UKC

Sarah Flint takes a look in to the world of women's ice climbing.

"It's more dangerous than any other form of climbing – it's run out, there's the possibility of gear ripping and ice falls. It's an acquired taste" says Leanne Callaghan.

Are there many women operating at a high level in this sometimes risky and arduous facet of climbing?

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3463

In reply to UKC Articles:

"How many recent news items about ice climbing women have you seen in the climbing media?"

It so happens that the first name of any gender that pops into my head when I hear the phrase "ice climbing" is Ines Papert as (taking the broad view of someone who only reads a very small amount of the climbing media) she seems to get more coverage than anyone else.

In reply to Blue Straggler:


She is one of the best climbers in the world of any gender which I guess explains it.

I ice climb with a number of women all who lead at least some time, and in Finland there are some very competent women ice climbers that no one outside of the country will have ever heard of - but doesn't stop them being dead hard! http://www.rollomixed.com/2011/02/boys-spray-women-send.html

In reply to TobyA:

Indeed, and that's kind of my point. Sarah Flint seems to be imagining some sort of sexism where it doesn't really exist, IMHO. It seems to be endemic to her writing.

In reply to UKC Articles:
I always look forward to Sarah's articles. Its nice to see there's still room for wild generalisation in the media.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I suspect what's happened is that UKC have commissioned Sarah to write articles about womens climbing to target that market (which is incidentally something UKC does better that any other sports website i use). Because of this it seems like Sarah write a lot of articles about women climbers/climbing for women/gear for women.

If UKC have noticed a shortfall in there female content and sought to correct that then it's a step in the right direction

In reply to UKC Articles:

Sarah Flint could have interviewed Heike!
Hope I don't embarass by mentioning her, but she's got some great ticks under her belt and probably climbs harder in Winter than the majority of the male posters on this site.
There are quite a lot of good female winter climbers about. They might not be grabbing the headlines like Leanne Callaghan and Ines Papert but they are about.
One point I'd like to make is that technique remains much more important than gear in this discipline, despite the shiny new stuff.

In reply to es:


I have no issue with this! yhm

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Sarah Flint seems to be imagining some sort of sexism where it doesn't really exist, IMHO. It seems to be endemic to her writing.

I didn't notice any mention of sexism in the article. As I read it she highlighted a perceived general reluctance of women to lead ice climb, based on her own experiences. When the climbing media is mentioned it is in the context of their being very few women leading hard, not as a complaint of bias in the media.

So in fact I believe you are countering claims of sexism that were never made, a reflection on the attitude you and others bring to Flints articles if I may be so bold?

In reply to Sargey:

" just for bearded blokes"
"fish tank of testosterone" sets the agenda

and later we have the rather distasteful
" her man belaying below her"
Would an article describing a male leader's female partner as "his woman" be acceptable?

Maybe the generalisations about female ice climbers generally seconding is true in europe, but you do seem to see more women leading harder ice routes in Canada. There are still a lot more male teams out on the hill in the Canadian rockies, but plenty of women taking their turn on the sharp end too.

its actually "NO LONGER just for bearded blokes"

So it means ice climbing is increasingly enjoyed by women as well as men, with the bearded aspect just a small joke to embellish the sentence. What is the problem?


Climbing in general is male dominated in participation (it seems to me, as many "sports" are), the article is arguing this is even more true in ice climbing. Do you believe this is false, or do you reject any raising of gender in the article?


The article is about gender! It's within the context of the earlier description of women generally seconding men rather than leading pitches and is not at all sexist as far as I can tell.

In reply to Sargey:


I'm bowing out of this. Your points are reasonable. I maybe carried some baggage from Sarah's other articles over into this one. Sorry.

In reply to Sargey:

I agree with most of your points, but I have to admit that 'fishtank of testosterone' made me wince. Generally speaking I would say that although climbing has a male bias, those males are generally not the testosterone-rich type that you would find in a boxing gym, football field etc.

In reply to UKC Articles:
I think its great that UKC are dedicating more "column inches" to a more female orientated look at climbing. Its more that Sarah Flint's writings always seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that there is a great deal of sexism in climbing. Sure, climbing is male dominated, as are many other sports, but this doesn't make it necessarily sexist. I cringed at the reference to testosterone. Monk sums it up best when he says how climbing isn't really the kind of competitive atmosphere that can be indicative of this (gym, boxing, football pitch etc)

The writing is also laden with sexist undertones and an overpowering urge to pigeonhole and generalise. As people have mentioned here there are bags of girls out there who aren't afraid of leading hard or scary stuff, on rock or ice. Ines Parpet, Hazel Findlay, Beth Rodden, Lucy Creamer, Katherine Schirrmacher are all regular names in the headlines. Excuse my ignorance on those who climb hard on ice, its not really the discipline that I follow.
Some girls don't like scary leads just as some guys don't like scary leads.
Having taught a fair few female fresher's how to climb this year I can vouch for them not being reluctant to throw themselves into positions that they might find scary.

Perhaps Sarah could write an article that appeals to the female market without the initial condition that all women are big scaredy cats with high pitched voices and all men are grunting Neanderthals just desperate to stick their knob in something.

In reply to Will Hunt: Seconded!

In reply to UKC Articles:

I emailed a link to this article to an ice climbing friend (female obviously) thinking it would really inspire her before our trip to Norway in a couple of weeks.

Her response? - "I’m happy just to follow you up the bit of rope Dave and do all the cooking when I get home."

Hmmm ...

Dave

In reply to Will Hunt:


Nailed it.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I didn't think it sexist but did smile at the idea of a women's ice climbing school. Imagine the furore at the idea of a men only ice climbing school. But I can't really be bothered to get too worked up about it.

In reply to UKC Articles: Men only ice climbing school=best idea EVER.

In reply to Will Hunt:

There's no sexism in climbing Will. Never has been, never will be. Completely level playing field.

You new man you!


As an American comedian once said, Lenny Bruce I think.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:


Why smile? It's been happening in the states for years. http://www.chickswithpicks.net/chicks-with-picks/

In reply to UKC Articles:
From what I've seen whilst out and about and based on the climbers I know, climbing is a male dominated activity and winter/ice climbing is even more so. Which is a shame but that's just the way it is, presumably because women are, in general, less prepared to suffer and stick their necks out. This isn't meant to be a sexist comment. Perhaps they're just being sensible!

In reply to Will Hunt:

I agree completely. I always cringe when I see one of her new articles appear on here, as I know exactly what to expect from it. The actual content is never insightful or even worthy of an article IMO, and the writing style too 'try-hard'.

In reply to UKC Articles: Fish tank of testosterone!

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

Hang on a minute? Are you purporting that the UKC forums and posts therein are representative of climbing in the United Kingdom and are written with a great deal of forethought?

Now that WOULD be a story worthy of publishing.

In reply to UKC Articles: Would UKC like a picture of my fish tank of testosterone? It's not a pretty sight....

In reply to ali k:

Ali, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that, frankly the whole article made me cringe (yet again). Sorry Sarah, but a bit less of the patronising tone and a bit more of interest would be nice, ta.

Also, 'their men'? What the hell? I'm pretty sure none of my [male] climbing partners would be at all pleased to be referred to as 'my men' (although a couple may like the idea as long as it carried other connotations too ). But seriously, drop these god-awful patronising/sexist (delete as applicable) phrases from your articles and get over the whole feminist thing, please, it would make your stuff oh so much more readable.

In reply to groovy_nut:

Ironically, it's not feminist at all. The majority of the article actually reinforces outdated and negative stereotypes.
I'm boring myself now, so that's all I'll say.

In reply to Wee Davie:

Indeed, I completely agree actually Davie, the article isn't feminist (and yes, I am in a very bad mood, so I don't mind boring myself for a bit!), my phrasing may have been misleading there - I'd just like to encourage Sarah to shift away from attempting to bring feminism into climbing with her articles. Of course, I could be misreading things, but much of what I sense from her writing involves a desire for her to 'empower' women as climbers and individuals...

Sarah, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, I don't mean to cause any negative feeling, but quite frankly, if someone ever called me something like 'ice maiden', I'd not be happy about it unless it was very much tongue in cheek. We're all simply climbers, why does there need to be a gender distinction (and I'm not saying that I don't find accounts of female ascents inspiring, I do, but not simply because 'they're women so it's impressive')

In reply to UKC Articles:

Sarah, I enjoyed your article, and kudos for having the guts to touch on aspects of climbing (not just ice climbing) that women generally do struggle with more than men: fear of leading/falling/getting hurt falling; strength; dealing with the cold; finding women to climb with who are prepared to lead and try harder routes (I only climb moderate alpine routes and struggle to find female partners, but then, I live in NZ, where the alpine climbing community is VERY male dominated).

And congrats on your first ice lead : )

In reply to Sargey:

Well said.

In reply to Francesca E:

If the climbing world is male dominated, whose fault is that? Men's? Women's? Society's. I tend to think the latter. It would seem to be across the whole spectrum of sport. That said, these women only courses like that Chicks with Picks thing, only fuels an anti male stance. How on earth can that help?

I've never been to NZ, so I can't comment on the male domination, but you do have a formidable role model, the like of which we don't have here, in the form of Lidia Bradey... doesn't that help at all.

In reply to jon:

i don't know much about the Chicks with Picks course but I don't agree that female-only courses necessarily "fuel an anti male stance". There could be a number of women out there who'd like to do a course but, for whatever reason, feel that if they were (say) the only woman in a class of six, they might not enjoy it, they might feel excluded etc. I remember attending a few LadyFest events and not being allowed to go to the DJ-ing workshop as it was for women only, and this made sense to me.

Anyway, I'm off to write an article about men are the oppressed minority struggling to get into aqua-aerobics classes

In reply to Will Hunt:

Your post is penis-fixated. Sexist!

In reply to groovy_nut:

I think a gender free article, without reference or innuendo, purely on some element of mountaineering may well be beyond her means.

I would say ice climbing competitions have never been considered for the bearded brigade, generally attracting the younger end of sport climbing and tech mixed folk.

Ms Summo has been climbing ice for way over a decade and introduced her female friends to it, crazy eh! Girls climbing with girls whatever next?

Perhaps the author should have spoken to some of the Lodge or Brenin staff both past and present, (rosie, hannah, heather, louise, glenda, helen list goes on....).

In reply to Blue Straggler:

When we lived in the UK, Mrs J worked on a few of these. I remember one was organised by Brede Arkless - who, by the way, never had any problems fitting right in with male climbers - and beating them at their own game. Anyway, every one of these courses (and as I said, I'm only talking about a few) attracted an element who certainly WERE anti male. This was all it took to nurture that feeling within the group and turn it around from what should have been a positive learning experience. Mrs J found herself to be in an impossible position and turned down other similar offers of work.

In reply to jon:

Brede would have been seething inside

In reply to UKC Articles:

You mean people have actually *read* the article?!! :¬0

I just looked at all the pretty piccies ....

;¬)

Dave

PS I happen to know quite a few female cavers. Some are CICs; all are technically competent at rigging and de-rigging big SRT pitches. There's never an issue of testosterone fuelled male:female superiority underground. Crawling in mud is a really good leveller ...

In reply to Dave Williams:

Though there must be an issue with beards. Every caver I know has one, male or female. Oooops!

In reply to UKC Articles:

I thought it was quite a good article. It simply points out that very few women lead hard ice, speculates on why that may be (lack of willingness on their part to suffer or put themselves in a scary position compared to men) and encourages more women to do just that. I don't think it at any point attempts to 'put the blame' on men or women - people are trying to read more into it than is actually there.

One very interesting development is that this winter season, for the first time ever (at least in Britain), a woman (Ines Papert) has managed to put up a new line onsight at more or less cutting edge standard (IX,9).

In reply to jon:

Agreed in the 70's and 80's it was all beards and real ale but now, as with ice climbing, caving is no longer just for bearded blokes. It's all multi LEDs, cool anodised Petzl gear, spray tans and, not forgetting, all the athletic svelte women following their men with elegance and ease down some shi*ty little hole in the ground.

There's a particularly long and disgustingly muddy crawl aptly named Colostomy Crawl linking Peak and Speedwell caverns in Derbyshire. It takes at least 45 mins of flat-out crawling to pass through its squalid innards and unfortunately not even the stench of fish-bowl testosterone is of any help with working out who's who after a trip through it. Male and female form melded perfectly into one amorphous muddy mass ...

http://www.pictish-brewing.co.uk/page29.html

And we're supposed to wonder why so few women are climbing ice? Why on earth would any woman want to when they could simply go caving instead ...?

Dave

In reply to UKC Articles:

Hmm, I don't know what to say (although I do blush wee davie), I have always wanted to lead, so I am not sure it is entirely true to say that women only want to second and I know a lot of women who like their leading no matter what the grade.


So, ok, I, and them, might not be the cutting edge, but we are out there all the time having fun ( and that's not just looking svelte seconding) (in fact being a bit more svelte might help...)

I guess if we'd all had our team photographers with us like sponsored climbers do, we might get some more coverage.

I think there are loads of ice climbing women out there doing there fair share of leading and I'd like to see more articles on them!

But hey, that's just me.

In reply to jon:

I haven't done any women-only climbing trips/courses, but lady friends who climb, and struggle with confidence, say the appeal of such courses/trips for them is that they don't have to worry about keeping up with faster and more confident males. In addition, men DO have a tendency to take over in climbing situations when a women is struggling with something or unsure about how to do it (e.g., equalising an anchor, making a v-thread). If men always take over at such times (even in a well-meaning way), how will women learn?

So, for some women, women-only trips give them a chance to maximise their learning, and some pressure is taken off. I don't know of any women climbers who go on such trips because they are anti-men. I am sure you can get the odd person on a women-only trip who has such tendencies, but I don't think it's widespread.

We live in a world where women are constantly pitted against each other in the media....who is prettier/better dressed/looks better in a bikini/more successful etc. etc. and it happens all the time in real life too. I think if a group of girls genuinely love the company of other women and want to go and have adventures with them, that should be celebrated.

In reply to Heike:
I am not sure it is entirely true to say that women only want to second

I don't think the author of the article ever said/wrote that, she just pointed out that not many women lead at a high level on ice.

Perhaps it's different in the UK, but in NZ, I have observed that, generally speaking, women climbers are often unsure about leading on most climbing mediums - ice, trad and alpine. In addition, with Facebook and photo sharing, I've noticed that 9 times out of ten in my male friend's climbing photos, the women are seconding or top roping. I think it's largely a confidence thing.

Having said that, lots of women here lead sport, and some at a very high level. I guess because that's what we largely have here in NZ, and it usually doesn't involve long walks, hazards, cold, big run outs, etc.

In reply to UKC Articles:

about 40% of my winter clients for ice are ladies. many of the guys have been dragged along by their girlfriends/wives who want to try it out.

many girls talk themselves into believing they are not 'strong enough' by lunch time, as their male partners continue bashing their way thru the day.
even tho they tend to have better technique than the lads, the girls get convinced that strength is the be all end all.
when its just girls, the whole group climbs better and strength rarely gets mentioned.

very often, 'helpful' boyfriends/husbands/male friends make it harder for the girls by reinforcing the brute strength thing that they think is working for them.

yes yes, im aware strength is part of it, especially for filling gaps in poor technique with newbies. but lots of girls who choose to try ice climbing have a better weight:strength ratio than the boys.

core integrity has a lot to do with it, and the male fascination with 'abs' sometimes means they have an advantage there (even if its superficial).

great to see the ladies gaining force.
as timothy leary said 'women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition'

There is a lot of subconscious processing going on when the males you climb with are (apparently helpfully) telling you what to do (also known as giving advice). Because they are generally faster on the hill, they get to the belay sooner, might be geared up faster and so start taking control. When that happens I find it hard to keep my brain going at the self-sufficiency level that I need to be motivated for leading at my limit.

If the climbing partnership is part of a relationship, I've found that it is generally not a good idea to say (to their face) "just f off and let me get my head around this at my own pace" as the relationship might be important to me, and it is easier to find climbing partners... If the climbing partner is a non-relationship male, it is much easier to keep my motivation going in the presence of domineering. But it is too easy to just not want to work to deflect that, as well as deal with the physical and mental challenge of a hard lead.

In reply to septic:

Lol, I could see how this might possibly be a bit of a luuurve killer? Have you tried and tested that particular phrase?

In reply to Heike:


Not exactly as written... Well, once, but then I had to deal with that aftermath so phrasing is diplomatic now.

In reply to Francesca E:
aspects of climbing (not just ice climbing) that women generally do struggle with more than men: fear of leading/falling/getting hurt falling; strength; dealing with the cold;

choking on my coffee here...
Yes well done Sarah on yur first ice lead, I hope it is the first of many, altho getting rid of your domineering man and finding some encouraging friends of either sex to climb with might speed that process up.

Sweeping generalisations in the article....as a note to Jack, if we do have to have articles by girls about girls climbing could we please have some that reflect what is actually going on out on the hill rather than in the climbing wall next door to the kitchen. I feel like 50 years of gender equality has just been swept away with an old fahioned carpet sweeper. And yes I will get on and write something and send it in....I am THAT cross!

As for the rest...girls having a fear of leading/falling...BOLLOCKS, both sexes have that. Youy are meant to be afraid of falling, that's what keeps you alive and why you learn to place gear! I know some very bold girls and some very overly cautious safe male climbers who never lead as hard as they should be able to.
Our club has a 40/60 mix of female vs male of all ages. I can't think of a single woman in our club who doesn't lead trad. Most have also tried ice climbing and by tried yes that involves leading cos seconding isn't actually climbing , out of 12 active female members, I guess 4 lead on water ice regularly, and another 3 do ski touring, winter mountaineering and suffering for fun.

Strength....climbing is nearly all about technique...even ice responds to good feet. Yes you might have to trudge for miles carrying everything, but that's why I started climbing, to get out in the hills in a new and exciting way.
Fear of the cold....gear is so good not, dry and comfy on the hill is finally a reality, spend some money on the basics and then move on to the shiney things.
"finding women to climb with who are prepared to lead and try harder routes"..well all my friends lead, and we all lead as hard as we can, altho that level varies for sure. As you get better at climbing the pool of folk who feel they can climb with you shrinks down...Leanne if we ever do manage to sort out a day on the hill together I am going to give you some real stick about the quotes in ths article....please tell me you were qouted out of context!!
So please any girls reading this, climbing is no longer dominated by thuggish beardie men or subservient rope holding partners. And depite what the boys would have you believe, brute strength is not required for DIY, for surgery even for orthopaedics, or for climbing rock or ice. You need some basic strength to apply your superior technique that you will learn quicker as you don't thug up things in an ugly and foot flapping fashion.
Join a club, get out there and do it.
And if your bloke insists on tying on first all the time, then climb with other people, train harder, get better and whoop his ass! Once you have floated neatly up a route he couldn't do, he'll be less pushy.
Rant over...

In reply to Dr Fran (Vagabond MC): I am joining in your rant. Specially feel targeted by the comment on continental women "graciousy" following their man! The gracious bit does not apply to me though.

What Sarah describes is more related to my generation (I am in my 50s) than to the next one.

But then what is wrong in seconding? Sometimes a team is more efficient as a whole when the best climber leads. When you have to get 10,15,20 pitches done in a day it is the most sensible way to proceed. I climb a lot with men who are much stronger climbers than me. They often lead on long routes and I get us home, ie I sort out the descent and they can relax.

Who is she to judge the seconders? Same with the climbers who judge down those who are guided. By what right? Can't we just leave people do what they enjoy without despising them: bolted climbs, seconding, pulling on gear, being guided?

In reply to Dr Fran (Vagabond MC):

Oh do get over yourself.

In reply to Dr Fran (Vagabond MC):

Yes- also...

In some clubs there are still lingering expectations that women will not climb as hard as men, or lead as often, however there has been little focus in this thread on the fact that women take an increasingly larger role in climbing. This is true both at the wall, on the hills/crags and in the media. Since more women are getting involved in climbing all the time, and at all levels, most clubs already have a core of women who could encourage others. The shift to a more gender-equal climbing arena without bias is happening quite naturally and doesn't really need any pandering articles (sorry but I also found the overall tone & choice phrases of this offensive, and aggree with Will and Blue on this).

In my experience people sometimes gravitate towards their own gender when first starting to climb, but this bias pretty soon vanishes and you just climb with the partners that suit you, irrespective of gender. That said, there are also inceasing numbers of all-female partners climbing hard routes, which I've noticed has made an impression on the few remaining prejudiced male climbers.

Anyone who wants to climb, given that the internet now exists, can find a wall/club/course and get involved- the sport has never been more accessible to anyone!

In reply to Dr Fran (Vagabond MC):

Well said

In reply to UKC Articles:

Slightly disappointed Sarah hasn't replied on this thread yet