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Is it just me or are climbing shoes a rip off. I know I need them and couldn't climb as well without them but at around £100+(top end of the market) for a pair seems very steep to me. My favoured brand these days is La Sportive as I find that their rubber seems to stick the best on gritstone and they fit me snugly. However, for a pair of solutions I need to pay nearly as much as do for the Goodyears on my car and I don't get no where near as much rubber for my money.
Granted that all shoe companies need to invest in technology's and the price covers part of this investment as well as materials and nor do they sell as many tyres as Goodyear so their margins are considerably different but does the price really need to be so high.
Is there something we should do as consumers and stop buying these price inflated necessities? Or should we just keep handing over our hard earned cash in an, already, price increasing Market place?
Granted that all shoe companies need to invest in technology's and the price covers part of this investment as well as materials and nor do they sell as many tyres as Goodyear so their margins are considerably different but does the price really need to be so high.
Is there something we should do as consumers and stop buying these price inflated necessities? Or should we just keep handing over our hard earned cash in an, already, price increasing Market place?
In reply to ice.solo:
While this is true you generally don't wear out your stuff in six months
Reason is the pound isn't worth much any longer, it has dropped >30% in the last few years and along with higher inflation and now VAT I think the shoes probably haven't gone up that much from the manufacturers point of view. Try a pair of Scarpa with the edge rubber, it seems to last very well
> as an ice climber i find any argument about footwear prices quaint.
While this is true you generally don't wear out your stuff in six months
Reason is the pound isn't worth much any longer, it has dropped >30% in the last few years and along with higher inflation and now VAT I think the shoes probably haven't gone up that much from the manufacturers point of view. Try a pair of Scarpa with the edge rubber, it seems to last very well
In reply to smithers25:
Until not that long ago, I used to be able to buy a pair of 5.10 Verdes for £60. They are now £105! Result is that I now wear them until they are absolutely shot rather than renewing them regularly, and don't buy climbing boots from shops any more (going instead to eBay or UKC). Can't see that these price increases can be good for sales.
Until not that long ago, I used to be able to buy a pair of 5.10 Verdes for £60. They are now £105! Result is that I now wear them until they are absolutely shot rather than renewing them regularly, and don't buy climbing boots from shops any more (going instead to eBay or UKC). Can't see that these price increases can be good for sales.
In reply to smithers25: Take up sailing, THEN whine about kit prices.
Seriously though, sometimes you might be paying for the name. What you are more often paying for is research and developement (in technology and in design, both being important to the younger, trendier element)
You're also paying for lower production runs than normal shoes.
If you REALLY think you are being ripped off, go and look up the company accounts for your particular brand of shoe. You will almost certainly find that the company is running on profit margins of 6-15% turnover.
Seriously though, sometimes you might be paying for the name. What you are more often paying for is research and developement (in technology and in design, both being important to the younger, trendier element)
You're also paying for lower production runs than normal shoes.
If you REALLY think you are being ripped off, go and look up the company accounts for your particular brand of shoe. You will almost certainly find that the company is running on profit margins of 6-15% turnover.
In reply to smithers25: I bought my first pair of rock shoes in 1985 for £65, at the time I was a student on a grant of about £2k a year. If rock shoes had kept pace with my income I would now be paying over a thousand pounds for a pair. Whilst some manufacturers have moved production to the far east and make their shoes on a more mass production type model, the brand you mention still make their shoes by hand in a small factory in the dolomites. Many of the employees are third generation workers and a pair of shoes takes over 24 hours to complete. That level of care doesn't come cheap, I suggest you go shopping for hand made Italian fashion shoes and what change you get from £500!
Finally think about the retailer who spends often over an hour selling a single pair of rock shoes to some fussy climber who then has the cheek to ask for discount, and will probably bring them back in a couple of months because they drag their feet at the wall but claim the shoes are at fault. They'll be lucky to make £30 on a top end pair of shoes out of whihc they have to pay their staff rent.rates etc and the tax man gets 20 odd %. Still think theyre expensive buy a cheaper brand or take up kite surfing that'll keep you poor.
Finally think about the retailer who spends often over an hour selling a single pair of rock shoes to some fussy climber who then has the cheek to ask for discount, and will probably bring them back in a couple of months because they drag their feet at the wall but claim the shoes are at fault. They'll be lucky to make £30 on a top end pair of shoes out of whihc they have to pay their staff rent.rates etc and the tax man gets 20 odd %. Still think theyre expensive buy a cheaper brand or take up kite surfing that'll keep you poor.
In reply to smithers25: You could try making your own and seeing how that works out?
My first pair of shoes were a cheaper model bought in 1990 I think and were about 50 quid. Most shoes have been in the 55 to 75 pound bracket for 20 years despite inflation. So more to the point is why did they stay at the same price for so long?
My first pair of shoes were a cheaper model bought in 1990 I think and were about 50 quid. Most shoes have been in the 55 to 75 pound bracket for 20 years despite inflation. So more to the point is why did they stay at the same price for so long?
In reply to smithers25:
Do they? My 10yo Pinks were pretty damn good, come to think of it they weren't much better than the old Boreals I started out with. My current pair certainly aren't twice as good, in fact they're barely any better.
It seems to me that the shoe makers are investing heavily in a ridiculous arms race for the newest-bestest-shineyest rubber and a new model every year that we don't need but do want once we're told to by flashy expensive adverts. I despair and from now on will be repairing old shoes and buying old stock at sale prices.
Or support the newer, lesser known brands with more realistic prices.
jk
> Granted that all shoe companies need to invest in technology's and the price covers part of this investment...
Do they? My 10yo Pinks were pretty damn good, come to think of it they weren't much better than the old Boreals I started out with. My current pair certainly aren't twice as good, in fact they're barely any better.
It seems to me that the shoe makers are investing heavily in a ridiculous arms race for the newest-bestest-shineyest rubber and a new model every year that we don't need but do want once we're told to by flashy expensive adverts. I despair and from now on will be repairing old shoes and buying old stock at sale prices.
> Is there something we should do as consumers and stop buying these price inflated necessities?
Or support the newer, lesser known brands with more realistic prices.
jk
In reply to nealh:
WTF?! Were they gold plated!
> (In reply to smithers25) I bought my first pair of rock shoes in 1985 for £65,
WTF?! Were they gold plated!
In reply to ClimberEd: No They were Scarpa SuperRatz and that was the going rate at the time.
In reply to smithers25:
Funnily enough, whilst I don't object to the cost, I was rather surprised when buying a new pair the other day.
I've paid in the region of £60 plus or minus a tenner for ages, so paying £87 was a bit of a shock. Has there been a 50% price rise in the last year I somehow missed until this moment?
Funnily enough, whilst I don't object to the cost, I was rather surprised when buying a new pair the other day.
I've paid in the region of £60 plus or minus a tenner for ages, so paying £87 was a bit of a shock. Has there been a 50% price rise in the last year I somehow missed until this moment?
Decathalon do a pair for £20. The rubber is more like plastic though.
In reply to smithers25: Te price has been kept artifically low for ages. (see the comment about £60 in 1985)
If you think of the price of a pair of Running/Cross Training shoes you're probably talking £60-£80. These shoes are high-volume sellers that can make a hefty profit with a lower margin.
Top end climbing shoes are very specialst in comparison; lower volume of sales = higher margin required per pair to make profit. It's just a bit of a shame 25 years of depressed prices changed in one year!
Yes, it's expensive, but no, I don't think we're being "ripped-off".
JK=karran - I;d agree that some of the companies have gone a bit mental recenlty on the size of their new ranges - 5.10 for example!
5.10 whites are better than the old pinks (IMO), but maybe not £45 better...
If you think of the price of a pair of Running/Cross Training shoes you're probably talking £60-£80. These shoes are high-volume sellers that can make a hefty profit with a lower margin.
Top end climbing shoes are very specialst in comparison; lower volume of sales = higher margin required per pair to make profit. It's just a bit of a shame 25 years of depressed prices changed in one year!
Yes, it's expensive, but no, I don't think we're being "ripped-off".
JK=karran - I;d agree that some of the companies have gone a bit mental recenlty on the size of their new ranges - 5.10 for example!
5.10 whites are better than the old pinks (IMO), but maybe not £45 better...
In reply to John_Hat: People have been warning that it was going to happen actually for a couple of years - I read about here I think, it wasn't some secret insider info.
It might be the pound so weak against the Euro in part but I think Euro prices have gone up as well - I just paid €114 for some new Miuras and the other shop in town was asking €120. I think a couple of years back they were some way under 100.
The price of gear keep coming up here, so I actually wrote a blog post about it a couple of years ago with some scans from an old climbing mag to show how actually in real terms the price of ice screws has come down considerably: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2009/09/things-are-getting-cheaper.ht...
A mate sent me a link to this film last night: vimeo.com/25111021 and one of the things that struck me most was what amazingly good gear these guys all have compared to my climbing gear at uni 15 years ago! Even their t-shirts are climbing brands, but actually with the bargains you can find these days perhaps they're not all from rich families and/or slave away each summer for 3 months saving as much as possible.
It might be the pound so weak against the Euro in part but I think Euro prices have gone up as well - I just paid €114 for some new Miuras and the other shop in town was asking €120. I think a couple of years back they were some way under 100.
The price of gear keep coming up here, so I actually wrote a blog post about it a couple of years ago with some scans from an old climbing mag to show how actually in real terms the price of ice screws has come down considerably: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2009/09/things-are-getting-cheaper.ht...
A mate sent me a link to this film last night: vimeo.com/25111021 and one of the things that struck me most was what amazingly good gear these guys all have compared to my climbing gear at uni 15 years ago! Even their t-shirts are climbing brands, but actually with the bargains you can find these days perhaps they're not all from rich families and/or slave away each summer for 3 months saving as much as possible.
In reply to nealh:
whilst I agree with the jist of your argument, it probably best not to compare your student income with whatever your income is now.
Earnings have increased by a factor or 2.5 since 1985, the price of rock shoes certainly haven't. I bought the cheapest pair I could find in 1992 for £45.
whilst I agree with the jist of your argument, it probably best not to compare your student income with whatever your income is now.
Earnings have increased by a factor or 2.5 since 1985, the price of rock shoes certainly haven't. I bought the cheapest pair I could find in 1992 for £45.
In reply to The New NickB:
A better comparison is with the price of beer
When Fires came out they were £50, whilst the price of a pint was 70p, so on that scale boots should be around £200
A better comparison is with the price of beer
When Fires came out they were £50, whilst the price of a pint was 70p, so on that scale boots should be around £200
In reply to Chris the Tall:
If you ignore the notion of maturing markets.
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> A better comparison is with the price of beer
>
> When Fires came out they were £50, whilst the price of a pint was 70p, so on that scale boots should be around £200
> A better comparison is with the price of beer
>
> When Fires came out they were £50, whilst the price of a pint was 70p, so on that scale boots should be around £200
If you ignore the notion of maturing markets.
In reply to Gunboat_Diplomat:
All this begs more questions than it answers.
jkarran has asked most of them, but it doesn't explain the diversity of models, or why some very popular models (anasazi) cost about the same as much less popular models, especially as you get more technical, where the demand is always going to be lower but prices don't seem to reflect the lower costs.
> (In reply to smithers25)
> Seriously though, sometimes you might be paying for the name. What you are more often paying for is research and developement (in technology and in design, both being important to the younger, trendier element)
> You're also paying for lower production runs than normal shoes.
> If you REALLY think you are being ripped off, go and look up the company accounts for your particular brand of shoe. You will almost certainly find that the company is running on profit margins of 6-15% turnover.
> Seriously though, sometimes you might be paying for the name. What you are more often paying for is research and developement (in technology and in design, both being important to the younger, trendier element)
> You're also paying for lower production runs than normal shoes.
> If you REALLY think you are being ripped off, go and look up the company accounts for your particular brand of shoe. You will almost certainly find that the company is running on profit margins of 6-15% turnover.
All this begs more questions than it answers.
jkarran has asked most of them, but it doesn't explain the diversity of models, or why some very popular models (anasazi) cost about the same as much less popular models, especially as you get more technical, where the demand is always going to be lower but prices don't seem to reflect the lower costs.
In reply to ice.solo:
As a snowboarder, I was thinking the same
> as an ice climber i find any argument about footwear prices quaint.
As a snowboarder, I was thinking the same
In reply to smithers25:
Seeing as shoe prices are getting higher and higher then maybe resoling is the way forward.
I've just had a pair of Muiras resoled by Cheshire Shoe Repairs ( http://www.cheshireshoe.co.uk/ ) and they've done an excellent job. Overall with postage it cost me round £35, which isn't bad at all when it's saved me £110 on a new pair of shoes?
I'd seriously consider them if I were you!
Seeing as shoe prices are getting higher and higher then maybe resoling is the way forward.
I've just had a pair of Muiras resoled by Cheshire Shoe Repairs ( http://www.cheshireshoe.co.uk/ ) and they've done an excellent job. Overall with postage it cost me round £35, which isn't bad at all when it's saved me £110 on a new pair of shoes?
I'd seriously consider them if I were you!
In reply to mlmatt:
I've always got my boots resoled at least once, if not twice. Is this uncommon ? Or is it a relection of the fact that when I started boots were far more expensive then they are now ? Will the rise in prices make people regard them as less disposable ?
I've always got my boots resoled at least once, if not twice. Is this uncommon ? Or is it a relection of the fact that when I started boots were far more expensive then they are now ? Will the rise in prices make people regard them as less disposable ?
In reply to smithers25:
Having just returned from Brazil I think we should just be thankful that we don't have to pay the eqivalent of £200 for a pair of 5.10 Verdes it costs local climbers. There are some Brazillian shoe makes but according to the local's their very poor quality.
Phil
Having just returned from Brazil I think we should just be thankful that we don't have to pay the eqivalent of £200 for a pair of 5.10 Verdes it costs local climbers. There are some Brazillian shoe makes but according to the local's their very poor quality.
Phil
In reply to smithers25: I've been climbing for exactly 1 year and I've just worn through the toe on my third pair of shoes. I wonder if it's just my technique, but I'm also not too chuffed with having to pay so much.
In reply to JimboWizbo: Yup, that's a sure sign you need to focuss on your feet a bit more! Worth it financially, and technically!
In reply to JimboWizbo: Yeah - it gives you good incentive to start improving your footwork! When I started it was always the toes that wore through, often quite quickly. I was just dragging my feet and climbing badly. After a few years of consciously trying to improve my footwork, it's now normally the soles or even the leather (crack climbing) that wears out eventually, but I climb more and my shoes last much much longer.
In reply to The New NickB:the point I was trying to make is that relatively climbing shoes seem cheap to me, and if I worked in a little Italian climbing shoe factory for 25 years I would hope for a few pay rises over a 25 year working life too!
Having said all this in my opening debate I have just been to go outdoors and managed to get a brand new pair on Miuras for £66 because of there price match promise. I googled miura and according to them planet fear are selling them for £73 so I got a further 10% from go outdoors. Having said that, when I was leaving the store I checked the link and the actual price is £109. Oh well their loss is my gain. Of course, this all happened allegedly!
I do take on board that climbing shoes have been of a similar price for years and that the poor pound is part of the reason for the inflation but I still think £100+ is excessive.
5.10 or La Sportiva are with out doubt the stickiest rubber for grit stone and as I said I need all the help I can get as a boulderer and I suppose I should just shut up moaning if my favoured brand is the most expensive. I was recently trying to climb a slab in a pair evolv and they just wouldn't grip yet I put on my Solutions and I was as if the problem had dropped a grade.
Mr snowboarder, I too feel your pain where boots are concerned. I guess we all will just have to accept the state of the economic climate where essentials and luxuries are more expensive these days and our pounds don't go as far as they did two years ago.
I do take on board that climbing shoes have been of a similar price for years and that the poor pound is part of the reason for the inflation but I still think £100+ is excessive.
5.10 or La Sportiva are with out doubt the stickiest rubber for grit stone and as I said I need all the help I can get as a boulderer and I suppose I should just shut up moaning if my favoured brand is the most expensive. I was recently trying to climb a slab in a pair evolv and they just wouldn't grip yet I put on my Solutions and I was as if the problem had dropped a grade.
Mr snowboarder, I too feel your pain where boots are concerned. I guess we all will just have to accept the state of the economic climate where essentials and luxuries are more expensive these days and our pounds don't go as far as they did two years ago.
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