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Apologies for the daft question, but is leadership something you can learn or is it something that is more natural for others?
I don't think I'm a naturally strong leader, I was previously a Unit Manager for a residential centre and I've also been a Assistant Manager in a restaurant, neither job I managed to do particularly well, I struggled with line management and constantly found that people would regularly undermine me. Possibly due to my age (most of the staff were older than me) and perceived inexperience (lack of formal qualifications etc).
Both jobs are nearly 10 years in the past now, but it's taken me that amount of time to get my confidence back and I'm now acting team leader in my current workplace (Normal TL is on long term sick - so that bodes well!).
It's still a bit of a struggle but in this case it's a smaller team and I have a lot more experience than the rest of them and it's a bit more of a gentler introduction to management this time, I've got decent managers and I don't feel so much like its a case of 'sink or swim'. It still feels awkward giving instructions but I'm slowly getting used to it.
So I suppose I'm asking can it be learned, or does management require a certain personality 'type'?
I don't think I'm a naturally strong leader, I was previously a Unit Manager for a residential centre and I've also been a Assistant Manager in a restaurant, neither job I managed to do particularly well, I struggled with line management and constantly found that people would regularly undermine me. Possibly due to my age (most of the staff were older than me) and perceived inexperience (lack of formal qualifications etc).
Both jobs are nearly 10 years in the past now, but it's taken me that amount of time to get my confidence back and I'm now acting team leader in my current workplace (Normal TL is on long term sick - so that bodes well!).
It's still a bit of a struggle but in this case it's a smaller team and I have a lot more experience than the rest of them and it's a bit more of a gentler introduction to management this time, I've got decent managers and I don't feel so much like its a case of 'sink or swim'. It still feels awkward giving instructions but I'm slowly getting used to it.
So I suppose I'm asking can it be learned, or does management require a certain personality 'type'?
In reply to Toby S:
Funnily enough I start my leadership course next week. I think it's a bit of both to be honest, but a lot of it is being able to adapt to the situation you are currently in, and I don't know many people that are naturally good at that.
When in doubt, appear confident and wing it.
Funnily enough I start my leadership course next week. I think it's a bit of both to be honest, but a lot of it is being able to adapt to the situation you are currently in, and I don't know many people that are naturally good at that.
When in doubt, appear confident and wing it.
In reply to Toby S:
I think leadership is innate, but skills of management can be learnt and leadership skills can be enhanced.
I think leadership is innate, but skills of management can be learnt and leadership skills can be enhanced.
In reply to The New NickB:
Good leaders are not always obvious either, the same approach does not always work in different environments and self confidence is not the same as good leadership.
One thing you can do to improve yourself, is understand the traps you can fall into.
Good leaders are not always obvious either, the same approach does not always work in different environments and self confidence is not the same as good leadership.
One thing you can do to improve yourself, is understand the traps you can fall into.
In reply to The New NickB:
Traps? There's traps? No-one told me about traps. <<checks for snares>>
Our HR department offer various leadership courses so if this turns into a long term thing I'll be booking on to one.
Traps? There's traps? No-one told me about traps. <<checks for snares>>
Our HR department offer various leadership courses so if this turns into a long term thing I'll be booking on to one.
In reply to Toby S:
I think there's a spectrum of leadership with hopeless and born to it at either end, with most people being somewhere between the two.
I think there's a spectrum of leadership with hopeless and born to it at either end, with most people being somewhere between the two.
In reply to Toby S:
One characteristic that seems common to the good managers I've encountered is emotional intelligence, which might sound like airy-fairy bollocks but which I think is more about understanding people's motivations. But then, management and leadership aren't the same thing... someone can be a great leader and a rubbish people manager.
One characteristic that seems common to the good managers I've encountered is emotional intelligence, which might sound like airy-fairy bollocks but which I think is more about understanding people's motivations. But then, management and leadership aren't the same thing... someone can be a great leader and a rubbish people manager.
In reply to Toby S: In my view leadership can definitely be learned although I think there are also character or personality traits that make some people more suited to leadership roles & task than others. A lot of it is to do with presenting yourself confidently so that people will accept your direction (even when you feel subjectively tentative and uncertain).
In reply to Tall Clare:
You know I think I might have a book on that in the house somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it out when I get home.
You know I think I might have a book on that in the house somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it out when I get home.
In reply to Toby S: Hi Toby - I think Leadership can actually *only* be learnt - and I say this as someone who has run their own SME for the last 12 years. Those who think or believe that they are a "natural leader" tend to actually not be that dynamic and not to listen or empower their staff - good leadership is the art of maximising the potential of those around you - and you can only do this as you learn their skills, strengths & weaknesses. A good leader will learn to communicate in several different ways, finding the best approach to convey expectations and aims - the "natural leader" will (usually) expect other to understand.
As a business we have probably half a million of machinery - but our best investment has been in the staff - and a good percentage of that has been leadership training.
As a business we have probably half a million of machinery - but our best investment has been in the staff - and a good percentage of that has been leadership training.
In reply to Toby S: I tend to see Leadership and Management as seperate skills, not necessarily mutually exclusive, and when they come together the person is very talanted indeed.
Management, the ability to run a dept, business, organisation. Skills include organising reporting, managing information etc etc etc. It can be learnt more than Leadership can, but like anything there is a definate predispostition to it. May be a key here is they might be heard to say do what I say more than do as I do.
Leadership, the ability to inspire and motivate others. Not always good at reporting and managing resourses, but definatly better getting the most out of others. Experience, and confidence exudes from such people although they may not always feel it themselves. It tends to be about personality more than predisposition to a certain skill, Take sports coaches for example they get more out of someone than they could give themselves. I would think they are more EQ and probably a higher IQ although formal qualifications may be lacking as they tend to be more interested in other people than the aquisition of qualifications. Also, they may annoy as many as the motivate, but the really good ones surround themselves with those that follow them. Unlike managers they might be more likley to be heard to say "Do it as I do" and they wont be frightened of doing it as well.
J
Management, the ability to run a dept, business, organisation. Skills include organising reporting, managing information etc etc etc. It can be learnt more than Leadership can, but like anything there is a definate predispostition to it. May be a key here is they might be heard to say do what I say more than do as I do.
Leadership, the ability to inspire and motivate others. Not always good at reporting and managing resourses, but definatly better getting the most out of others. Experience, and confidence exudes from such people although they may not always feel it themselves. It tends to be about personality more than predisposition to a certain skill, Take sports coaches for example they get more out of someone than they could give themselves. I would think they are more EQ and probably a higher IQ although formal qualifications may be lacking as they tend to be more interested in other people than the aquisition of qualifications. Also, they may annoy as many as the motivate, but the really good ones surround themselves with those that follow them. Unlike managers they might be more likley to be heard to say "Do it as I do" and they wont be frightened of doing it as well.
J
In reply to Kelcat:
The ability to use these learnt skill is innate, which is what is important. We can all maximize our leadership potential, but it will be more natural to some.
The ability to use these learnt skill is innate, which is what is important. We can all maximize our leadership potential, but it will be more natural to some.
In reply to Toby S:
I know it seems like a some what lame and artificial way to learn but i'd say read as much as you can.
There's a lot of waffle around 'personal development' theories, for every concise treatise there are 1000 books/lectures on utter guff.
Hunt out recommendations. I'd say a great place to start is a short book called 'the 7 habits of highly effective people' and though it's a little dated but I still think very relevant is Dale Carnegie's 'How to make friends and influence people' (despite due to the evolution of semantics what is now a slightly sinister sounding title)
I think the single most important thing is being reflective and self analysising. Constantly look at your own performance, and break everything down and re-run things. As soon as you start coasting (even if everything is going fine) I think it's a step backwards.
I know it seems like a some what lame and artificial way to learn but i'd say read as much as you can.
There's a lot of waffle around 'personal development' theories, for every concise treatise there are 1000 books/lectures on utter guff.
Hunt out recommendations. I'd say a great place to start is a short book called 'the 7 habits of highly effective people' and though it's a little dated but I still think very relevant is Dale Carnegie's 'How to make friends and influence people' (despite due to the evolution of semantics what is now a slightly sinister sounding title)
I think the single most important thing is being reflective and self analysising. Constantly look at your own performance, and break everything down and re-run things. As soon as you start coasting (even if everything is going fine) I think it's a step backwards.
In reply to Tall Clare:
Good points, from the bad days my dad sometimes has trying to get people to work and get along with each other, working out why people do what people do is half the battle. People's personality quirks seem to figure a lot if something isn't going smoothly.
It's why i'd quite like a job to do with planting things. ()
Tim
> (In reply to Toby S)
>
> One characteristic that seems common to the good managers I've encountered is emotional intelligence, which might sound like airy-fairy bollocks but which I think is more about understanding people's motivations. But then, management and leadership aren't the same thing... someone can be a great leader and a rubbish people manager.
>
> One characteristic that seems common to the good managers I've encountered is emotional intelligence, which might sound like airy-fairy bollocks but which I think is more about understanding people's motivations. But then, management and leadership aren't the same thing... someone can be a great leader and a rubbish people manager.
Good points, from the bad days my dad sometimes has trying to get people to work and get along with each other, working out why people do what people do is half the battle. People's personality quirks seem to figure a lot if something isn't going smoothly.
It's why i'd quite like a job to do with planting things. ()
Tim
In reply to Toby S:
Going back to the idea of traps of leadership, Leadership on the Line (Heifez and Linsky) is a good read, it is Harvard University Press, so not sure how available it is in the UK, but chunks of it are probably online.
Going back to the idea of traps of leadership, Leadership on the Line (Heifez and Linsky) is a good read, it is Harvard University Press, so not sure how available it is in the UK, but chunks of it are probably online.
In reply to The New NickB:
Thanks, I'll look it up.
Plenty of food for thought so far folks, it's much appreciated. It's helping me feel a bit less worried too, thanks!
Thanks, I'll look it up.
Plenty of food for thought so far folks, it's much appreciated. It's helping me feel a bit less worried too, thanks!
In reply to Toby S:
I don't think it can be learned if you don't have it in the first place, but learning can certainly inhance it, in particular the ability to learn from mistakes and admit them.
Many excellent leaders are suprisingly lacking in self confidence and are full of self doubt, but conceal it from others. It's working through these doubts, overcoming them and being positive that makes them good.
Being assertive, overbearing and overconfident are not necessarily signs of good leadership as such people often lead their team and themselves down the swanny. A good leader needs to be a good listener and prepared to take in and act on good ideas put forward by others, even when it means admitting to themselves that they are better ideas than their own. On the other hand a good leader needs to be able to judge when it is important to act in accordance with their own instincts/experience even when this may be unpopular with the rest of the team. A good leader knows the strengths and weaknesses of their team and uses these to the advantage of the whole team.
I don't think it can be learned if you don't have it in the first place, but learning can certainly inhance it, in particular the ability to learn from mistakes and admit them.
Many excellent leaders are suprisingly lacking in self confidence and are full of self doubt, but conceal it from others. It's working through these doubts, overcoming them and being positive that makes them good.
Being assertive, overbearing and overconfident are not necessarily signs of good leadership as such people often lead their team and themselves down the swanny. A good leader needs to be a good listener and prepared to take in and act on good ideas put forward by others, even when it means admitting to themselves that they are better ideas than their own. On the other hand a good leader needs to be able to judge when it is important to act in accordance with their own instincts/experience even when this may be unpopular with the rest of the team. A good leader knows the strengths and weaknesses of their team and uses these to the advantage of the whole team.
In reply to Trangia:
I meant to add that a good leadership is knowing when, to whom and where to delegate
I meant to add that a good leadership is knowing when, to whom and where to delegate
In reply to Toby S:
I'd just like to second the comments regarding the difference between management and leadership. I think anyone can learn to be a manager to some extent, but to provide leadership involves far more than managing. Leadership can be developed to some extent, but I think it's an innate thing.
I'd just like to second the comments regarding the difference between management and leadership. I think anyone can learn to be a manager to some extent, but to provide leadership involves far more than managing. Leadership can be developed to some extent, but I think it's an innate thing.
In reply to The New NickB:
Yeah I'd go with that. I think management is more defined as well. Leadership can be in many different forms and is a much more varied approach.
> (In reply to Toby S)
>
> I think leadership is innate, but skills of management can be learnt and leadership skills can be enhanced.
>
> I think leadership is innate, but skills of management can be learnt and leadership skills can be enhanced.
Yeah I'd go with that. I think management is more defined as well. Leadership can be in many different forms and is a much more varied approach.
In reply to Toby S: I think leadership has a lot to do with confidence.
someone who knows what they are doing and even better, enjoys it, will often be able to show an air of leadership.
There are people who are just leaders (for good or ill) and there are those who rise to leadership in one or more areas but not ALL areas.
I think many of the skills can be brought out in a person if they are there to begin with.
I think a more productive way of looking at things is what you are good at and what you enjoy.
Identify your areas of weakness and address them one by one.
someone who knows what they are doing and even better, enjoys it, will often be able to show an air of leadership.
There are people who are just leaders (for good or ill) and there are those who rise to leadership in one or more areas but not ALL areas.
I think many of the skills can be brought out in a person if they are there to begin with.
I think a more productive way of looking at things is what you are good at and what you enjoy.
Identify your areas of weakness and address them one by one.
In reply to Toby S : absolutely nothing to do with leadership, but I was in Inverness last week and quite impressed by a restaurant down by the river - 'The Kitchen'. The lunch menu at £5.95 was quite delicious ! Imagine being served at your table and not having to clear things away , for the same price as one of those disgusting burger-places. I also enjoyed a most drinkable organic beer- 'Black Isle'- well two actually. They cost more than the food !
Leadership then : well, I reckon that humans can adapt to most situations, given a little time..................
Leadership then : well, I reckon that humans can adapt to most situations, given a little time..................
In reply to Toby S:
I spend quite a bit of my time running leadership courses and there is a vast array of books you could read or theories you could look up (and still probably not 'learn' any more about leadership.
One of the theories that I relate to most is that of 'Authentic Leadership' and really looking at how you can be yourself. Previously mentioned Emotional Intelligence worth a look (e.g Daniel Goleman – Leadership that gets results). Simply being aware that different people require different styles is fundamental.
I don’t think you can learn leadership as such, but you can learn a range of tools and techniques that will help you (e.g coaching skills) and really useful to get some feedback from peers (360degree).
Good leaders don’t necessary need detailed technical knowledge of the job (the higher up you get the less this is needed or possible). The fact that you are thinking about the effect of your leadership is the start of developing it.
Good luck!
I spend quite a bit of my time running leadership courses and there is a vast array of books you could read or theories you could look up (and still probably not 'learn' any more about leadership.
One of the theories that I relate to most is that of 'Authentic Leadership' and really looking at how you can be yourself. Previously mentioned Emotional Intelligence worth a look (e.g Daniel Goleman – Leadership that gets results). Simply being aware that different people require different styles is fundamental.
I don’t think you can learn leadership as such, but you can learn a range of tools and techniques that will help you (e.g coaching skills) and really useful to get some feedback from peers (360degree).
Good leaders don’t necessary need detailed technical knowledge of the job (the higher up you get the less this is needed or possible). The fact that you are thinking about the effect of your leadership is the start of developing it.
Good luck!
In reply to Toby S: Leadership can be learnt to an extent, but when the proverbial hits the fan and the adrenal cocktail kicks in then people revert to what comes most natural, and I'm affraid if you aint got it...Good leadership in potential life threatening situations is a natural quality.
In reply to Toby S:
the finest leaders delegate - so it looks like other people are leading.
the abosulte finest leaders get people doing what must be done without those being lead necessarily knowing, by being several steps ahead in the leadership game.
those with doting followers are not necessarily good leaders. most of the equation depends on the followers, not the leader. surround yourself with a certain type and they are easy for even a halfwit to lead. its a common paradigm.
also, many good leaders have very good second-in-commands. necessary to take the brunt of the decisions they dont have time to explain.
often that second-in-command is the one perceived to be the leader.
the chinse say:
the most powerful men in the country have a heirachy that goes like this -the one who used to be leader
the one who will next be leader
the leader
the finest leaders delegate - so it looks like other people are leading.
the abosulte finest leaders get people doing what must be done without those being lead necessarily knowing, by being several steps ahead in the leadership game.
those with doting followers are not necessarily good leaders. most of the equation depends on the followers, not the leader. surround yourself with a certain type and they are easy for even a halfwit to lead. its a common paradigm.
also, many good leaders have very good second-in-commands. necessary to take the brunt of the decisions they dont have time to explain.
often that second-in-command is the one perceived to be the leader.
the chinse say:
the most powerful men in the country have a heirachy that goes like this -the one who used to be leader
the one who will next be leader
the leader
In reply to Toby S:
Leadership is not 'A' skill, it's the result of several skills, some of which have been mentioned here. Everyone has an ability level in each of these, good, bad or indifferent, and these skills can be improved.
Can you run? Yes, could you improve your running ability? Probably. Could you get as good as Usain Bolt? Probably not. Same with the skills of leadership really, you could improve them all, but maybe in some areas you're never going to be brilliant.
So, take an assessment of your skills. A bit like climbing, you work on the weak areas, or you play to your strengths. If you can't hand jam, don't climb grit...you can choose the style of leadership that suits you while working on your skills.
Fundamentally to me, leadership is about taking responsibility for the performance of others. So I take that as a basis of my leadership style, but you have to decide what it means to you so that you can develop your own style.
Leadership is not 'A' skill, it's the result of several skills, some of which have been mentioned here. Everyone has an ability level in each of these, good, bad or indifferent, and these skills can be improved.
Can you run? Yes, could you improve your running ability? Probably. Could you get as good as Usain Bolt? Probably not. Same with the skills of leadership really, you could improve them all, but maybe in some areas you're never going to be brilliant.
So, take an assessment of your skills. A bit like climbing, you work on the weak areas, or you play to your strengths. If you can't hand jam, don't climb grit...you can choose the style of leadership that suits you while working on your skills.
Fundamentally to me, leadership is about taking responsibility for the performance of others. So I take that as a basis of my leadership style, but you have to decide what it means to you so that you can develop your own style.
In reply to Toby S:
To me, leadership is going somewhere, and getting people to follow you. A leader goes first.
This may be a physical thing, but is more likely to apply in terms of ethics, attitude, diligence, keenness to learn. Of course, people can lead in any direction, so you can lead people to become lazy, dishonest, violent, etc. I think of Tony Blair's leadership in the use of violence to solve problems (Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Iraq), being happily carried on by David Cameron (Libya).
Management is from the Latin, manus, meaning hand, and originally referred to controlling a horse or team of horses through the reins. So management is controlling the actions of others by wielding the reins of power.
Both can be learned.
As importantly, both can be forgotten, and often are once a person gets into a position of power and gets sloppy.
It is worth remembering that "the manager" need not be the only person in a team with leadership skills, nor with management skills. Some people become very skilled at managing their boss and leading the organisation in a way they think it should go. The best ones do it in such a way the boss never notices.
To me, leadership is going somewhere, and getting people to follow you. A leader goes first.
This may be a physical thing, but is more likely to apply in terms of ethics, attitude, diligence, keenness to learn. Of course, people can lead in any direction, so you can lead people to become lazy, dishonest, violent, etc. I think of Tony Blair's leadership in the use of violence to solve problems (Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Iraq), being happily carried on by David Cameron (Libya).
Management is from the Latin, manus, meaning hand, and originally referred to controlling a horse or team of horses through the reins. So management is controlling the actions of others by wielding the reins of power.
Both can be learned.
As importantly, both can be forgotten, and often are once a person gets into a position of power and gets sloppy.
It is worth remembering that "the manager" need not be the only person in a team with leadership skills, nor with management skills. Some people become very skilled at managing their boss and leading the organisation in a way they think it should go. The best ones do it in such a way the boss never notices.
In reply to Toby S: I think good leadership can be learnt. My take on it is that in order for people to follow you have to know where you want to take them. i.e. if you have a clear idea of what you want doing and the steps needed to get there, so long as you communicate to your 'followers' people will follow you.
That said I dont see my self as a very strong leader so what do I know. Im more of a follower
BBAAAAAAA
That said I dont see my self as a very strong leader so what do I know. Im more of a follower
BBAAAAAAA
In reply to Toby S:
Years ago I can remember everyone I knew saying that I was exactly the wrong person for management. In fact I was fu*cking brilliant at it, which is really, really rare. I wouldn't pay most 'managers' in washers.
If you really care about your objectives and you really care about your people and you spend a lot of time learning about management (theory and practice) you will become a very good manager. The mere fact that you're asking on here is a good sign.
Leadership and managment certainly overlap but leadership is not the sine qua non of management. The way to find out who is a true leader is to be in a position so horrendous that nobody wants to take responsibility. As a great climber once said about one such situation, when asked what would happen: "A leader will emerge..."
He was right. A leader did emerge - the most unlikely person. True leaders are worlds away from the bullshit of 'Apprentice' wannabees and suchlike.
A true leader gives more than anybody else. If need be, a true leader gives everything.
Mick
>
> So I suppose I'm asking can it be learned, or does management require a certain personality 'type'?
> So I suppose I'm asking can it be learned, or does management require a certain personality 'type'?
Years ago I can remember everyone I knew saying that I was exactly the wrong person for management. In fact I was fu*cking brilliant at it, which is really, really rare. I wouldn't pay most 'managers' in washers.
If you really care about your objectives and you really care about your people and you spend a lot of time learning about management (theory and practice) you will become a very good manager. The mere fact that you're asking on here is a good sign.
Leadership and managment certainly overlap but leadership is not the sine qua non of management. The way to find out who is a true leader is to be in a position so horrendous that nobody wants to take responsibility. As a great climber once said about one such situation, when asked what would happen: "A leader will emerge..."
He was right. A leader did emerge - the most unlikely person. True leaders are worlds away from the bullshit of 'Apprentice' wannabees and suchlike.
A true leader gives more than anybody else. If need be, a true leader gives everything.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
I think you and almost sane have it about right. A good leader is different to managers as the leader will stick his neck out, most managers will not.
Best thing anyone said to me years ago was, I want to be with you if the shit hits the fan. I have said the same to a few people as well.
I think you and almost sane have it about right. A good leader is different to managers as the leader will stick his neck out, most managers will not.
Best thing anyone said to me years ago was, I want to be with you if the shit hits the fan. I have said the same to a few people as well.
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