps seem to be some sort of daft trend in the industry in general, rather than a paramo specific thing.

So my vote is cascada excellent, velez not so good. Someone summed it up with 'softshell plus'. I wear it all the time sept -may, but wouldn't trust it in heavy rain.

In reply to David Hooper:
I think the problem lies in the way they are washed. The machine needs to be clear of detergent. I run a rinse cycle beforehand and clean out the detergent drawer as well as draining the washer sump. Then after washing in Nikwax cleaner or soap flakes proof useing nikwax proofer on a low water cycle ensuring you are generous with the proofer. Finally I give it a blast in a tumble dryer to dry it thoroughly and "set" the proofing. That usually does the trick.

In reply to jonnie3430:

It sounds like you have never actually been outside in bad weather.

In reply to David Hooper:

Have to say I've never had a problem with my Vista jacket (very similar to the Velez Light) and I sweat like a pig in a gimp suit. Spent a couple of weeks ago in a blizzard for 10 odd hours with a fully packed crux ak-47 was bone dry in it. Also use it for biking into work every day - and it's clearly one of the best pieces of kit I own.

The stuff does to be a bit marmite tbh.

In reply to Call-Me-Bryce:

Mines great for biking (in cool conditions) and Im sure it would be OK in a blizzard - which I dont think would make it wet out like persistant rain

In reply to David Hooper:

Was shi**ing it down with snow, and the usual Scottish wet kind. Should have put down that it was still very comfortable to wear the next morning.

Also used it doing the Aonach Eagach. Bivvied in it in my Alpkit bag (sh*t it down with rain all night) and wore it the next day where it proceeded to nail it down for hours and hours and hours... Was dry and comfortable.

I'm sorry to hear that people have had a bad experience with them but I wouldn't right the company off. I see (through work) a hugely larger percentage of hard shells (relative to sales) come back than the Paramo with faults.

In reply to David Hooper:

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread but I've been using Paramo gear for 12 or more years and in all manner of conditions. (My original jacket has been repaired a couple of times at modest cost and is still going strong.) The only time I've had a problem is when I hadn't reproofed a pair of trousers. Contrary to some posts on this thread, I have found it keeps me dry when I'm not moving, even for prolonged periods of several hours. If you are a MIA (or whatever), why not have a word with Alan Kimber: he seems to like it.

In reply to Solaris: Alan Kimbers endorsement was one of the reasons I got one in the first place.

In reply to David Hooper:

Cold wet trousers at 8am in the morning after a good soaking the night before is an acquired taste.

In reply to David Hooper:

Another less than happy user here - bought an Velez Adventure Light, but realised pretty quickly that marketing it for high activity sports like mountain biking was pretty disingenuous, as it's far too warm to wear biking for most of the year, and too heavy/bulky to carry as a 'just in case' layer in a small pack. When I did wear it in heavy rain, I found water leaked through it to a degree I found unacceptable. I've since sold it and gone back to a Gore-tex jacket.

Just for balance though - I did a winter mountaineering course last year led by someone from one of the Scottish MRTs, who used an Aspira jacket and salopettes and absolutely loved them.

To be honest, the most reliable jacket I've ever had was a Lowe Alpine Triplepoint ceramic, which kept the rain out from day one, and still does a job of work for one of my mates, who blagged it off me as a work jacket. It's a real pity that they couldn't compete with the marketing.

In reply to David Hooper:

dont take this the wrong way david, but...

...youve been out there since the 80s right? surely by now youve seen that aside from infinte variables, a lot of gear/textiles is talked-up hype.
nothing has ever been the wonder stuff it claims to be - paramo, goretx, event etc.
youve been the victim of marketing.

sure, some people have had great success with the stuff. but that guarantees nothing.
ive found the same bit of gear works differently on different days due to factors i may or may not understand.

if the stuff 'fails' write it off and get something new. move on.

also: its britain. probably the most complicated environment to expect a garment to live up to. its a bit silly thinking anything will. if it does its a phenomenom that may not be repeated.

yep, it sucks when specialized gear doesnt work, but half of its expecting too much from it to begin with. the gear is standardized - you and the environment are not. somethings gotta give.

In reply to Root1:

My god. I don't want all that crap, I just want a simple waterproof. As someone above has said it sounds like it's a bit Marmite. Also, if you've been seduced by blurb and splashed out lots of money, most people aren't going to admit it doesn't work.

In reply to jon:

If you want simple, get a rubber raincoat.

The steps that Tripehound described are pretty much the same as for Goretext-type jackets if you want the best performance out of them.

In reply to jam:

Thanks for the advice.

In reply to jon:

>Also, if you've been seduced by blurb and splashed out lots of money, most people aren't going to admit it doesn't work.

True about all of it - Goretex, Event or proprietary over engineered crisp packet. I don't mind being wet as long as I'm not cold. That's what the dry set in your bag used to be for.

Regards

D

In reply to David Hooper:

David,

My experience of Paramo comes from my mate always banging on about how good the stuff is until the day we descended off one of the Chamonix Aig's for 3 1/2 hours in a thunder storm.
By the end of the experience, he was totally sodden , shivering & very close to hypothermia. Meanwhile, I was kitted out with a light weight gortex & tradional layering system, dry underneath & able to function as normally as you can considering the circumstances.

I couldnt tell you what Paramo item he was using other than he has been starngely quiet on the subject ever since

In reply to David Hooper: I will have to go on record as saying yes mine has failed twice. The first time was not long after I had got it and it was still very new, the second time was in driving rain.

However I will also say that my Velez Smock kept me warm when I was moving even when completely soak, once was in a freezing Scottish downpour.

To Paramo: products fail not every garment, tent or boot, but they will and Paramo products are no different. I found just like any waterproof jacket, keeping it clean and washing it often with Nikwax works. But didn't think I'd need to do this before wearing, which I should have done and certainly didn't think I would have to do it as often. In heavy rain, anypoint on the jacket under compression will let in water, my cycling and previous mountaineering gotext jackets just didn't do this.

As for MTB in Paramo, there are much better designed and more suited jackets, go buy one. Paramo is far to baggy and flappy for my liking on a bike (maybe desing a ccling specific) and when I fed this back to them and the fact that maybe the draw cords for the hood could be lower down the chest like most jackets the response wasn't great.

I'll still up hold my smock is great, customer service could improve. But maybe I will try a Furtech next.

S

In reply to jam:


Not sure I have ever washed a goretex waterproof. They seem to work fine.

In reply to jam:

To be frank, I have tried paramo, event, goretex etc. and nothing is really that much better in the cold and wet than wearing wool under a well-made non-breathable waterproof (PU coated nylon or rubberised cotton). As long as the design has plenty of vents and you take it off again when it's not actually raining then it is a pretty comfortable combination. Paramo et al are better at dry weather comfort and a bit nicer to wear in warm wet conditions but I'm gradually going back to more traditional materials. I swapped my paramo jacket for a ventile one which I much prefer.

In reply to sasmojo:

TBH I've found the same with my furtech jacket as my aspira, it's the concept not the materials (furtech is the same, uses slightly older, heavier lining).

In reply to winhill:

I used Paramo when it first came out; the centre I worked at had it on trial, so as instructors we got it at half price in return for giving feedback on it. Its properties, very different to Goretex, made it superb work wear.

This talk of "failing" is over-dramatic and unrealistic. If it rains hard enough, then whatever you wear won't keep you dry. If its windy enough, then whatever insulation you have, wont keep you warm (it'll compress and no longer function).

I've been out in full Goretex and layer system, and suffered the same fate as you. The garment didn't fail, the weather did!

As someone with so many years experience, I'm suprised that you expect a clothing sytem to be invincible in areas. It can't be.

If you wear Goretex or similar, then you'll stay drier for longer if you dont move much in really heavy rain, but for the rest of the time, you'll be sweating your bollox off in it no matter what the marketing men say. Take your pick.

Btw I no longer use Paramo, as my activity better suits a softshell with a super light rainshell in reserve. But if I did a lot more mooching around in mediocre weather like I used to, then I would.

In reply to danm:


The problem with this is that I, and others, have seen Paramo fail (i.e they become soaking wet) when Goretex wearers have stayed dry. A test doesn't come fairer than that. Both people were in exactly the same conditions at exactly the same time doing exactly the same thing. That is why I trust my goretex more than Paramo. Still, it's all personal - I've never really had an issue with condensation inside goretex or event unless my jacket has been very old and dirty.

I love my Paramo jacket though, so I am not Paramo-bashing here, I just choose what to wear based on what I expect to encounter when I am out.

In reply to Monk: Yes, but others (myself included if you read my other post up there somewhere) have seen the polar opposite occur yet I'd be an idiot if I tried to describe that as a 'fair trial' to prove that paramo is perfect and goretex is crap - come on mate!

I have been in goretex when that has 'failed' (i.e. I've got soaking wet in a downpour) only I took that as par for the course, nothing apart from staying in the cafe is going to keep you dry in really horrible conditions in the UK.

I don't use paramo that much any more really so aren't desperately trying to defend it but it's getting some unjustifiable stick with all this 'fair trial' nonsense.

And never had a problem with condensation with goretex ever?!? It's a problem to some extent with pretty much every brand of waterproof. Maybe you need to work harder going uphill!

>it's getting some unjustifiable stick with all this 'fair trial' nonsense.


I know the Parmamo man quoted their trials but obviously there's a bias.

has there been an independent test of different waterproofs and what did they find?

And although goretex needs a thermal gradient to push water vapour out, I was under the impression from paramo technical speak that the fabric itself did this job for them, meaning even if you just stand there all cold, you shouldn't see less performance.

In reply to danm:

I don't think it's over-dramatic. To be sure, Goretex etc. won't keep you 100% dry in all weathers, but on the whole a well-designed hardshell will keep out the rain. It's just that in prolonged exposure to really extreme weather, it will sometimes let some water in (probably through neck, cuffs, pockets etc.).

What is being discussed here are cases of failure which with most other products would be deemed 'catastrophic' - people getting completely soaked and very cold in a product which is specifically designed to prevent that.

This is my own experience of Paramo - a pair of Paramo trousers, relatively new so never washed, which soaked through completely in an hour of wind-driven rain, to the extent that my boots also filled with water. Needless to say, I've not worn them since. Goretex keeps me dry in most conditions, and when it doesn't, I get a bit wet, not completely drenched.

For the record, my wife's experience of Paramo is more varied - one jacket which kept out all weathers for 15 years, and its replacement which leaked a substantial volume of water on its first outing, in weather which was wet but by no means desperate.

In reply to Aly:

Sorry, I did mean to include the fact that there were some polar opposite examples. I was getting at that when I mentionted that it was a bit of a personal choice. I was mainly just trying to outline the reasons for my own position with respoect to Paramo. I struggle to trust it when it is really lashing down for prolonged periods. The only way for me to cure this is to get a full weight paramo jacket and test it, but this would be an expensive gamble.

And I genuinely haven't had much problem with condensation in goretex, although I do accept that this is a fairly unusual experience. I do only tend to wear it when I really need to though, and have developed a system that works well for me over many years.

In reply to danm:



I agree. I did look at the Paromo Velez but decided against it. Too much for one garment, it made sense for me to spend the same on different garments for specific jobs (one a Paromo which has been great). The Velez looked like a very good soft shell with some waterproofing, but I could see it would never have the waterproof capabilities of a hardshell.

Manufacturers do seem to promise the moon on the stick but I think most consumers realise there will be limits.

In reply to David Hooper:

The smock I had(which failed) was used on an ML Training. there were a variety of coates materials and jackets in use and the weather was torrential. The Paramo without doubt was the worst performing I may as well have worn a towl. The other jackets all had damp collars and some of the cheaper models had leaks on the front zip but all kept the core dry.

I did contact paramo and was offered another jacket which i used and which was just as bad.

I followed all instruction tried nik wax etc (the jackets were all new) but they were usless in the wet.

It was a very comfortable climbing jacket so i only used it as a fleece after this..

In reply to David Hooper:

Something else interesting, other than FOR or AGAINST, is emerging from this thread. It's the amount of gear that folk have got... I'll start the ball rolling by saying that I'm a guide who has lived and worked in the Alps for almost 21 years. During that period I've earned my living solely from that activity winter and summer alike. I do far less now than a few years ago and this year have done almost none due to the problem of arthritis. During my most active period I'd say that I've owned maximum two outer shells and one pair of overtousers at any one time. I've had to work in all weathers and in all situations from working in the pissing rain on the Mer de Glace to walking the Haute Route to climbing classics like the Kuffner for example.

I remember a thread about soft shells from sometime last year. One poster was asked how many shells he'd got, as it was becoming obvious that the answer would be well into the plural, and he answered sheepishly, but with a tiny bit of smugness '23'. So, come on guys how many outer shells do you own? Please be honest and don't see this as piss taking as I think the results might amaze people. Or not...

In reply to David Hooper: a number of people saying goretex wont keep you dry.

well i have a mountain equipment ogre, i have proofed it twice in 4 years, it has never leaked.

In reply to jon: I probably have 5 (heavy duty Parama), then 4 running jackets (old OMM hood ripped still worn if others wet), goretex paclite, Sprayway (freedbie from a magazine), mammot (extremely light weight).

I like to have a few to run in so I can change them over and let them dry fully between runs, also they are all different thicknesses; the very light weight one is fine but does wet out after a few hours.

In reply to jon: 1 + about 90% of an old one (the 10% being on barbed wire, grit etc.) 2 buffalos, old and new, and a thin fleece.

In reply to jon:

I have to confess that I do have more mountaineering clothing than I can use at any one time. Partly this is because I can't resist a bargain, partly because I am curious about different systems, and partly because my old stuff refuses to wear out!

I have two pairs of waterproof trousers - some old ME Karakorum pants which I have had for 10 years and some £10 regatta trousers that are very light which I carry in the summer. I have a Rab Event jacket as my main jacket, and a Paramo Velez which I bought on a whim when I was feeling flush. I also have a Marmot Precip which I use in summer and when cragging. I also have 2 old goretex jackets that leak a bit that I use when doing dirty jobs in the wet etc, or lend out to people who don't have anything.

I do have a fair number of insulating jackets/softshells too, but most are pretty old and knackered now, and all get used at various times.

In reply to David Hooper: I'll confess I'm a complete gear whore, I've got mammut logan, MH argon (bit too small), Mammut extreme cho oyu (never worn too big), westcomb iMirage for snowboarding and dossing about town in the rain. One paramo velez (bought, worn for 6 days on pennine way and thrown away)

Personally i've never cleaned any of my gore tex or event jackets and none have failed or let water in.

In reply to jon:

I own one light paclite smock and a pair of paclite trousers. These get rarely worn, but are often carried.

I own one "proper" gore-tex jacket and a pair of proper sallopettes.

I also own a softshell jacket, a driclime and a windproof top.

I own one pair of fleece lined trousers, one pair of stretchy Scholler trousers and around three pairs of cragging trousers.

I own one lightweight insulated smock and two hooded belay jackets, but I was given one of these.

This seems quite a lot of kit, but it all gets used and is all different. I'm sure I don't need it all, but I don't think I own an excessive amount.

Judge me...

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


I think that's the best way. Some of the problems on this thread seem to come from folk spending huge amounts (more than I ever would) on one jacket to do everything.

1 hardshell
1 bike specific
1 lightweight (clibing)
1 duvet jacket

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


I wasn't meaning to be judgemental Tom. I just thought it'd be an interesting exercise - and unfortunately a hijack, for which I apologise to David. I'll admit I've got tons more stuff than I mentioned above, but it's all stuffed and I don't use it on the hill anymore - I can't throw things away 'cos know I'll get some more use out it somehow (like a lot of people I'd guess). I meant people who say, go to Stanage at the WE. It rains so they go and buy up half of Outside. Retail therapy. Nothing wrong with it if it makes you feel good.

In reply to jon: Okay Jon i'll continue this thread by saying 3 outer jackets. One old Patagonia Ether jacket which is Goretex and leaked during a very wet ML assessment 10 years ago but is okay for walking the dog. A Paramo Velez jacket that has wet out a few times but tends to work for me, and a Montane £40 jobby that lives in my rucksack along with a RAB softshell jacket that has served me well over the years.

I'm a great advocate for the pile clothing that Buffalo and the like produce having first used them as a young Royal Marine in Norway in all sorts of conditions. Again its horses for courses though as they are bulky.

In reply to David Hooper:

I have an Aspira smock (and before that a Velez smock). The Aspira is my main winter garment, and for that it's unbeatable, in my book. As stated above, it's not really a water proof garment, and in driving rain, where inner and outer touches, or along pressure points such as where wearing a pack, it will eventually wet through. However, moisture will always be driven from the skin and outwards, and it dries super-quick.

The only problem I have with Paramo is the poorly designed cuff closure, a sort of weird combination of elastics, pop studs and velcro. They're hopeless to operate with gloves on. In fact, they're hard to adjust properly even without gloves. A simple die-cut velcro flap would have been perfect. On the Aspira I also find that the pit zips have a tendency to gradually work themselves open.

It's warm, yes, but for ski touring use, it rocks. The long side zips makes ventilation very effective

In reply to David Hooper:

I switched to Paramo 3 years ago. It would now be my first choice for an expedition in Scotland in any weather.

Most of the alleged failures described above sound to me like the normal behaviour of a slightly dirty jacket in extremely wet and windy weather. Under these conditions the jacket may appear to be soaking wet. However do not be fooled. The bit that matters - the thin layer closest to your body - will in fact be bone dry.

I think people expect too much from jackets. Paramo isn't perfect but neither are any of its rivals. Paramo's phenomenal durability makes it the best of the bunch overall.

In reply to David Hooper:

I bought a Paramo garment a few years ago. The first time I wore it I was over a down duvet and I was cold just walking down Union Street in Aberdeen on a cold and windy Saturday afternoon. In my opinion it wasn't properly wind proof. Later the same day I was fine wearing a normal and windproof Gore-Tex shell over my down duvet. After that there's no way I'd ever trust a Paramo shell on the hills in severe conditions.

In reply to jon:
ok, since pandoras box is now open:

1 hybrid soft/hardshell
2 lightweight shells
1 proshell thing from work
1 windshell
2 membrane softshells
2 synthetic fill + pertex things

only really use a lightweight shell, wind shell and membrane softshell - rest are from work or impulse buys.
never been a big user of the fullweight hardshell. in fact hardshells dont interest me really - but the quest for the ideal base/midlayer does and thats where i score big.

In reply to spl:

Ha ha that must be the best review and condemnation of a jacket I've ever read

In reply to Removed User:


Not really; that's more the Pile/Pertex concept. Paramo works by capillary depression, which provides a small force that encourages the water to move to the outside of coniform channels that form in the proofed micropile liner (the pile faces outwards).

As for the 'Waterproof' tag, yes, I'm not sure how they get away with that, since, technically, I don't think Paramo will withstand the HH test (1500mm, IIRC), required by the BS for waterproof items. But, since they've been doing it for so long, I guess there must be some agreement/acceptance by Trading Standards. 'Funtionally Waterproof' might be a better description.

In reply to spl:


Ermm... wasn't the down jacket rather windproof? They generally are, as fabrics that aren't adequately windproof tend not to be downproof either...

A fabric that isn't entirely windproof isn't necessarily a bad thing...

I don't own a single piece of Paramo, BTW, before I get accused of being a Paramophile.

In reply to captain paranoia:

It's well known that the granite edifices of Union street cause super cooling of north sea wind blowing in from the dockyard. It's easy to loose one's nuts or worse popping outside the pub for a snout.

Regards

D

In reply to David Hooper: yes, many times all for different reasons, and also different jackets to

In reply to the real dr gav:

Hi Dr Gav

The layer closest to my body was minging, saturated, sopping, soaking, heavy and cold

I had previously seen the forcast and had freshly washed, proofed and tumble dried the jacket.

I really want to trust my Paramo. Its a very comfortable and easy to wear piece of kit - but there are just too many anecdotes of failure on this thread.

Ive had Goretex tops and particularly LKowe Alpine Triple Point Ceramic tops in the past that have been absolutely bombproof.

In foul weatherr its a given that even the best waterproof will let in around the hood, hem and cuffs by capillary action and the fact these are natural openings.

Im going to give the Paramo another fair shot next time the weather is bad, but carry a hard shell just in case it fails. If it does I will send it back for testing.

I dont really understand how there can be so much variation in feedback between different users. Folks physiology isnt THAT different. Maybe peoples perceptions of apparently foul conditions varies. Who knows?

At the end of the day - if an expensive garment is sold as a waterproof, then surely we can expect it to be a waterproof?

Paramos strength, I think is its ethical manufactuire, its longevity, its comfort to wear and its usage over a wide range of conditions - especially coolish and drizzley stop start weather. Im still to be convinced as to its continually foul weather protection properties.

For me a well designed hardshell ( not alpine style - short techn ical cut with exposed zips)would still be the best for foul British conditions - the downside is that a hardshell membrane or coating will slowly wear out.

In reply to gav: I have a pair of their trousers too and I've had problems with them in heavy rain. They're comfy and generally keep me warm but their not waterproof - but can anything be with a zip all down the side of the leg.

In reply to David Hooper: Well I don't care what any of you say: I like my Paramo jacket. It's not especially heavy, not too warm, has kept me drier than any other jacket I've had and is very comfortable and pleasant to wear.
So there.

In reply to OMR:

are we still going on about this?

can someone send me one to test as I've no idea

In reply to David Hooper:

I agree, it is puzzling and that's why this is a worthwhile thread.
But I've been climbing for over thirty years and have experienced most that these wonderful Isles can throw at us in the way of foul weather (though probably not to the degree that Alan Kimber has), and as I indicated earlier, I have no complaints about the waterproofness of Paramo gear.

It'll be interesting to hear how the story of your experience with Paramo unfolds...

In reply to David Hooper:
Guys this wetting out I have also experienced while wearing my Furtech Claw which is similar to Paramo. I also experienced very high winds and almost horizontal rain, the jacket was absolutely soaked after a day walk in brecon. The jacket was proofed beforehand and works well during normal weather keeping me very dry and warm. I contacted Andy Davis the owner as i thought there was a defect with the material, he told me that nobody else has experienced this. I do wonder if the conditions I experienced were so extreme that it just over powered the jacket, I did stand in my shower with the jacket on and the water just ran off and I was bone dry. I have since bought an alta 2 and velez adventure, but not been in the same conditions. Wish I knew what the conditions were for certain, but i suspect high winds, if i had a wind tunnel in my shower i could recreate the conditions !