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Anyone used one? How do they compare to down jackets for warmth & pack down size? Mr internet seems awfully shy of reviews!
In reply to Shaun L:
In my simple opinion:
Super simple as water has limited affect and it dries clothing underneath.
But, not as warm as a sythetic jacket of similar wieght and is very bulky.
Conclusion:
Good for wet kayak / canoe / very raining days or casaulty care as not affected by water.
Bulky and heavy for warmth. Works best over over non-membrane clothing, ie paramo, pile and pertex
In my simple opinion:
Super simple as water has limited affect and it dries clothing underneath.
But, not as warm as a sythetic jacket of similar wieght and is very bulky.
Conclusion:
Good for wet kayak / canoe / very raining days or casaulty care as not affected by water.
Bulky and heavy for warmth. Works best over over non-membrane clothing, ie paramo, pile and pertex
In reply to Shaun L:
In fact I have just dug out my Buffalo Mountain Jacket, 44 cobalt blue, with navy blue hood and a Big Face Shirt in 40, a pertex patch on the Big Face and a few tears, but given the nature of pile and pertex this does not affect performance. The belay jacket is 42 (?) but is in my locker at work (has been there for at least a year! The belay jacket needs new velcro.
£50 for the Mountain Jacket and you can the Big face shirt and belay jacket for free, then you can write a review!!! £6 P & P or collect from near jnct 16 of the M6 in South Cheshire
Would all be washed prior to dispatch in pure soap.
In fact I have just dug out my Buffalo Mountain Jacket, 44 cobalt blue, with navy blue hood and a Big Face Shirt in 40, a pertex patch on the Big Face and a few tears, but given the nature of pile and pertex this does not affect performance. The belay jacket is 42 (?) but is in my locker at work (has been there for at least a year! The belay jacket needs new velcro.
£50 for the Mountain Jacket and you can the Big face shirt and belay jacket for free, then you can write a review!!! £6 P & P or collect from near jnct 16 of the M6 in South Cheshire
Would all be washed prior to dispatch in pure soap.
In reply to Shaun L:
Bulky and heavy compared with primaloft I don't personally like pile and pertex much. My primaloft belay jacket however I love.
Bulky and heavy compared with primaloft I don't personally like pile and pertex much. My primaloft belay jacket however I love.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Just checked, there is actually only 30 grammes difference between the Buff Belay Jacket and the RAB photon hoody which is probably about comparable in warmth. It's so simple, it's not particularly bulky or heavy, but I think that's also its downside.
OP: I used the Buffalo belay jacket for years and it did me really well along with the big face and salopettes for all my Scottish climbing, but it is a very simple design (be careful things don't fall out of the pockets for example!) and you need to buy a hood separately if you want one. Back in the 90s when I got mine, there was very little choice in alternatives - now I would be tempted to look at a hooded mid thickness synthetic jacket like the Photon. I have one of those as well: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=2685 and would say its the better jacket for about the same weight and size in your pack.
> Bulky and heavy compared with primaloft
Just checked, there is actually only 30 grammes difference between the Buff Belay Jacket and the RAB photon hoody which is probably about comparable in warmth. It's so simple, it's not particularly bulky or heavy, but I think that's also its downside.
OP: I used the Buffalo belay jacket for years and it did me really well along with the big face and salopettes for all my Scottish climbing, but it is a very simple design (be careful things don't fall out of the pockets for example!) and you need to buy a hood separately if you want one. Back in the 90s when I got mine, there was very little choice in alternatives - now I would be tempted to look at a hooded mid thickness synthetic jacket like the Photon. I have one of those as well: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=2685 and would say its the better jacket for about the same weight and size in your pack.
In reply to Shaun L: Not that I've been out much lately, but I have done all of my winter climbing in pile/pertex jackets, initially Buffalo, then Montane, and then Mardale. The Mardale was by far the best but unfortunately I don't think they trade anymore. Shame really, but to be frank pile/pertex was just not trendy and even in the world of winter climbing, colours and logos are important. On that note, do Buffalo still charge an arm and a leg if you want their stuff in a colour that is non-standard for a given item, despite the fact that they sell other items in different colours and so must have different colours of pertex in stock. Seems bizarre to me. I would return to buying Buffalo but I don't want to wear black jackets anymore, I'd rather be a bit more visible for safety's sake, but like I said, I think that they bump up the price for different colours despite selling other stuff in a variety of colours. Don't they want customers ? Anyway, rant over.
One of the real plus points of pertex/pile jackets for mixed winter routes is that they provide a genuine, solid, less compressible layer between you and the frozen rock than primaloft etc. outer layers when you inevitably find yourself pressed against the cold granite. Also, if you rip the jacket on-route, the result is less catastrophic for a pertex/pile jacket than a primaloft type jacket.
Or maybe I'm just getting old and am nostalgic for pertex/pile.
One of the real plus points of pertex/pile jackets for mixed winter routes is that they provide a genuine, solid, less compressible layer between you and the frozen rock than primaloft etc. outer layers when you inevitably find yourself pressed against the cold granite. Also, if you rip the jacket on-route, the result is less catastrophic for a pertex/pile jacket than a primaloft type jacket.
Or maybe I'm just getting old and am nostalgic for pertex/pile.
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In reply to TobyA: Toby the belay jacket I use is warmer than my pile and Pertex smock yet packs down to about 2/3 the size of a Rugby ball and weighs 450 grams!!! Your not comparing like with like IMO.
In reply to TobyA: Montane extreme smock weighs 860 grams and takes up about 1/3 of a 50 litre pack!
In reply to Shaun L:
I've not read the thread yet but the belay jacket is simplest, most bombproof and most reliable emergency jacket I have. It's actually lighter than a a lot of the other belay jackets at just over 600 grams but doesn't pack down any where near as small. You can wear it next to your skin or use it as an additional warm layer.
It may not compact small but that is actually a bonus as you can pack and pad your sack out without worrying about it being damaged by sharp crampons and ice screws.
The only problem with it is that it is so reliable and bomb proof that there's no excuse to go out and buy a new one!!!! BTW my fiend is still using pile jacket that I had as a student and though it'd not pretty, it still performs almost forty years later!!!!
I've not read the thread yet but the belay jacket is simplest, most bombproof and most reliable emergency jacket I have. It's actually lighter than a a lot of the other belay jackets at just over 600 grams but doesn't pack down any where near as small. You can wear it next to your skin or use it as an additional warm layer.
It may not compact small but that is actually a bonus as you can pack and pad your sack out without worrying about it being damaged by sharp crampons and ice screws.
The only problem with it is that it is so reliable and bomb proof that there's no excuse to go out and buy a new one!!!! BTW my fiend is still using pile jacket that I had as a student and though it'd not pretty, it still performs almost forty years later!!!!
In reply to Ron Walker: Aye the buffalo Offering I've not used. It weighs 670 grams still heavier than my pimaloft jacket and I suspect not as warm. I found the montane extreme smock lost a lot of warmth over time as the pile compressed and balled up and as you say they are bulky. Down and primaloft both loft a lot more than pile especially old balled up pile which is why IMO they are so much warmer for their compressed size and weight.Technology moves on and normally for a reason.
Anyway I always thought buffalo said their kit needed to be worn next to the skin?
Anyway I always thought buffalo said their kit needed to be worn next to the skin?
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I have several primaloft jackets bought or given and they do pack down very small. However the primaloft insulation has definitely reduced over the past couple of years. I doubt the primaloft will be as good long term over another 40 years!
Apart from wool which gets heavy when wet pile in IMHO is the best and most reliable synthetic insulation.
Without doubt down is king for warmth and compacting as long as it doesn't get wet - a rarity and a big no no in Scotland!!! So for me the Buffalo jacket works well on my Scottish winter courses but in dry conditions in the Alps or Himalayas I'd choose down. Primaloft is good but sort of fits in halfway!!!
Cheers Ron
I have several primaloft jackets bought or given and they do pack down very small. However the primaloft insulation has definitely reduced over the past couple of years. I doubt the primaloft will be as good long term over another 40 years!
Apart from wool which gets heavy when wet pile in IMHO is the best and most reliable synthetic insulation.
Without doubt down is king for warmth and compacting as long as it doesn't get wet - a rarity and a big no no in Scotland!!! So for me the Buffalo jacket works well on my Scottish winter courses but in dry conditions in the Alps or Himalayas I'd choose down. Primaloft is good but sort of fits in halfway!!!
Cheers Ron
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Nobody apart from me (normally) uses it next to their skin where it does work far better as a single garment. It's hard to explain but you do get colder the more damp layers you wear. Everyone insists in underwear but if you strip off in the middle of a blizzard you will actually feel warmer exposed to the elements than you do with your damp so called thermal layers on! It actually works!!!!
> (In reply to Ron Walker)
> Anyway I always thought buffalo said their kit needed to be worn next to the skin?
> Anyway I always thought buffalo said their kit needed to be worn next to the skin?
Nobody apart from me (normally) uses it next to their skin where it does work far better as a single garment. It's hard to explain but you do get colder the more damp layers you wear. Everyone insists in underwear but if you strip off in the middle of a blizzard you will actually feel warmer exposed to the elements than you do with your damp so called thermal layers on! It actually works!!!!
In reply to Ron Walker: My montane went from an almost fur like consistency to the typical look used pile jackets have after some use in one year all balled up and flater. although this made it less warm as you'd expect it didn't effect weight or compressibility, I've only had my primaloft belay jacket two seasons but so far as new pretty much in terms of warmth and lofting but based on my experience with other lofting synthetics in sleeping bags I'm quite prepared to believe this won't last as well as down (although a top quality down bag I have got noticeably colder in it's first few years of life). I thought one of primalofts strongest points was ability to deal with being wet.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Ever climbed in one though?
They are the dogs bollocks!
Very warm, even when staying still for decent length of time, are not affected by water (they are as warm wet as dry), and are very rugged.
You can't say the same about most belay jackets.
PS, i do have a synthetic belay jacket, but it's rolled up in a compression sack at the bottom of my bag for when it REALLY goes wrong...
> (In reply to TobyA) Montane extreme smock weighs 860 grams and takes up about 1/3 of a 50 litre pack!
Ever climbed in one though?
They are the dogs bollocks!
Very warm, even when staying still for decent length of time, are not affected by water (they are as warm wet as dry), and are very rugged.
You can't say the same about most belay jackets.
PS, i do have a synthetic belay jacket, but it's rolled up in a compression sack at the bottom of my bag for when it REALLY goes wrong...
In reply to CurlyStevo:
No, Stevo, you are not. You accuse me of not comparing like with like but then you say you've never used the Buff belay jacket so what exactly are you comparing? I guess you didn't google it either. So let me for you:
http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/Belay_Jacket.htm 627 grammes.
A bit heavier than the Photon:
http://rab.uk.com/products/mens-clothing/primaloft_1/photon-jacket.html at 590 gr.
I picked those two because I've used the Photon for a couple of years, a fair amount now, and I've had a Buff Belay jacket since I think 1994. They are not dissimilar in terms of size, weight and warmth. The belay jacket is not like a Montane Extreme smock - I used to have one of those as well, so you can take my word on that!
What kind of primaloft jacket do you have BTW? If its a lot lighter than the photon I guess it must be one of the thinner ones?
> Your not comparing like with like IMO.
No, Stevo, you are not. You accuse me of not comparing like with like but then you say you've never used the Buff belay jacket so what exactly are you comparing? I guess you didn't google it either. So let me for you:
http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/Belay_Jacket.htm 627 grammes.
A bit heavier than the Photon:
http://rab.uk.com/products/mens-clothing/primaloft_1/photon-jacket.html at 590 gr.
I picked those two because I've used the Photon for a couple of years, a fair amount now, and I've had a Buff Belay jacket since I think 1994. They are not dissimilar in terms of size, weight and warmth. The belay jacket is not like a Montane Extreme smock - I used to have one of those as well, so you can take my word on that!
What kind of primaloft jacket do you have BTW? If its a lot lighter than the photon I guess it must be one of the thinner ones?
In reply to TobyA: Calm down, looks like you misread my original post I referered to pile and pertex. Anyway is montane really that different to buffalo it's basically the same system.
In reply to TobyA:
This is all very interesting...
...and remember folks you can buy the whole system and come up with your own view!
Only £50 for the Mountain Jacket in 44, Hood, Big Face Shirt and Belay Jacket.
Form an orderly que.....
This is all very interesting...
...and remember folks you can buy the whole system and come up with your own view!
Only £50 for the Mountain Jacket in 44, Hood, Big Face Shirt and Belay Jacket.
Form an orderly que.....
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In reply to rusty_nails: Yeah I used montane extreme smock exclusively for my first year winter climbing hated the thing kept getting too hot the too cold.
In reply to Simon Wells:
The whole system needs salopettes and the fur lined jock strap thingy they used to make as well!
I got given the latter in the shop I was working in back in the day, but I don't think I ever even tried it on- it looked so weird and, faintly... ummm... illegal.
> ...and remember folks you can buy the whole system and come up with your own view!
The whole system needs salopettes and the fur lined jock strap thingy they used to make as well!
I got given the latter in the shop I was working in back in the day, but I don't think I ever even tried it on- it looked so weird and, faintly... ummm... illegal.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
The post in which you didn't answer the OPs question?
The Belay Jacket is a very plain design so its less bulky than a Big Face shirt, which in turn is less bulky than a Montane extreme because Montane have always put on those extra features - reinforced arms, higher collars, more complex pockets etc.
> (In reply to TobyA) Calm down, looks like you misread my original post
The post in which you didn't answer the OPs question?
> I referered to pile and pertex. Anyway is montane really that different to buffalo it's basically the same system.
The Belay Jacket is a very plain design so its less bulky than a Big Face shirt, which in turn is less bulky than a Montane extreme because Montane have always put on those extra features - reinforced arms, higher collars, more complex pockets etc.
In reply to Shaun L: Thanks for all the replies, some good advise there. I think it might be the jacket for me!
In reply to Simon Wells: Hello mate, that's quite an offer! Unfortunately I'm more like a 44 in the shirt, so 46 in the jacket, plus I want a black one. I'm sure someone will snap it up though!
In reply to Shaun L:
No worries, remember it works best next to the skin, never use normal washing powder as the wetting agents stop it wicking, never 'proof' it as the wicking stops working. Apart from that it'll last years, it works in most winter conditions, but keep a pataguccie fleece / down jacket in the car for the pub!
No worries, remember it works best next to the skin, never use normal washing powder as the wetting agents stop it wicking, never 'proof' it as the wicking stops working. Apart from that it'll last years, it works in most winter conditions, but keep a pataguccie fleece / down jacket in the car for the pub!
In reply to TobyA:
Still available...
http://needlesports.com/Catalogue/Technical-Clothing/Shell/Buffalo/Supporte...
apparently they're good for winter fell running...
> The whole system needs salopettes and the fur lined jock strap thingy they used to make as well!
>
>
Still available...
http://needlesports.com/Catalogue/Technical-Clothing/Shell/Buffalo/Supporte...
apparently they're good for winter fell running...
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Even I never brought that! Can you imagine sharing a bothie and some one strips down to that!!!!!
Even I never brought that! Can you imagine sharing a bothie and some one strips down to that!!!!!
In reply to Shaun L: I think most of the posts have missed the point. The downside of a Buffalo belay jacket is that by the time you get the jacket on and zipped up in rough weather, the pile is clarted in snow, whereas this does not happen with Primaloft type jackets. I use my Buff for cold rock climbing, Das rocks in winter.
In reply to baldie:
How long exactly does it take you to put in on then!?! :-/
Can't say I ever found that to be a problem.
> by the time you get the jacket on and zipped up in rough weather, the pile is clarted in snow,
How long exactly does it take you to put in on then!?! :-/
Can't say I ever found that to be a problem.
In reply to TobyA: As quick as possible,but if the weather is rough,thats what happens. Take my word for it,or dont.
In reply to Shaun L:
I wear mine all the time. It doesn't compress loads like down, but I don't notice it as a large weight stuffed in my pack. The pertex isn't especially snaggy - won't catch immediately on sharp things.
Other stuff,
Rain: I find it can cope with light rain ok. The pertex gets wet but it doesn't soak through. In heavier rain it will eventually soak through, but this doesn't really matter apart from feeling a bit wet. When it stops raining it dries out very quickly. If it looks really actually quite awful and I'm going to be standing around for a long time I put a lightweight shell over the top. This can make it almost unbearably warm with any degree of activity.
If it's cold and wet, you might get wet but you won't get cold unless you stop moving entirely. If it's pouring with rain and I'm walking to the shops, I'll put on a shell. If it's cold and dry, I've been perfectly happy in my buffalo stuff - can't see why I'd use anything else. I climb in my big face shirt from ~Nov-March.
If you get a hood, get the expedition hood that needlesports sell. The other hoods are warm, but aren't suitable for a helmet / goggles.
I wear mine all the time. It doesn't compress loads like down, but I don't notice it as a large weight stuffed in my pack. The pertex isn't especially snaggy - won't catch immediately on sharp things.
Other stuff,
Rain: I find it can cope with light rain ok. The pertex gets wet but it doesn't soak through. In heavier rain it will eventually soak through, but this doesn't really matter apart from feeling a bit wet. When it stops raining it dries out very quickly. If it looks really actually quite awful and I'm going to be standing around for a long time I put a lightweight shell over the top. This can make it almost unbearably warm with any degree of activity.
If it's cold and wet, you might get wet but you won't get cold unless you stop moving entirely. If it's pouring with rain and I'm walking to the shops, I'll put on a shell. If it's cold and dry, I've been perfectly happy in my buffalo stuff - can't see why I'd use anything else. I climb in my big face shirt from ~Nov-March.
If you get a hood, get the expedition hood that needlesports sell. The other hoods are warm, but aren't suitable for a helmet / goggles.
In reply to baldie:
I've found that snow does readily stick to the pile, but if I'm quick and careful getting it out of my pack this doesn't happen. If I do put it on caked in snow it isn't the end of the world but I do try and avoid it.
> The downside of a Buffalo belay jacket is that by the time you get the jacket on and zipped up in rough weather, the pile is clarted in snow, whereas this does not happen with Primaloft type jackets.
I've found that snow does readily stick to the pile, but if I'm quick and careful getting it out of my pack this doesn't happen. If I do put it on caked in snow it isn't the end of the world but I do try and avoid it.
In reply to Simon Wells:
Detergents containing 'wetting agents' will actually improve the wicking of the pile, by reducing the surface tension, and encouraging water to be drawn in to the pile. The opposite effect is used in the Paramo 'pump liner', which uses a proofed micropile (pile facing outwards), and uses the effect of capillary depression to encourage water out of the pile.
Your comment about not proofing the pile is correct: you'd make a thick Paramo-like pile, encouraging water to come out of the pile, rather than be drawn into the pile, away from the body.
You can use a spray-on treatment to proof the Pertex shell without proofing the pile (provided you don't go mad and saturate the garment). This improves the water resistance of the system.
> never use normal washing powder as the wetting agents stop it wicking, never 'proof' it as the wicking stops working.
Detergents containing 'wetting agents' will actually improve the wicking of the pile, by reducing the surface tension, and encouraging water to be drawn in to the pile. The opposite effect is used in the Paramo 'pump liner', which uses a proofed micropile (pile facing outwards), and uses the effect of capillary depression to encourage water out of the pile.
Your comment about not proofing the pile is correct: you'd make a thick Paramo-like pile, encouraging water to come out of the pile, rather than be drawn into the pile, away from the body.
You can use a spray-on treatment to proof the Pertex shell without proofing the pile (provided you don't go mad and saturate the garment). This improves the water resistance of the system.
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In reply to captain paranoia:
Sorry Capten but I think the people who make the stuff may hold a different view on wetting agents! Hence their very clear advice on not using them.
My experience in the field and see clients clothing washed in 'normal' washing sutff would back up the advice on ony using pure soap.
"You can use a spray-on treatment to proof the Pertex shell", yes you can, Buffalo suggest (or used to) this was the only way if you want to increase the DWR. But it does rather go against the design brief of pertex. You undoubtly know it is decended from the fabric used in type writer ribbons! So it is very good at moving moisture to keep the wearer dry, and so warm. DWR proofing will change that.
I tried a wide variety of proofing on pertex. pile and pertex in the early 90's in a variety of settings and found the unproofed, washed in pure soap was the most affective in most conditions.
Sorry Capten but I think the people who make the stuff may hold a different view on wetting agents! Hence their very clear advice on not using them.
My experience in the field and see clients clothing washed in 'normal' washing sutff would back up the advice on ony using pure soap.
"You can use a spray-on treatment to proof the Pertex shell", yes you can, Buffalo suggest (or used to) this was the only way if you want to increase the DWR. But it does rather go against the design brief of pertex. You undoubtly know it is decended from the fabric used in type writer ribbons! So it is very good at moving moisture to keep the wearer dry, and so warm. DWR proofing will change that.
I tried a wide variety of proofing on pertex. pile and pertex in the early 90's in a variety of settings and found the unproofed, washed in pure soap was the most affective in most conditions.
1
In reply to Shaun L: due to being the worlds sweatiest man I keep getting recommended one of these, I'm thinking for the walk up to the Ben, Striding Edge in winter that sort of thing, what do people think in those scenarios? Am thinking of montane extreme
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Hi Stevo,
The concept is the same, but the execution is different. My flatmate had Montane Extreme smock, and compared to my Buffalo the pile is very much courser and heavier. The montane seemed to be warmer, but thats not neccesary an advantage here I suppose. Having briefly tried his top, I did find it sweatier. I think the buffalo tops are better ballanced in this respect.
Now if buffalo would only sort out the god awful hoods........
To the OP; I find the buffalo Belay Jacket very warm. Wore it to keep myself warm this weekend when we stopped for lunch in an absolutely bitter wind and felt nice and toasty.
Cheers!
Stuart
Hi Stevo,
The concept is the same, but the execution is different. My flatmate had Montane Extreme smock, and compared to my Buffalo the pile is very much courser and heavier. The montane seemed to be warmer, but thats not neccesary an advantage here I suppose. Having briefly tried his top, I did find it sweatier. I think the buffalo tops are better ballanced in this respect.
Now if buffalo would only sort out the god awful hoods........
To the OP; I find the buffalo Belay Jacket very warm. Wore it to keep myself warm this weekend when we stopped for lunch in an absolutely bitter wind and felt nice and toasty.
Cheers!
Stuart
In reply to Simon Wells:
That may be so, but then Gore advise using detergents to wash their products...
And, looking at Buffalo's washing instructions, I see no mention of not using detergents, other than issues with proofing (which I take to be the shell fabric, not the pile):
<quote>
However, it is important to follow the washing instructions:
• Do not dry clean.
• Maximum washing temperature is 40°c.
• Idealy wash in Nikwax Tech Wash. Follow washing instructions
• Use only a small amount of detergent and no conditioner, too much detergent can leave a residue, likewise conditioner. Rinse well.
• Do not use 'Biological' detergents, as they can shorten the lifespan of the proofing and affect colour. If worried that too much detergent or 'Biological' has been used rinse thoroughly in clear water.
• Always close touch and close fasteners.
• All Texturised Pertex products (Travelite trousers etc) should be turned inside out before washing to reduce pilling.
• Sleeping bags should be washed in an industrial machine such as in a laundrette.
</quote>
My italics.
http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/service_main.htm
Yes, I know about the origins of Pertex. However, I'm not a typewriter, and I don't need my ink to wick and re-distribute throughout my clothing... And Pertex have spent a lot of money developing their fabrics, and DWR treatments for them (e.g. Shield). As with all things, we're looking for a compromise; I'd rather have a shell fabric with a DWR to prevent water ingress, whilst still allowing good breathability. If the shell saturates, it can't breathe (same problem with waterproofs, and why they're all reliant on having a good DWR to allow them to breathe when it's raining).
In my opinion, pile/pertex is improved by having a DWR treated shell, since it reduces water ingress into the pile, and allows the shell to continue to breathe, regardless of what Buffalo think:
<quote>
Contrary to common belief, the effectiveness of the Pertex and Pile System does not depend upon the proofing of the Pertex shell. This stain resistant treatment added to the Pertex in manufacture is water repellent and causes rapid run off of external moisture, most noticeable in the way moisture beads on the surface. The proofing does not inhibit the absorption of moisture by the Pertex, which is its essential function if the clothing is to work properly in regard to getting rid of internal moisture.
</quote>
A non-proofed shell that wets out, or wicks provides little benefit when it's separated from the wearer's body by a thick layer of pile; the wicking serves little purpose, IMHO.
YMMV...
> Sorry Capten but I think the people who make the stuff may hold a different view on wetting agents! Hence their very clear advice on not using them.
That may be so, but then Gore advise using detergents to wash their products...
And, looking at Buffalo's washing instructions, I see no mention of not using detergents, other than issues with proofing (which I take to be the shell fabric, not the pile):
<quote>
However, it is important to follow the washing instructions:
• Do not dry clean.
• Maximum washing temperature is 40°c.
• Idealy wash in Nikwax Tech Wash. Follow washing instructions
• Use only a small amount of detergent and no conditioner, too much detergent can leave a residue, likewise conditioner. Rinse well.
• Do not use 'Biological' detergents, as they can shorten the lifespan of the proofing and affect colour. If worried that too much detergent or 'Biological' has been used rinse thoroughly in clear water.
• Always close touch and close fasteners.
• All Texturised Pertex products (Travelite trousers etc) should be turned inside out before washing to reduce pilling.
• Sleeping bags should be washed in an industrial machine such as in a laundrette.
</quote>
My italics.
http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/service_main.htm
> But it does rather go against the design brief of pertex. You undoubtly know it is decended from the fabric used in type writer ribbons! So it is very good at moving moisture to keep the wearer dry, and so warm. DWR proofing will change that.
Yes, I know about the origins of Pertex. However, I'm not a typewriter, and I don't need my ink to wick and re-distribute throughout my clothing... And Pertex have spent a lot of money developing their fabrics, and DWR treatments for them (e.g. Shield). As with all things, we're looking for a compromise; I'd rather have a shell fabric with a DWR to prevent water ingress, whilst still allowing good breathability. If the shell saturates, it can't breathe (same problem with waterproofs, and why they're all reliant on having a good DWR to allow them to breathe when it's raining).
In my opinion, pile/pertex is improved by having a DWR treated shell, since it reduces water ingress into the pile, and allows the shell to continue to breathe, regardless of what Buffalo think:
<quote>
Contrary to common belief, the effectiveness of the Pertex and Pile System does not depend upon the proofing of the Pertex shell. This stain resistant treatment added to the Pertex in manufacture is water repellent and causes rapid run off of external moisture, most noticeable in the way moisture beads on the surface. The proofing does not inhibit the absorption of moisture by the Pertex, which is its essential function if the clothing is to work properly in regard to getting rid of internal moisture.
</quote>
A non-proofed shell that wets out, or wicks provides little benefit when it's separated from the wearer's body by a thick layer of pile; the wicking serves little purpose, IMHO.
YMMV...
In reply to captain paranoia:
Tell you what Captain come out with me at work and play and see how it works out for you in the field!
"regardless of what Buffalo think" Didn't the designer of Buff have a huge input into the design of pertex, so I'll be listening to them.
Best of luck and have a cracking winter!
No idea what YMMV means
Tell you what Captain come out with me at work and play and see how it works out for you in the field!
"regardless of what Buffalo think" Didn't the designer of Buff have a huge input into the design of pertex, so I'll be listening to them.
Best of luck and have a cracking winter!
No idea what YMMV means
In reply to captain paranoia:
Ahh just having a break from the climbing wall and reread your post to some clients.
I think you are talking about DWR on waterproof shells? I am talking about the affect of DWR on pertex. So yes I agree DWR is important in waterproof shells, pertex is not BSI waterproof.
Still no idea what YMMV means, but I have a very good idea how fabrics work in the real world form my own experience and clients!
Enjoy the winter weather!
Ahh just having a break from the climbing wall and reread your post to some clients.
I think you are talking about DWR on waterproof shells? I am talking about the affect of DWR on pertex. So yes I agree DWR is important in waterproof shells, pertex is not BSI waterproof.
Still no idea what YMMV means, but I have a very good idea how fabrics work in the real world form my own experience and clients!
Enjoy the winter weather!
In reply to Shaun L:
Whether it affects the function or not, be careful of using too much detergent - you don't want it to be stuck in the pile. Was told a story of a bloke foaming up halfway up Helvellyn due to too much detergent and a lot of rain!
Whether it affects the function or not, be careful of using too much detergent - you don't want it to be stuck in the pile. Was told a story of a bloke foaming up halfway up Helvellyn due to too much detergent and a lot of rain!
In reply to Shaun L: not as warm as down jackets and are alot bulkier. They have some major advantages over down jackets in many situations, but you were only asking about warmth and pack size
In reply to Simon Wells:
A DWR is intended to prevent the face fabric 'wetting out', i.e. soaking up water so that it forms a continuous film. If this wetting out occurs, the face fabric is no longer 'breathable', since the water vapour can't pass through a layer of water.
That's why maintaining a DWR is so important for a breathable waterproof item; without a good DWR, the item stops being breathable.
The same is true of a Pertex face fabric on a water-resistant shell. The advantage of soft shells (of which Pertex, and pile-pertex can be considered examples) is that they breathe much better than waterproof, breathable fabrics, and, as a consequence, most people find them to be much more comfortable (less sweaty). If you allow the face fabric to wet out, you lose that breathability.
YMMV: Your Mileage May Vary. An expression used in internet forums to say 'you may disagree', or 'you might have different experience'. You have your experience from the real world and your clients, I have my experience from the real world. Since our preferences may well be different, our views on whether a DWR is required on pile-pretex clothing may also be different. I know that I prefer all my pertex items to have a DWR, because that's the way I use them, but I know that other people prefer not ot have DWR on their pertex items, because they use them slightly differently.
I'm happy to hear your explanation of why a DWR on a pile-pertex item is a bad thing, and the mechanisms by which allowing the pertex to wet out improves performance of the garment. I have a theory, but I'll keep that to myself for the time being, not wanting to influence you at all.
> I think you are talking about DWR on waterproof shells? I am talking about the affect of DWR on pertex. So yes I agree DWR is important in waterproof shells, pertex is not BSI waterproof.
A DWR is intended to prevent the face fabric 'wetting out', i.e. soaking up water so that it forms a continuous film. If this wetting out occurs, the face fabric is no longer 'breathable', since the water vapour can't pass through a layer of water.
That's why maintaining a DWR is so important for a breathable waterproof item; without a good DWR, the item stops being breathable.
The same is true of a Pertex face fabric on a water-resistant shell. The advantage of soft shells (of which Pertex, and pile-pertex can be considered examples) is that they breathe much better than waterproof, breathable fabrics, and, as a consequence, most people find them to be much more comfortable (less sweaty). If you allow the face fabric to wet out, you lose that breathability.
YMMV: Your Mileage May Vary. An expression used in internet forums to say 'you may disagree', or 'you might have different experience'. You have your experience from the real world and your clients, I have my experience from the real world. Since our preferences may well be different, our views on whether a DWR is required on pile-pretex clothing may also be different. I know that I prefer all my pertex items to have a DWR, because that's the way I use them, but I know that other people prefer not ot have DWR on their pertex items, because they use them slightly differently.
I'm happy to hear your explanation of why a DWR on a pile-pertex item is a bad thing, and the mechanisms by which allowing the pertex to wet out improves performance of the garment. I have a theory, but I'll keep that to myself for the time being, not wanting to influence you at all.
In reply to captain paranoia:
Sorry Captain, been out in the real world, with real people (actualy they wanted to go to a climbing wall, o the shame), I hope tommorrow weather is better. I mean what sort of person is put of learning to lead outside by 70mph wind, snow and driving hail. Weakness!
We shall have to disagree, you know much but it seem to lack the authority of the fabric design team (Hamish in this case) to give a definative answer and the real world application of the knowledge.
Have a great winter and enjoy using your prefered clothing system!
Sorry Captain, been out in the real world, with real people (actualy they wanted to go to a climbing wall, o the shame), I hope tommorrow weather is better. I mean what sort of person is put of learning to lead outside by 70mph wind, snow and driving hail. Weakness!
We shall have to disagree, you know much but it seem to lack the authority of the fabric design team (Hamish in this case) to give a definative answer and the real world application of the knowledge.
Have a great winter and enjoy using your prefered clothing system!
1
In reply to Simon Wells: I am interested in the belay jacket, YHM.
In reply to Simon Wells:
I prefer to think for myself; I don't like 'argument by authority' (i.e. Hamish or Buffalo). So, if you can't explain to me why you think a DWR is unnecessary, or even worse than no DWR, then I'll stick with my own understanding. I hope you're better at explaining things to your clients, and don't simply say "do it this way because I (or some other authority) tell you so".
Here's the argument you might have suggested against DWR:
When it's not raining, but you're sweating, the pile draws sweat to the surface of the garment, and, if the pertex wicks, it will pull water from the surface of the pile, and allow it to evaporate on the surface. Of course, if it's raining and your Pertex shell wicks, then your item stops breathing, and also allows water to pass through the Pertex shell in the reverse of the manner in which it pulls water from the pile.
So, it's a compromise between dry weather performance if you're overheating, and wet weather performance, and thus depends how you intend to use pile-pertex.
I'm not convinced that there's much dry weather improvement in performance, but I am convinced that there is a significant degradation in performance in the wet.
> you know much but it seem to lack the authority of the fabric design team (Hamish in this case) to give a definative answer and the real world application of the knowledge.
I prefer to think for myself; I don't like 'argument by authority' (i.e. Hamish or Buffalo). So, if you can't explain to me why you think a DWR is unnecessary, or even worse than no DWR, then I'll stick with my own understanding. I hope you're better at explaining things to your clients, and don't simply say "do it this way because I (or some other authority) tell you so".
Here's the argument you might have suggested against DWR:
When it's not raining, but you're sweating, the pile draws sweat to the surface of the garment, and, if the pertex wicks, it will pull water from the surface of the pile, and allow it to evaporate on the surface. Of course, if it's raining and your Pertex shell wicks, then your item stops breathing, and also allows water to pass through the Pertex shell in the reverse of the manner in which it pulls water from the pile.
So, it's a compromise between dry weather performance if you're overheating, and wet weather performance, and thus depends how you intend to use pile-pertex.
I'm not convinced that there's much dry weather improvement in performance, but I am convinced that there is a significant degradation in performance in the wet.
In reply to captain paranoia:
Twenty years of using shelled microfibre or pile (Buffalo, Montane, Marmot Driclime, TNF driclime-copy, Patagonia speed ascent) makes me agree heartily. A spray on water repellent for older and well washed tops of this type helps in drizzle or very wet snow. Below freezing, it doesn't seem too important.
> I'm not convinced that there's much dry weather improvement in performance, but I am convinced that there is a significant degradation in performance in the wet.
Twenty years of using shelled microfibre or pile (Buffalo, Montane, Marmot Driclime, TNF driclime-copy, Patagonia speed ascent) makes me agree heartily. A spray on water repellent for older and well washed tops of this type helps in drizzle or very wet snow. Below freezing, it doesn't seem too important.
In reply to TobyA:
...but decreases its ability to move sweat / inseasable perspirataion.
If its raining...really raining not drizzle, no pile & pertex will keep you dry, you then put on a lightwieght waterproof. So an affective DWR reduces the ability to deal with sweat and offers no significant advantage in heavy rain.
Any way I think the Captains points was more to do how 'wetting agents' help, not sure about that at all!
...but decreases its ability to move sweat / inseasable perspirataion.
If its raining...really raining not drizzle, no pile & pertex will keep you dry, you then put on a lightwieght waterproof. So an affective DWR reduces the ability to deal with sweat and offers no significant advantage in heavy rain.
Any way I think the Captains points was more to do how 'wetting agents' help, not sure about that at all!
In reply to Simon Wells:
Maybe I have magic sweat, but it makes no difference to me (and I do sweat a lot which is why I always used Buffalo before anyone called it "softshell"). I find it odd that anyone notices a difference between how a pertex/pile type top deals with sweat if it has been treated or not. Can't say I've ever noticed a difference.
I tend not to go climbing in heavy rain, but in sleety condition or when icefalls are spraying a lot, I find the DWR on my Speed Ascent works really well (its still quite new and hasn't been washed much).
I never took a shell with me in Scotland in winter climbing; for those years I just had the buff shirt and belay jacket. Again, I would try and avoid rain, but even when you are walking out in evening and it rains as you get lower, I generally found my buffalo shirt dealt with it satisfactorily. These days I might have a shell, but only because I can afford more gear!
> So an affective DWR reduces the ability to deal with sweat
Maybe I have magic sweat, but it makes no difference to me (and I do sweat a lot which is why I always used Buffalo before anyone called it "softshell"). I find it odd that anyone notices a difference between how a pertex/pile type top deals with sweat if it has been treated or not. Can't say I've ever noticed a difference.
> and offers no significant advantage in heavy rain.
I tend not to go climbing in heavy rain, but in sleety condition or when icefalls are spraying a lot, I find the DWR on my Speed Ascent works really well (its still quite new and hasn't been washed much).
I never took a shell with me in Scotland in winter climbing; for those years I just had the buff shirt and belay jacket. Again, I would try and avoid rain, but even when you are walking out in evening and it rains as you get lower, I generally found my buffalo shirt dealt with it satisfactorily. These days I might have a shell, but only because I can afford more gear!
In reply to captain paranoia:
I think DWR, while interesting is distracting from your main point about 'wetting agents' being a positive addition to pile, pertex, and waterproofs?
Apologies if my use of the word authoritative went over your Captains hat, Hamish went to (Perseverance??) the Mill with a design brief to creat a manmade version of ventile / cotton fabrics to create a similar movement of moisture to what he summarised was happening in the Force 10 tent fabric he had been involved in using. So 'authority' as in 'he really knows what he is talking about because he is the author of its design'. I suspect few people outside of the sadly now Japanese owned / produced Mill know as much about Pertex as Hamish did / does. I think even Ventile is now foreign owned and produced, Swiss???
"I hope you're better at explaining things to your clients, and don't simply say "do it this way because I (or some other authority) tell you so".
Tell you what 15% discount of my next course so you can appraise my instructing style!
PS
Excellent summary of my point, unfortunately I am able to glean sufficient and clear understanding on your DWR / Wetting theory to offer such a summary. I suspect the failure to clearly understand you succinct and substantiated arguments is mine.
I think DWR, while interesting is distracting from your main point about 'wetting agents' being a positive addition to pile, pertex, and waterproofs?
Apologies if my use of the word authoritative went over your Captains hat, Hamish went to (Perseverance??) the Mill with a design brief to creat a manmade version of ventile / cotton fabrics to create a similar movement of moisture to what he summarised was happening in the Force 10 tent fabric he had been involved in using. So 'authority' as in 'he really knows what he is talking about because he is the author of its design'. I suspect few people outside of the sadly now Japanese owned / produced Mill know as much about Pertex as Hamish did / does. I think even Ventile is now foreign owned and produced, Swiss???
"I hope you're better at explaining things to your clients, and don't simply say "do it this way because I (or some other authority) tell you so".
Tell you what 15% discount of my next course so you can appraise my instructing style!
PS
Excellent summary of my point, unfortunately I am able to glean sufficient and clear understanding on your DWR / Wetting theory to offer such a summary. I suspect the failure to clearly understand you succinct and substantiated arguments is mine.
In reply to TobyA:
You obviously have much better luck with the weather than me!
No idea about the other fabric or garment you mentioned (Speed Ascent?) the discussion is about pertex and pile. I use DWR on my shell (s), paramo but find not advantage on Pertex and the fact that Leeds University Textile Technology Department tells us it only affectively lasts 30 hours (3 good days on the Ben) does not help!
I think Captains main thrust was the use of Wetting Agents to improve pile and pertex, not something I can see the benefit of?
You obviously have much better luck with the weather than me!
No idea about the other fabric or garment you mentioned (Speed Ascent?) the discussion is about pertex and pile. I use DWR on my shell (s), paramo but find not advantage on Pertex and the fact that Leeds University Textile Technology Department tells us it only affectively lasts 30 hours (3 good days on the Ben) does not help!
I think Captains main thrust was the use of Wetting Agents to improve pile and pertex, not something I can see the benefit of?
1
In reply to Simon Wells:
PS To all who want to buy the Buffalo package I am just putting the photo's on flickr and I will email you the URL.
Please Captain I need a reply to keep this thread as a top posting to advertise the Buffalo Bundle!!
Thank you!
PS To all who want to buy the Buffalo package I am just putting the photo's on flickr and I will email you the URL.
Please Captain I need a reply to keep this thread as a top posting to advertise the Buffalo Bundle!!
Thank you!
In reply to Simon Wells:
I like ice/mixed climbing in winter and rock climbing in the summer, I don't like hiking in the rain much, so I do try avoid rain. Doesn't always happen, but there you go.
It's basically the most recent Patagonia take on Buffalo - pile on inside, a breathable nylon shell on the outer.
> You obviously have much better luck with the weather than me!
I like ice/mixed climbing in winter and rock climbing in the summer, I don't like hiking in the rain much, so I do try avoid rain. Doesn't always happen, but there you go.
> No idea about the other fabric or garment you mentioned (Speed Ascent?)
It's basically the most recent Patagonia take on Buffalo - pile on inside, a breathable nylon shell on the outer.
In reply to TobyA:
Thank you Toby for keeping this at the top, had to dash off to Danish Oil the new skirting boards the Beloved has orderd. Kind of DWR for wood I guess, just hope it last longer than DWR's average of 30hour
Thank you Toby for keeping this at the top, had to dash off to Danish Oil the new skirting boards the Beloved has orderd. Kind of DWR for wood I guess, just hope it last longer than DWR's average of 30hour
In reply to Simon Wells:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/organize/?start_tab=one_set72157627988111777
To see the Buffalo Bundle for £50, Pertex Belay Jacket £15 and and Trax Pile and Pertex £10, all washed in pure soap
To all who have emailed me please let me know if you are interesed first come first served!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/organize/?start_tab=one_set72157627988111777
To see the Buffalo Bundle for £50, Pertex Belay Jacket £15 and and Trax Pile and Pertex £10, all washed in pure soap
To all who have emailed me please let me know if you are interesed first come first served!
In reply to Simon Wells:
Sorry if link does not work, please try this one:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67699319@N08/
Sorry if link does not work, please try this one:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67699319@N08/
In reply to Simon Wells:
Buffalo Bundle sold subject to payment.
Trax Pile and Pertex £10 still going, as is Pertex and insulation Belay jacket for £15
Buffalo Bundle sold subject to payment.
Trax Pile and Pertex £10 still going, as is Pertex and insulation Belay jacket for £15
In reply to Simon Wells:
No, that wasn't my main point. I originally only discussed the effect of detergents/wetting agents on the wicking ability of the pile because you said that wetting agents would stop it wicking:
"never use normal washing powder as the wetting agents stop it wicking"
My point was that wetting agents will not stop the pile wicking; if anything, they will improve the wicking. A wetting agent, as its name suggests, is intended to allow water to soak into a fabric better, to assist cleaning. 'Wicking' is another way of saying 'soaking into'. Whether you want to, or need to improve the wicking is a moot point. By default, the polyester pile will wick.
Using a wash-in DWR treatment will stop the pile from wicking (making it work like a reversed Paramo 'pump liner', where capillary depression would drive the water out of the pile, and towards the body), which is why I suggested a spray-on treatment for the Pertex shell only.
Washing in detergent will negate the effect of the DWR treatment on the shell as it is supplied by Buffalo; that's the reason that Buffalo suggest (as I would) washing in soap; to retain the protection provided by the DWR, not because it will adversely affect the wicking of the pile.
It didn't go over my hat at all; I'm quite prepared to accept that Hamish understands how Pertex and pile/Pertex works better than I do, but you haven't actually said what Hamish thinks about it, or provided any links to such an explanation.
I won't accept any authority's statement without actually knowing what that statement is supposed to be, or understanding and accepting the rationale behind it. Manufacturers' explanations are often a lot of waffly pseudo-science BS (Accapi, for instance) that defies scientific understanding.
If I'm sweating so much that it would wet out the face Pertex, I'd want to try to reduce my sweating by other means; it would mean that I'd be saturating the pile with sweat, which would be bad from the perspectives of overheating, dehydration and chilling when static. Mild sensible perspiration, and insensible perspiration should be dealt with by evaporation by body heat within the pile, and release to the environment via the breathable Pertex shell.
Thanks. Up to now, I had no idea what your point was, because you hadn't actually made it...
The main reason that I've continued to respond is that I don't like to see unresolved misunderstandings, either on my part, or on someone else's part. So I've tried to present my side of the argument. I've also presented what I think is your side of the argument, for balance.
I'm glad to hear that it's had the secondary effect of helping you shift your pile-pertex items...
> Any way I think the Captains points was more to do how 'wetting agents' help, not sure about that at all!
No, that wasn't my main point. I originally only discussed the effect of detergents/wetting agents on the wicking ability of the pile because you said that wetting agents would stop it wicking:
"never use normal washing powder as the wetting agents stop it wicking"
My point was that wetting agents will not stop the pile wicking; if anything, they will improve the wicking. A wetting agent, as its name suggests, is intended to allow water to soak into a fabric better, to assist cleaning. 'Wicking' is another way of saying 'soaking into'. Whether you want to, or need to improve the wicking is a moot point. By default, the polyester pile will wick.
Using a wash-in DWR treatment will stop the pile from wicking (making it work like a reversed Paramo 'pump liner', where capillary depression would drive the water out of the pile, and towards the body), which is why I suggested a spray-on treatment for the Pertex shell only.
Washing in detergent will negate the effect of the DWR treatment on the shell as it is supplied by Buffalo; that's the reason that Buffalo suggest (as I would) washing in soap; to retain the protection provided by the DWR, not because it will adversely affect the wicking of the pile.
> Apologies if my use of the word authoritative went over your Captains hat
> So 'authority' as in 'he really knows what he is talking about
> So 'authority' as in 'he really knows what he is talking about
It didn't go over my hat at all; I'm quite prepared to accept that Hamish understands how Pertex and pile/Pertex works better than I do, but you haven't actually said what Hamish thinks about it, or provided any links to such an explanation.
I won't accept any authority's statement without actually knowing what that statement is supposed to be, or understanding and accepting the rationale behind it. Manufacturers' explanations are often a lot of waffly pseudo-science BS (Accapi, for instance) that defies scientific understanding.
> ...but decreases its ability to move sweat / inseasable perspirataion.
If I'm sweating so much that it would wet out the face Pertex, I'd want to try to reduce my sweating by other means; it would mean that I'd be saturating the pile with sweat, which would be bad from the perspectives of overheating, dehydration and chilling when static. Mild sensible perspiration, and insensible perspiration should be dealt with by evaporation by body heat within the pile, and release to the environment via the breathable Pertex shell.
> Excellent summary of my point
Thanks. Up to now, I had no idea what your point was, because you hadn't actually made it...
> Please Captain I need a reply to keep this thread as a top posting to advertise the Buffalo Bundle!!
The main reason that I've continued to respond is that I don't like to see unresolved misunderstandings, either on my part, or on someone else's part. So I've tried to present my side of the argument. I've also presented what I think is your side of the argument, for balance.
I'm glad to hear that it's had the secondary effect of helping you shift your pile-pertex items...
In reply to captain paranoia:
Err my understanding of how it works actually came from Hamish during a number of telephone calls in about '93, as a student and then graduate I worked in an independent outdoor retailers to pay for my climbing habit.
The owner of the shop and Hamish had a very mmmm 'difficult' relationship so refused to stock Buffalo. Instead they chose Dick Turnballs look a like products, so I was able to pick up on his take on pile and pertex as well. As a skint student and shop worker Hamish was not only kind enough to let me have some seconds but also talked me through how and why it worked. So sorry I can't reference the telephone calls and I chucked out all the photo copied retail 'training' documents they sent out. I suspect he did this because he was / is a nice person and to wind up my then employer!
I also read about the development of the fabric in Mark Parson and Mary Roses fascinating "Invisible on Everest". Again Mark has been gracious enough a few times to chat to me on the phone about some of the OMM products and his understanding of fabrics. In between all of this I have been playing around with pertex as my Mother was wise enough to insist I learnt to use a sewing machine and I can say I think it is a remarkable fabric and much misrated and misunderstood. My poor wife has had to suffer several prototype garments. I think the worst was a long trip to the Wilde Kiaser, I had made her a white pertex top to go over a pile jacket (more flexable than a combined garmet) and I errrmmm made the arms to short!!! So the night before I sewed on 'extension'. She very kindly wore the 'frankencoat' for the trip before she strangely lost it on our return. She is very long suffering with my experiments.
I am afraid my Paranoid friend you are quit correct I never made a point, unless it was an inverses one as I was merely trying to correlate your views to what I was told! So here goes my view:
Don't treat it, wash it in pure soap.
I suspect there are a number of people on UKC who really new / know Hamish. I was merely a few passing conversations, so I not claiming some kind of anointed authority just passing on what the guy who for want of a better word 'invented' pile and pertex told me and several other people taught me at the time.
ps
Trax Pile and Pertex £10 still going, as is Pertex and insulation Belay jacket for £15
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67699319@N08/
Err my understanding of how it works actually came from Hamish during a number of telephone calls in about '93, as a student and then graduate I worked in an independent outdoor retailers to pay for my climbing habit.
The owner of the shop and Hamish had a very mmmm 'difficult' relationship so refused to stock Buffalo. Instead they chose Dick Turnballs look a like products, so I was able to pick up on his take on pile and pertex as well. As a skint student and shop worker Hamish was not only kind enough to let me have some seconds but also talked me through how and why it worked. So sorry I can't reference the telephone calls and I chucked out all the photo copied retail 'training' documents they sent out. I suspect he did this because he was / is a nice person and to wind up my then employer!
I also read about the development of the fabric in Mark Parson and Mary Roses fascinating "Invisible on Everest". Again Mark has been gracious enough a few times to chat to me on the phone about some of the OMM products and his understanding of fabrics. In between all of this I have been playing around with pertex as my Mother was wise enough to insist I learnt to use a sewing machine and I can say I think it is a remarkable fabric and much misrated and misunderstood. My poor wife has had to suffer several prototype garments. I think the worst was a long trip to the Wilde Kiaser, I had made her a white pertex top to go over a pile jacket (more flexable than a combined garmet) and I errrmmm made the arms to short!!! So the night before I sewed on 'extension'. She very kindly wore the 'frankencoat' for the trip before she strangely lost it on our return. She is very long suffering with my experiments.
I am afraid my Paranoid friend you are quit correct I never made a point, unless it was an inverses one as I was merely trying to correlate your views to what I was told! So here goes my view:
Don't treat it, wash it in pure soap.
I suspect there are a number of people on UKC who really new / know Hamish. I was merely a few passing conversations, so I not claiming some kind of anointed authority just passing on what the guy who for want of a better word 'invented' pile and pertex told me and several other people taught me at the time.
ps
Trax Pile and Pertex £10 still going, as is Pertex and insulation Belay jacket for £15
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67699319@N08/
1
In reply to Simon Wells:
Hamish seemed a really nice guy and very generous too
I phoned up Buffalo around the late eighties or early nineties to enquire about the the Buffalo Mountain shirts and whether it was possible to get over-trousers in pertex without the pile lining.
Well, the next thing I knew was it was Hamish himself on the phone asking for my leg and waist size. He insisted I take several pairs of full length zipped over trousers in different weights of pertex AND a unlined shirt - to try out for FREE!!! I've still got and still use the over-trousers rather than full waterproofs 90% of the time though now use the Paramo wind-shirt...
Cheers Ron
Hamish seemed a really nice guy and very generous too
I phoned up Buffalo around the late eighties or early nineties to enquire about the the Buffalo Mountain shirts and whether it was possible to get over-trousers in pertex without the pile lining.
Well, the next thing I knew was it was Hamish himself on the phone asking for my leg and waist size. He insisted I take several pairs of full length zipped over trousers in different weights of pertex AND a unlined shirt - to try out for FREE!!! I've still got and still use the over-trousers rather than full waterproofs 90% of the time though now use the Paramo wind-shirt...
Cheers Ron
In reply to Ron Walker:
Yes it sounds very similar to my experience, yet I know a few retailers who found him 'interesting'. I always though that if you are going to be that revolutionary (and it was at the time) you needed a certain strength of character that might cause problems elsewhere.
Does any one know if Hamish is still going?
Yes it sounds very similar to my experience, yet I know a few retailers who found him 'interesting'. I always though that if you are going to be that revolutionary (and it was at the time) you needed a certain strength of character that might cause problems elsewhere.
Does any one know if Hamish is still going?
In reply to Simon Wells:
Unfortunately if memory serves me correctly he gave up running Buffalo due to ill health a number of years ago...
Unfortunately if memory serves me correctly he gave up running Buffalo due to ill health a number of years ago...
In reply to Shaun L: Buffalo bundle received, cheers!
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