UKC

I've never got this. There are (seemingly) lots of sport hating trad climbers out there. Why? They are facets of the same sport, as are bouldering, mountaineering and winter climbing. Sport climbers don't slag off trad climbers, so why do trad climbers feel they have some divine right to the moral high ground? Answers on a postcard to the usual address.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: Its probably because there is a direct comparison between trad and sport climbing, and trad climbing is more dangerous, and more traditional in Britain (in France your just a lunatic if you climb trad). Ergo, moral high ground.

In reply to andy farnell:

Try top roping around some of them. They look at you as though you've dropped your trolleys and shat in their rope bag.

In reply to andy farnell:

Because most trad climbers are weak and sport climbing is fairly ruthless at exposing this? That and it's less embarrassing falling off an E1 than it is falling of a F6a.

In reply to andy farnell:

Trad is pure, sport is contrived? So they say...?

In reply to Kevster: I dunno, trad always seems pretty contrived to me. Where sport has no rules so long as you don't chip rock and eventually lead it clean, trad (at least UK trad) seems to spawn so many ridiculous ethics debates.

In reply to JBlackout:


Surely in France you're an Alpinist? The French dont decry traditional climbing, just dont feel (generally speaking) that small "practice" crags merit the same level of adventure as big mountains.

In reply to andy farnell: I think climingpixies answer applies to many traddy sport haters. I avoid a lot of limestone sport for example because it's bad for my ego, the irony in this case being that i'm not too weak on steep stuff bouldering but get shut down by vertical lime 6cs. Though unlike the people you mention i know this just means I'M shit, rather than the climbing itself.
Also as i'm sure you're aware loads of the people who slag off sport have never even tried to redpoint a route, and trying to apply a trad onsight ethic to sport is a recipe for a bad day.
I think it's the ego bruising combined with just not understanding the game.

In reply to Tyroneslater: Excellent!

I think sport and trad attract different personality types. Sport is more sporty, trad is more traditional. Traditional (surly, serious, superior) people tend to look down, as a defense against the pangs of jealousy perhaps, at the sporty (athletic, aggressive, achievers).

Obviously they involve different skills. Since one is more about the mind and the other more about the body, the snobbery, as above, is pretty 'natural'. Those who are strong in the head tend to think of themselves as above those who are strong in the arm (or fingers).

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

I think sport and trad require very different mentalities and not everyone has the mentality for both. I have never really done much sport, but I see it as something quite different from the sort of trad I like these day, so it unlikely to something I get into. I certainly don't hate it, just not particularly interested.

In reply to andy farnell: Dont you just think, that like any sport there are aspects people will enjoy more than other aspects. Like some people get thier enjoyment out of sport climbing as its technical, requires less equipment (hence its cheaper to do) and you dont have to worry about equipment failing or whatever, while others prefer to place thier own equipment and get thier joy and feeling of satisfaction from doing that.
I dont really see why there should be any hate towards other aspects of climbing, afterall, you're still climbing, just in a different way.

In reply to climbingpixie:

and psychologically revealing: you can reach what many would consider a repectable trad level without ever really dealing with a fear of falling. In Sport though, you are pretty stuffed if you really can't deal with falling off a bit.

In reply to andy farnell:

Sport is boring usually, clip, move, repeat ad nauseum. Time you got on some trad stuff again instead of all this soft jessie clip up stuff. You know it makes sense.;-P

In reply to andy farnell:

Am I the only one who really enjoys sport AND trad? I also love a bit of bouldering, ice climbing, winter climbing, and even hillwalking. I have always assumed that most climbers were like me, but I am increasingly unsure of that.

In reply to andy farnell:

I prefer trad because at the end of the day I feel like I have achieved more. Starting at the bottom of a long multipitch and getting myself to the top safely without any external help appeals to me more than pushing the limits of my technical ability.

Having said that, I don't have a problem with sport at all. I don't have a problem with climbing sport routes if I'm in the mood for it, and I certainly don't look down on sport climbers

In reply to Monk:

I like a bit of everything. If I'm honest though, I mainly see sport and bouldering as a means to an end - to have more outrageous trad adventures.

In reply to andy farnell: There does seen to be an element of this with UK

trad climbers! Personally I don't get get it. Sport allows one to climb technical open faces that would be un-protectable allowing you to explore your technical abilities and trad allows you to climb features normally found in 'lines of weakness' offering different climbing techniques, ability to route find and requirement to keep a head. Do both and you gain from the qualities of both. You can often tell someone who does one or the other by how they climb. I Love both. I think there is moral high ground in trad as its pure, more dangerous etc. Result is on a average a higher technical standard on the continent but a good ability for ground up, mentally challenging climbing over here in the UK. Here is to all climbing disciplines

In reply to andy farnell:

http://www.ukbouldering.com

In reply to The New NickB: Then i wasn't talking about you. I agree about the differing mentalities, and i think the failure to understand this leads to the sport slagging.

In reply to andy farnell:

I used to do this, negged sport a lot.

Reason is:

Trad: Nurtures the adventure and feels a bit exploratory.

Sport: Sport felt like going to the gym, all about the physical and gets a bit boring. The problem with sport climbing is just that, it becomes a sport. It takes away the exactingness of climbing, it lacks a soul...

This is how I used to think, and I still prefer trad...
Later on I discovered that sport can also be about really nice moves and movement, not just about simply pulling harder.

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

I know, just trying to give a balanced view, which I think is probably shared by the majority of climbers.

In reply to andy farnell:

When sport first took off, back in the early eighties, it was meant to be for the hardest trad climbers to push themselves up to a further level, but in safety. For instance, when you went to Malham, the easiest route was 7a which equated to about E4/E5 and everyone's target was Raindogs 8a which around E7. This has become blurred now with a lot of easier routes being bolted which can give a feeling of dissatisfaction to some in that they feel that really they should be soloing them if there is no gear. Also, bolting the easier routes brought in the masses. As you so rightly say, sport and trad are facets of the same sport (as it were); you can climb trad for enjoyment and occasionally to push yourself but, in my opinion, sport should be closer to your limit. As to why some trad climbers should look down on sport? It's just human psychology. Some people need something to sneer at and look down upon.

In reply to andy farnell:

Could ask the same thing, why do sport climbers hate trad climbers?

And in response to yours, I don't think they do. Personal choice and personal views on their own experiences maybe. I happen to love trad and that is no sin. You obviously love Sport.

I've an engineering friend that owns a 2nd home and that climbs sport in Spain and I don't hate him for it.

In reply to atlantis:

Or amend that last post to..

I could ask you why you assume that trad climbers hate sport climbers, since I am unaware of anyone that hates the climbers that do the type of climbs they choose to do. Maybe they strongly oppose those that bolt routes that should be left as trad, and therefore remove them again for valid reasons from all I gather but other than that..

I believe it is just prefererence of one type of climbing over the other, more likely.

I am also a fan of Chris Sharma, isn't he mostly a sport climber? I love his style, and his strength is to be admired.

In reply to andy farnell: Trad is the seduction of the crag and route, sport is the rape of them.

In reply to andy farnell:

Why do Trad climbers hate Sport climbing?

They don't Andy, it's all in your mind.

The majority of climbers in the UK go trad and sport climbing, bouldering and use climbing walls.

M

In reply to andy farnell: Don't the best sport climbers climb the hardest trad anyway?

In reply to robert mirfin:

Precisely!

That's what I find most hilarious about the whole argument. Too many examples to list.

In reply to andy farnell:

It's in your mind mate. Every climber I know , and there's quite a few, enjoy both.

E

In reply to andy farnell:

Hmm, having climbed sports routes for longer than most people on this forum have been alive I don't think I do!

Just because I *prefer* trad doesn't mean I hate (<Stephen Fry>awful, overused word</Stephen Fry>) sport. As others have said most climbers in this country do a bit of everything - there are very few trad climbers who do no sport and very few (though probably more) sport climbers who do no trad.

Last year I probably did 60% sport, 40% trad. So far this year it's 90% trad. So what? It's still climbing and I love it.

ALC

In reply to climbingpixie:

Probably balanced though by many sport climbers not achieving an 'equivalence' on trad!

In reply to Enty:

Spot on Ents. It's a myth, perpetrated by neurotic threads like this.

Most climbers do most types of climbing and most climbers understand the differences between the different types and value them all.

In reply to andy farnell:

not just to sports climnbers andy, but to boulderers too
walked into the cafe at outside hathersage and one bloke from a group of climbers said aloud "bet he's a boulderer!"
i was really offended

In reply to andy farnell:
I think there is a major point that has been missed here. Supporters of Trad climbing have built up a defensiveness against sport because you can make a trad route a sport route by putting bolts in it, but once a sport route has been established it is pretty much impossible to reverse it. I think it has been built into the psyche of people since the bolt debates in the 80s, and even new climbers that are inducted into the ethics of climbing get a subconcious feel of this antagonism.

Personally I see my self as a mountaineer that enjoys all aspects of climbing but am generally against the use of bolts on unquarried rock.

In reply to andy farnell:

In 'real life' I never get the impression that there's a big divide, but on UKC I often get the feeling that people have a downer on sport climbing.

Personally I prefer sport climbing as I like the athletic challenge, but I've still had a great time doing trad on a few occasions. And bouldering's great fun too.

Can't be bothered with all these parochial attitudes to be honest! It's all having a good time outside on rock.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

So why are sports climbers paranoid that trad climbers hate them?

Or am I being paranoid?

In reply to jonny2vests:

It's just some sport climbers. I think it's caused by childhood traumas.

Nothing that a good session of electro-shock therapy couldn't cure.

In reply to andy farnell



It's like asking a heterosexual man why he doesn't fancy other men

In reply to mick ryan: you do of course realise that youre the editor of a popular website? some of the things you say sometimes beggar belief. engage brain before putting fingers to plastic.
In reply to andy farnell: unfortunately there is loads of haters out there who seem to feel superior due to a 'trad' ethic or some bollox. granted a lot of people just get on with it but it cant be denied that there are people out there who have problems with sports climbing and bouldering because theyre not as pure of summat. at the end of the day its all climbing aint it? but those who say that there is no aminosity, its not true. it may be embarressing because most of it stems from forums on this wenbsite, but it exists and denying it a bit of a cop out by some. there is a direct parralell that springs to mind, but lets not go there.
In reply to whoever linked to UKB: i'll think you'll find that everyone is fair game on the other channel, theres no discrimination to the slagging off.

In reply to andy farnell: I don't think they do to be honest. I've done some sport climbing as well as trad and cerianly don't hate it. Most of the climbing partners I've had in the UK have also done both, at some point. I think this is just a myth. I think lots of people mix up sport, trad and bouldering. Well I've yet to meet a trad climber who's expressed a hatred of sport climbing, seems like a silly mindset.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I personally think that is absolute rubbish mate, personally i would consider myself as athletically fit if not far more athletically fit coming from a competetive background in many other sports before climbing than most of the climbers around me at similar and even slightly higher grades...however, i prefer trad because it requires strength of body AND mind....

In reply to andy farnell:

Single-pitch sport crags offer a really anonymous and forgettable experience. Even if the routes have names you don't remember them - or at least I don't - it's just "the 6a next to the picnic spot". And even if you remember the routes, it's not with the same intensity as a trad route. After a day's normal climbing the conversation in the pub usually turns to which gear it was possible to get in just there, what that move was like with just an upside-down Friend 1, and what a great climb that was. After a day's sport climbing the conversation turns, in my experience, to other things.

I've done one or two sport climbs which I do remember for their super climbing, e.g. Reptile Smile at Portland. However, that's about it: one super move, clip, two super moves, clip. I have not done any which compare for the intensity of the overall experience of my best non-bolted climbs, e.g. Suicide Wall at Bosi, Hawkwing at the Roaches, or Arcturus at Pavey Ark. I don't hate sport climbing - I just don't enjoy it much.

Now, when it gets to multi-pitch limestone (abroad), let me say straight away that I prefer two glued in stainless steel bolts at the belay to a collection of pieces of rust from the 1970s and no possibility to back them up.

Alex

In reply to thommi:

The truth is often unpleasant to some Thommi.

There is no hate. It's all in the mind of the insecure.

The majority of climbers do all types of climbing, understand the differences, and value all types. They go out, they climb, they have fun.

You'll get the odd obsessive, who will concentrate on one type of climbing (and that's a personal choice) and will invent some battle between trad vs sport, bouldering vs the rest....and get all bent out of shape.

In reality, we are all one big happy family - and some of us do a bit of gentle ribbing about different types of climbing and climber.

Still, it fuels climbing forums.

Onward.

In reply to alex_th:

I think you may have highlighted why there is a perceived downer on sport climbing among UK climbers. Basically, most low grade sport routes in the UK are pretty crap. There are a few stand-out routes at Portland, but the majority are very forgetable. Due to the rock types we have and the prevailing British ethic, our best lines are undeniably trad lines. If we had the vast sweeping sheets of limestone that grace other parts of Europe, I am pretty sure the attitude would be different.

In reply to andy farnell:

Aren't we all just 'climbers'...!

In reply to Tom_Jermy:

I see it like this.

Sport climbing is like an extremely hot curry, hard to finish
Bouldering is like a starter, small and nice to have but not really satisfying with one only.
Trad is like good cooking, infinitely variable, sometimes extreme pleasure and sometimes lets you down
Aid is like pie and chips, get something in you even if it does not make you feel as good as doing it free.

I wonder what Andy is thinking ATM?

In reply to andy farnell:


"Hate"? Really?



Chris

In reply to mick ryan: i was refering to the comments about 'childhood trauma' and 'electro shock therapy'. nevermind. while i agree its not as much of a problem as some may think, there is no denying that some climbers (in my experience it tends to be relatively new climbers who have gotten into trad) that take this superiority.

In reply to mick ryan: BTW andy hasnt replied once on this thread looking back at it. oh dear... means only one thing.

In reply to alex_th:

I'm going to take a wild guess from reading your post that you have never engaged a hard redpoint project. And I think therein lies the real draw of sport that many who either dabble occasionally or refuse to try at all don't get. There is a world of difference between a sunny day at Portland onsighting routes of a difficulty similar to that you would onsight on trad gear, to spending ten or twenty sessions working a route, suffering numerous crushing failures to finally pull through on the finishing holds, pumped stupid, knowing that you've just given the most you could have given.

Sport climbing is not about the bolts. It's about how removing the gear / fear difficulties allows you to up the ante on the physical / technical difficulties past the point you ever thought possible. It takes you to a place trad generally can't, and also teaches you lessons you can take back to trad / bouldering etc.

In reply to andy farnell: I'm not sure to be honest. I know exactly what you mean though. I just enjoy any form of Mountaineering, Climbing, Walking, Winter Climbing - the lot.

To be honest I just think that it's a bit of banter that some people take a little to far. Although it does annoy me when I see a perfectly good Trad route with bolts on.

In reply to thommi:

Yes we know Thommi. Andy likes to do that. He will rant, get doused, then cry troll.

He likes it that way.

In reply to andy farnell:

Andy, you yourself are the one of the best at arguing this point - several times in the past I've read a coherent argument from you saying how people who don't like sport climbing haven't really experienced the full process of redpointing a project, therefore don't really understand the whole point of sport climbing.

I think in Britain this is exacerbated by the relative paucity of low-grade sport. Here in Spain, there is buckets of low-grade sport, and 'working' a 6b is nothing to be ashamed of (by the way, the suggestion, made by some, that "every climber in Spain warms up on 7a before breakfast" is nonsense!).

Thus in general, the majority of British "sport" climbers climb at a very high level, and (as they're British) do so in Trad as well as sport.

I think the situation is changing though now with the increase in popularity of bouldering, which has a similar emphasis to sport climbing i.e repeatedly working sequences of moves that are at the limit of your ability.

My take on the whole issue is that I get bored of any aspect of climbing if I do too much of it. 6 months ago I was bored to tears of the relentless grade chase of sport climbing, so stopped climbing for a while. Now I've just moved near to a pretty good bouldering spot, so I've invested in a new mat and I'm psychoed for bouldering. Who knows, maybe the extra crimp strength will help with my 7c project in Siurana...!

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

I thought it might be a troll, and that maybe the kids at ukbouldering are watching it overexcitedly for evidence of UKC bumblydom (a favourite topic).

But in fact I think the majority of the thread has been pretty reasonable - so far!

In reply to Alun:

ooops ..."psychoed for bouldering" ??

<insert joke here> :P

In reply to alun: ha. the 'kids' at ukb are more bumbly than you fella mostly (at the spritely age of 31 if your profile up to date). but, no, noones watching there... far more interesting things occuring...

In reply to andy farnell:

Almost certainly because many new to trad climbing confuse Sport Climbing with a sanitised bolt clipping form of convenience climbing. Unfortunately the term is used to encompass both the most physically demanding aspect of climbing AND the laziest.

In reply to Alun:

Troll or no Alun, it does propagate the myth of tribal climbing wars.

I am pretty sure Mick Fowler boasts about having never clipped a bolt, so clearly there is some attitude out there

In reply to Alun:

I look forward to the shower scene with a man dressed up as his dead mum, knifing a duplicitous Hitchcock Blonde

In reply to Blue Straggler:

...in a forest near Fontainebleau?

In reply to andy farnell: Your initial premise is a ridiculous over-generalisation, which I for one resent.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

I tend to agree. I went sport climbing on Sunday and got a bit lost wondering around the crag trying to find the routes. A very helpful chap who was getting ready to do some trad pointed us in the right direction for the bolts and let us know where the easiest path was.

The attitude of Us Vs. Them is prevelent in all sub-sections of a sport/hobby. I've learnt to ignore it now because it's all a bit silly.

In reply to everyone: The initial post was a response the following thread - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=454341 .The number of people who rant on about 'trad being the best for this reason and that reason' gets a bit tedious after a while.

Andy F

In reply to quadmyre:

>It's about how removing the ....fear difficulties

I don't know about that. If Adam Ondra can say he was 'so scared' while achieving one of the hardest-ever sport onsights then I suspect the fear element hasn't been totally removed for most climbers.

In my experience the reason people, including myself, 'hate' sport climbing is because in order to do it you have to take a great drill to the cliff. I would have said that I couldn't believe the OP didn't get this, were it not for the fact that no-one else on the thread seems to have made this point.

jcm

In reply to Alun:


I think also a large part of the trad/sport divide comes from the very British thing of "it's just a hobby" and therefore many people not wanting to be seen to be training or trying too hard or taking it all too seriously. Hence why the average lead grade for trad in the UK is something a reasonably fit person can get up on their first day out on rock.

Most of the "sport hating" I've seen on the forums tends to come from the lower grade climbers who haven't really tried sport and really don't understand what it's all about whereas like several people have said the higher grade climbers tend to do both and take positives from their experiences in both.

In reply to andy farnell:

It's because trad climbers smell and they have to wear things that clank to let other climbers know they're coming. Before the invention of clanking things they employed a sherpa to precede them by at least 200 yards stating that an unclean one was due imminently.

In reply to sutty:

Brilliant analogy, i really like this....

I've never partaken in Aid but don't really see it's place, if you can't do it free, don't do it at all...

if no one can do it free, maybe it isn't meant to be climbed?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


If you watch the video you'll notice he's skipping half the clips on the upper part of the route. It scared me watching!

In reply to Tom_Jermy:
In my opinion, that's a load of tosh. So long as you behave responsibly to rescue agencies, other climbers and the climbing environment, climb it on a f*cking pogo stick for all I care. Do what you enjoy and get from it what you want without paying heed to anyone else. Forget the so called 'purists' and ask them where their moral authority came from.

Have fun, isn't that what any of this is supposed to be for? enjoyment?

In reply to andy farnell:
I've never got this. There are (seemingly) lots of w4nker hating people in relationships out there. Why? They are facets of the same sport, as are dogging, S&M and abseiling. W4nkers don't slag off people in relationships, so why do people in relationships climbers feel they have some divine right to the moral high ground? Answers on a postcard to the usual address.

In reply to Tom_Jermy:

Here's another...

BETAMAC

"Big Mac with cheese and a round of fries please."

...Left hand up, finger edge, hang it. Clip. Right foot out, left foot up, snatch undercut with right.

"Do you want some ketchup?"

"Yeh, ketchup and pickle?"

...Power up. Clip. Finger edge with left, share. Right foot in dimple.

"Oh 'n' throw in a thickshake - strawberry."

...Left foot smear. Left hand up for a tiny.

"Have a nice day!"

...Rock into finger edge. Jug with right. Lock. Lock. Grab belay.

"Jeez. I still feel empty."

By Craig Smith, first published in On The Edge Magazine 16

In reply to Tom_Jermy:


So you'd ditch a good proportion of the big walls in existence? Not to mention an untold number of routes that have aid moves to make the pitches link up.

In reply to andy farnell:

Really?
I don't believe I posted that thread due to hating sport climbers etc as you like to incorrectly assume and portray on here.

Maybe your thread has more to do with your own bad attitude and incorrect assumptions, more accurately.

In reply to atlantis:

Sport climbs, not the climbers. You assumed I said climbers, not climbs. And your thread does very much come across as 'trad is best and the rest sucks'

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: I'm loving the number of people in here writing "I've never tried (sport/redpointing/aid), but I don't see the appeal"

Maybe have a go and come back when you have something to compare to?

In reply to andy farnell: Sport climbers and boulderers slag off trad climbers and trad climbers slag off sport and boulderers, probably because each is stronger than the other in certain ways. Most people that climb predominantly trad are weak as piss so slag off sport climbers for 'cheating' to make themselves feel better about their great weakness.

Lots of people like all disciplines, I tend to do more trad and bouldering because it's what I enjoy most but I'm planning on doing some real sport this summer ie redpointing something hard for me, to try it out and also because I am really weak and sport climbing seems a good way to get stronger and fitter.

In reply to andy farnell:

I think Trad climbers (myself included) claim the highground in the 'having bigger bollocks' stakes, rather than hating them.

And that's fair enough... Just the reality of it!

I'm not talking about Sport Climbing as a discipline here, as alot of climbers do both.
I'm talking about climbers who ONLY sport climb!

If climber A climbs trad (at any grade) and climber B only sport climbs (at whatever grade), then climber A automatically assumes the right to call climber B a 'big girls blouse'

In the mammot team vid Johnny Dawes said

" Calling it sports climbing is just sexing it up , what it really is , is pre practiced bolted climbing"

" any one can drill the rock and put a bolt in it, but you will be putting a bolt in your own head.."

Pre practiced bolted climbing , dont sound as good !!!!!

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

I dissagree... I think it is the sport climbing fraternity that has all the rules... redpointing etc...

In reply to AndyE9:



http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=422

In reply to AndyE9:


What about 'Rock Scaling for Jessie Chickens'?? (I said that, not Johnny)

In reply to Euge: Redpointing: Do whatever you want short of chipping as long as you eventually lead it clean. That is it.

Dont have the same ring to it does it...

In reply to AndyE9:

Isn't Johnny falling on his own sword here?

That looks like practiced, pre-placed trad gear climbing to me. Do you remember the shot of London wall they did? All the gear had already been placed, i'm sure that's part of the crux.

In reply to andy farnell: all the shit about trad climbers being better cos they have bigger balls only really works if people actually climb at their limit. i really love both but for different reaasons. i love the headgames of trad but i climb at least a grade or two below my limit. i love sport because i can climb at my absolute limit and throw for shit i dont know if i'll catch.

people on here bang on about the hardcoreness of trad because the people at the top of the trad game are pushing the limits with real danger when in reality what most people are doing (myself included) is so far from that its hard to classify as the same sport (like a 17 yr old in a renault clio vs an f1 racer). but banging on about trad gives them a sense of superiority because of the image it.

In reply to AndyE9:

When you've also watched the video of him beasting his way up Tabou Zizi back in the 80s when he was doing more climbing and less controversial pieces to camera prior to releasing his autobiography it kind of takes the wind out of his sails on that one.

http://www.posingproductions.com/product.php?form_action=detail&product...

Which isn't to say he doesn't have a point or that I won't be buying his book as soon as it's out!

In reply to andy farnell: the main reason trad climbers dislike sports climbs is because of the concern that the U.K may end up like France with everything bolted. This would remove an element of the sport that we love. If sport climbing took place only on rock that will never be trad climbs the majority of trad climbers would have no problems its the gray area where both are possible that causes strife.

In reply to joem:

Just a question here.......
So what if a route is bolted, you don't have to use the bolts? You'll still know you climbed it without their use, and they can't be in the way because they are bolts and wouldn't go in the same place as trad gear, or am I missing something?

In reply to Tyroneslater: you may not have to use the bolts but there still there so unless your soloing you always have the option of clipping said bolts this changes the nature of a climb as an easy get out is always to had, this makes the route less committing and reduces the seriousness, these factors are all part of the game of trad climbing.

In reply to Tyroneslater: have you ever tried trad climbing a bolted line? it takes immense determination not to clip the bolts (more than i have) you also always know you have the option of just clipping a bolt and its over which really takes away from it.

In reply to joem:

To be honest, I don't get that. If you set out to climb it without use of the existing gear for your own satisfaction, you just wouldn't use it. I am not bothered about climbing style, but I know if I was bothered I would not 'cheat' because I would feel ashamed of myself having given in.

I just don't see why the two can't coexist.

In reply to Tyroneslater: it would be like claiming you soloed a route when in actual fact you had ropes a rack and a belayer all in place "just in case" just because you didn't use any of it doesn't make it a solo.

In reply to Tyroneslater: try it. half the fun of harder trad is being commited but with bolts there you just arent and in the back of the mind you know that.

when your scared - really scared - and then manage to get on with it and just climb its a great feeling. if theres a bolt there your most likely to just clip it. it would take some immense willpower not to.

In reply to Tyroneslater: Given a choice between ashamed of yourself or dead, which would you choose?

In reply to joem:

No it wouldn't. Not to yourself, because YOU know whether you would have clipped on or not. Or is this about being able to boast to others?

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

You can't use that argument! Trad climbers go out every day and climb without dying. If you are foolhardy enough to be climbing routes you 100% know are going to kill you, perhaps you ought to just accept your Darwin award with grace!!!

In reply to Tyroneslater: go out and climb a trad climb close to your limit on a bolted line and you will understand.

In reply to andy farnell: no you misunderstand weather you clip the bolts or not isn't the point its the fact that when you start off on the route you know that if its all going wrong and you get scared/carnt find gear or find the route harder that you expected you can always clip the bolts the option of being able to clip the bolts changes the nature of the climb weather or not you choose to use them.

In reply to tradattack:

Try being a little less condescending. I have had my life on the line MANY times in my life and I know how I react. Not in trad climbing, it's true, but in sailing, parachuting and even once flying when I was being too cocky.

Please don't be so precious as to think only a trad climber knows what real fear is.

In reply to Tyroneslater: thats not what im saying you knob. imagine if you were doing those things but you knew there was a very very very easy exit one clip away - it stops being the same thing and also as soon as it got a bit sketchy you would duck out.

i have never said only a trad climber knows real fear. try reading my posts before making your own condescending comments.

Fear's for Queers's . . . .

In reply to andy farnell: bored now this is just descending further into a shouting match. I can appreciate both enjoying trad and sport but bolting trad lines just spoils them. end of.

In reply to andy farnell: This thread highlights why we don't have many cutting edge sport climbers from the UK.

In Europe there are 5 year old kids onsighting 10c, over here, it seems people are pushed into the old VS shelf shuffling on a weekend.

We can't all be as bold as Cragrat Rich though.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

OOOOOOOOooooooooohhhhh, get you.

You're still a halfwit, though. Reflect on the fact that nowhere in the world do trad and sports climbs co-exist in the way you suggest.

jcm

In reply to andy farnell:
Its not unusual to have sport sub gendres having these divides exist.
Cycling-Traditional (roadies) wont even acknowledge the existence of anybody with a fat tyre when they pass on the road.

Freeflight-Hang glider pilots originally didnt take to paraglider pilots, that has been surplanted by paraglider pilots deriding paramotor pilots.

Snowports-Skiers and snowboarders and now its anybody on gay blades

IMHO it stems from ease of access if something is more accessible (because of technology, culture, 'marketing') then those that perceive that they take a more hard earned path will tend to discount the 'easy way'.

I don't regard trad as riskier...i've had more injuries from paragliding, snowboarding and mountain biking than climbing....I think its got something to do with the speed at which i get it wrong.

In reply to andy farnell:

Come on you know the answer to that....trad climbers just aren't strong enough , so they slag off sports climbers.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Well gosh,
if it hasn't been done that wya before, it's perfectly obvious it can never be done, isn't it?

In reply to andy farnell:

I don't hate sport climbing or sport climbers, I just don't do much sport climbing. Not sure why, I live in Sheffield and there's loads of either trad or sport nearby, I guess I prefer the mental challenge of trad.

It doesn't make much sense for one type of climber to slag off another type. Haven't a lot of the seriously hard trad routes been done by people who acheived their strength and technique from sport climbing?

In reply to Jimbo C:

Fixed that for you

sports climbing , indoor climbing outside...

good training for trad ...

Trad climbing is not having to rely on pre placed bolts but being self Sufficient. Obviously trad has a hightend element of danger and excitment, as you dont have the comfort of pre drilled bolts.

At what ever level your climbing at , sports climbing will always feel reserved compaired to trad , this would be the same if you at the top of your game or just starting out , grades dont matter as sports climbing is already placed, with out that extended element of danger . placing your own gear on route and then having a second clean it out is by far a more exsposed , thrilling , hightend danger, making the leader having to think about placing gear rather than just clipping..

Ice climbing is a step above trad , with even more exposure..

If being a sports climber is your thing , then so be it but it really dont mean that you are climbing any better, if anything you will always be an indoor climber , climbing outside....

this is just my thoughts, but least by being a sports climber your one step above a top rope climber.....

)

In reply to Tyroneslater:

If it hasn't been done that way before in spite of having been suggested by innumerable semi-climbers on the internet for the last millennium or so, there's a fair chance it's worth inexperienced climbers reflecting a little before shooting their mouth off about things they know nothing about, certainly.

jcm

In reply to andy farnell: I love Trad and Sports in equal measure, and being a crap climber to start with, Sport climbing helps my "headgame" when climbing Trad. And climbing Trad makes me realise how safe I feel when climbing Sport.

Kind of like the Ying and Yang of the climbing world. They cannot exist without each other, so to speak.

The answer to your question is, I don't know. I certainly have never met a trad climber who hasn't at one time or other trained on sport climbs, indoors or out. Maybe if you can elaborate with some personal experience of the phenomenon, then someone might have an answer for you.

Cheery bye,
Dion.

In reply to AndyE9:

Ice climbing a step up from trad. Isn't ice climbing just thunk thunk step up thunk thunk ice screw. Might as well be climbing the stairs. That makes trad the stanner stair lift of climbing

In reply to FiendishMcButton:




Then sports climbing must be like sitting on the sofa scratching your arse !!! ...


Pmsl.... and my dad is bigger

In reply to AndyE9:

LOL nice to have a break from the shoutiness


PS My mum is fatter

In reply to FiendishMcButton:



She was last night

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I've never claimed to be an accomplished climber, I'm new to it. But even if I'd been in it for the last 20 years (as I have sailing) I'd not have your attitudes to it.

I have always been a live and let live person, I have always been the kind of person to recognise someone elses accomplishments, whether they are on, above or below a par with mine.

To me this all smacks of elitism.


For me the challenge in anything is a personal one, not one to be compared to someone else.


When I started climbing I wnet to walls first, met a few people. To a person they thought either trad or sport was 'the way to go' To a point where you were almost 'pigeon holed' as to which one you prefer!


I just don't get it. I am not an idiot and I understand your arguments, but for the life of me I don't know why you lot are like this.

In reply to Tyroneslater:


Because the rock on our Isle is sacred and should not be drilled. Unless it is insert explosives and then to build things out of it.

In reply to FiendishMcButton:

I saw a quarry blast once and it was bloody awesome.


I read a book once by Ian Banks, Look to Windward. There were people who put up pylons to hang sail cars from, and another group who disagreed with it and went around taking them down. This reminds me of that absurd dispute!

In reply to Tyroneslater:


So you're 12m up, the last crappy nut just rattled out of it's crack below your feet, its predecessor is too distant to be of any use. Your arms are pumped solid, your heel bouncing, there's just you, the jagged blocks below, the moves above to a pocket that might take a cam. Oh and the shiny 12mm bolt by your face. What do you do...

If you still say you'd not clip the bolt you're either daft, a lier or you've never been in a position anything like that. I don't think you're daft.


They can, even side by side on the same crag but not on top of each other.
jk

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

Whilst hate is a little strong. I'd beg to differ here Mick...

I'd drifted away from Trad, spending more time bouldering and sport climbing (and a lot of time training) and can't remember hearing anything negative about Trad (apart from a few people who admitted just how much it made them need to change trousers).

Over the last year or so I've been getting into it more and I've spent a lot of recent evenings on low-grade Gritstone classics. I've heard a lot of snide and flippant comments about sport climbing/bolts/chalk etc. from many an angle.

The ethically pure concerned then often set about dogging the hell out of a nearby chimney.

Clearly its all in my mind though?

In reply to jkarran:

You're missing my point.

In any high risk activity you need to constantly assess your abilities against the prevailing conditions.


My question to you is this:

If you were in EXACTLY the position you just described, but there was no bolt next to you, what would you do?


If you tell me you'd go on regardless, the situation is perhaps not as bad as you're painting. If it is as bad and you go on, you're accepting a level of risk you do not need accept, and therefore, if you're that intent on climbing in this way, the bolt is neither here nor there.


It makes no sense any way you put it.

Yes, I would take the bolt, but I am not interested in climbing to get myself killed. I'd go away, work on what went wrong and attack it another day and be perfectly comfortable with that.

If you're a traditional climber getting yourself into those sorts of scrapes, I see you as irrisponsible anyway.

And no, I am not looking to be 100% safe, but there is a difference between being safe and being reckless. I fully intend to try self leading soon, but no way on earth would I leave myself as exposed as you describe unless I was reasonably certain it was within my ability.

In reply to Tyroneslater: you reeeeaaaalllly dont get it do you? youve even said yourself that you do sports where you end up in dangeous situations - or more accurately situations that are potentially very dangerous if you dont handle it correctly.

part of commiting to trad is keeping a cool head, understanding your commited and then doing what needs to be done. if theres a bolt there firstly you are never truly commited and secondly your head will never be in the right place to do it.

ive done plenty of trad climbing and also tried a few trad climbs next too or on bolted lines. it totally changes the mental aspect of it - any remote fear and im fighting against clipping the bolt more than the climb which is ridiculous and ruins the experience.

i think the main point here is that whilst youve done other 'dangerous' things you dont trad climb and you lack the mental ability to insert yourself hypothetically in the situation.

In reply to Tyroneslater:


It depends on who you meet. Most rock climbers I know do not have a divide between bouldering, tradding and sport climbing and those that do don't deride others. I wouldn't listen overmuch to those who are threatened by the disciplines within the sport they don't practise.

In reply to Tyroneslater:


Sorry... let me get this straight. You are arguing about what it feels like to be on the lead on a trad route yet you have never actually lead a trad route?

both sports climbing ( pre bolted climbing) and trad climbing have there places.

sports climbing is a spill over from indoor climbing taking on an out door role

, where as trad climbing needs to be looked at in a diff way altogether. building belays, placing gear, thinking about gear placments....

In reply to Monk:

Let me get this right, you haven't read a word I've said?
Honestly. Some of you really do seem to think the only way to face fear is by your particular area of this one particular sport. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.

No, I am arguinf that if you are so set on trad climbing and your bollocks are of the epic proportions you all seem to make out, having a clip nearby would be something you sneer at. You seem to sneer at everything else!

In reply to Tyroneslater:

no....thats not what anyone is saying, thats how your choosing to interpret it in your own small minded way. we are trying to explain an important aspect of trad climbing which we value which does not work with a bolt there and you dont get it partly because your talking without experience.

people have been making extreme examples as a method of explaining a concept but its clearly beyond your mental capacity to understand.

would sky diving or flying or any of the other things you do be the same if you could just click your fingers and it all stopped?

In reply to Tyroneslater:

I've read what you said. The vast majority of climbers (i.e people who actually lead routes) understand that having bolts on a trad route completely neuters the experience.

This attitude is nothing to do with facing fear in general, it's about the experience of climbing bold trad routes.

I don't comment on BASE jumpers vs skydivers because I haven't done either so am in no position to comment on the ethics. I would suggest that people should at least have gained competency in both trad and sport climbing before they can form a valid opinion on bolting ethics.

In reply to andy farnell: As a recent returnee to climbing, after a lay off for a number of years, mid life crisis and a daughter who has taken an interest. I grew up in the west country and was a definite trad follower,I could see the bonus of the odd bolt on blank limestone, but those around me were quite anti purely bolted and full aid routes.
Now having found the pleasure in bouldering at artificial outdoor venues and walls,( Essex doesn't have real rock)I can understand the Sport climbers better and appreciate what they are achieving, but for me to trad climb a E1/2 at 6b/c again is. my aim, too old and need to build up again to aim for more at present.
I just watch them doing the 7's at the wall and wish for my youth again

.

In reply to Monk:

As I said..... I don't get it.

I am in a position to comment on anything I like, it's usually a fairly balanced, non biased opinion because it's the way I'm built and I understand myself very well, I can exptrapolate from previous behaviour to reasonably predict future behaviour and I can categorically tell you that even when I am able to trad lead my own routes, I'll never be elitist about it. That is the bit I don't get. Friendly rivalry, yes, there's nothing like a bit of friendly pisstaking, but a lot of what I've epxerienced in climbing has an undercurrent which is anything but friendly.

Just my experience so far. Not to say I haven't met some nice people, I have!

But I do not get this elitism.

As others have mentioned on here........ people who DO have lots of experience, how often is it that you are honestly pushing the boundaries so hard that you're in mortal peril? It can't be too often or the mortality rate would be a lot higher than it is.

In reply to Tyroneslater: Right but thats not what youve been arguin about for the last however many posts.....

Sounds to me like your just way to sensative. Theres loads of piss taking in any sport but its all fairly tounge in cheek!

In reply to tradattack:

I run a couple of hundred hairy arsed construction workers for a living. I assure you I am not too sensitive.

I can see when the pisstaking is friendly and when there's real 'superiority' behind it, and all I'm saying is I see more of the superiotity in climbing than in any sport I've ever been involved with. And again, that is NOT saying everyone is like it, but there does seem to be a lot of it!

In reply to Tyroneslater: Yea sure theres a few of the hard core traddies that get a bit carried away with it but most people do both and really it doesnt go past a bit of a ribbing. there are loads of sports with exactly the same mentailities. xc mountain biking vs dh, skiers vs snowboarders, ju jitsu vs judo etc etc etc. theres a friendly rivalry and a few take it too far.

theres really no need to get upset about it, who gives a toss what the extremists think anyway!

In reply to Tyroneslater:


With all due respect I think you're missing mine. I'm no die-hard evangalist for a trad or sport approach, pro bolts or anti bolts* but I've been climbing for a few years now. I'm no expert but I do have some experience.

*flick through my logbook and you'll see a mix of climbing in a mix of styles


Obviously <wonders where this is going>.


I'd make one of those hard decisions (and I'd be scared, fighting to keep the panic down), do I go up on fading arms, down on fading arms (this may not be a realistic option), fiddle with crap gear on fading arms, jump (!), scream and hope for rescue in time or cling on till I fall. Whichever of those I chose I'd still have to choose one of them! I have made those choices several times. Most climbers have.

What you can't do is take the easy option, that's the nature of the game. If there is an easy option you've changed the game.


Muddle headed nonsense I'm afraid. I'm not saying you push on regardless, far from it (though sometimes pushing on is the best and safest option!), I'm saying you can, often as a result of very small mistakes or misjudgments find yourself in a very serious position that you never intended to be in, that's a risk you run with trad climbing. It's not one you generally run climbing on bolts.

I'm not talking up trad here for the sake of it and I don't subscribe to the 'it's all about big hairy balls' smack being talked up the thread by some. A lot of trad climbs are pretty safe, you'd have to be grossly incompetent to find yourself in real trouble but they're not all like that and situations get out of hand fast.


That's not what the traditional approach is about, it's about making those decisions under pressure when you have to. More to the point it's about trying to climb the route while avoiding putting yourself in those positions in the first place. You don't get another day, you get seconds, minutes at most.


Fine. I am (and I'm a sport climber). If you think you can climb for long without finding yourself in a position like that then you're deluded or worse, not seeing the risk you're running.

Am I irresponsible? Hard to say without perspective but I don't think I am especially irresponsible, I'm actually quite risk averse. I'm also quite aware of (most of) the risks I do take.


Frankly with your level of experience self belay leading *is* reckless (or pointless), plain and simple. If you think it's not then you don't understand the risks you're taking. I stayed out of your previous thread on the subject because you weren't listening to some hugely experienced people then either, people far more experienced than me. I don't know where the self assured bravado comes from, I hope it's born of a deep understanding of what you're doing but from where I'm sat it smacks of arrogance and ignorance.

I don't mean to be rude to you Tyrone (though I realise I probably am being) and I do want you to continue engaging with people in here but please please do reflect on what people are saying before going out and taking silly risks like lead soloing.

jk

In reply to tradattack:
theres really no need to get upset about it, who gives a toss what the extremists think anyway!

That sort of attitude can blow up in your face.

In reply to Reach>Talent: hahahaha. excellent. good work that man.

In reply to jkarran:

JK,

I completely realise the risks involved in climbing, I also realise that trad is the second riskiest way to climb ( perhaps excluding ice climbing) I understand I will be in bad situations.

But you hit the nail on the head, choice. You gave an absolute situation, I say those are not the every day experience, if they were, many more climbers would die.

If I WERE climbing trad and that was my goal and focus, the only thing which would make me clip on is fear of imminent death.

But if I feared imminent death and the bolt wasn't there and there were no options open to me........ that tells me I would have been a statistic and I really shouldn't have been in that situation.

Unless trad climbing is about trying to face death on a daily basis, I do not get your point, and I do not beleive trad climbing IS that for most people.

In reply to jkarran:

Re self belaying being reckless at my level.....

No, it isn't because I will not even attempt it untill I'm 100% confident in my rigging abilities, and I will pick routes well within my ability while climbing this way and push gradually.

I'm not trying to prove anything to myself, I'm trying to have fun.

In reply to Tyroneslater:


hahaha. yea right.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

I'm a bit confused about your point here. I am definitely not arguing about elitism, I am trying to explain why bolts and trad cannot happily coexist on the same route. I happily climb at several crags where bolts and trad routes exist on the same cliff. Equally, I love both sport climbing and trad climbing.

The point I am trying to make is regarding your suggestion of not clipping the bolts. As several people have said, this makes a huge difference to the experience when climbing the route. I was merely suggesting that you should try climbing both trad and sport routes, gaining a certain level of competency, then come back and give us your opinion.

Obviously, it's not every time and it isn't everybody. Plodding along on well protected routes within your ability is lots of fun, but there are a lot of classic routes out there that do involve a certain amount of peril. I would be surprised if there were very many trad climbers out there who couldn't remember at least one occasion when they were in a scenario similar to that described by jkarran above.

One classic example is Three Pebble Slab and the eternal HVS/E1 debate. The route is actually quite easy, and the crux move has protection, but there is a very bold, but quite easy, pad up the slab above where failure is not really an option. A bolt would actually make it a very ordinary climb. This route is one of the most climbed in the logbooks, which nicely supports what I am trying to say. It is this kind of experience that makes trad climbing memorable.

In reply to Tyroneslater:


This ^ is the danger, the thought that it's all about the rigging and ropes. That bit is easy! It's the other risks that come with climbing at height alone that you're missing because you think you know what it's about, you think you'll have it all figured out.

I'm not trying to brow beat you into submission or humiliate you, I'm trying to make sure you don't get yourself into real trouble without realising.


Good, that's what it's all about
jk

In reply to Monk:

Ok, I get this, there are going to be occasions where what you're saying has some merit. I am not suggesting that every route needs to get bolted.

All I am saying is that most of the time, a route being bolted is not going to reduce the ability of people to trad climb it right next to the bolts. I DO understand there might be the occasional route you'd like to keep pure. But on a day to day basis, I don't see why they can't coexist together.

In reply to jkarran:

Luaghing here, I DON'T think it's all about rigging.

Hence the bit after about routes and ability. But the rigging is a big part of it, especially if you get part two wrong!!!!!

In reply to Tyroneslater:


That makes you radically different from anyone I've ever climbed with. Fair enough...


You shouldn't have been, you made an error getting into that position but if you do get into climbing seriously then in a years time you will have been in that position and many more less serious but still frightening.


It's not. I've explicitly said it's not for most people, most people climb safe routes and don't fall (sport climbers fall much more frequently and often further). Trad climbing is about control, control and judgement. Occasionally you do lose that control, those are the moments you remember, the moments where you have to make a snap decision with serious consequences. They're not what it's all about but they are a part of the game!

jk

In reply to Tyroneslater: seriously, not meant in a nasty or elitist way at all - go and lead some trad and then decide if you think if bolts would ruin the experience.

In reply to tradattack:

Fair enough! the argument shall recess for a few months until I get myself some experience in trad. I've a month off soon, so should be able to report some progress

In reply to Tyroneslater: just as one further point - no trad climbing for most very rarely involves mortal peril but it involves risk - maybe jus breaking an ankle and maybe your just unsure whether the wire which looked pretty good or the cam you placed a bit quick cos your pumped or mayeb its just your head running away with you - all the same it equates to being really f*ing scared and when you control that and deal with the situation it feels great (like in other sports).

Having tried myself i would suggest you would have to be of exceptionally strong charecter not to clip the bolt - you dont have to be in actual risk of death but your brain will be going mental telling you your in danger and theres a very simple solution!

In reply to jkarran:


"It's not. I've explicitly said it's not for most people, most people climb safe routes and don't fall (sport climbers fall much more frequently and often further). Trad climbing is about control, control and judgement. Occasionally you do lose that control, those are the moments you remember, the moments where you have to make a snap decision with serious consequences. They're not what it's all about but they are a part of the game!"

Agreed! but if it's really that bad, I'll bet you're effin' glad of the bolt!

But as I said, I partly get what you mean about some routes..... but I still don't beleive that reflects the day to day.

I.E. it isn't as bad as all that, and see my first post, sometimes people look at you like you've just shat in their bag!

In reply to andy farnell:

It's not hard to see why Mr Slater's going to be starting out by means of self-belaying, is it?

Let's face it, the fellow's an arrogant moron and not worth talking to.

jcm

In reply to willworkforfoodjnr:

I have never tried homosexuality, but it does not really appeal. You don't have to do something to know it is not for you, you just have to know what it entails.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

True, but I have a BMW, so I don't need a personality

In reply to AndyE9:


This makes me think you should try more sport routes. As an E1 climber, I can think of one 6a+ at a local crag that is more scary and exciting than half a dozen E1s I've done around the UK. Doing moves at the top of your grade with the possibility of 5 or so metre fall, is pretty scary. Of course not all sports routes are like that, but Spanish limestone with bolts every metre is not all sport climbing.

In reply to Tyroneslater:


They can climb it on trad gear but they won't get the trad experience. Which is what JK said ages ago. It's like banging your head against a wall this. Great fun though.

E

In reply to Enty:
It had given me a great idea though "Trad Purity quickdraws" basically a normal quickdraw but using 'biners that are too wide to go through the eye of a bolt, but will pass through a wire or sling. Obviously we'd need to strip out all those modern safety bolts with huge eyes at Swanage.

In reply to Enty: And what i said is....... I would if I didn't use it. I said it ages ago too.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

If some routes are pure, why not all routes? And if a route is perfectly protectable with trad gear (hence bolting it would make no difference to the experience) why does it need to be bolted? It's already 'safe'.

Climb more, then see what you think.

In reply to Tyroneslater:
I think what people are trying to convey is that the presence of a bolt removes the "what if?" element of trad climbing, in much the same way as sticking a bouncy castle at the bottom or a top rope does. You may climb the route using trad gear but you haven't climbed the route in a trad style as there was always the option of using the bolt.

In reply to Monk:

Why? for no other reason than this being a completely unreasonable suggestion.

I've been accused of being arrogant, but what some people don't see is that to me (and I'm sure others) to set oneself up as the arbiter of all ethics in a sport is of the utmost arrogance in my opinion.

As I've stated before, I'm of the live and let live persuasion.

And please understand, I have ZERO interest in sport climbing. I see my direction in climbing as mostly self leading trad. It's what I am interested in.

But I am never going to try telling others that what they do is wrong but what I want should dominate.

In reply to Tyroneslater:


One thing to think about, similar to jk's point, most people's perception of risk doesn't coincide with the actual risk and most punters (I include myself here) will be shitting themselves in situations where they are in fact perfectly safe. A good part of climbing is having the mental control to deal with your fears, whether rational or not. You slap a 12mm bolt in the rock, said punter's perception of the risk will change, whether it's changed the actual risk or not. By doing that you've changed the whole nature of the game. I think it would take a particular type of person to push on through and say "I won't use that bolt whatever" and most people aren't that person.

In reply to chris j: Not just similar to jk's but identical to one of tradattak's points, I should skim-read more thoroughly...

In reply to Tyroneslater:


In climbing? Or in UKClimbing?

In reply to AndyE9:


If you had more than 5 minutes experience you'd know that to be untrue.
I miss the pre-internet days when top-roping beginners were seen but not heard.

In reply to andy farnell:
To answer the OP. I'm primarily a trad climber, but I also sport climb, boulder, ice climb etc.

The reason I hate sport climbers with a passion is that they turn up at a crag carrying about 6kg of rope and draws cool as a cucumber, while I arrive at the crag breathing out of my arse having lugged double ropes and >10kg of rack + other crap up an unpleasant walk in only to discover the sodding crag is full of top ropers.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

I've been climbing 20 years, but don't know what "self leading trad" means. Can you enlighten me please?

In reply to mrjonathanr:

In general.
I've seen it on here a fair bit, but put that down to the impersonal nature of the internet.

At the walls, I am serious when I say people did seem to want to pigeonhole you on what you were 'into' It was subtle but obvious.

In climbing, no comments as such, but there have been obvious looks as I set up top roping, and be clear, I am not route hog, I am quite a courtious creature when I don't know the etiquette.

That said I've seen planty of positives too, people who offered suggestions on rigging when I was getting started etc.

I suppose I just find the divisions surprising......... In other hobbies I've had, any rivalry has been of a very friendly nature.

In reply to TobyA:


Self leading trad is something I'm inventing

I don't want to climb with people a lot of the time because I am going to be very slow at it due to a problem I have with cramping in the neck.

But I want to climb placing my own gear.
So what I will be doing is anchoring a rope at the bottom ( though in practice, to avoid high factor falls, where possible I will secure at the top, drop it down, anchor at the bottom on a roller caribiner, then take the rope back up with me placing gear as I go.

It isn't actually trad...... of course. But the closest I can get to it without having a VERY patient climbing partner.

In reply to Tyroneslater:
It's fair to say sport vs trad has aroused strong emotions, historically, but it's mostly a settled arrangement now with bolts confined to limestone. Realistically you can't have a route be both things, and so there's competition for the limited reserve of accessible quality rock in the British Isles. The variety makes it a great place to climb.

Do what you like so long as you don't impose your opinions on others - that's a big part of the appeal. No ref with a whistle.

The majority of able climbers I know transfer between the disciplines. Sometimes whinging partisan comments are more about the insecurities of thatindividual than representative of the silent majority who don't post but climb. I wouldn't take the 'divisions' too seriously!

In reply to mrjonathanr:

Point taken on the 'business' of some places. I went to windgather last week on a Friday afternoon to find about 50 people there! I drove straight past. Never could stand queing.

In reply to Tyroneslater:
So what I will be doing is anchoring a rope at the bottom ( though in practice, to avoid high factor falls, where possible I will secure at the top, drop it down, anchor at the bottom on a roller caribiner, then take the rope back up with me placing gear as I go.

Not wanting to sound patronising but you do realise that the stystem you are proposing is very dangerous don't you?
By adding a lot of extra rope into the system you are adding to the amount of stretch you'll get under load, giving you the potential to deck out from a dangerous height. Adding extra complexity to the system also increases the likelyhood of it failing.

In reply to Reach>Talent:

I have a fair idea what I'm doing ( at least partly thanks to some some good posts on the question I raised )

It won't always be done with the rope secured at high level, it will depend on the climb ( bear in mind, you know the stretch factor of the rope )
Sometimes it will be anchored at ground level with a 'shock knot' tied in. Whichever system I use will be carefully worked out before use.

It's really my only option if I wish to climb, and whilst I appreciate it slightly increases risk, done properly, it is just that, a slight additional risk. But I do appreciate the comments and any useful input!

In reply to Tyroneslater:

This may interest you, hope you can understand it;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

In reply to sutty:

No, my wit just doesn't extend to such subtle ways of calling me a tw*t mate, easier if you just say it

In reply to Tyroneslater:

All it means is your delusions of competence may be misplaced, hope you take note.

In reply to andy farnell: because most of us are doing it wrong (i.e. climbing sport with a trad-attitude) which makes it a far less satisfying experience than it can be.

i think it is telling that people describe mid/low grade sports routes by their grade (have you tried that 6b over there?) rather than their name as well. Suggests to me that, overall, easy bolted climbing is not as worthwhile as easy trad.

In reply to Tobias at Home:

Feck, you must be bored posting on this thread.

You back from Alaska then?

In reply to sutty:

I know exactly what it means thank you very much. I am very aware of my limitations thank you. I don't resent anyone telling me a specific reason why something will not work, I am grateful for such advice.

What I am not grateful for is when someone just suggests a thing cannot be done without giving specific reason.
Just saying you think I am over confident is pretty meaningless unless you've inspected my rigging and pointed out some flaw.


Yes, I appreciated that with the rope tied at the top and fed down, for certain lengths of climb it would be dangerous, for others, it would have danger 'spots'

I appreciate that climbing alone represents a danger in itself over and above having a partner.

I appreciate that rigging the way I wish to rig can add complication.

The risks when well managed whilst significant are not overwhelming.


And given that my choice is to use this method or none at all (or stick with top roping) I'd rather do something than nothing ta very much.

In reply to andy farnell: I like all climbing yet for me trad feels more, natural. in the sense that I have to trust myself to place gear aswell as be able to climb and even more to the point i leave a crag looking clean and modest with no bling(steel bolts) sticking out on it.
Can you imagine Stanage glittering in the sun with a million bolts.

I love bolt climbing and I am proud to say i enjoy limestone sport/trad.

I'd guess most of the people who supposedly 'hate' sport or bouldering are the types that can't deal with the failure of falling off a move 5 or 10+ times.

We aren't all built to bear down and push ourselves, there's no need for any conflicts.

Pre bolted climbing , is just a spill over from indoor climbing walls, . as mentioned early on

I have done both . . so can make a fair judgement.

it is easy for the indoor climber to climb out doors on pre bolted routes, not really that hard to cross over, no matter what grade . but it is a very different situation when the indoor climber moves into trad climbing..

trad climbing is more involved, is the pinacle of fair weather climbing, when the weather turns cold , its on to the ice...


but !! to be out climbing is better than not, and sometimes the rock type dictates the way in which you climb it, as for me I live close to the southern sand stones, which are only to be climbed on a top rope, I have climbed there ,and have enjoyed it as I enjoy climbing at various indoors climbing walls. I use all these diffrent aspects of climbing as a tool in my training ..

also people can only really make a true comparison between the diffrent aspects of climbing if they have experianced them first hand, unless your out there doing it then I think its fair to say you can not make a fair judgement..

In reply to andy farnell:

No I don't believe my thread does, much as you like to imply it, as I said already above, I think it has more to do with your own bad and negative attitude than anything else. Funny too, I don't see any other sport or winter climbers posting out negative threads like yours, and yours does state, 'Why do trad climbers hate sport climbers', again many responded to say hate is a strong word, I don't believe we do etc etc.

Maybe sort out your bad attitude hey? I am sure there will be more threads out on differences but if you don't like it then you don't have to respond to it do you.

In reply to atlantis:

Trad climbers hate sport climbing/ or climbers, is still causing the same negative gain, which is what I am sure your trolling thread by yourself was aiming to do. However, you didn't get the outcome you were intending obviously so you thought you could target my thread instead for some lame reason (of your own I might add).

Bad attitude you do have.

In reply to AndyE9:

I only looked at your profile now, and see you've been climbing less than a year. So I would definitely reassert what I said to you above, there are plenty of sport climbs that are much more scary than plenty of trad climbs. I love crack climbing for instance, but if you are on short cracks like in the UK, you can lead the thing with your harness hardly ever getting higher than your last piece. It's virtually top roping. Meanwhile some sport routes feel more like ice climbing - when you are three or four metres above your last piece of gear and doing hard moves (whatever 'hard' means to you).

In reply to atlantis:

For all the other climbers viewing this thread, I wouldn't even bother to respond to it, evidently the OP was just out to cause an argument or problems between climbers that like doing sport as opposed to trad.

Just a trolling thread if you ask me that didn't work in his favour as he likely wanted it to.

Personally to the OP I won't be responding to you again as I have said all I needed to on it, and clearly you are just out for an argument anyway.

In reply to andy farnell: i dont hate sport climbing,but i dont find sport climbs memorable,years later you remember every move and gear placement on a trad climb yet on a sport climb i hardly remember the climb at all....

In reply to TobyA:


You are talking out your arse . .

if it makes you feel better thinking that trad climbing is virtually top roping then thats fine by me..

In reply to atlantis: I read your thread and said what I felt it looked like. There is (on this site anyway, not on others) a 'trad is best and the rest sucks' attitude from some of the posters. That attitude simply entrenches the 'us v them' position.

Personally, I've climbed a vast volume of trad, bouldering and sport. I've enjoyed them all and believe all are equal (something alluded to in the initial post). I started the thread to get the discussion going, and I'm glad it has.

You may think I have a bad attitude, I think you need to broaden your horizons.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:
For such an apparently innocuous post you seem to have caused an awful lot of trouble.

In reply to AndyE9:
The only tiny little problem with your theory is that the first bolted climbs predate the first indoor lead walls by quite a long way...

In reply to andy farnell: I'm with Monk and Rocksteady. Happy to do both. Sport makes one able to climber harder trad.

In reply to AndyE9:

>
>
>

Wow. What is it with UKC at the moment? Loads of relative novice climbers acting like they know everything there is to know about climbing, and telling people who have been climbing for 10+ years that they don't know what they are talking about!


For what it's worth, I agree with Toby. On a good crack, it is perfectly possible to have overhead/waist height gear all the way. I have also backed off a sport climb through fear of a huge fall...

In reply to AndyE9:


He has a point though, some of it is virtually top-roping. There seems to be a common misconception that trad is inherently gnarly and dangerous but for the vast majority of climbers out on any given weekend that's just not the case. The idea that every trad route is a death trap is just as ridiculous as the idea that every sport route is safe or non-scary.

Scared? Just whack another bit of gear in.
Tired? Shuffle back to a ledge to rest.
Can't commit? Back off it, consoling yourself that 'it was unjustifiably dangerous' or 'the leader must not fall'.

I'm not saying sport is better than trad, or vice versa. I enjoy both, depending on what mood I'm in and where I want to go at the weekend. I just think that maybe you should go and actually try sport climbing before pontificating on here that it's basically the same as indoor climbing.

In reply to andy farnell: If you want to climb trad don't use the bolts, Simple.

In reply to Monk:
I am not trying to teach anyone about climbing and have said several times I'm a novice. Being a climbing novice does not equate to idiot though, and as pixie said, what I disagree with is that the two can't coexist ( except in some people's minds )

This idea that you're out there on a limb the whole time is stuff I hear all the time in various forms from people who want 'their thing' to be authoritative and elusive.

But perhaps you're right, next time I see a proper climber, I'll make sure I courtsy properly in respect.


I am not questioning your ability as a climber, comparing myself to you or any such thing.

I pay my tax and own those rock as much as you do matey.

In reply to andy farnell:

Really?

In reply to andy farnell:

this thread is ridiculous. in the kindest way possible i really do hope that in 20 years time i don't end up like some of the posters on this forum.

in response to the tradattack/tyroneslater discussion about trad climbing a bolted line, i totally agree with tradattack and i'm sure most users do.

tyroneslater, i admire you enthusiasm to learn, but i genuinely think you would benefit a lot more from climbing with others. yes, i know you have said you need a patient partner (they do exist). but through watching others climb you will learn ropework etc, quickly correct your mistakes (we all make them) and learn so much more, especially technique which will improve your climbing leaps and bounds. i would really reconsider this option before you head out self-trading.

in response to the OP (!)

i bloody love sport climbing!!!!!! and i couldnt give too sh*ts if any of you think its more or less pure. if i wanted to be the purest climber ever in existence on the UKC forums, i would go live in a cave, survive on a raw food diet and climb 200m faces on el cap barefoot solo every morning and afternoon.

i started out as a boulderer. i like getting my feet above my head (no comments) and trying ridiculously technical moves. i also like achieving 'strong' moves on tiny holds. i love the physical, technical and mental challenge of sport climbing. for me its all about finding the easiest way to climb a route at my very limit, and i'm sure this feeling is the same for anyone trying to climb their first F5 or to break into F7's or even trying to achieve their first F9a.

interstingly, my first experiences of outdoor climbing was on trad. liked it but it didnt allow me to climb at my physical limit at that time. maybe sometime in the future i will pursue it again but not for a long while.

whether or not trad is better than sport, or vice versa. i dont think many people genuinely care. this is a non-arguement. every climber enjoys their own particular aspects of the sport, and will pursue whatever style they feel best suits them.

i climb because of the enjoyment i personally get out of it, because of the places it takes me and the people i meet.

at the end of the day.....
we all post on UKC because we are climbers (one would hope). it is such a shame to see fellow climbers so disunited.

In reply to andy farnell:

No, you were attacking me for posting my thread and incorrectly narrow mindedly assuming it was to slam sport climbing, and praise trad, when you totally missed the point of my thread completely.

Personally I couldn't give a stuff what you think, as you proved as much to me anyway how utterly narrow minded, judgemental and assuming you really are.

I am not about to make your problem mine, so kindly take your own narrow minded advice and try being more broad minded yourself rather than assuming the worst every time someone posts a thread you happen to not like. As I said, you can choose to not read it in that case rather than get on your high horse.

In reply to:

And unlike you from what you have posted and raved about, my mind is far more broad.

If you want to judge others that posted comments that you didn't like, then target those people in particular in future and have a war over it rather than target me for posting my thread. I notice you didn't comment on my thread with them over what you disliked which is another valid reason it is obvious you posted this one purely to cause trouble.

And like anyone else on this forum, I will post any thread I want to find out more feedback about, that is not up to you to decide in any case.

In reply to mynameisjen:

Agreed 100%, and very well said on all the above. It is a ridiculous thread and if you ask me should have been ignored.

In reply to teflonpete:


Exactly, and if I didn't know any different that I would say, was the whole aim of this thread for why Andy F posted it in the first place. He wanted that response.

In reply to mrjonathanr:

Well that was what he was purely trying to achieve, in case you didn't know

Pity everyone didn't ignore this thread instead, but maybe next time he takes off on his high horse they will.

In reply to atlantis:

No, I don't think I did. A thread titled 'who else trad prefers trad climbing over sport climbing' clearly thinks that trad is superior. When it's just different.


Read your own posts. Try other facets of the sport. Then come back.


So, by saying try lots of stuff and then come back is narrow minded? Higher in this thread I posted 'Personally, I've climbed a vast volume of trad, bouldering and sport. I've enjoyed them all and believe all are equal'. That is narrow minded? As I said before, broaden your horizons, try new things, don't slate things you haven't done or don't understand.

Andy F

In reply to climbingpixie:


Thanks. Although your profile picture is definitely one I would put in the proper gnarly trad box!

In reply to AndyE9:


He's talking out of extensive experience playing both games. You sir sound like a teenage kid who's been devouring climbing mags and watching too much Hard Grit.

Answering on of your earlier posts: There's nothing dull or forgettable about sport when you get into the swing of it. You mentioned up-thread that you'd done some, can I ask where/what? And more importantly, in what style, how much work did you put into it, was your hardest route ticked onsight, in a couple of goes, over the course of a day, over several weeks? How did it feel first time you realised the crux was doable, sorting that much needed rest, running out of steam high up with the hard work all done, going home knowing you'd have it next go if you were just a little fresher, finding yourself at the same position strong and in control a week later, fumbling a clip wondering whether to burn out persevering with it or drop the rope and press on for the next? How did it feel clipping the chains, having your investment pay off?

If you've onsighted a few bolt routes you found steady-away you've not climbed in a sport style, you've climbed on bolts. I can see where the confusion creeps in and I don't mean to patronise but you're making some pretty strong assertions from what appears a pretty weak base of experience.

There's no sport in your logbook, I guess you don't record it since it's all just training?

jk

In reply to jkarran:

Thanks for that. I stopped myself saying something similar to Andy E9 as I wouldn't have written it as eloquently.

In reply to mynameisjen:

Gosh, Jen,
you can't go being all reasonable!! It's outrageous!


It isn't so much that I need a patient partner, I do have some days where the cramps come and just won't go. Imagine driving up to the lakes with me for a climb only to find the day is off because I can't do it that day. How pissed off would you be? Even if you were nice about it and pretended it was all ok, it would be effing annoying! I wouldn't like putting someone in that positition and that would ruin it for me.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

He didn't call you a tw*t, he politely pointed out that there is a substantial amount of evidence that suggests that when people with little experience or knowledge make bad decisions, they will genuinely be unable to believe that they are wrong.

This in turn is the central point of the debate, and is applicable to the many of the posters on this thread. Including, no doubt, me!

In reply to andy farnell: I don't think the majority of trad climers do look down on sport climbers most people I,v climbed with, mostly trad climbers would happely climb at a sport venue. If there were more lower grade sport venues in this country then I'm sure a lot more people who only climb trad would use them. You,ve only got to look at the amount of people who usual trad climb that go to Spain France and Greece for there holidays to confirm this.

In reply to all: this is starting to sound like a 5 live post game phone in ...

"my teams better than yours because we have a fash new forward"

"Yea well our teams made up of home grown players"

"Blah blah blah ...gooo gooo goooo"





now come on let all just have big HUG !! and make up ...

come on now




yup even you E9 ... come on


give us a cuddle

go on


just a little one...


awe thats better


Now dont be silly no one asked you boulder boy ...go on...off with you ... back to your little cave..go on

Awe alright then ....but leave your ladder thier



Ah Peace !!




now on to the middle east

In reply to Alun:

I understood that, but thought the 'hope you understand it' was somewhat less than polite.

I wouldn't mind, but I am not prone to overstating myself to others, or to myself. I understand my limitation and even understand that there are things I don't understand. None of this is about ego for me. It's about getting it right.

The funny thing is, one of my past hobbies has a human factors training requirement which you have to pass before you can even practise the hobby!


So yes, the article applies to me as it applies to everyone, the difference with me is, I already know this and watch for it.

In reply to AndyE9:


Wow again. You failed to comment on my previous comment pointing out that bolt-protected climbing actually predates the first indoor walls.

I also think it's pretty cute that you really seem to think that trad climbing is more 'extreme' than sport climbing. Pottering up a VS in full control above trad gear (which is far more solid than you seem to think) is a very different game to working at your absolute physical limit on a bolt protected route.

I think that your assessment of what makes trad climbing good is fair, but I think that you are dead wrong with your dismissal of bolt-protected climbing. You have also failed to answer the question about where and what you have climbed on bolts.

Having said all this, everyone is perfectly entitled to their preferences. If you said "I much prefer trad to sport for this reason" that is fair enough, but you appear to be trying to set trad climbing on a pedestal.

In reply to AndyE9:

Wrong - bolted climbing pre dates leading walls.

I backed off a 12 bolt sport route last week - why was that?

E

In reply to Enty:


Answer option a) because it was 4 pitches long with just one bolt runner a pitch? Or b) because you're getting old and lazy?

In reply to Tyroneslater:

That's what they all say!

In reply to Enty:

Because it felt too much like indoor climbing? I often back off 12 bolt sport routes indoors.

In reply to andy farnell:

>A thread titled 'who else trad prefers trad climbing over sport climbing' clearly thinks that trad is superior. When it's just different.

Curious thing to say. What about a thread asking who prefers marmalade to jam?

jcm

Because you only had 6 quickdraws . . .


one more thing, people even use a pole to clip the first runner for them with sports climbing, when i first saw this I thought it was a joke...

whatever next soon you will be telling me that the quickdraws are pre placed too.... pmsl....

In reply to Enty:

Boredom?

In reply to Tyroneslater:


So you think lead-soloing is the better solution? It just makes no sense!

You said somewhere up thread that you'd listen if someone would tell you why something is a poor idea, not just that it is. I expect this is ten minutes wasted but what the hell...

Firstly, you're on your own, *any* accident you have has the potential to be much more serious. I have friends alive today that have had simple accidents that had they been alone would have killed them, not because they'd have fallen further but through exposure and choking. If you climb long enough you *will* have an accident, please stack the odds of surviving it in your favour.

Rope soloing is difficult and awkward to the point where it pretty much spoils the experience of climbing. You have a heavy rope on your back and a jam-prone device at your waist holding you down whenever you move up. To do it safely (all relative!) it demands competence you have yet to gain.

Because of this awkwardness you have to choose easy routes, routes with frequent rests where you can sort your rope out and place your gear in comfort.

Because the rope jams (unpleasant) as you move from ledge to ledge you tend to pull out slack before you move meaning any fall is sizeable.

This process is slow and not very enjoyable, I may have already mentioned that.

Climbing in this fashion places greater demands on your gear, peak loads are higher and the stakes are higher, climbing on broken ground you can't afford a blown placement. Ok, so placing good runners on good rock with regular placements when you know what you're doing but you don't, you're teaching yourself in just about the highest possible risk environment imaginable. Trial and error is fine when you can afford to pay the price of the error. Here, you can't.

Also your belay has got to be good, really good this is a demanding application. Ok, this isn't hugely difficult but you will make mistakes, we all do when we start out and without someone else to check they'll go un-noticed, you'll continue to think you're more competent than you are.

Likewise your runners, you'll have no constructive critique, you'll continue to make the same mistakes in blissful ignorance while reinforcing bad habits.

So you've picked a route so easy you won't fall. It's ledgy and your belay is less than ideal so you can't afford to fall. Then you've increased the risk of a fall by dragging an awkward rope system up behind you. You've spoiled a perfectly good climb/scramble you could have soloed.

Now lets add in your cramps, you're shuffling from ledge to ledge, you've maybe done a couple of mantles and you're looking for your next runner and your cramp sets in, you're all alone, you may be mid move facing a dangerous tumble. Does this sound like a good idea.

So lets assume the worst. You fall and bump your head. You're only out for a few minutes maybe and a partner would have called in a rescue and lowered you to a ledge. You can't call in a rescue, you're slumped back in your harness struggling to breathe with a worsening head injury.

Lets assume the middle case, you make a move up that you're not happy to reverse (common occurrence), the way the rope and gear are arranged don't protect you very well (perhaps because you chose a ledgy climb - this happens, it's part of climbing and no supposed skill on your part will improve the situation). You don't like the move above. Fear and uncertainty grow. You're cragfast and alone.

Lets assume the best, you picked your route well and you top out happy. You now have to retrieve your gear. This involves an abseil, another high risk activity where trial and error is not an acceptable learning method. If you think abseiling is simple/safe then do a little research, see how many of the leading lights of their day have died performing this simple end of day task rather than climbing. Again, any accident you have here is made much more serious by being alone.

Even a simple tangle leaving you hanging on the rope mid route becomes a potentially serious problem alone. Simple mistakes like the rope not reaching the floor become serious issues. Think it won't happen to you? Think again.

So that's your day done, you've ruined your experience of a perfectly pleasant scramble by climbing alone with rope and in the process you've increased the risk of injury. Does this sound like a good idea to you?

Lead soloing does have a niche application in hard aid climbing, there are very good reasons why it is not practiced outside of that field by anyone else! I've listed above a few good reasons why it's not done and especially why it's a poor choice for a novice with a medical problem that inhibits their ability to climb or self-rescue. I'm sure you'll think I'm exaggerating, talking up the risks, talking up the problems to put you down. I'm not, I genuinely think by going about your learning in this way you're taking big and unnecessary risks you don't fully understand. I'm not going to get all sanctimonious about what will happen when you do need rescue but it is worth bearing in mind. Climbing is a great hobby and I'd very much like to see you find your way into it safely.

jk

In reply to Hat Dude:

Nope.

E

In reply to TobyA:

Nearly right.

E

In reply to Tyroneslater:

Join a club. That way if you go on a club trip there should be enough of you that if you aren't up to climbing that day it won't be a problem.

In reply to jkarran:

So you think lead-soloing is the better solution? It just makes no sense!
(yes, because the alternative is not to climb at all and I wish to climb)

You said somewhere up thread that you'd listen if someone would tell you why something is a poor idea, not just that it is. I expect this is ten minutes wasted but what the hell...
( It isn't wasted, it's appreciated, but much of what you've said has been considered)

Firstly, you're on your own, *any* accident you have has the potential to be much more serious. I have friends alive today that have had simple accidents that had they been alone would have killed them, not because they'd have fallen further but through exposure and choking. If you climb long enough you *will* have an accident, please stack the odds of surviving it in your favour.
( I understand this and accept it. It IS safer to climb with a partner. No argument. But I know me, I would hate to be the person holding up the show. I have been competent at pretty much everything I have attempted in life ( at least in part because I pcik the kind of things I enjoy which happen to be the sorts of things I'm competent in) To climb with a partner and have to call it a day would only highlight the very physical problems I am trying to at least partially overcome)

Rope soloing is difficult and awkward to the point where it pretty much spoils the experience of climbing. You have a heavy rope on your back and a jam-prone device at your waist holding you down whenever you move up. To do it safely (all relative!) it demands competence you have yet to gain.
( I understand I do not have the competence yet and fully intended to start simply and progress. With regard to holding rope on my back, I do not intend to. Rope will be ground anchored and pulled up. The maximun weight I will carry will be the height I am currently climbing at)


Because of this awkwardness you have to choose easy routes, routes with frequent rests where you can sort your rope out and place your gear in comfort.
( I don't have ANY neck muscles on my right side, and no pectoral on my right side. ALL climbing I do is going to have to be relatively easy! do not expect to excel at climbing unfortunately. )

Because the rope jams (unpleasant) as you move from ledge to ledge you tend to pull out slack before you move meaning any fall is sizeable.
( Not applicable to the setup I want to try)

This process is slow and not very enjoyable, I may have already mentioned that.
(The setup I want to try is not a lot different to normal leading)

Climbing in this fashion places greater demands on your gear, peak loads are higher and the stakes are higher, climbing on broken ground you can't afford a blown placement. Ok, so placing good runners on good rock with regular placements when you know what you're doing but you don't, you're teaching yourself in just about the highest possible risk environment imaginable. Trial and error is fine when you can afford to pay the price of the error. Here, you can't.
( The loads will not be higher on my gear. I will be picking my climbs to suit the fact I am solo and wherever possible I will be below my gear, however, I accept that the ground anchor system does introduce more gear. Acceptable to me, and I will always operate on the " two is one, one is none" principle)

Also your belay has got to be good, really good this is a demanding application. Ok, this isn't hugely difficult but you will make mistakes, we all do when we start out and without someone else to check they'll go un-noticed, you'll continue to think you're more competent than you are.
( I don't intend to always climb alone, just the majority of time, but again, I accept what you say and do intend at least to manage the risk by discussing setup with others. With regard to missing something, of course possible, but I am VERY good at checklisting and have good understanding of weak points)

Likewise your runners, you'll have no constructive critique, you'll continue to make the same mistakes in blissful ignorance while reinforcing bad habits.
(possibly, though as I said, I am not moving in to a hermitage, I merely intend to climb alone a lot of the time)

So you've picked a route so easy you won't fall. It's ledgy and your belay is less than ideal so you can't afford to fall. Then you've increased the risk of a fall by dragging an awkward rope system up behind you. You've spoiled a perfectly good climb/scramble you could have soloed.
(I will be picking relatively easy routes, though not quite that easy. My belay, because of the routes I pick, will be quite low impact, most of the time I'll be below the gear. Yes, I could do better with a partner. But what part of " I don't want to be beholding to someone and ruin their day and waste their time if I can't climb" is it that you're not getting from what I'm telling you about myself???)

Now lets add in your cramps, you're shuffling from ledge to ledge, you've maybe done a couple of mantles and you're looking for your next runner and your cramp sets in, you're all alone, you may be mid move facing a dangerous tumble. Does this sound like a good idea.
( I've had quite a bit of pain and can handle it. Half the time when my cramps hit, you wouldn't even know it was happening. I'm not going to just drop off the ledge. I DO intend to have a static rope nearby to transfer to should I really get into the poo though, not that I am suggesting it solves all problems, but it can help in certain situations)

So lets assume the worst. You fall and bump your head. You're only out for a few minutes maybe and a partner would have called in a rescue and lowered you to a ledge. You can't call in a rescue, you're slumped back in your harness struggling to breathe with a worsening head injury.
( Then I may die. Apart from taxes, it's pretty much the only other sure thing. Though I will tell people where I am going, I will check in, I may even think about an EPIRB or similar if I'm thinking of isolated locations)

( I've abseiled a lot. I am not learning ropes, I have 25 years experience as a sailor, I have a yachtmaster offshore. I'm new to climbing, not life)




I will not have ruined my experience. I am doing the best I can with what I have. To listen to your advice, I may as well have not bothered surviving the operation!
I am not a complete novice. i have MANY transferable skills, but I am not over cocky about them, nor do I suggest what I intend to do is without risk, but I feel that since I haven't even started doing it yet, I am a long way down the road to managing that risk well and not doing anything worse than I see many other climbers doing.
I saw another thread admiring a free soloist. Regardless of his experience, the risk factor to free soloing is massive, yet I don't see you telling him he needs to give it up?

In reply to DaveR:

I think if you are ever in the situation that you've led a very active life, but something comes along which limits you a lot, you'd possibly more understand why I don't want to do it as a club activity. I'm used to being reasonably good at things I try. I am not going to be particularly good at climbing. But I do enjoy it.
I've no wish to join a club and be the person that people make allowances for. I want to do it at my pace, for me, against me.

Hope that makes some sense.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

Er... why's that then?

Mick

In reply to Tyroneslater:


I am genuinely intrigued. How will the rope run if it isn't on your back and is ground anchored? What you are describing is definitely not a set-up used in climbing much.


The loads will be greater, as a substantial part of a normal lead fall is absorbed by the belayer and belay plate giving a relatively dynamic belay.

In reply to AndyE9: to be honest mate i hate newbie bashing because we were all new once and its prtetty arrogant an unfair but you are coming across as a right over excited newbie who reckons they know it all and thinks their one e1 lead is way hardcore. ive seen your posts about your first e1 and what to have on your rack so know where your at.

its fair to say that most trad up to e1 is pretty chill, unless your a complete moron its pretty safe and the danger is more in your head than in reality (again unless your a moron) so its really not that much different from sport except the climbing is a hell of a lot easier and theres a few head games.

like others have said its fine for you to prefer trad for watever reasons but to make such stupid arrogant statements about something you only half understand and ignore the views of some really experienced climbers makes you sound like a right tool.

In reply to Monk:
Monk, to point 1, the rope will anchor at ground, run up through gear over the top of the last piece and back to the ground. I will be clipped on to this either with a death mod gri gri or another device to arrest or slow my descent.

With regard to point two, someone pointed that out to me when I orgiginally asked the question, so at the bottom of the rope will be a shock absorbing knot.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Because I have no sternomastocloid muscle on the right side ( or any of the associated muscles) I have no right side pectorals.
I am also prone to neck cramping when under load which whilst not disabling, are very debilitating.

In reply to tradattack:


While I agree with you to an extent, I think this is a pretty harsh evaluation. There are bold and dangerous routes at all grades.

In reply to AndyE9: Wow, six months experience and telling it how it is.

That Usain Bolt, has got it all wrong, running in a straight line with no obstacles. What an empty experience, instantly forgettable, it's all over so quick ! Someone ought to tell him about the hurdles or better still, the pole vault, that's where the real challenge is.

Come back when you have done some climbing.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

So will one end just be loose on the ground to enable it to feed? I suspect that you might have to vary this when you try it. Firstly when you are above your gear, it is going to be very tricky for the grigri to feed smoothly due to the U bend in the rope, plus you are going to have double the rope drag/weight you would get otherwise.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

mate there i understand the whole pride thing but seriously theres nothing wrong with not bein the best, most of us never are. a good part of why i climb is going away with mates, enjoying the countryside, having a laugh. doesnt always have to be pushing, can be enjoying the view, having a chat, checking out the birds feathered or otherwise. sounds like your gonna miss out on loads of the good bits that come with climbing!

you say your gonna take ages and would need a patient belayer - loads of trad leads take ages - its normal - ive belayed for 4hrs on a 20m VS before! thats ok its all part and parcel. do you mind me asking why you would take ages and why you dont think you'll be good?

In reply to Monk:

That's correct, it will be loose fed from ground, but I prefer this to the alternative of carrying the rope for the very reasons JK points out.

I know the anti slip/arrest part needs work and it's currently the weak spot of the whole thing for me.

In reply to Monk:

yea fair enough. its just they way hes chatting like some hardcore death route climber running it out miles above gear eating adrenaline for breakfast was pissing me off.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

I appreciate what you are saying, no one likes to hold other people back. But most clubs will have members of varying climbing ability and physical abaility, so you may find others in a similar situation to yourself. Not saying that it will definately will be the way for you, but I certainly wouldn't discount it.

In reply to tradattack:

Trad, In do know what you mean, not much I like better than sitting around in the sun with a couple of beers and some friends after a hard day of activity! But I do have mates you know! The reason I'm not going to be that good is posted slightly earlier, I'm missing a few muscles and cramp up a lot.

In reply to Tyroneslater:


When people are learning new things, they make mistakes. Everybody does. It is how you learn. As well as the competence stuff (building belays correctly, placing gear so it won't fall out) there is the stupid stuff that we all know not to do in theory - forgetting to tie in, abbing off the tails of your ropes, placing gear but forgetting to clip it - it all happens, everyone has done it, mostly as a result of lapses of attention or being distracted - and you will have many, many things to attend to at any one time. Usually, when learning climbing, you have someone keeping an eye on what you are doing and able to bail you out if you get it wrong, and a combination of that, and dumb luck, means serious accidents tend to be infrequent; ie. most people get away with it most of the time.

Learning on the job is all well and good in theory, but as a result of the system you are proposing, and the fact you will be on your own, the consequences of your mistakes will potentially be much, much more serious. Something that would be a minor inconvenience on a normal setup could spiral into a potentially fatal clusterf*ck.

To be blunt, and at the risk of sounding over dramatic, the risk is that you may not live long enough to learn from your mistakes.

People would be giving you less of a hard time if, either: a) it sounded like you knew what you were doing, or b) you didn't come across so much like you are convinced that you do know everything there is to know about what you propose to be doing.

At the risk of being patronising -

I get that you don't want to be reliant on others - I get that overcoming a debilitating condition is a strong motivation for you. Why not try to strike up a partnership with someone who's also coming from a similar sort of background? (overcoming a phsyical issue) - so you can progress as equals rather than someone having to 'make allowances' for you?

If you insist on doing it alone, have you considered bouldering?

In reply to Tyroneslater: i never said you didnt have mates! but sounds like your interested in climbing and so gonna spend a fair amount of time doing it so would be a shame to do it alone.

i reckon you'll still climb better than a load of people you will jus have to find out what style of route works for you and a style of climbing that works for you.

theres a load of wicked climbers out there with various disadvantages they overcome in all sorts of ways.

In reply to Tyroneslater:


With all respect, that is a bit like saying the part of the system that needs work is the bit that stops you hitting the ground when you fall off.

In reply to Tyroneslater:


That's *an* alternative. There are several better ones. Climbing in a group or club being the most obvious. Top-rope soloing being another more realistic solo introduction to climbing.


Again in a group there's no shame in sitting around having a brew and cake or belaying. In most groups I climb with there's usually someone too tired/hungover/injured to climb at any given time, it's no big deal. Likewise when someone freezes on a route, it's one of those things that happens, it's normal and accepted.


You don't really get to start simple, you have to get it all right from the outset or there's no point in doing it. Did you teach yourself to fly by jumping in solo?

Pulling the rope up makes the feeding much harder and risks the rope you're pulling up jamming. You carry it for a reason, it's a pain but it's the lesser evil.


Unless you're going to stick to ledgey slabby continuously useable cracks (there aint many of them) you will be climbing above your gear and you will not want to be feeding slack mid move. I'm not hypothesising about this, I've done it and it's pretty crap as climbing experiences go.


What set-up is that then? The difference is not one big thing, it's the combination of all the little things that radically increase the hassle and risk.


In otherwise like for like situations replacing the belayer with a ground anchor will increase loads, it will decrease your margin for error. You will make errors, experienced or not we all do.


*You* are the weak link, your inexperience is. Any checklist you make will require you to exorcise judgement, straight out of the box with no climbing experience (irrespective of your other skills and experience) that judgement is questionable.


I hear what you're saying about climbing alone but you're not even talking about doing that in the most sensible fashion. Doing what you propose is foolhardy, I'm sorry but it is. I'd say the same to someone with real world climbing experience.


Without a partner to flick it to you on all but the most straight up of routes you can pretty much count on it being out of reach when the sh** hits the fan. Again, I'm not hypothesising, I've been that guy screaming for a rope!


Rigging off rock, dealing with the intricacies of routing the rope safely down a rock face or rigging off a solid stainless fitting on a mast?


Well good luck. I'd prefer you found a safer way into it.


Personally I don't free solo, that's a decision I've made from a position of experience. If somebody wants to make a different decision from a similar position then I'll neither praise nor criticise them for it, that's an informed personal decision and one I'd respect. Were they to be making that decision from a position of apparent ignorance then I would be more inclined to say something.

jk

In reply to AndyE9:


Sorry Andy, but you really aren't, and on many different things not just on the point above. Once you've done some more climbing I expect you'll probably start to see what we're trying to explain.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

It isn't a bit like saying it, it IS saying it. That doesn't make it insurmountable and to be honest, some pretty good climbers have given me some leads on various devices I might look at rather than just telling me 'it can't be done'

In reply to Tyroneslater:

Right, I'm done, I don't want to give you a hard time, believe it or not I'm trying to be helpful. I know it probably feels like you're been ganged up upon and browbeaten, I'm sorry if I'm making that worse.

Maybe you could give this chap a shout for a chat http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=10905 (there's an email link in the profile) he always comes across as a decent and exceptionally helpful person. He's active, works as an instructor and so far as I'm aware he has physical issues quite similar to yours.

Best of luck,
jk

In reply to jkarran:
No, I've abseiled from rock fairly often when younger. I've even done some limited classic abseiling ( which is bloody nasty!)

I am not saying I know everything, but you really ought to credit me with the transferable abilities I DO have

(1) Ex PPL ( human factors are quite a big area for this)
(2) Extensive knowledge of knots and their usage due to 25 years of sailing
(3) Excellent ability to self error check due to the two hobbies above which rely on it
(4) 25 years in the construction industry, good understanding of materials
(5) Engineering degree, a long time ago it's true, but an excellent understanding of forces.



For all of the above, I am NOT over confident. I just want to do something that not quite the norm, which I understand attracts a bit of a safety penalty, and I'm workin through those penalties to try to mitigate them wherever possible..... a quite sensible approach I feel


I don't get why everyone is insistent that I should not give this a go.

In reply to jkarran:

JK, I'll do that, ta. And I'm not holding any grudges, honest!

In reply to Tyroneslater:

No one on this thread has told you 'it can't be done', what people are trying to communicate that it is theoretically possible but in practice will be very complicated, awkward, dangerous, a lot of hassle, and not that much fun; and that although you appear to have fixated on this one way of doing things, there are a host of easier, safer and more practical ways to get your kicks.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

If you're worried about letting a climbing buddy down why not climb as a trio.

In reply to jkarran:

Commendable patience there JKA!

In reply to Tyroneslater:


They're not saying that: they are pointing out pitfalls and risks and trying to suggest safer and more satisfying ways for you to climb.

In reply to jamiev:

Which I have repeatedly said I do not wish to do.

I would far more appreciate that people read what I wrote ( I.E. that I have not implemented this and will not until I'm happy with it, that I'm not being arrogant, I am looking for ways to mitigate risk, and rather than be told by you lot that I ought to do it as you say, perhaps be offered ideas on how I can accomplish what I actually WANT to do safely, which is what I asked for.

Some people who appear to have every bit as much experience as yourtselves have managed to grasp that I'm not going to be recklessly leaping off cliffs and trusting myself to a badly placed cam, and offered constructive advice which I'm looking at.

In reply to AndyE9:

Your attitude is fairly standard for someone with very limited experience getting hooked on the trad buzz - that's cool, I was there, too, many many years ago. I also used to think that there was nothing to sport climbing ("sport climbing is neither" etc), no head game yadda yadda. In terms of my climbing, that attitude held back my own development for years.

If you speak to experienced, strong climbers, you'll find that although they may prefer one or the other discipline, they invariably dabble in all that climbing offers - trad, sport, bouldering, ice etc, and - importantly - they have the utmost respect for people (and their skills) who have chosen to specialise in a different discipline.

You say you aspire to climb E2. If you want to get better at trad, learn to sport climb, and focus on bouldering. You will accelerate your own development as a climber, and your trad grade will sky rocket.

And - trust me - the mental aspect of sports climbing, although a slightly different flavour, is equally as strong as those found in trad.

Here's the rub: if I could go back 20 years in time and give myself one piece of climbing advice it would have been to not scoff at sport and bouldering.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

People are actually offering very constructive advice based entirely on what you wrote. Perhaps it's not entirely what you want to hear though?


I'm sure we can all grasp that. That would clearly be stupid. But the advice - which is being offered with much goodwill, as far as i can see, that is being given is specifically about the potential pitfalls of your system. We know you don't want to try it until you're happy about it, but several climbers have given you the benefit of their experience to try to point out pitfalls that may not become obvious until you are using your proposed system.

In reply to TobyA and AndyE9:

rather impressed with your restraint there Toby; one of Andy's comments to you was particularly rude and obnoxious.

In reply to jamiev:

Some people have pointed out reasonable pitfalls. I've mentioned this. Some people have been proactively halpful in pointing out pitfalls AND possible solutions.

I am grateful for this.

What I'm not at all grateful for are comments such as how patient your friend has been with me.
I'm not grateful being constantly told I ought to climb with a partner or in a club etc.

I wish to develope a way to climb lead solo which does away with having the rope on your back. I am perfectly happy to back it up with a static rope nearby if needed.

I have no issue with people pointing out issues, but really do dislike this whole idea that it's some kind of black art. It isn't, and as I have discussed, my previous hobbies have eminently transferable skills which I am already implementing but not going off half cocked.

It does wear me down that I'm fielding the constant stream of 'don't do this' instead of concnetrating on what I'm asking for.

As for 'not what I want to hear' I have taken on board every single comment which relates directly to the method I wish to use, and acknowldeged it every time, or if not, specifically stated that I understand that particular risk and what I have done to mitigate it, or in certain instances, accepted it as a risk.

In reply to Stefan Kruger:


some good points , I do a lot of bouldering , and do climb some sports routes , as I understand that all aspects of this sport is benificial to becoming a more rounded climber. the point that I was trying to make was that trad climbing is more involved than the sports side with the added factors of placing your own gear.

I would hate to be limited to one style of climbing and by doing so I feel that a climber wouldnt reach there full potential . . I do have goals that I have set myself and I have been planning for a ice climbing trip at the end of the year, I try and mix up my climbing so that I can take the best from each part..

In reply to AndyE9: trad climbing is more involved in certain aspects - as you tend to climb below your limit and have many more mental aspects it is in many ways less involved in the purely physical side of climbing.

sport climbing and bouldering are great for their pure focus on movement. by taking away the real risk it allows the climber to focus purely on perfect movement on rock, to pull as hard as you possibly can unconstrained by worries of gear and falling. for many this is more enjoyable.

the thing which has upset people is that you have come on and talked the big talk without being able to back it up. poo pooing another equally important side of the sport through a blinkered view.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

Erm. I've never met JKA in my life or exchanged emails with (?him), so he's not a friend. His post simply struck me as particularly constructive - in that it wasn't simply negative, it was explicit about potential pitfalls with your specific system; and it provided some alternative ideas. it looked like he'd tried to go through this in a helpful and detailed manner. I was going to post some specific comments about the method you want to use - which would be meant in a spirit of concern that you'd considered all potential risks - but found that all that i would have said had been said already.


I think you've made that clear!


Again you've made it clear that this is what you want to do. It's not a black art. It's a perfectly feasible thing to do, albeit with complicated timeconsuming setup and potential dangers which you are acknowledging, and i'm sure you will be careful, and hope that you won't get into trouble, and that you'll have rewarding experiences.

But - and this isn't offered necessarily as an alternative to what you want to start doing, but perhaps as a precursor to it - have you considered bouldering? There might be much to gain in terms of satisfaction, developing a repertoire of techniques to stand you in great stead for longer climbs, understanding what moves you find easy and hard, etc. You'd get alot more moves done per session climbing, which is good for development. And you can be in as much solitude as you wish!

In reply to jamiev:

I have been bouldering and top roping for a few months last season and a little bit this year. I started on walls last year, but didn't overly enjoy them. I seem to lean toward wanting to do trad climbing, or as close as I can get. When time and weather allow, I still go top roping or bouldering and have no intention of stopping either at the moment!

I like Anglezarke, though it's limited for me, I boulder at brownstones whenever I've time off in the week, but don't usually bother weekends as it's busy. I like windgather a lot because whilst the climbs are easy, they are good practice for placing gear. I hope to get a lot more time in over the next few months.

In reply to AndyE9:
>

Trad gear placement certainly is a skill and aspect specific to trad climbing. Sport climbing has other aspects that you typically don't get in trad, as does bouldering, ice etc - that's kind of the point.

With sport climbing, part of the attraction is getting to feel like you are climbing something really *well*, even at your limit - on trad, near your limit, it's a lot of upping and downing, disco-legging, wobbling, grunting, fretting - whereas when you finally send your sport redpoint it tends to feel curiously effortless. It's also a very good way of both getting route-fit, and practice hard moves in relative safety, both of which are useful aspects to take to your trad aspirations.

Trad is all about the onsight, which will put a much lower limit on your climbing. If you're onsighting your sport routes, you've picked something that's too easy - your projects should always feel impossible the first few attempts - finally ticking them off is the reward that's unique to sport climbing (or to redpointing, at least). Most novice trad-bred climbers in the UK take a trad-attitude to sport climbing, and as a consequence it feels wrong and empty.

Free yourself from the tyranny of the onsight

In reply to Stefan Kruger:

I have only experienced this in a very limited fashion while bouldering, but the working out of problems which at first you just can't get is immensely satisfying.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

Absolutely - it's the same thing.

In reply to Stefan Kruger:


>

I love sport onsighting, and wouldn't write it off so easily. I love trying things that I just don't know if I can get up when I start, and I know are going to be utterly desperate. You can push so much closer to the edge when you only have to clip a bolt rather than hang on for 5 minutes while you fiddle in a wire. It's enlightening to see just what you can get up when you aren't worrying about the gear. I love the mental aspect of onsighting - working out the moves, spotting rests and finding a sequence that works in lightning fast time.

I do enjoy the depth of experience from redpointing too, but don't think that's everything.

I would suggest that it less about the tyranny of the onsight, and more about freeing yourself from the tyranny of fear, to embrace the purely physical and analytical side of climbing.

In reply to Monk: how about liberate ourselves from the tryanny of over analysing and pigeon holing and lets go climbing.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

Are you EZ in disguise?

E

In reply to Enty:

I'm not. the only reason i've no picture up is because unlike any other website in the known universe, this one complains when pictures are too small rather than too big!

I am infering that you think my posting is deliberately inflamatory. It isn't. It's just blunt, which sometimes doesn't come across well.

In reply to tradattack:

Tomorrow I will, but today I am stuck indoors dreaming.

In reply to Monk: yep. it sucks. debating the semantics of climbing is a poor substitute. oh well.

In reply to Monk: I'm like you Monk, just substitute cycling for hill walking.

But if some people want to get all hot in the collar about the differing genre's of climbing, I just shrug my shoulders and walk away.

Their choice in my mind, I'll keep enjoying them all.

Scott

In reply to sasmojo:

Me too but isn't it fun watching threads like this.
I know loads of climbers well and over 25 years I've met even more but I'm struggling to find anyone who doesn't enjoy sport, trad and Bouldering.

E

In reply to Enty:

An older guy I used to work with used to say

"There's no such thing as bad beer, somes just worse than others."

In reply to andy farnell:

I just love climbing. Period.
Sorry, I didn't bother reading the full thread.

S.

In reply to James Moyle:


Pretty much my view. Ill sport climb but prefer multi pitch trad I dont climb to prove how fit and good I'm at climbing I climbing for the adventure and just for the sheer enjoyment of being outside I know other people climb for other reasons and there reason are just as valid.

But a natural cliff shouldn't be bolted. If its a natural rock and cant be protected properly with trad gear then I'm afraid it just wasn't meant to climbed.

In reply to Enty:

Maybe it was the 3 bottles of Chateau neuf du pape (or something cheaper) you drank the night before.

Al

In reply to Tyroneslater:

your posts dont come across as inflamatory, or blunt, just lacking in the relevant knowledge and experience of the subject being discussed by people that do.

In reply to stephen Rowley:



Meant by who?

In reply to andy farnell:
I solo, I lead, I second or third sometimes, I sport climb and I boulder. It's all climbing :0) Hoorah to the greatest sport on earth!

In reply to Enty: I have only met one who is strongly against anything involving axes and crampons. But up to about 2-3 years ago he was also strongly against trad, but that tune has changed. Only time with most I think, then they forget they ever felt that way.

In reply to stephen Rowley:


Do you use chalk?

In reply to Seymore Butt:

Fixed the window you broke on the same night pissed - 85€

E

In reply to stephen Rowley:

An absolutely valid opinion, and one that I can see the merit of. I love doing long easy mountain routes which are not in the slightest bit taxing.


And there you spoil it... Yet another person climbing less than a year, but passing judgement on what should or should not be bolted. If nothing else, this thread appears to be demonstrating that the trad evangelists are mostly inexperienced new climbers.

You should have a google of some photos of crags in Europe (Ceuse, for example) before you pass judgement. There are some utterly beautiful, natural but very blank sheets of rock that beg to be climbed but are unprotectable without bolts. Is it really so wrong?

In reply to Monk:

So, 30 and more years ago back when trad used pitons which couldn't always be removed, how did trad climbers cope with gear being available to them which they hadn't placed?

didn't that take away from the 'purity'?

In reply to Tyroneslater:

We removed them. From the time I started climbing in the late 60s right through to the end of the 70s there was a sustained 'free the Pass' campaign, so that by 1980 I don't think there was a single in situ peg left. Mind you, even with the pegs (typically only one or two per route) – before the advent of good commercial nuts, and long before the invention of Friends – virtually every route was many times more serious and more badly protected than they are today.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I was wondering about that, I don't climb difficult routes, but did wonder where all the pegs were! I thought there should be a lot more 'remains'

What spurred on such a radical change?

In reply to Tyroneslater:

I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make, or how that relates to the post above. Pitons have always been a source of debate in the UK. Have a browse for the history of Munich Climb, for example. Or the opinion of climbers like Joe Brown on how many pegs were fair game. Or even the history of Piton route in the Avon gorge. 'Ethics' have always had grey areas, and this is definitely one of them.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

The invention of modern protection gear, which made the pegs redundant, and all routes much tamer and safer.

In reply to Monk:

I suppose the point if there was one was evolution.

But I was just actually asking a question which occured to me because it seems that trad climbing must have been a very different animal then. I was making the comparison to pre placed pitons as opposed to pre placed bolts?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Ok........ again, don't shoot me, it's just a question! but I would have thought a well hammered in piton would knock spots off a cam for strenght?

In reply to Monk:

Yes, there has always been a very strong purist ethic in UK trad climbing, right from the start. There was a bad patch in the very early 50s when aid climbing was in vogue (mostly because of developments in the Dolomites), but since then it's become progressively purer. Though, really, the way most punters climb now (with excessive amounts of gear and chalk) is a good deal less pure than it was about 25 years ago.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

No way. Most pegs varied from being just about acceptable to very dodgy indeed (typically very old, bent, and rusty). The only pegs we ever carried were for belaying on a few specific routes, such as the little ledge on the top of the 2nd pitch of Diagonal, which never had the belay peg left in. Now of course, very adequate nut belays are available.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Ah, I see, I'd sort of imagined people climbing with a rack of 'disposable' pegs!

In reply to Tyroneslater:

Absolutely not. Not only was it very frowned upon (I'm talking about 1968 onwards), but everyone was typically so poor that they did not have a 'rack' of pegs. Most climbing parties of two climbers would between them have about 4 or 5 pegs. But we hated having to climb with a peg hammer, which was heavy, required an extra 'holster', and got in the way. We would only take pegs and hammers on routes where we knew it was necessary for belaying, never for placing anywhere on a pitch. Occasionally we would use a peg hammer for removing pegs if they were dodgy, and did not replace them. John Syrett, one of the first great purists, who was climbing with my brother and I in 1970, removed quite a few.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Poverty poverty knock eh?
It's interesting becuase it seems trad used to be virtually unprotected by the sounds of it. Funny how opinions change and risk which seemed 'normal' back then, not just in climbing, seem almost irrisponsible by today's standards ( I see this in work too) and whilst I am sure there are less deaths per climbing hour now........ I'd be surprised if skill levels haven't decreased in some respects.

In reply to Tyroneslater:

I should add that the reason why good belay pegs never got left in was that good pegs were very valuable, and if you generously left a nice new one it would be nicked almost immediately. The ethic with in situ pegs on a pitch was that you used whatever happened to be there, and quite often they were almost worse than useless.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>There was a bad patch in the very early 50s when aid climbing was in vogue (mostly because of developments in the Dolomites), but since then it's become progressively purer

Come on Gordon, not letting you have that. We used pegs on limestone cliffs that were unexplored, and quarries like Millstone up routes that would never have got done free if we had not opened the cracks up to fingerjams. People then went on to free them as the holds improved. Great North Road would not have been done now if it was not for pegs cleaning and widening the cracks, and London wall would still be blank.

What is a shame is the free climbers getting peggers a bad name on limestone as they freed most of the routes, then buggered off and left them to decay and get overgrown as a lot are now.

I wonder how many routes Graham West and the MGC did with aid have been done in the last ten years? Even places like Water cum Jolly, Beeston Tor, Ravens Tor Dovedale seem neglected by most people now all the aid has gone.

In reply to sutty:

>Great North Road would not have been done now if it was not for pegs cleaning and widening the cracks,

I don't know about that. It can't have been any worse than, say, Blackchurch. Or Gogarth.

jcm

In reply to Tyroneslater:

Well, no, sparsely protected would be a better way of putting it. Most trad routes had plenty of spikes and flakes you could put perlon or tape slings round (though they often lifted off!) and of course the odd stonking thread runner. Plus some good basic nut runner placements that would take a large industrial nut on a sling or an original MOAC, for example. We used slings round small spikes much more than nowadays. The early wire nuts were atrocious, because the wire was so stiff that many would jump out (before quick draws and tie offs had been perfected). So really you put on whatever you could, however dodgy, and typically - I'm not exaggerating - about 50 per cent of it would fall off so that when you came to second each run would have at least one other hanging from it that had fallen off from above.

Funny how opinions change and risk which seemed 'normal' back then, not just in climbing, seem almost irrisponsible by today's standards ( I see this in work too) and whilst I am sure there are less deaths per climbing hour now........ I'd be surprised if skill levels haven't decreased in some respects.

In reply to sutty:

London Wall I agree with but not GNR. The crack was always wide enough for fingers/hands. It used to have loads of old wooden wedges in but mate of mine (Les Ward) fell off and stripped most of them - he hit the ground too!

I have a vague feeling that JB did the 2nd Ascent (free) though that might be total bollies!


Chris

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Agreed with that one, because the cracks on GNR were already there. Maybe finger crack below the top overhang was widened a bit by the pegs?

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I'm sure you're right about JB on GNR.