UKC

Hi there,

I am thinking about purchasing a pair of DMM flys for an impending Scottish winter trip this Jan. Being relatively new to the sport I intend to go mixed climbing at fairly low grades (WI 1-5). V12outdoor are currently selling them at £185 for the pair.
Are these good axes for the type of climbing I intend to do, also would like to know is this a good price, Or am I buying something that is going to be discontinued and therefore spares difficult to source?

Many thanks

In reply to csd23:
That's exactly what I used them for in Scotland at the start of this year. Spares will be about for a while yet.

In reply to csd23:

It seems that many people start off thier winter experiences tooled up with a DMM fly in each hand. I'll be honest with you, the leashes on these things are crap. They are pretty awkward to use but never-the-less they do actually work.

As a general purpose mountaineering axe goes the fly seems to be able to cover a bit of everything. It should see you well through you're first few winter seasons with no worries. Several people have climbed so pretty hard routes with DMM flys. You can always convert them to leashless if you feel like trying that.

Don't get too bogged down when discussing winter climbing gear. Some amazing routes have been done in the past with what would be considered now pretty rudimentary gear. As long as you've got a decent pair of 12 point crampons, attached to some B3 boots and you got 2 axes that you can swing into the ice then you should be alright. It's about the experience, not the gear you carry.

Have fun this winter!

In reply to csd23:

Don't buy them. For £200 you could get a pair of tools that would benefit you far into your climbing future, where as, after a season with a pair of flys you'll be regretting you didn't get a better pair of tools.

I'm speaking from experience - I had a pair of DMM venoms which I owned for a year before flogging them to buy a pair of Quarks ( a much more beginner and user friendly tool ). Don't waste your money, buy the right kit first time.

In reply to Merlin:

Your reply doesn't make sense! You're saying don't buy them as you can get a better pair for use beyond being a beginner, but then you say that you bought the Venoms, which are exactly that! But you didn't like them!!!!

In reply to Merlin:
at the end of the day if you buy flys second hand you won't loose any/much money. If you leave it a year or two before upgrading everyone will then be flogging there quarks / vipers for reactors / nomics!

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I agree. Buy a pair of used Flys for a hundred quid, use them for a winter or two, then if you feel the need to 'upgrade', flog them for near what you paid and go from there.


Then again......




If you have 300 quid spare buy some Quarks

Lots of advice, Cheers!

Quarks would be great but £300 is beyond my budget at the moment. There is a guy on here selling DMM Rebels for £200 - though would need to aquire some leashes.

In reply to csd23: I used a mates Fly's last year on a couple of routes and reckon they are fine. I'm probably considered a bit old school these days as have used the same pair of Mountain Tech Vertige axes for best part of 25 years, I've tried various alternatives but still reckon they re the best. As others have said, get something second hand and upgrade if you want to when you are ready. I look at all the new looking axes with fear, I'd be likely to injure myself with them they look so sharp with spikes everywhere on them....not for me!

In reply to ljb_home: Ok perhaps clarity needed; DMM tools = crap. Modern tools = user friend, good for beginners and pros alike.

Simple enough?

In reply to csd23:

Flys are the most rubbish tools i have ever used. Far better to get a second hand pair of Quarks, Nomics,Vipers... I have climbed on a borrowed pair of Quarks that had been battered to bits and they were still better than the Flys.

No doubt some people love Flys tho...

In reply to csd23:

I think you're missing the point there a bit, rebels are really leasheless tools. You may want some lanyards though.

In reply to csd23: A few polarised opinions knocking around here!!!

Flys are commonly available 2nd hand as they are a good quality tool (according to many people more expert than I am) which people move on from when they ascend to become ice gods. Spares are easily available and DMM are committed to supplying them well beyond the end of production for any of their axes.

£185 is a good price but you'll be able to get 2nd hand around £100

In reply to Nigel Modern:
exactly a great second hand bargain tool for learning the ropes before possibly upgrading to something more expsensive once you know what you like / want.

I do honestly think trends are changing towards axes with proper handles like the nomics and in a few years times everyone will be flogging there vipers / quarks off cheap!

To the OP:
I wouldn't buy flys new though, if you are going to fork out nie on 200 quid go straight for any of the leashless tools on the second hand market.

In reply to csd23: what about these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Grivel-Tech-Wing-Axes-/330644467705?pt=UK_Sportin...

In reply to csd23: I'm happy with my DMM flys which I've used for low grade stuff in Scotland and Wales.

But then again the only other tools I've used were some knackered old things borrowed off a mate and they were rubbish.

In reply to csd23:

Personally I'd skip flys and get something you can use leashless (maybe with a lanyard) I got a pair of Nomics second hand for £200, started climbing leashless and can't see why you would want to climb any other way.

In reply to csd23: The other crap thing about Flys for beginners is the stupid hump on the top of the pick that makes them useless for holding like a walking stick. Sure, heroes and pioneers climbed very hard stuff with pick axes and steak knives, but that doesn't make it fun. If you're thinking about WI5 (maybe you meant V?) you'll definitely want something better.

Secondhand is the way to go if you're on a budget, there's not much that can go seriously wrong with most axes other than paint chipping off.

Look out for Black Diamond Reactor (seen for £150 a pair off season), Grivel Matrix techs (about the same) or even Grivel X Monsters - there's a bloke selling these for £115 on here I think.

From the number of "Wanted: beginner's ice axes" posts over the last few weeks, you might have guessed that any time after April is the best time to pick up a secondhand bargain

In reply to iksander:

'Being relatively new to the sport I intend to go mixed climbing at fairly low grades'. In Scotland.

Grivel X Monsters. Yeah, right!

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Quarks and Vipers have 'proper' handles. I own Vipers and Reactors (and actually Quarks as well) and there is really very little difference in how they feel. There is nothing wrong with the Reactor/Nomic extra kink, but it doesn't really alter the feel of the tool. Plenty of pictures of Albert Leichtfried climbing WI7 with Vipers for example.

In reply to TobyA:
Toby you know exactly what I meant. At the end of the day on the continent many of the technical winter climbers have already moved over to the more modern design of axes like the nomics / reactors and if anything things are just getting even more radical for the top end climbers. Here in the UK we tend to lag behind, partially as our winter climbing tends to involve more mountaineering style climbing between the harder pitches. However the past trend has been that we do eventually move over to the modern axe designs and you can see this already the last season or two.

Lots more people buying nomics and similar axes than 2 years ago, also flys are now regarded as a poor axe by many, when a few years ago they were regarded by many as *the* low to mid grade axe for scotland!

In reply to TobyA: http://www.urbanrock.com/technical-ice-tools-pair-deals if you decide to buy new i'd get the reactors BUT i started my winter climbing with the fly's and they certainly didn't hold me back, yes there are more technical tools about but these will get you up most modern routes upto 6 at least.
My mate has a pair he has put a grivel trigger on the bottom of and they work fine and knowing what i know now i would definately start off leeshless (WITH A SPRING LEESH).

In reply to jas wood: http://www.v12outdoor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=272_230_32&pro... even better deal.

In reply to CurlyStevo: Yes, but my point is that you don't have to have a more pronounced handle for the tool to work better - its more a fashion than a design necessity. The curve of the shaft and angle of the pick is more important for the angle that you climb. Reactors won't climb steep mixed better than Cobras just because they have the 'new'* handle pattern.

*Not really that new as Quark ergos came out very soon after the original quarks.

In reply to TobyA:
Surely none of the changes in axes in the last decade or so are a design necessity unless you are climbing well in to the upper grades and even then it's far from proven the current top end climbs couldn't be climbed with the old axes.

However is it easier to climb properly steep ice/mixed leashless with nomics than vipers I think *most* climbers would say yes. At the grades we climb I'd imagine our upper end is roughly where it may start to make a difference - unless you are really pulling hard on your axes I can't see it would have much advantage.

In reply to Andy Say:

Are you thinking of Grivel (no X) Monsters? I thought Xs were pretty popular in Scotland? They're quite different

In reply to csd23:

Hello there,

I would ignore the advice of Merlin who hasn't actually owned DMM Flys, but DMM Venoms. (DMM Flys are Needle Sports best selling ice tool and DMM Venoms are non longer made... go figure )

Whilst they aren't cutting edge, Flys are a great all round tool and will out climb any mortal climber. There are pictures of Tim Emment useing them in an early ice climbing world cup and Jules Cartwright climbing the Knowledge on Mount Huner with a pair.

If I were you I'd ignore anyone who says tool x will prevent you from climbing grade y. A bad work man blames his tools.

The only tool that I'd avoid Stubia Hornets, which although cheap as chips are awful. Even so, a friend of mine has climbed Scottish V with them.

HTH

In reply to csd23: I have a set of superflys (exactly the same but with a curved finger rest bit at the bottom) and I love them, have seen me brilliantly through my beginner climbs!

In reply to csd23: back on topic. Iv used my flys for two winter and an alpine session and i already want new axes. The leashes are soooo annoying. If you really want to get into winter climbing dont bother with flys and get a leashless tool, Quarks or vipers are good

In reply to daniel howard:
A leashless tool being... a tool with the Leashes taken off ?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: I agree, I've got up many IV and IV/V grade climbs with flys and they are fine.

In reply to abr1966:
I second the vote for Vertiges - great all round axe...

Great for all round the hill, and happily used by me up to grade V

It just so happens I have a pair for sale, with new banana picks, spare adze & hammer and some alpine picks too

Anyone interested then email me

In reply to seanymck:
not really you really need a grip rest fitted also. A curved shaft helps also.

In reply to csd23:

Also started with Flys and they're ideal to get going. Have since got Quarks for steep water ice routes but still use the Flys for mixed.

Didn't like the leashes either but they are very easily adapted to become clip on/off leashes rather than the way they come.

The Fly's will cope fine with the grades you are looking at, and are also a better all round mountaineering axe than the ones with the shaped handle.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
says the man whos bought more pairs of axes than hot dinners

In reply to seanymck:

More often tools which never needed leashes in the first place, because they have an ergonomic design with angled lower handle and a "pinky rest" to support the hand from slipping off the tool.

In reply to csd23: Sorry, being deliberately obtuse on the leashless comment
Perhaps someone should contribute some experience as to which Leashless(moulded grips etc) tools are actually Ok as general mountaineering/ lower grade mixed/snow tools (like superflys perhaps ?) and which are pretty useless...

In reply to seanymck:

I use nomics and they are fine for snow plodding, but to think they are any better than a mid 90's design on easy snow is silly, they work the same basically. They plunge well enough, I've belayed off them, I've whacked in dozens of pitons with them, I've chopped ice ledges with them. Now those are all the things you commonly hear that you can't use a wiggly axe for. If you're only interested in snow plodding and easy climbing they may not be the go to axe but if you are worried it will cause a problem on those less than vertical bits I can assure you it won't.

If your heart is set on a pair of flies get a second hand pair and sell them on at no loss basically. I personally find them truly awful and can't understand why anyone would want a pair but that is just me. I would have bought a second hand pair of a pair of tools like quarks, vipers or matrix techs if a new pair is too expensive. The matrix lights are pretty good aswell though I'd prefer something more bent but if you find them at similar price used to flies it would be a no brainer for me. Just because you can climb VIII with flies doesn't mean that there aren't better and more pleasant things out there for a little extra money. If we're all thinking that the pioneers managed without offset handless and so should we etc why don't we go back to climbing with a single axe and a dagger?

In reply to Merlin:

(In reply to ljb_home) Ok perhaps clarity needed; DMM tools = crap. Modern tools = user friend, good for beginners and pros alike.

I still use a pair of Predators, keep going back to them and you feel like you've had a workout at the end of the day (and thats just when they are fastened to your sac.)

Cheers Adam

Wow! loads of advice and some good insights into the various pros and cons that different axes have so thanks!. It seems like Quarks, Vipers, Matrix Techs are the most versatile.

In light of all this, I wonder if anyone might have some reasonable axes they are willing to part with in return for currency . Quarks, Vipers, Grivel Matrix Techs for under £200, or indeed a pair of fly's for £100 or under?

Cheers!