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I think I know the answer to this question (at least what may work best for me) but I wanted to test it out against the great UKC collective.
I've been climbing almost 20 years now but started late in life. Solid trad background and, at my best, got up to plenty of E1 onsights with the very occasional E2 when inspiration struck. I've perhaps tended to go for the more slabby routes, and often fairly bold, but not exclusively by any means. As seems to be the norm, I've done a bit more sports climbing in recent years for various reasons and on a good day I will onsight 6a+/6b. I don't actually seem to be able to climb much harder than that (I have onsighted a couple of 6b+'s which did suit me and were probably soft anyway). All outside grades incidentally, though my indoor grades are very similar (more consistent at 6b onsight inside). I am getting technically better slowly and my sports grades are improving, including on steeper stuff. I'm not really into bouldering or redpointing, which I know isn't very helpful in terms of strength gains.
My trad grades have slowly been declining over the last few years whereas my sports grades have slowly risen (to the rather pathetic level mentioned above). In fact, I don't think I collected any E points last year (just did a lot of VS/HVS's), perhaps for the first time in ages.
However, I feel more enthused to push my trad grade this year than for a long time. On my first outing last weekend (a month of illness stopped me getting out before then) I jumped straight in at HVS and also repeated an E1 which I'd previously done (Grim Wall Direct - low'ish in the grade I know). I was quite pleased given I've not done any trad for about 5 months (to my shame).
The question is how to consolidate again at E1 and hopefully push my grade on into proper E2 territory. My aim is to tick some classics such as Vector and Left Wall. My climbing partners don't lead harder than me so I don't get out on harder ground to see how it feels. My feeling is that, unless I can somehow improve my technical ability and strength in a way that hasn't been possible previously (and I have tried, albeit not as systematically as I should), I probably do have a natural ceiling where even if my head were letting me, I would stall at E2/3. F6b onsight ability might see me up the majority of E2's if I could let myself try them and control the risks.
How would you go about this? Is it as simple as slowly building on past and current experience/performance and trying to believe in myself more. My climbing partners say (and I agree) that my biggest weakness is lack of self-belief and finding it hard to get on the routes in the 1st place, but that once I do I am usually pretty determined in a not very confident way Or would you find a willing (better) partner to drag you up some hard routes to see how it feels? Or do you think I am off the mark and should be training like a demon to give me more leeway (when I've tried this before it ended in endless lay-offs from injury)?
Thoughts on a postcard would be very welcome. It's sunny out there, the season is young, and I feel keen but slightly hesitant.
I've been climbing almost 20 years now but started late in life. Solid trad background and, at my best, got up to plenty of E1 onsights with the very occasional E2 when inspiration struck. I've perhaps tended to go for the more slabby routes, and often fairly bold, but not exclusively by any means. As seems to be the norm, I've done a bit more sports climbing in recent years for various reasons and on a good day I will onsight 6a+/6b. I don't actually seem to be able to climb much harder than that (I have onsighted a couple of 6b+'s which did suit me and were probably soft anyway). All outside grades incidentally, though my indoor grades are very similar (more consistent at 6b onsight inside). I am getting technically better slowly and my sports grades are improving, including on steeper stuff. I'm not really into bouldering or redpointing, which I know isn't very helpful in terms of strength gains.
My trad grades have slowly been declining over the last few years whereas my sports grades have slowly risen (to the rather pathetic level mentioned above). In fact, I don't think I collected any E points last year (just did a lot of VS/HVS's), perhaps for the first time in ages.
However, I feel more enthused to push my trad grade this year than for a long time. On my first outing last weekend (a month of illness stopped me getting out before then) I jumped straight in at HVS and also repeated an E1 which I'd previously done (Grim Wall Direct - low'ish in the grade I know). I was quite pleased given I've not done any trad for about 5 months (to my shame).
The question is how to consolidate again at E1 and hopefully push my grade on into proper E2 territory. My aim is to tick some classics such as Vector and Left Wall. My climbing partners don't lead harder than me so I don't get out on harder ground to see how it feels. My feeling is that, unless I can somehow improve my technical ability and strength in a way that hasn't been possible previously (and I have tried, albeit not as systematically as I should), I probably do have a natural ceiling where even if my head were letting me, I would stall at E2/3. F6b onsight ability might see me up the majority of E2's if I could let myself try them and control the risks.
How would you go about this? Is it as simple as slowly building on past and current experience/performance and trying to believe in myself more. My climbing partners say (and I agree) that my biggest weakness is lack of self-belief and finding it hard to get on the routes in the 1st place, but that once I do I am usually pretty determined in a not very confident way Or would you find a willing (better) partner to drag you up some hard routes to see how it feels? Or do you think I am off the mark and should be training like a demon to give me more leeway (when I've tried this before it ended in endless lay-offs from injury)?
Thoughts on a postcard would be very welcome. It's sunny out there, the season is young, and I feel keen but slightly hesitant.
In reply to JonC: Try some sustained bouldering at your limit. Problems that take you 6,7 or 8 tries to complete.
Helps technique and strength.
Helps technique and strength.
In reply to JonC:
As you say, you are probably technically better than you were before if you have always managed to get out on the rock fairly frequently, so the weakness is something else. It is indeed probably mainly in the mind and some power-endurance work may be required too.
I am similar to you in that redpointing doesn't interest me (in fact sport doesn't interest me), although I do enjoy bouldering in the winter. I also very rarely climb with someone much better than me on trad. However, this winter I have made a very conscious effort to train strength (boulder) for the first few months and from February I have trained on indoor routes and a little sport outside last week. I'm still in that phase, although yesterday I got on a "tough" E1 and found it straightforward. I felt that already the training programme was vindicated and that I want to jump on a proper E2 asap.
In terms of the head-game, I've needed to get on fairly safe stuff since I fell off last year. I'm building up to slighlty more run-out stuff, but avoiding dodgy gear where possible
As you say, you are probably technically better than you were before if you have always managed to get out on the rock fairly frequently, so the weakness is something else. It is indeed probably mainly in the mind and some power-endurance work may be required too.
I am similar to you in that redpointing doesn't interest me (in fact sport doesn't interest me), although I do enjoy bouldering in the winter. I also very rarely climb with someone much better than me on trad. However, this winter I have made a very conscious effort to train strength (boulder) for the first few months and from February I have trained on indoor routes and a little sport outside last week. I'm still in that phase, although yesterday I got on a "tough" E1 and found it straightforward. I felt that already the training programme was vindicated and that I want to jump on a proper E2 asap.
In terms of the head-game, I've needed to get on fairly safe stuff since I fell off last year. I'm building up to slighlty more run-out stuff, but avoiding dodgy gear where possible
In reply to scooott: Another vote for Bouldering here. It may seem a strange recommendation but you will find it improves strength, tequnique and co-ordination and is good fun.
In reply to JonC:
If you diagnose the problem as a lack of self belief, and you have noone to drag you up stuff, then the thought that pops into my head is that more experience of harder moves, especially on lead, might help, so sport (or bouldering if you prefer) could be useful. I would suggest redpoints because they really show you how large your tank is, although you did say you didn't like it - it does work though!
I'd make sure that if you do do something like that you keep up plenty of onsighting, and trad onsighting, in order to keep yourself in a state where if you make the gains you can apply them to the trad.
If you diagnose the problem as a lack of self belief, and you have noone to drag you up stuff, then the thought that pops into my head is that more experience of harder moves, especially on lead, might help, so sport (or bouldering if you prefer) could be useful. I would suggest redpoints because they really show you how large your tank is, although you did say you didn't like it - it does work though!
I'd make sure that if you do do something like that you keep up plenty of onsighting, and trad onsighting, in order to keep yourself in a state where if you make the gains you can apply them to the trad.
In reply to scooott and tombeasley:
re bouldering, yes, I know it will help technique and strength and I may well try to start building it into my training. I think I notice it more at my limit on sports routes at the moment when I tend to hit stopper moves (not enough strength largely but also some technique). Someone else suggested that to me as the best solution. My alternative is at the wall to TR some very hard stuff so that I have to work it. As I said, for some reason, bouldering is not something I enjoy particularly.
Anyway, I think you sort of missed the point of my OP. My rather long winded post was asking what would you do to close the gap between trad lead grade and current ability? Not how do I get stronger/fitter etc, though I accept that doing that would help once I start to shift my grade up.
re bouldering, yes, I know it will help technique and strength and I may well try to start building it into my training. I think I notice it more at my limit on sports routes at the moment when I tend to hit stopper moves (not enough strength largely but also some technique). Someone else suggested that to me as the best solution. My alternative is at the wall to TR some very hard stuff so that I have to work it. As I said, for some reason, bouldering is not something I enjoy particularly.
Anyway, I think you sort of missed the point of my OP. My rather long winded post was asking what would you do to close the gap between trad lead grade and current ability? Not how do I get stronger/fitter etc, though I accept that doing that would help once I start to shift my grade up.
In reply to JonC:
I look for climbs with a disparity between the tech and adjective grades eg my first VS was a (short) 5b my first HVS was a 5c, my rationale is that they are gong to be safe(ish) but will improve my technique and confidence.
I think this is the opposite to the normal practice of easy but bold first routes in a grade but it works for me and might be useful to you because it sounds like we are both reasonably strong but cowardly.....
I look for climbs with a disparity between the tech and adjective grades eg my first VS was a (short) 5b my first HVS was a 5c, my rationale is that they are gong to be safe(ish) but will improve my technique and confidence.
I think this is the opposite to the normal practice of easy but bold first routes in a grade but it works for me and might be useful to you because it sounds like we are both reasonably strong but cowardly.....
In reply to JonC:
I would say that there are 2 ways to improve. One is to do more sport/bouldering with a view to upping your technical ability and fitness (giving you more in hand when onsighting trad routes). The other is to just keep doing the trad, but keep pushing things rather than coasting at lower grades (keeps a level of fitness, but works the head and trad skills more).
The first would be more efficient, but for me (and I suspect you), the second will be slower but easier to maintain.
I have always been quite a strong climber on sport or bouldering but have struggled to transfer that to trad. I now know that my greatest problem was in always playing it safe, and never actually getting on the routes which would push me but were within my ability. I now climb far less than I used to, and my fitness has dropped a long way (due to a young family and living too far from rock) but I am climbing the same grades I always have done, often more easily than I used to. This is purely due to a psychological change - I now have less time so go for things rather than put them off for next time. I find that a good session or two at the start of the season can get me on a roll. Once the roll starts, keep with it.
I would say that there are 2 ways to improve. One is to do more sport/bouldering with a view to upping your technical ability and fitness (giving you more in hand when onsighting trad routes). The other is to just keep doing the trad, but keep pushing things rather than coasting at lower grades (keeps a level of fitness, but works the head and trad skills more).
The first would be more efficient, but for me (and I suspect you), the second will be slower but easier to maintain.
I have always been quite a strong climber on sport or bouldering but have struggled to transfer that to trad. I now know that my greatest problem was in always playing it safe, and never actually getting on the routes which would push me but were within my ability. I now climb far less than I used to, and my fitness has dropped a long way (due to a young family and living too far from rock) but I am climbing the same grades I always have done, often more easily than I used to. This is purely due to a psychological change - I now have less time so go for things rather than put them off for next time. I find that a good session or two at the start of the season can get me on a roll. Once the roll starts, keep with it.
In reply to JonC:
If 6b really is approaching the upper end of your ability and assuming that is 6b in your favored style* and that you're falling not just backing off when it gets hard then you're not going to have a lot in hand at E2 unless you choose them carefully.
That said, it sounds to me like you're maybe not actually failing at this level, it's more of a self imposed cap and that if you really want to you can and occasionally do turn up the wick a little for routes that inspire. A supportive, enthusiastic but realistic partner to help you deal with the self doubt will be a real asset! Maybe you can 're-train' one of your existing partners, perhaps get them enthused about improvement too?
If you can afford the time (and stand the boredom) training your stamina shouldn't lead to injury and it'll probably help a little with staying calm/focused as the pump starts to build up.
Do you just climb onsight, might a bit of redpointing (sport or on gear) boost your confidence? It has the added bonus of reminding you just how badly pumped you can get while still being able to function, something that can be a real comfort while fiddling with awkward gear or pressing on to a rest while fighting the urge to retreat.
To be honest if you're straight into the HVSs and E1s early season and with 20years experience behind you you really just need to be getting on the routes, you'll cruise them!
jk
If 6b really is approaching the upper end of your ability and assuming that is 6b in your favored style* and that you're falling not just backing off when it gets hard then you're not going to have a lot in hand at E2 unless you choose them carefully.
That said, it sounds to me like you're maybe not actually failing at this level, it's more of a self imposed cap and that if you really want to you can and occasionally do turn up the wick a little for routes that inspire. A supportive, enthusiastic but realistic partner to help you deal with the self doubt will be a real asset! Maybe you can 're-train' one of your existing partners, perhaps get them enthused about improvement too?
If you can afford the time (and stand the boredom) training your stamina shouldn't lead to injury and it'll probably help a little with staying calm/focused as the pump starts to build up.
Do you just climb onsight, might a bit of redpointing (sport or on gear) boost your confidence? It has the added bonus of reminding you just how badly pumped you can get while still being able to function, something that can be a real comfort while fiddling with awkward gear or pressing on to a rest while fighting the urge to retreat.
To be honest if you're straight into the HVSs and E1s early season and with 20years experience behind you you really just need to be getting on the routes, you'll cruise them!
jk
In reply to JonC:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2648
Start with the right attitude and enough determination, actually try hard, and work on what you need to work on.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2648
Start with the right attitude and enough determination, actually try hard, and work on what you need to work on.
In reply to JonC:
If you're working routes at the wall do it on lead, it's safe and you quickly relax climbing at your limit while facing a fall, something that's valuable even when you really don't want to be taking that fall outside.
I don't see a gap; E1/F6b are in the right ball park. E2/3 without addressing that sport limit will require some serious comportment and a bit of careful route selection.
> My alternative is at the wall to TR some very hard stuff so that I have to work it. As I said, for some reason, bouldering is not something I enjoy particularly.
If you're working routes at the wall do it on lead, it's safe and you quickly relax climbing at your limit while facing a fall, something that's valuable even when you really don't want to be taking that fall outside.
> Anyway, I think you sort of missed the point of my OP. My rather long winded post was asking what would you do to close the gap between trad lead grade and current ability?
I don't see a gap; E1/F6b are in the right ball park. E2/3 without addressing that sport limit will require some serious comportment and a bit of careful route selection.
In reply to Cake:
Thanks for the interesting response. I do enjoy sports climbing and have focussed on that - with some results but it's not like I've become a f7a climber and I don't think I ever will. With some more application and better training (as you say), I may creep up into the high f6's.
Even with the relatively modest gains I have made, I felt a lot better last weekend than I expected. Even still suffering slightly from a virus, I wasn't really pushed overly on low E1 5b territory. It felt hard, but not desparate. And for a bold'ish route in places, I wasn't overly concerned at any stage.
However, I just look at something like Vector and wonder how I'd fare and have no idea. I am sure it would be a real struggle and would be at the limit of my current ability, but I have no real frame of reference and can't make myself get on it. I think if my sports climbing were rather better than it is, I might feel more inclined to push my trad grade but I don't have that much leeway. Hence why I accept that bouldering etc may be the only way to give myself enough margin for safety that I can make the mental leap.
The other way is to get someone to drag me up some harder stuff. The only problem is that when I did that years ago (when a relative newbie), I actually found it more scary than leading as I wasn't in control and it didn't feel 'safe'. At least when I lead I'm sort of in control of the situation and feel ok by and large. I'm not sure if it would be a problem now or not; might depend who the person was.
Thanks for the interesting response. I do enjoy sports climbing and have focussed on that - with some results but it's not like I've become a f7a climber and I don't think I ever will. With some more application and better training (as you say), I may creep up into the high f6's.
Even with the relatively modest gains I have made, I felt a lot better last weekend than I expected. Even still suffering slightly from a virus, I wasn't really pushed overly on low E1 5b territory. It felt hard, but not desparate. And for a bold'ish route in places, I wasn't overly concerned at any stage.
However, I just look at something like Vector and wonder how I'd fare and have no idea. I am sure it would be a real struggle and would be at the limit of my current ability, but I have no real frame of reference and can't make myself get on it. I think if my sports climbing were rather better than it is, I might feel more inclined to push my trad grade but I don't have that much leeway. Hence why I accept that bouldering etc may be the only way to give myself enough margin for safety that I can make the mental leap.
The other way is to get someone to drag me up some harder stuff. The only problem is that when I did that years ago (when a relative newbie), I actually found it more scary than leading as I wasn't in control and it didn't feel 'safe'. At least when I lead I'm sort of in control of the situation and feel ok by and large. I'm not sure if it would be a problem now or not; might depend who the person was.
In reply to Monk:
I agree. I suppose I have tried a bit of both in that previously I did push my trad grade without any bouldering or sports climbing but hit a block at the E1/2 intersection. Now I've certainly upped my (admittedly still rather woeful) sports climbing ability and it has fed into my trad climbing so that I can feel I am climbing better and E1 came quite easily (a repeat though).
Me too in some of my better years. This year I feel stronger (arguably not strong enough yet though for my objectives though) and I hit the ground running on trad. So, yes, I want to keep on with the roll.
> I would say that there are 2 ways to improve. One is to do more sport/bouldering with a view to upping your technical ability and fitness (giving you more in hand when onsighting trad routes). The other is to just keep doing the trad, but keep pushing things rather than coasting at lower grades
> The first would be more efficient, but for me (and I suspect you), the second will be slower but easier to maintain.
I agree. I suppose I have tried a bit of both in that previously I did push my trad grade without any bouldering or sports climbing but hit a block at the E1/2 intersection. Now I've certainly upped my (admittedly still rather woeful) sports climbing ability and it has fed into my trad climbing so that I can feel I am climbing better and E1 came quite easily (a repeat though).
> I find that a good session or two at the start of the season can get me on a roll. Once the roll starts, keep with it.
Me too in some of my better years. This year I feel stronger (arguably not strong enough yet though for my objectives though) and I hit the ground running on trad. So, yes, I want to keep on with the roll.
In reply to jkarran:
I can onsight around 6a+ most of the time (in or out) and, if the route suits me, 6b. I don't do a lot of really steep sports climbing but I don't think that's a huge issue if treating it as training for trad. I am quite determined and most of the time I am pushing myself until I fall rather than backing off. In my favoured style (slabby technical walls) I have ticked a couple of 6b+'s but those were genuine skin of my teeth moments with no margin. So that is my absolute limit even in favoured style.
I have one in training at the moment. I think he may have too much faith in me however! A potentially dangerous thing More seriously, I agree it would help if I were being gently pushed/encouraged at the right times.
Yes, just onsight. I suppose I don't really know how to redpoint at the wall even eg. how long to rest between attempts without getting terminal pump.
On your later post, I always thought f6a/+ was about E1 and f6b knocking into real E2 territory. I wholeheartedly agree that doing a sports 6b is not equivalent to E2 trad as the more static climbing style demanded by the latter is harder. I suppose I have been trying to make the most of my experience to squeeze the gap between my technical limit and my trad lead grade. However, that does become a dangerous game to play eventually unless on quite safe routes.
I guess I do need to approach the two things together and try to get more of a margin for error by training harder (however I do that) and let it feed into my trad climbing (trying not to take the easy options each time i get out).
> If 6b really is approaching the upper end of your ability and assuming that is 6b in your favored style* and that you're falling not just backing off when it gets hard then you're not going to have a lot in hand at E2 unless you choose them carefully.
I can onsight around 6a+ most of the time (in or out) and, if the route suits me, 6b. I don't do a lot of really steep sports climbing but I don't think that's a huge issue if treating it as training for trad. I am quite determined and most of the time I am pushing myself until I fall rather than backing off. In my favoured style (slabby technical walls) I have ticked a couple of 6b+'s but those were genuine skin of my teeth moments with no margin. So that is my absolute limit even in favoured style.
> A supportive, enthusiastic but realistic partner to help you deal with the self doubt will be a real asset! Maybe you can 're-train' one of your existing partners, perhaps get them enthused about improvement too?
I have one in training at the moment. I think he may have too much faith in me however! A potentially dangerous thing More seriously, I agree it would help if I were being gently pushed/encouraged at the right times.
> Do you just climb onsight, might a bit of redpointing (sport or on gear) boost your confidence?
Yes, just onsight. I suppose I don't really know how to redpoint at the wall even eg. how long to rest between attempts without getting terminal pump.
On your later post, I always thought f6a/+ was about E1 and f6b knocking into real E2 territory. I wholeheartedly agree that doing a sports 6b is not equivalent to E2 trad as the more static climbing style demanded by the latter is harder. I suppose I have been trying to make the most of my experience to squeeze the gap between my technical limit and my trad lead grade. However, that does become a dangerous game to play eventually unless on quite safe routes.
I guess I do need to approach the two things together and try to get more of a margin for error by training harder (however I do that) and let it feed into my trad climbing (trying not to take the easy options each time i get out).
In reply to JonC:
I'm in a relatively similar position to you - plenty of experience, a few E1s here and there (maybe 9 last year), don't often second routes that are too hard for me to lead, often don't get on the routes I really want/ought to be climbing.
I can't sport climb for toffee, and whenever I go indoors I fall off everything from being too pumped. But I have been bouldering a fair bit over the last couple of winters, and can often get up English 6a without too much trouble (although I still get shut down by some 5b moves if they involve heinous slopers or smeary nonsense). And I don't feel like I'm much stronger for bouldering, just technically better and with a better idea of what is actually physically possible for me.
I also want to get on a few E2s this year, but the fact that I've never been on anything harder than that is a bit of a psychological obstacle. Reading the comments above about sport climbing, I think it really depends on the route. If you prefer slabbier things, then it's difficult to compare a slabby E2 to any F6b that you're likely to encounter in this country I'd have thought? I'm certain I'd fall off 99% of UK (certainly Peak/Yorkshire) F6bs onsight through, but I think I stand a reasonable chance of getting a 5c non-pumpy crux onsight. So I wouldn't necessarily get too hung up about your perceived disparity in sports and trad grades.
I can't help you with actually getting on things though. Find a climbing partner who's good at bullying you into doing things you don't want to? This can work, but only if they have a good understanding of what you can actually do, otherwise it could lead to a whole world of unpleasantness!
I'm in a relatively similar position to you - plenty of experience, a few E1s here and there (maybe 9 last year), don't often second routes that are too hard for me to lead, often don't get on the routes I really want/ought to be climbing.
I can't sport climb for toffee, and whenever I go indoors I fall off everything from being too pumped. But I have been bouldering a fair bit over the last couple of winters, and can often get up English 6a without too much trouble (although I still get shut down by some 5b moves if they involve heinous slopers or smeary nonsense). And I don't feel like I'm much stronger for bouldering, just technically better and with a better idea of what is actually physically possible for me.
I also want to get on a few E2s this year, but the fact that I've never been on anything harder than that is a bit of a psychological obstacle. Reading the comments above about sport climbing, I think it really depends on the route. If you prefer slabbier things, then it's difficult to compare a slabby E2 to any F6b that you're likely to encounter in this country I'd have thought? I'm certain I'd fall off 99% of UK (certainly Peak/Yorkshire) F6bs onsight through, but I think I stand a reasonable chance of getting a 5c non-pumpy crux onsight. So I wouldn't necessarily get too hung up about your perceived disparity in sports and trad grades.
I can't help you with actually getting on things though. Find a climbing partner who's good at bullying you into doing things you don't want to? This can work, but only if they have a good understanding of what you can actually do, otherwise it could lead to a whole world of unpleasantness!
In reply to JonC:
Intimidated by a mega-classic E2 that you want to on-sight? Perhaps get on a short, possibly even scrappy E2, by safe E2 that you don't mind failing on. Once you're on it, you may well get psyched and push through the difficulties. If you are near the Peak District, there are lots of E2s that could fit the bill, although they may mostly be steep.
As someone else said, if you on-sighted Grim Wall Direct, you probably don't need much more to climb your first E2
> ... but I have no real frame of reference and can't make myself get on it.
Intimidated by a mega-classic E2 that you want to on-sight? Perhaps get on a short, possibly even scrappy E2, by safe E2 that you don't mind failing on. Once you're on it, you may well get psyched and push through the difficulties. If you are near the Peak District, there are lots of E2s that could fit the bill, although they may mostly be steep.
As someone else said, if you on-sighted Grim Wall Direct, you probably don't need much more to climb your first E2
In reply to JonC:
You need a different peer group. You can go bouldering and do structured training micro/macro/mondocycles all you want, but if everyone around you thinks that E1 is hard and that E2 is the living end then you will progress really, really slowly.
You need climbing partners who warm up on E1s, not VDiffs.
> My climbing partners don't lead harder than me so I don't get out on harder ground to see how it feels.
You need a different peer group. You can go bouldering and do structured training micro/macro/mondocycles all you want, but if everyone around you thinks that E1 is hard and that E2 is the living end then you will progress really, really slowly.
You need climbing partners who warm up on E1s, not VDiffs.
In reply to TimB:
Or maybe crap climbers like to congregate
I hear what you are saying and I agree that is one solution - but I like who I climb with on a regular basis and that's probably more important to me given I have only limited time to climb (ie. I don't want to ditch old climbing partners for new hotshots on a regular basis). Hence why I was wondering about some one off sessions with someone better, to (hopefully) open my eyes a bit and convince myself it's not all black magic.
> if everyone around you thinks that E1 is hard and that E2 is the living end then you will progress really, really slowly.
> You need climbing partners who warm up on E1s, not VDiffs.
Or maybe crap climbers like to congregate
I hear what you are saying and I agree that is one solution - but I like who I climb with on a regular basis and that's probably more important to me given I have only limited time to climb (ie. I don't want to ditch old climbing partners for new hotshots on a regular basis). Hence why I was wondering about some one off sessions with someone better, to (hopefully) open my eyes a bit and convince myself it's not all black magic.
In reply to JonC:
'The other way is to get someone to drag me up some harder stuff. The only problem is that when I did that years ago (when a relative newbie), I actually found it more scary than leading as I wasn't in control and it didn't feel 'safe'. At least when I lead I'm sort of in control of the situation and feel ok by and large. I'm not sure if it would be a problem now or not; might depend who the person was.
Or top rope / shunt some harder stuff to get a feel for it. If you want to the progression could be to then lead stuff you've top roped and then try stuff on lead you haven't top roped.
'The other way is to get someone to drag me up some harder stuff. The only problem is that when I did that years ago (when a relative newbie), I actually found it more scary than leading as I wasn't in control and it didn't feel 'safe'. At least when I lead I'm sort of in control of the situation and feel ok by and large. I'm not sure if it would be a problem now or not; might depend who the person was.
Or top rope / shunt some harder stuff to get a feel for it. If you want to the progression could be to then lead stuff you've top roped and then try stuff on lead you haven't top roped.
In reply to JonC:
Fair enough. The greatest benefit to climbing with people a lot better than you is how your expectations change (I'm talking from experience by the way, many years ago when I changed universities to do post-grad stuff I went from being one of the only ones who lead E1/E2 to going out climbing with guys who did E5s without any fuss)
But, the secondary benefit to being out with people like that is the exposure to what harder routes are really like. You can do as Exile suggested and get that experience by toproping.
Obviously don't do anything daft like chucking a rope down anything with a relatively high adjectival grade - trying to toprope E3 6bs or E4 6cs is not going to help, but pick a few routes to 'sacrifice'. Instead of saving them for some hypothetical onsight, just get on some harder stuff.
You'll either find that E3s feel utterly, bewilderingly desperate, in which case E1s and E2s will suddenly feel a lot easier, or you'll find that the climbing on them is actually alright, which should give you confidence to push your limits.
Fair enough. The greatest benefit to climbing with people a lot better than you is how your expectations change (I'm talking from experience by the way, many years ago when I changed universities to do post-grad stuff I went from being one of the only ones who lead E1/E2 to going out climbing with guys who did E5s without any fuss)
But, the secondary benefit to being out with people like that is the exposure to what harder routes are really like. You can do as Exile suggested and get that experience by toproping.
Obviously don't do anything daft like chucking a rope down anything with a relatively high adjectival grade - trying to toprope E3 6bs or E4 6cs is not going to help, but pick a few routes to 'sacrifice'. Instead of saving them for some hypothetical onsight, just get on some harder stuff.
You'll either find that E3s feel utterly, bewilderingly desperate, in which case E1s and E2s will suddenly feel a lot easier, or you'll find that the climbing on them is actually alright, which should give you confidence to push your limits.
In reply to TimB:
By the way, redpointing on sports routes is an enormously useful exercise.
The magic of finding moves go from completely untouchable to doing them every time is quite amazing, and makes easier moves all seem, well, easier.
If you can onsight 6b then you should be able to redpoint 6c in a session and 7a over a few days (according to Jibé!).
By the way, redpointing on sports routes is an enormously useful exercise.
The magic of finding moves go from completely untouchable to doing them every time is quite amazing, and makes easier moves all seem, well, easier.
If you can onsight 6b then you should be able to redpoint 6c in a session and 7a over a few days (according to Jibé!).
In reply to TimB:
The problem is that I think I am actually a very good onsighter and I am not sure I could even do 6c (well, I can't at the moment as I literally can't do the moves) and certainly not 7a.
> If you can onsight 6b then you should be able to redpoint 6c in a session and 7a over a few days (according to Jibé!).
The problem is that I think I am actually a very good onsighter and I am not sure I could even do 6c (well, I can't at the moment as I literally can't do the moves) and certainly not 7a.
In reply to JonC:
Have you ever actually tried a F7a to see what it was like, and why you couldn't do it? I'm sure you could get up one, if you had a go. It's amazing how much easier a route feels if you've worked it a little bit. I'm no redpointing expert by any means (my sieges are measured in hours, not days) but just having a practice, running through the moves in your head and so on turns the desperate into a cruise surprisingly quickly.
A friend of mine decided to try and fail on a route every time he went climbing this year. This forced him to get on harder things, and some of the time he didn't fail - result!
Honestly, from what you've said here, you'd probably be okay if you left it a few months and went when you were climbing well. If it's a struggle... well that's good, surely? It was a real struggle for me too and that's why I remember it. If you want to know how you'd fare on E2s, get on some and find out. I do know this is easier said than done, it is hard but it's worth it when you make the effort. Hard to do all the time tho, some days I'm keen and some days I have no psyche for climbing anywhere near my limit. So I have to play it by ear. We're humans, not machines.
It does sound like some bouldering and possibly new partners might help. Even if you climb with your favourite partner, if you have other people along with you who climb harder then that can rub off.
> it's not like I've become a f7a climber and I don't think I ever will.
Have you ever actually tried a F7a to see what it was like, and why you couldn't do it? I'm sure you could get up one, if you had a go. It's amazing how much easier a route feels if you've worked it a little bit. I'm no redpointing expert by any means (my sieges are measured in hours, not days) but just having a practice, running through the moves in your head and so on turns the desperate into a cruise surprisingly quickly.
A friend of mine decided to try and fail on a route every time he went climbing this year. This forced him to get on harder things, and some of the time he didn't fail - result!
> However, I just look at something like Vector and wonder how I'd fare and have no idea. I am sure it would be a real struggle and would be at the limit of my current ability, but I have no real frame of reference and can't make myself get on it.
Honestly, from what you've said here, you'd probably be okay if you left it a few months and went when you were climbing well. If it's a struggle... well that's good, surely? It was a real struggle for me too and that's why I remember it. If you want to know how you'd fare on E2s, get on some and find out. I do know this is easier said than done, it is hard but it's worth it when you make the effort. Hard to do all the time tho, some days I'm keen and some days I have no psyche for climbing anywhere near my limit. So I have to play it by ear. We're humans, not machines.
It does sound like some bouldering and possibly new partners might help. Even if you climb with your favourite partner, if you have other people along with you who climb harder then that can rub off.
In reply to JonC:
I think you need to be more positive. Almost everything you've said during this thread has a negative slant on it - can't this that and the other.
You can.
I think you need to be more positive. Almost everything you've said during this thread has a negative slant on it - can't this that and the other.
You can.
In reply to JonC:
I agree with loads of the excellent advice on here. Bouldering comes up time and time again...because it's the key.
I improved when I started I bouldering outdoors and indoors in winter. Bouldering indoors is a very quick way to gain strength. Bouldering outdoors is how you learn to do technically hard moves. Personally I think redpointing is significantly less useful (certainly here in the Peak) because it only trains power endurance for pulling up overhanging rock on horrible, obvious, polished limestone holds. When you're faced with an unfathomable 5c crux above a ledge, that power endurance isn't going to help much.
Having a bit of strength in reserve is a massive confidence boost - it'll do wonders for your head (although I still have trouble committing on nearly every route). Really knowing what crap holds are like (because you're climbing 6b moves on boulders - that's only V4 so not massive project to achieve) will make the holds on routes seem quite good.
When I started bouldering I went from climbing VS/HVS and the occasional soft E1 to working through proper E1s and easy E2s to eventually harder E2s. But despite bouldering V6 regularly, I still fail on hard (grit) E2s because they're unfathomable and totally nails. On other rock types it's easier to progress I think.
I personally don't enjoy redpointing, so it seems a bit hypocritical to say that you 'should' or 'can' or 'will' enjoy bouldering. But bouldering doesn't have to involve slapping a whole bag of chalk onto 3 holds a foot off the ground and yelling 'don't be so gay, send it dude' to your mate at the top of your voice (I appreciate you already know this) and then falling off said 3 holds all day until you go home. For me, pottering round my favourite bouldering circuits at places like Slipstones or Burbage North where the the routes are short and limited but the bouldering superb is one of the most enjoyable forms of climbing - especially when it's too cold to be belaying. On gritstone especially, the improbable moves you can achieve bouldering are a buzz - and plenty of problems are high enough to have a bit of a trad-like buzz to them, without being dangerous (my favourite kind).
In a day's trad climbing, you do so few hard moves that it's pretty much impossible to gain anything other than experience. In bouldering, you gain strength and technique comparatively rapidly. In redpointing, you gain power endurance rapidly. My personal guess is that bouldering and trad climbing will get most people to climbing the classic E2s you mention. After that, a bit of redpointing might help as routes could have longer sections of hard climbing. Bit of a silly guess, but a reflection of my experience.
I agree with loads of the excellent advice on here. Bouldering comes up time and time again...because it's the key.
I improved when I started I bouldering outdoors and indoors in winter. Bouldering indoors is a very quick way to gain strength. Bouldering outdoors is how you learn to do technically hard moves. Personally I think redpointing is significantly less useful (certainly here in the Peak) because it only trains power endurance for pulling up overhanging rock on horrible, obvious, polished limestone holds. When you're faced with an unfathomable 5c crux above a ledge, that power endurance isn't going to help much.
Having a bit of strength in reserve is a massive confidence boost - it'll do wonders for your head (although I still have trouble committing on nearly every route). Really knowing what crap holds are like (because you're climbing 6b moves on boulders - that's only V4 so not massive project to achieve) will make the holds on routes seem quite good.
When I started bouldering I went from climbing VS/HVS and the occasional soft E1 to working through proper E1s and easy E2s to eventually harder E2s. But despite bouldering V6 regularly, I still fail on hard (grit) E2s because they're unfathomable and totally nails. On other rock types it's easier to progress I think.
I personally don't enjoy redpointing, so it seems a bit hypocritical to say that you 'should' or 'can' or 'will' enjoy bouldering. But bouldering doesn't have to involve slapping a whole bag of chalk onto 3 holds a foot off the ground and yelling 'don't be so gay, send it dude' to your mate at the top of your voice (I appreciate you already know this) and then falling off said 3 holds all day until you go home. For me, pottering round my favourite bouldering circuits at places like Slipstones or Burbage North where the the routes are short and limited but the bouldering superb is one of the most enjoyable forms of climbing - especially when it's too cold to be belaying. On gritstone especially, the improbable moves you can achieve bouldering are a buzz - and plenty of problems are high enough to have a bit of a trad-like buzz to them, without being dangerous (my favourite kind).
In a day's trad climbing, you do so few hard moves that it's pretty much impossible to gain anything other than experience. In bouldering, you gain strength and technique comparatively rapidly. In redpointing, you gain power endurance rapidly. My personal guess is that bouldering and trad climbing will get most people to climbing the classic E2s you mention. After that, a bit of redpointing might help as routes could have longer sections of hard climbing. Bit of a silly guess, but a reflection of my experience.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Tend to agree except that I think redpointing is very beneficial - not just for the power endurance, but for the recovery ability. I found sport climbing last summer incredibly beneficial when Igot back on trad (particularly limestone) because I suddenly realised that almost all the holds were bigger than the ones that constituted the bets rest on the 7b I'd been working a few weeks before...after this it became so much easier to do a move, relax, shake out and recover, whereas previously I'd have been getting pumped the whole time. This is what made harder E2s possible for me. It's both a physical and a mental development.
Tend to agree except that I think redpointing is very beneficial - not just for the power endurance, but for the recovery ability. I found sport climbing last summer incredibly beneficial when Igot back on trad (particularly limestone) because I suddenly realised that almost all the holds were bigger than the ones that constituted the bets rest on the 7b I'd been working a few weeks before...after this it became so much easier to do a move, relax, shake out and recover, whereas previously I'd have been getting pumped the whole time. This is what made harder E2s possible for me. It's both a physical and a mental development.
In reply to Si dH:
Oh, an I have to say, that I think the OPs stated aim of learning to climb trad closer to his physical limit, rather than increasing his physical limit, is almost unachievable. This may be a negative sounding view, but the fact is that onsighting a trad route is much more demanding, both mentally and physically, than climbing a sport or indoor rout of the same french grade. If he wantsto lead classic big E2s (not just the easier grit ones) then he will never get there while his sport onsight grade is only 6b. He needs to get fitter. The only people who claim to have done this, are the old guys who did it before sport climbing was popular and well-bolted.
Oh, an I have to say, that I think the OPs stated aim of learning to climb trad closer to his physical limit, rather than increasing his physical limit, is almost unachievable. This may be a negative sounding view, but the fact is that onsighting a trad route is much more demanding, both mentally and physically, than climbing a sport or indoor rout of the same french grade. If he wantsto lead classic big E2s (not just the easier grit ones) then he will never get there while his sport onsight grade is only 6b. He needs to get fitter. The only people who claim to have done this, are the old guys who did it before sport climbing was popular and well-bolted.
In reply to Si dH:
I'm sure you're right, and I'll be doing as much sport as I can hack this summer (which isn't much, but I'll try to redpoint a handful of routes in Cheedale). Personally, I don't tend to fail from pumping out, it's usually failure to do the move right or inability to commit - which might be why I don't go for redpointing as much as a way to improve trad.
I'm sure you're right, and I'll be doing as much sport as I can hack this summer (which isn't much, but I'll try to redpoint a handful of routes in Cheedale). Personally, I don't tend to fail from pumping out, it's usually failure to do the move right or inability to commit - which might be why I don't go for redpointing as much as a way to improve trad.
In reply to JonC:
I reckon that I'm about a 6a+ sports climber, so can relate to your aims. I feel that with your sports and indoor ability, you should be able to have a good go at any trad 5c. Look for E2 5c routes that are well-protected.
I think that you would lead Left Wall OK, and could do so with a weaker partner. It's well-protected, so there's no problem if you do fluff a move, or run out of steam.
Vector is more committing, with retreat more difficult. I found the crux to be on the third pitch (it felt 5c to me), and was glad that on that occasion my second could have taken over if necessary.
Good Luck!
I reckon that I'm about a 6a+ sports climber, so can relate to your aims. I feel that with your sports and indoor ability, you should be able to have a good go at any trad 5c. Look for E2 5c routes that are well-protected.
I think that you would lead Left Wall OK, and could do so with a weaker partner. It's well-protected, so there's no problem if you do fluff a move, or run out of steam.
Vector is more committing, with retreat more difficult. I found the crux to be on the third pitch (it felt 5c to me), and was glad that on that occasion my second could have taken over if necessary.
Good Luck!
In reply to Calder:
I do think that's a little unfair; it's partly because I do underplay certain things. However, I agree that I need to have more self belief and get on routes at my limit more regularly (to consolidate if nothing else). I'm actually feeling pretty positive as I have come out of the winter season on a bit of a roll (my training such as it is has helped) and I am trying to figure out how to push on to where I want to get to before I'm really past it
> I think you need to be more positive. Almost everything you've said during this thread has a negative slant on it
I do think that's a little unfair; it's partly because I do underplay certain things. However, I agree that I need to have more self belief and get on routes at my limit more regularly (to consolidate if nothing else). I'm actually feeling pretty positive as I have come out of the winter season on a bit of a roll (my training such as it is has helped) and I am trying to figure out how to push on to where I want to get to before I'm really past it
In reply to JonC:
You could really surprise yourself if you go redpointing with someone who is clued in. I took someone the other day whose hardest sport climb was 6c (not onsight or flash) and with the right approach he top roped 7b in two sections and in his second session came close to leading it. You think you can't do the moves but you probably can.
> The problem is that I think I am actually a very good onsighter and I am not sure I could even do 6c (well, I can't at the moment as I literally can't do the moves) and certainly not 7a.
You could really surprise yourself if you go redpointing with someone who is clued in. I took someone the other day whose hardest sport climb was 6c (not onsight or flash) and with the right approach he top roped 7b in two sections and in his second session came close to leading it. You think you can't do the moves but you probably can.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
The thing is though, in redpointing you get used to climbing absolutely flat out and get more comfortable climbing without holding back, with more potential to transfer back to trad on good gear.
>
> Personally, I don't tend to fail from pumping out, it's usually failure to do the move right or inability to commit - which might be why I don't go for redpointing as much as a way to improve trad.
> Personally, I don't tend to fail from pumping out, it's usually failure to do the move right or inability to commit - which might be why I don't go for redpointing as much as a way to improve trad.
The thing is though, in redpointing you get used to climbing absolutely flat out and get more comfortable climbing without holding back, with more potential to transfer back to trad on good gear.
In reply to Andy Hemsted:
Thanks; that's really helpful. All of my previous E2's were of the 5b variety, either for being bold or sustained. I think I have a bit of a mental block about 5c. I need to get a few more full on E1 5b's under my belt in the next few weeks to consolidate and then look at a well protected 5c I guess.
Funnily I thought that Vector might be the more amenable of the two but I see your point.
Thanks; that's really helpful. All of my previous E2's were of the 5b variety, either for being bold or sustained. I think I have a bit of a mental block about 5c. I need to get a few more full on E1 5b's under my belt in the next few weeks to consolidate and then look at a well protected 5c I guess.
Funnily I thought that Vector might be the more amenable of the two but I see your point.
In reply to Jon Stewart and Sid H:
Thanks guys. I'm reading all of this with considerable interest. I've tried various approaches in the past but I've genuinely made some small steps forward in my sports climbing in the last year which have clearly translated into an easier ride into the E's this time around. The problem, as identified, is that I probably am not yet quite fit/strong enough for my objectives and need to find realistic ways that I can get there. Even relatively small improvements gained via bouldering/sports should add up to something meaningful in trad terms and may tip the balance. I'll have a good think about how to go about this. Coupled with a more positive approach and actually getting on the right routes I do think I can get there.
Thanks guys. I'm reading all of this with considerable interest. I've tried various approaches in the past but I've genuinely made some small steps forward in my sports climbing in the last year which have clearly translated into an easier ride into the E's this time around. The problem, as identified, is that I probably am not yet quite fit/strong enough for my objectives and need to find realistic ways that I can get there. Even relatively small improvements gained via bouldering/sports should add up to something meaningful in trad terms and may tip the balance. I'll have a good think about how to go about this. Coupled with a more positive approach and actually getting on the right routes I do think I can get there.
In reply to JonC:
Find safe E2, dog it, headpoint it, get your arse up the f*cker somehow. Repeat as often as necessary.
Ditch your present mates and find some new ones who climb harder.
These two steps will cause 95% of climbers to climb a good deal harder than they presently do really quite quickly. It's a matter of will.
jcm
Find safe E2, dog it, headpoint it, get your arse up the f*cker somehow. Repeat as often as necessary.
Ditch your present mates and find some new ones who climb harder.
These two steps will cause 95% of climbers to climb a good deal harder than they presently do really quite quickly. It's a matter of will.
jcm
In reply to Jon Stewart:
>Bouldering comes up time and time again...because it's the key.
Nonsense. The 'key' is to appreciate that what the OP wants to achieve is basically easy but involves one or two uncomfortable steps and a certain amount of will.
If you want to do it, get on and do it. If you don't, stop wasting our time. There is no 'key'. Life is not like that.
jcm
>Bouldering comes up time and time again...because it's the key.
Nonsense. The 'key' is to appreciate that what the OP wants to achieve is basically easy but involves one or two uncomfortable steps and a certain amount of will.
If you want to do it, get on and do it. If you don't, stop wasting our time. There is no 'key'. Life is not like that.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I know you can make it a simple thing and to an extent it is. There are some E2's I could do right now; I'm sure. I don't doubt myself that much. If I reverted to my old preferred style of route I would just need to man up and get on them. I suppose the real issue is that I was never happy on steep E1's even and I need to get comfortable on those and then into the classic big E2's. I think Left Wall is a great example of something I really want to do but I really think I would stuff it up if I just lept on it now. I'm probably just a grade short in trad terms. I haven't yet truly connected my sports climbing and trad. How to bridge the gap and give myself a little more leeway is the question.
I know you can make it a simple thing and to an extent it is. There are some E2's I could do right now; I'm sure. I don't doubt myself that much. If I reverted to my old preferred style of route I would just need to man up and get on them. I suppose the real issue is that I was never happy on steep E1's even and I need to get comfortable on those and then into the classic big E2's. I think Left Wall is a great example of something I really want to do but I really think I would stuff it up if I just lept on it now. I'm probably just a grade short in trad terms. I haven't yet truly connected my sports climbing and trad. How to bridge the gap and give myself a little more leeway is the question.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Please, HVS is my default grade. Give me some credit...
> Fine. VS it is, then.
Please, HVS is my default grade. Give me some credit...
In reply to JonC: I know a lot of people have said boulder for strength, but I'd be very cautious about this. If you are going to push yourself bouldering, you will inevitably have to fall off a lot (if you on-sight flash every problem, the problems you are trying are to easy). The risk is that one unlucky landing can result in injury and at 46 that takes a long time to recover from. Added to that there is the chance of over straining muscles etc. I reckon that if you want strength you are probably better off working hard sports routes with a nice safe bounce on the rope when you fall.
However, I think the most valuble thing to do at E1 - E3 is to work on your stamina. Get used to climbing with a pump - do reps on pumpy route that are close to your limit, preferably on the lead to get happy about clipping when pumped, but obviously choose a safe route (sport or indoors probably).The other thing you need to do is get in plenty of falling practise, (read Dave MacCloud's 9 out of 10 climbers... for inspiration and more ideas).
However, I think the most valuble thing to do at E1 - E3 is to work on your stamina. Get used to climbing with a pump - do reps on pumpy route that are close to your limit, preferably on the lead to get happy about clipping when pumped, but obviously choose a safe route (sport or indoors probably).The other thing you need to do is get in plenty of falling practise, (read Dave MacCloud's 9 out of 10 climbers... for inspiration and more ideas).
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Thanks for a different perspective - but not for giving me an easy way out
And for noticing my age (almost now out of date). But, yes, that was hidden a little in my OP. I went through a real spate of inures in my late 30's and found a way to control it latterly. Static, precise climbing, not over-training and (yes) training mostly by leading sports. I suspect that's held me back in some ways but at least meant that I have been able to climb pretty much uninterupted the last 5 years or so.
I do have 9 out opf 10 but found it a bit of a dull read to be honest (sorry Dave).
I think I 'could' get to where I want to be by just trying harder on sports routes (indoors primarily for training purposes) by red pointing and simply working cruxes on routes I can't currently do. I think part of the problem is that, due to injury, I have become quite conservative about how I climb and I rarely push myself to my absolute limit (other than when the pump sets in). It's maybe a question of finding a way to do that without being too aggressive and picking up an injury. Perhaps doing laps for stamina would make a difference. However, I do still think I lack outright power for hard cruxes.
Thanks for a different perspective - but not for giving me an easy way out
And for noticing my age (almost now out of date). But, yes, that was hidden a little in my OP. I went through a real spate of inures in my late 30's and found a way to control it latterly. Static, precise climbing, not over-training and (yes) training mostly by leading sports. I suspect that's held me back in some ways but at least meant that I have been able to climb pretty much uninterupted the last 5 years or so.
I do have 9 out opf 10 but found it a bit of a dull read to be honest (sorry Dave).
I think I 'could' get to where I want to be by just trying harder on sports routes (indoors primarily for training purposes) by red pointing and simply working cruxes on routes I can't currently do. I think part of the problem is that, due to injury, I have become quite conservative about how I climb and I rarely push myself to my absolute limit (other than when the pump sets in). It's maybe a question of finding a way to do that without being too aggressive and picking up an injury. Perhaps doing laps for stamina would make a difference. However, I do still think I lack outright power for hard cruxes.
In reply to JonC:
I'm just going to contradict those saying do sport. Last summer I got what I'd consider good at trad, relative to my climbing ability, actually managing stuff near my climbing limit. The way to do it? Get out and climb hard (for you) trad. Just trad, and stacks of it. Try stuff you might fall off, fall off and try again. Keep going. This got me the fittest I think I've ever been too.
I reckon climbing sport will get you better at climbing and I plan to try and do that this year cause I've managed to climb (o/s) equal on sport and trad and real close to my RP limit (ie in order to get better at trad I now need to get better at climbing full stop). What it won't do is get you used to pushing yourself on your own gear, placing it and trusting it. If you're anything like me then doing lots of sport will just train your mind to know that bolts are bomber and won't do anything for your trad climbing (except of course it'll make you better at climbing if you do lots of it).
Of course if you just get good enough to climb f7b then it'll help being able to do E2s cause they're (relatively) very easy but this doesn't mean you've improved at climbing onsight at your limit.
PS - what also really *really* helped was climbing with a good partner psyched for trying hard stuff...
I'm just going to contradict those saying do sport. Last summer I got what I'd consider good at trad, relative to my climbing ability, actually managing stuff near my climbing limit. The way to do it? Get out and climb hard (for you) trad. Just trad, and stacks of it. Try stuff you might fall off, fall off and try again. Keep going. This got me the fittest I think I've ever been too.
I reckon climbing sport will get you better at climbing and I plan to try and do that this year cause I've managed to climb (o/s) equal on sport and trad and real close to my RP limit (ie in order to get better at trad I now need to get better at climbing full stop). What it won't do is get you used to pushing yourself on your own gear, placing it and trusting it. If you're anything like me then doing lots of sport will just train your mind to know that bolts are bomber and won't do anything for your trad climbing (except of course it'll make you better at climbing if you do lots of it).
Of course if you just get good enough to climb f7b then it'll help being able to do E2s cause they're (relatively) very easy but this doesn't mean you've improved at climbing onsight at your limit.
PS - what also really *really* helped was climbing with a good partner psyched for trying hard stuff...
In reply to JonC:
Bouldering and fingerboarding to get the power you need - definitely a good idea.
But seconding harder trad climbs is very good as well. Once you can second E3 regularly, and try bloody hard doing it, E1 will feel much more accessible. Specific training works. But if you are weak, boulder to get strong, then build up the endurance by getting out regularly.
If its power you lack, dip into 9 out of 10 again, and get inspired for fingerboarding! A ten minute session every day doing deadhangs and pullups on a doorframe will bring you power quickly. And that translates very well into higher grades. Once you have power, self belief will move you through the grades.
Bouldering and fingerboarding to get the power you need - definitely a good idea.
But seconding harder trad climbs is very good as well. Once you can second E3 regularly, and try bloody hard doing it, E1 will feel much more accessible. Specific training works. But if you are weak, boulder to get strong, then build up the endurance by getting out regularly.
If its power you lack, dip into 9 out of 10 again, and get inspired for fingerboarding! A ten minute session every day doing deadhangs and pullups on a doorframe will bring you power quickly. And that translates very well into higher grades. Once you have power, self belief will move you through the grades.
In reply to thomasadixon:
I don't think I have a problem trusting gear or running it out when required. To be honest, I was extending runners too far on GWD to the extent one onlooker asked if I liked soloing. I do have a mental issue about decking on short routes (eg, grit) nowadays but generally I climb multi pitch in Wales/Lakes now.
I agree re a partner - and happily my long standing partner is really psyched now and starting to give me some healthy competition. That's probably enough to spur me on in a competitive way.
Maybe an age/work thing, but I have relied upon the gym to keep me fit whilst running a business. However, I've been forced to cut that down recently and I feel less tired physically and seem to be climbing a little better so wonder if I was over-doing it (only 3 gyn sessions a week but also 2 wall during the winter). Wondering if less gym to cut down on fatigue and focus indoor training (some bouldering/redpointing/laps) might be the answer at least in terms of giving me more leeway for when i get oustide.
I don't think I have a problem trusting gear or running it out when required. To be honest, I was extending runners too far on GWD to the extent one onlooker asked if I liked soloing. I do have a mental issue about decking on short routes (eg, grit) nowadays but generally I climb multi pitch in Wales/Lakes now.
I agree re a partner - and happily my long standing partner is really psyched now and starting to give me some healthy competition. That's probably enough to spur me on in a competitive way.
Maybe an age/work thing, but I have relied upon the gym to keep me fit whilst running a business. However, I've been forced to cut that down recently and I feel less tired physically and seem to be climbing a little better so wonder if I was over-doing it (only 3 gyn sessions a week but also 2 wall during the winter). Wondering if less gym to cut down on fatigue and focus indoor training (some bouldering/redpointing/laps) might be the answer at least in terms of giving me more leeway for when i get oustide.
In reply to JonC:
As a bit of an old git with limited ability and nerve, here's my two penn'orth:
Think back to the days before sport climbing and significant amounts of indooor stuff - what did we (I?) do? Answer: odd bits of bouldering (no names, guidebooks or grades - just little problems), low-level traverses across slabs & walls and (shock, horror) top-roping. Not top-roping with a view to getting a route by rote so I can "lead" it afterwards, but with a view to developing the technique and confidence to tackle a route of similar grade and character. Example from my own experience: top-roping Eclair on Lawrencefield (VS, almost HVS in the 1970s) before leading the adjacent Meringue (easier end of VS but naff-all protection in the days before cams).
Yes, it's a conservative approach and it lacks the gung-ho encouraged by modern gear and/or short run-outs but it kept me out of hospital. It took pushing my grade while solo-ing to put me there :-}
As a bit of an old git with limited ability and nerve, here's my two penn'orth:
Think back to the days before sport climbing and significant amounts of indooor stuff - what did we (I?) do? Answer: odd bits of bouldering (no names, guidebooks or grades - just little problems), low-level traverses across slabs & walls and (shock, horror) top-roping. Not top-roping with a view to getting a route by rote so I can "lead" it afterwards, but with a view to developing the technique and confidence to tackle a route of similar grade and character. Example from my own experience: top-roping Eclair on Lawrencefield (VS, almost HVS in the 1970s) before leading the adjacent Meringue (easier end of VS but naff-all protection in the days before cams).
Yes, it's a conservative approach and it lacks the gung-ho encouraged by modern gear and/or short run-outs but it kept me out of hospital. It took pushing my grade while solo-ing to put me there :-}
From reading this thread it really sounds to me that what's holding you back is inside your head, and no amount of training/sport/bouldering will have a huge effect until you sort that out. You mentioned going to the gym and top roping to get strong - there is absolutely no need to top rope in the gym, as long as you have a decent belayer (soft catches all round please) you can push to your limits and fall off hard routes all day long. That way you learn not only the moves, but the mental side of pushing hard grades (albeit in a safe environment). By top roping, you're missing *at least* half the available value of the session, probably substantially more than half.
Redpointing some routes way above your current grade would probably be very beneficial - it should help you to realise you're being limited by your own imagination.
Unfortunately, your imagination is also limited by the people around you - dropping the people who hold you back sounds harsh, but you're asking for advice, and the best advice that's been handed out several times on this thread is climb with people who climb hard - it works. The first time I told my climbing mates that I was going to climb F7b (I was climbing up to about F6b+/6c at the time) they laughed at me - so I went and found climbing partners who didn't laugh, and instead offered advice on how to do it.
I second reading 9 out of 10 climbers - very good book.
Redpointing some routes way above your current grade would probably be very beneficial - it should help you to realise you're being limited by your own imagination.
Unfortunately, your imagination is also limited by the people around you - dropping the people who hold you back sounds harsh, but you're asking for advice, and the best advice that's been handed out several times on this thread is climb with people who climb hard - it works. The first time I told my climbing mates that I was going to climb F7b (I was climbing up to about F6b+/6c at the time) they laughed at me - so I went and found climbing partners who didn't laugh, and instead offered advice on how to do it.
I second reading 9 out of 10 climbers - very good book.
In reply to Ciro:
I think you misunderstood me about TR'ing at the indoor wall. I rarely do it and I do lead pretty much at my limit (though I think I don't push myself quite hard enough). But I do think TRing lets you climb that little bit harder. I probably only climb on TR about 15% of my time at the wall nowadays. When I climbed a lot more on TR at the wall I was undeniably stronger. if I can retain my lead head but get back some of my outright strength then I might be on to something.
But generally I accept most of the (constructive) criticism. The one thing I am not really planning to do is change my friends (who are my climbing partners). There are kess drastic ways to get experience of harder routes.
I think you misunderstood me about TR'ing at the indoor wall. I rarely do it and I do lead pretty much at my limit (though I think I don't push myself quite hard enough). But I do think TRing lets you climb that little bit harder. I probably only climb on TR about 15% of my time at the wall nowadays. When I climbed a lot more on TR at the wall I was undeniably stronger. if I can retain my lead head but get back some of my outright strength then I might be on to something.
But generally I accept most of the (constructive) criticism. The one thing I am not really planning to do is change my friends (who are my climbing partners). There are kess drastic ways to get experience of harder routes.
An observation is that there are a small number of people who have responded to this thread who appear to lead trad only a bit harder than myself but really can climb 7a sports or thereabouts.
I have no problem with taking lessons from anyone at any level, but I think the people in the above category should ask themselves why they aren't leading far harder trad grades. My problem is rather different I think.
I have no problem with taking lessons from anyone at any level, but I think the people in the above category should ask themselves why they aren't leading far harder trad grades. My problem is rather different I think.
In reply to JonC:
If that's at your limit your head's sorted then! I did find it also got me very fit though. Sport/indoors I've found I climb for little more than 5/10 minutes max (timing myself recently), trad I'd easily spend an hour on a pitch.
I'm not sure about the rest thing, and if you read up on it you get conflicting advice. When I was doing my best I climbed near enough every day, am climbing much less now (too much overtime) and feel like I need rest. Am following a (vague) training scheme though so will find out if its working soon enough.
I do understand that one thing that happens is that if you start taking more rest you get a short peak so it seems like you've improved when really you haven't long term...this is from reading though, like I said from personal experience I'm unsure.
If that's at your limit your head's sorted then! I did find it also got me very fit though. Sport/indoors I've found I climb for little more than 5/10 minutes max (timing myself recently), trad I'd easily spend an hour on a pitch.
I'm not sure about the rest thing, and if you read up on it you get conflicting advice. When I was doing my best I climbed near enough every day, am climbing much less now (too much overtime) and feel like I need rest. Am following a (vague) training scheme though so will find out if its working soon enough.
I do understand that one thing that happens is that if you start taking more rest you get a short peak so it seems like you've improved when really you haven't long term...this is from reading though, like I said from personal experience I'm unsure.
In reply to thomasadixon:
Should add you're probably right about the spare time point, had lots of free time last summer and spent most of it climbing. Can't help but help! Am working now and it's dark early so can't do it anymore sadly.
Should add you're probably right about the spare time point, had lots of free time last summer and spent most of it climbing. Can't help but help! Am working now and it's dark early so can't do it anymore sadly.
> I think you misunderstood me about TR'ing at the indoor wall. I rarely do it and I do lead pretty much at my limit (though I think I don't push myself quite hard enough).
You might have convinced me of that, if you didn't go and contradict yourself in the parentheses
>But I do think TRing lets you climb that little bit harder. I probably only climb on TR about 15% of my time at the wall nowadays. When I climbed a lot more on TR at the wall I was undeniably stronger. if I can retain my lead head but get back some of my outright strength then I might be on to something.
You can of course link harder moves together when you don't have to stop and clip, but that's what I'd consider the boulder wall was put there for. Specificity of training is good - when you're doing routes on trad you'll need to stop and do a lot more than just clipping, so my advice would be to do the hard moves on boulders, and make everything else as close to the real thing as possible.
> But generally I accept most of the (constructive) criticism.
It was most certainly intended to be constructive . It's always hard to know exactly the thinking behind a post on the net as we lose so much of the cues - you just sound a little bit negative in a lot of posts on this thread.
> The one thing I am not really planning to do is change my friends (who are my climbing partners). There are kess drastic ways to get experience of harder routes.
You don't have to change your friends, just climb with them a bit less and climb with more motivated people a little more - my old climbing partners who laughed at me are still considered good friends, I'm just more likely to meet them at the pub or down at the wall than out at a crag. If you end up climbing three grades harder than them, that'll happen anyway, you might as well just speed up the process
In reply to JonC:
I don't know if you're looking at me there, (and not in anyway upset if you were) but just to clarify where I'm coming from - I've only lead a couple of E3s so far, but my first trad climb was only four weeks ago, so in my own head at least I'm progressing quite well and have something to offer the debate - of course if I'm deluding myself you are free to ignore me
> An observation is that there are a small number of people who have responded to this thread who appear to lead trad only a bit harder than myself but really can climb 7a sports or thereabouts.
>
> I have no problem with taking lessons from anyone at any level, but I think the people in the above category should ask themselves why they aren't leading far harder trad grades. My problem is rather different I think.
>
> I have no problem with taking lessons from anyone at any level, but I think the people in the above category should ask themselves why they aren't leading far harder trad grades. My problem is rather different I think.
I don't know if you're looking at me there, (and not in anyway upset if you were) but just to clarify where I'm coming from - I've only lead a couple of E3s so far, but my first trad climb was only four weeks ago, so in my own head at least I'm progressing quite well and have something to offer the debate - of course if I'm deluding myself you are free to ignore me
> I have no problem with taking lessons from anyone at any level, but I think the people in the above category should ask themselves why they aren't leading far harder trad grades. My problem is rather different I think.
I should also point out that, your impressive trad grade in comparison to your sport grade is why it sounds to me like you can give a lot more in sport if you free your mind and go for it - if I'm wrong and you're actually pushing that close to your physical limits on trad lead, then chapeaux, sir.
In reply to Andy Hemsted:
Vector is very well protected, with a short crux section on the second pitch with good rests before & after. But Andy is right, it's an intricate line and retreat could be complicated.
Agree that the third pitch is awkward, but when I did Vector I had already done it as the finish to Weaver. Speaking of which: Weaver. Goes up the same bit of crag, is good, has a short, well protected (but rather reachy iirc) crux. And goes straight up so less issues with complex retreat. (Nimbus - without the Snake finish - is easier still and was my first E2, but is a traverse so requires a confident second)
Still, though, your best bet to gain experience/confidence is surely something single pitch that goes straight up, with easy access to the top for gear retrieval in the event of setbacks.
> (In reply to JonC)
>> Vector is more committing, with retreat more difficult. I found the crux to be on the third pitch (it felt 5c to me), and was glad that on that occasion my second could have taken over if necessary.
>
>
Vector is very well protected, with a short crux section on the second pitch with good rests before & after. But Andy is right, it's an intricate line and retreat could be complicated.
Agree that the third pitch is awkward, but when I did Vector I had already done it as the finish to Weaver. Speaking of which: Weaver. Goes up the same bit of crag, is good, has a short, well protected (but rather reachy iirc) crux. And goes straight up so less issues with complex retreat. (Nimbus - without the Snake finish - is easier still and was my first E2, but is a traverse so requires a confident second)
Still, though, your best bet to gain experience/confidence is surely something single pitch that goes straight up, with easy access to the top for gear retrieval in the event of setbacks.
In reply to JonC:
So get on some E1 5cs. There are some really good ones. Black Streak at Diabaig is one of the best routes imaginable; the E1 5c one of the Slips at Tremadog is nice.
Or seek out really soft touch E2s: Spring Bank on Gimmer is excellent and not really E2; the "E2" next to Pocket Symphony on Beeston is way easier than Pocket Symphony.
>
> All of my previous E2's were of the 5b variety, either for being bold or sustained. I think I have a bit of a mental block about 5c.
> All of my previous E2's were of the 5b variety, either for being bold or sustained. I think I have a bit of a mental block about 5c.
So get on some E1 5cs. There are some really good ones. Black Streak at Diabaig is one of the best routes imaginable; the E1 5c one of the Slips at Tremadog is nice.
Or seek out really soft touch E2s: Spring Bank on Gimmer is excellent and not really E2; the "E2" next to Pocket Symphony on Beeston is way easier than Pocket Symphony.
In reply to JonC:
Not that I've been contributing much, but my difference between sport and trad grades is because I have done maybe 10 trad routes spread widely over a year or so since going from about 6b onsight to 6c onsighting lots with forays above. Easily explicable and easily remedied.
I wonder why you're keen to deflect interest away from yourself, having started the thread - its worth asking yourself if it's just that you don't like the actions that the 7a sport leaders are telling you you need to do? Thats probabjly a sign you know theyre right Change is always uncomfortable after all and being resistant to it is perfectly natural.
My advice, for what it's worth, would have been the same 2 years ago when I was climbing E1 and the odd E2 and about Fr6b. get out there and try harder moves on both sport and trad. The fact your grades are so close together for sport and trad is either something to be proud of (pushing to your sport limit on trad, which would normally mean regular failures on routes as well as successes), or that you've no idea where your physical limits are because you hit mental ones first (rare to fail, climbing sport like its trad, very precisely, statically, up and downing things, all that). Some people do manage the former but the latter is a lot more common, so trying harder moves in some way is a useful way to show your head that it's holding you back - you might get stronger into the bargain but that isn't really the main purpose of it.
The other thing, to be fair, is to accept that failure is a part of pushing yourself - if you see a victory as having 10 points and a fall as having zero points (or even -9 points) then logically it always makes sense to give things a try. That's the sort of mindset to go for. I blew the onsight of one of the best E3s in my local area a few years back, but because I was onsighting well (lots of sport onsighting just beforehand meant I was climbing well and positively and things) I really gave it everything and so didn't feel bad about it, there was none of the frustration of knowing you could have tried a bit harder or a bit better, I'd given it my best shot and it had won. Came back a year later and did it - a cracking route it is too.
Not that I've been contributing much, but my difference between sport and trad grades is because I have done maybe 10 trad routes spread widely over a year or so since going from about 6b onsight to 6c onsighting lots with forays above. Easily explicable and easily remedied.
I wonder why you're keen to deflect interest away from yourself, having started the thread - its worth asking yourself if it's just that you don't like the actions that the 7a sport leaders are telling you you need to do? Thats probabjly a sign you know theyre right Change is always uncomfortable after all and being resistant to it is perfectly natural.
My advice, for what it's worth, would have been the same 2 years ago when I was climbing E1 and the odd E2 and about Fr6b. get out there and try harder moves on both sport and trad. The fact your grades are so close together for sport and trad is either something to be proud of (pushing to your sport limit on trad, which would normally mean regular failures on routes as well as successes), or that you've no idea where your physical limits are because you hit mental ones first (rare to fail, climbing sport like its trad, very precisely, statically, up and downing things, all that). Some people do manage the former but the latter is a lot more common, so trying harder moves in some way is a useful way to show your head that it's holding you back - you might get stronger into the bargain but that isn't really the main purpose of it.
The other thing, to be fair, is to accept that failure is a part of pushing yourself - if you see a victory as having 10 points and a fall as having zero points (or even -9 points) then logically it always makes sense to give things a try. That's the sort of mindset to go for. I blew the onsight of one of the best E3s in my local area a few years back, but because I was onsighting well (lots of sport onsighting just beforehand meant I was climbing well and positively and things) I really gave it everything and so didn't feel bad about it, there was none of the frustration of knowing you could have tried a bit harder or a bit better, I'd given it my best shot and it had won. Came back a year later and did it - a cracking route it is too.
In reply to JonC:
There's one line in your well-written (and, in my experience, extremely common) plea which stuck out for me:
This suggests that, despite writing 5ish paragraphs of text asking for help, deep down you know exactly what you could be doing to improve your grade. But if you don't enjoy sport climbing and bouldering, there's no sense in forcing yourself to try.
The problem with E2 classics such as Vector and Left Wall is that if onsight 6a+/6b "on a good day" then you're very likely to fail on either of these.
My suggestion would be to target E1 and tick as many as you can. My first port of call would be Pembrokeshire where you are practically tripping over 3* soft-touch E1 straight from the carpark in St.Govans.
However from the routes you mentioned in your post you seem to know North Wales, so my season ticklist would start off something like:
Bow-Shaped/Great Slab combo (HVS at Cloggy, good intro)
Brant Direct (technical HVS in the pass)
Cemetary Gates (soft E1)
Superdirect (best E1 EVA!!!!111)
Cenotaph Corner (hard E1)
The Plum (take a big cam)
and lots of soft touches on Slate such as Looning the Tube, Seams the Same
...and then move on to more committing routes such as White Slab, Gogarth etc. Then you start looking at E2.
Good luck, I was once where you were, and the following years were undoubtedly the best ones of my climbing-life (so far)!
There's one line in your well-written (and, in my experience, extremely common) plea which stuck out for me:
> I'm not really into bouldering or redpointing, which I know isn't very helpful in terms of strength gains
This suggests that, despite writing 5ish paragraphs of text asking for help, deep down you know exactly what you could be doing to improve your grade. But if you don't enjoy sport climbing and bouldering, there's no sense in forcing yourself to try.
The problem with E2 classics such as Vector and Left Wall is that if onsight 6a+/6b "on a good day" then you're very likely to fail on either of these.
My suggestion would be to target E1 and tick as many as you can. My first port of call would be Pembrokeshire where you are practically tripping over 3* soft-touch E1 straight from the carpark in St.Govans.
However from the routes you mentioned in your post you seem to know North Wales, so my season ticklist would start off something like:
Bow-Shaped/Great Slab combo (HVS at Cloggy, good intro)
Brant Direct (technical HVS in the pass)
Cemetary Gates (soft E1)
Superdirect (best E1 EVA!!!!111)
Cenotaph Corner (hard E1)
The Plum (take a big cam)
and lots of soft touches on Slate such as Looning the Tube, Seams the Same
...and then move on to more committing routes such as White Slab, Gogarth etc. Then you start looking at E2.
Good luck, I was once where you were, and the following years were undoubtedly the best ones of my climbing-life (so far)!
In reply to AlanLittle:
I thought the 'crux' was a doddle. But I completely shit myself on the 3rd pitch (which, of course, I found much more memorable!)
> Vector is very well protected, with a short crux section on the second pitch with good rests before & after. But Andy is right, it's an intricate line and retreat could be complicated.
I thought the 'crux' was a doddle. But I completely shit myself on the 3rd pitch (which, of course, I found much more memorable!)
In reply to JonC:
My honest assessment of your responses in this thread is that you won't push your grade. What comes across is that you like the idea of climbing higher grades but aren't willing to do what it takes to get there (there are plenty of different ways of getting there, many of them indicated in this thread). You have expended energy on putting obstacles in the way of the suggestions made. If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got. You say you didn't like Dave MacLeod's book, but consider this quote: 'The first thing to change is fear of change ... The real reason they are totally focused on strength is because deep down they are avoiding their real weakness which is usually either fear of falling or fear of failure.' Do you think this applies to you?
My honest assessment of your responses in this thread is that you won't push your grade. What comes across is that you like the idea of climbing higher grades but aren't willing to do what it takes to get there (there are plenty of different ways of getting there, many of them indicated in this thread). You have expended energy on putting obstacles in the way of the suggestions made. If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got. You say you didn't like Dave MacLeod's book, but consider this quote: 'The first thing to change is fear of change ... The real reason they are totally focused on strength is because deep down they are avoiding their real weakness which is usually either fear of falling or fear of failure.' Do you think this applies to you?
In reply to JonC:
I guess I fall into that category. Why don't I climb harder trad? There are a number of reasons that boil down to: Because I haven't properly applied myself to doing so. I enjoy onsight climbing most when it's in a little bit of comfort and I climb for fun. I'm a coward. I'm really enjoying redpointing at the moment, I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve and incremental improvement is still easy.
The beauty of redpointing as a tool to change your climbing as a whole is in its ability to break down mental barriers. Going from finding every single move hard in isolation to linking big chunks in a session then coming back to link it all or burn out trying is hugely rewarding. As has been said before it also teaches you that when required you can press on through the most horrendous pump.
Remember also profile numbers (and some logbooks) can be deceptive, mine are basically following a change of focus from bumbly trad to bumbly sport. I've not really gone back and applied the lessons learned and fitness gained (if there is any).
jk
> I have no problem with taking lessons from anyone at any level, but I think the people in the above category should ask themselves why they aren't leading far harder trad grades. My problem is rather different I think.
I guess I fall into that category. Why don't I climb harder trad? There are a number of reasons that boil down to: Because I haven't properly applied myself to doing so. I enjoy onsight climbing most when it's in a little bit of comfort and I climb for fun. I'm a coward. I'm really enjoying redpointing at the moment, I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve and incremental improvement is still easy.
The beauty of redpointing as a tool to change your climbing as a whole is in its ability to break down mental barriers. Going from finding every single move hard in isolation to linking big chunks in a session then coming back to link it all or burn out trying is hugely rewarding. As has been said before it also teaches you that when required you can press on through the most horrendous pump.
Remember also profile numbers (and some logbooks) can be deceptive, mine are basically following a change of focus from bumbly trad to bumbly sport. I've not really gone back and applied the lessons learned and fitness gained (if there is any).
jk
In reply to JonC:
I think it is worth adding that I was in pretty much exactly the same situation as you in 2008: in my late 40s, usually comfortable onsighting E1 and occasionally E2, rarely bouldered indoors and never outdoors, got injured whenever I tried to train, sport climbed occasionally and did so like a trad climber onsighting the occasional F6b+ but mostly finding it all rather hard, climbed in crappy but comfy rock shoes and assumed they were good enough, occasionally seconded E3-E5 and thought I would love to be good enough to lead this but basically felt scared and out of my depth and grateful I wasn’t actually leading it.
In 2008 I read various how to improve books, got some decent rock shoes, started climbing more and went on an Adrian Berry coaching day with the aim of breaking into E3. I realised that, however much I liked the idea of leading E3-E4, in fact I didn’t enjoy the pressure of trad leading at that grade – too much fear of falling in terms of gear ripping or runouts and hitting things even if the gear didn’t rip while climbing at that level of difficulty. I also realised that I didn’t want to do what was required to overcome that fear.
On the one hand, that let me get on with enjoying VS to occasional E2 trad onsighting. On the other hand, I wanted to try some other things. Due to age, injury prone-ness, lack of decent outdoor bouldering in my area and sheer lack of interest, I didn’t go in for bouldering outdoors. What I did do was give redpointing a proper go by reading up about it, climbing with people who showed me how to do it properly and really giving it a proper go. At first I thought it was ridiculous and a bit embarrassing getting on a route in the 7s and ‘failing’, but broke through that psychological barrier and accepted that in sport climbing there is no such thing as failure, only projects! I did my first F7a in 2009, first F7b and F7b+ in 2010, first F7c in 2011 and have an F7c+ project on the go which I reckon I will get this year. I have dabbled back in some trad occasionally, at no higher grade than before. The individual moves feel pretty easy and the holds huge, but even so I understand that any trad progress will require different, additional forms of learning that I may never want to take on. After all, what was holding me back with trad is still there - too much fear of falling in terms of gear ripping or runouts and hitting things even if the gear didn’t rip while climbing at that level of difficulty
Bottom line: be honest about what is holding you back and about whether you are willing to do what it takes to overcome those barriers. With trad, I’m happier for knowing where I really am with it all.
I think it is worth adding that I was in pretty much exactly the same situation as you in 2008: in my late 40s, usually comfortable onsighting E1 and occasionally E2, rarely bouldered indoors and never outdoors, got injured whenever I tried to train, sport climbed occasionally and did so like a trad climber onsighting the occasional F6b+ but mostly finding it all rather hard, climbed in crappy but comfy rock shoes and assumed they were good enough, occasionally seconded E3-E5 and thought I would love to be good enough to lead this but basically felt scared and out of my depth and grateful I wasn’t actually leading it.
In 2008 I read various how to improve books, got some decent rock shoes, started climbing more and went on an Adrian Berry coaching day with the aim of breaking into E3. I realised that, however much I liked the idea of leading E3-E4, in fact I didn’t enjoy the pressure of trad leading at that grade – too much fear of falling in terms of gear ripping or runouts and hitting things even if the gear didn’t rip while climbing at that level of difficulty. I also realised that I didn’t want to do what was required to overcome that fear.
On the one hand, that let me get on with enjoying VS to occasional E2 trad onsighting. On the other hand, I wanted to try some other things. Due to age, injury prone-ness, lack of decent outdoor bouldering in my area and sheer lack of interest, I didn’t go in for bouldering outdoors. What I did do was give redpointing a proper go by reading up about it, climbing with people who showed me how to do it properly and really giving it a proper go. At first I thought it was ridiculous and a bit embarrassing getting on a route in the 7s and ‘failing’, but broke through that psychological barrier and accepted that in sport climbing there is no such thing as failure, only projects! I did my first F7a in 2009, first F7b and F7b+ in 2010, first F7c in 2011 and have an F7c+ project on the go which I reckon I will get this year. I have dabbled back in some trad occasionally, at no higher grade than before. The individual moves feel pretty easy and the holds huge, but even so I understand that any trad progress will require different, additional forms of learning that I may never want to take on. After all, what was holding me back with trad is still there - too much fear of falling in terms of gear ripping or runouts and hitting things even if the gear didn’t rip while climbing at that level of difficulty
Bottom line: be honest about what is holding you back and about whether you are willing to do what it takes to overcome those barriers. With trad, I’m happier for knowing where I really am with it all.
In reply to JonC:
I'd be surprised if you do not have the physical potential to climb 7a and E4, you are also probably putting in enough hours to get to these levels as well. I think the problem is you are not trying hard enough! People who do well at climbing (the naturals aside) do better because they want it more so they try harder. You say you are scared of pushing yourslf but it could just be that, like me, you are scared of failing on a particular route so you don't try it (saving it for the onsight syndrome), or lack belief so instead of snatching for the next hold you down climb/slump.
I don't believe that bouldering skills are transferable enough to improe trad climbing but I do beleive onsight climbing at a variety of walls is, it gives you a chance to learn to push on when pumped. If you are not failing at the wall you are only maintaining your current level. You need to try hard every time you go out, lead everything, do an extra route when you are knackered, get more milage in and everything else will follow (up to a point). Once you get past 7a you might need to address specific weaknesses with specific traing but until then its just a case of lots of mileage and really trying, learn to embrace failure!
I'd be surprised if you do not have the physical potential to climb 7a and E4, you are also probably putting in enough hours to get to these levels as well. I think the problem is you are not trying hard enough! People who do well at climbing (the naturals aside) do better because they want it more so they try harder. You say you are scared of pushing yourslf but it could just be that, like me, you are scared of failing on a particular route so you don't try it (saving it for the onsight syndrome), or lack belief so instead of snatching for the next hold you down climb/slump.
I don't believe that bouldering skills are transferable enough to improe trad climbing but I do beleive onsight climbing at a variety of walls is, it gives you a chance to learn to push on when pumped. If you are not failing at the wall you are only maintaining your current level. You need to try hard every time you go out, lead everything, do an extra route when you are knackered, get more milage in and everything else will follow (up to a point). Once you get past 7a you might need to address specific weaknesses with specific traing but until then its just a case of lots of mileage and really trying, learn to embrace failure!
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Going bouldering is so much more fun, less effort, more efficient more effective than dogging the sh!t out of E2s. I really don't know why you objected to my advice and then posted that - it doesn't make any sense.
I agree that there isn't a single 'key', but my own experience is that I climbed VS/HVS up until I started bouldering, then I learnt how to climb hard moves and could climb E grades. That simple, no top-roping (which I find both a faff and unsatisfying) needed.
There's clearly loads of ways to progress, but they all involve trying and failing on hard moves. If you want the extra faff of doing that on a rope, then yeah, it'll work. I maintain that the quickest way to try hard moves is on boulders.
> (In reply to JonC)
>
> Find safe E2, dog it, headpoint it, get your arse up the f*cker somehow. Repeat as often as necessary.
>
> Find safe E2, dog it, headpoint it, get your arse up the f*cker somehow. Repeat as often as necessary.
Going bouldering is so much more fun, less effort, more efficient more effective than dogging the sh!t out of E2s. I really don't know why you objected to my advice and then posted that - it doesn't make any sense.
I agree that there isn't a single 'key', but my own experience is that I climbed VS/HVS up until I started bouldering, then I learnt how to climb hard moves and could climb E grades. That simple, no top-roping (which I find both a faff and unsatisfying) needed.
There's clearly loads of ways to progress, but they all involve trying and failing on hard moves. If you want the extra faff of doing that on a rope, then yeah, it'll work. I maintain that the quickest way to try hard moves is on boulders.
In reply to Tyler:
This is a brilliant set of posts; informative, encouraging, critical in a positive way and showing real depth of experience & knowledge.
why should I be interested? because i lead 6a/b indoors (once a week)and climb outdoors 2 or 3 times a year and lead trad VS/HVS. I'm also 62. But so much of what has ben said sounds like what I have mapped in my head for next year, when I plan on being Jim at Home, not Jim at Work! I have left wall on my list, and see all the advantages of the advice re giving it a good shot. Several years ago I led the corner, having only led 6 or 7 VS's that year - I trained a bit harder, but the key was utter detrmination to give it a go. It was a good choice because it was so safe. Get on them, that's the summary of the advice I think.
I'll try to catch up with your achievements next year Jon! Good Luck!
This is a brilliant set of posts; informative, encouraging, critical in a positive way and showing real depth of experience & knowledge.
why should I be interested? because i lead 6a/b indoors (once a week)and climb outdoors 2 or 3 times a year and lead trad VS/HVS. I'm also 62. But so much of what has ben said sounds like what I have mapped in my head for next year, when I plan on being Jim at Home, not Jim at Work! I have left wall on my list, and see all the advantages of the advice re giving it a good shot. Several years ago I led the corner, having only led 6 or 7 VS's that year - I trained a bit harder, but the key was utter detrmination to give it a go. It was a good choice because it was so safe. Get on them, that's the summary of the advice I think.
I'll try to catch up with your achievements next year Jon! Good Luck!
In reply to Jim at Work:
Go for it, and we'll be happy to cheer you on and offer advice as best we can!
Go for it, and we'll be happy to cheer you on and offer advice as best we can!
In reply to JonC: I've been climbing for almost 50 years. I was climbing routes in 1968 that now get E2/3. My current level is about the same but obviously at 63 age is not on my side. I think that I can maintain that standard for a little longer, I hope, just by climbing regularly. I peaked at the age of 55 with regular leads of E4 and F7a and the odd E5 but it required a lot more effort than I'm willing or able to put in now. I have never really trained just put in the mileage. I even approach indoor routes like those outside which I acknowledge inhibits my progress but I took up climbing specifically because it was an activity that you just got on and did back then. For me motivation to do specific routes is a big factor once I have got a few weeks trad under my belt.
Al
Al
In reply to Jim at Work: I agree interesting, honest posts and very informative. I’m interested though in what advice / changes the OP plans. Will be interesting to see what difference it makes and if he achieves his goals in the desired timeframe.
In reply to JonC: Ok, I've got a slightly different take especially from those saying you need a bigger physical buffer and I'm not going to advocate sport climbing or even bouldering as I think you can achieve your aim this summer without doing something that clearly doesn't motivate you.
I flat out disagree with people saying a limit of onsighting 6b/+ isn't enough to climb classic E2s. That was my exact limit when I climbed the sort of routes you want to do. Summer 2006 I climbed left wall, Saxon and white slab and a bunch of grit e2s and I distinctly remember failing on a F6band thinking sport was a waste of time. I didn't flash 6b+ till the following summer and that was after learning to redpoint (going from 6b to 7a in one day).
However, you need to change your mindset and focus. The difference for me then boils down to mileage and confidence. I was (trad) climbing constantly and I was confident (no kids like I have now). I suspect you need to climb more. Both more often and more routes in a day. This is partly supposition but I think it applies to a lot of people (including myself)
Stop repeating routes and climbing in the same old places (I get the impression you climb at tremadog too much. These are both bad habits that good climbers don't indulge in. Climb with better people. Where does this weird idea that that means dropping longstanding partners come from? I climb promiscuously and deliberately with better climbers, but I also have old mates who I love to climb trad with but I don't expect to learn from them.
Better climbers don't drag you up routes they show you what is possible and you should copy their approach, tactics and mental approach. Most of climbing well is in the mind.
Stop building up routes into something they're not. Get on vector. It isn't even that hard and the polish is overstated the ochre slab would get E1 on peak limestone! If you fall off, so what, you've learnt something and there are shit loads of other routes to onsight. Have you not done super direct? Get on it! Left wall: be fit, be confident, cruise cemetery gates and get on it!
Finally, everyone advocating sport climbing is right but do it because you want to. Your selling yourself short (totally natural if you haven't actually sport climbed, which you haven't). I guarantee I could show you how to redpoint 6c in a session. Im pretty confident you could climb 7a if you tried. Serious offer: come to the peak and I'll prove it.
I flat out disagree with people saying a limit of onsighting 6b/+ isn't enough to climb classic E2s. That was my exact limit when I climbed the sort of routes you want to do. Summer 2006 I climbed left wall, Saxon and white slab and a bunch of grit e2s and I distinctly remember failing on a F6band thinking sport was a waste of time. I didn't flash 6b+ till the following summer and that was after learning to redpoint (going from 6b to 7a in one day).
However, you need to change your mindset and focus. The difference for me then boils down to mileage and confidence. I was (trad) climbing constantly and I was confident (no kids like I have now). I suspect you need to climb more. Both more often and more routes in a day. This is partly supposition but I think it applies to a lot of people (including myself)
Stop repeating routes and climbing in the same old places (I get the impression you climb at tremadog too much. These are both bad habits that good climbers don't indulge in. Climb with better people. Where does this weird idea that that means dropping longstanding partners come from? I climb promiscuously and deliberately with better climbers, but I also have old mates who I love to climb trad with but I don't expect to learn from them.
Better climbers don't drag you up routes they show you what is possible and you should copy their approach, tactics and mental approach. Most of climbing well is in the mind.
Stop building up routes into something they're not. Get on vector. It isn't even that hard and the polish is overstated the ochre slab would get E1 on peak limestone! If you fall off, so what, you've learnt something and there are shit loads of other routes to onsight. Have you not done super direct? Get on it! Left wall: be fit, be confident, cruise cemetery gates and get on it!
Finally, everyone advocating sport climbing is right but do it because you want to. Your selling yourself short (totally natural if you haven't actually sport climbed, which you haven't). I guarantee I could show you how to redpoint 6c in a session. Im pretty confident you could climb 7a if you tried. Serious offer: come to the peak and I'll prove it.
Thanks to all for the continued posts on this thread which I have just read with interest (boring stuff like work got in the way today...). The final one by Stig was particularly interesting and I will respond to separately.
I have a few comments to make and it's probably worth making them in a general sense.
For those who say I am trying to avoid making changes, I am genuinely taking all this on board and trying to do something different this year. To be fair, it was a change for me to jump on an E1 on my 1st weekend of climbing in the season after a 5 month break from trad. That was a start. And yes I have even picked up 9 out of 10 and am starting to read it again I started this thread precisely because I wanted to do something different. However, I do have a bad injury record and so training really really hard could well put my out for the rest of the season (eg. if I rupture a tendon, for the 3rd time, or dislocate a shoulder again). Therefore, it isn't as simple as just bouldering/redpointing until I drop. One of the older climbers above made this very point.
My starting point for this thread was that I thought maybe the answer was to climb with better climbers. I only rejected the rather off hand suggestions to have a complete change of climbing partners as my main partner is my best mate, and the other is my other half. I count myself lucky I get to climb with people I like and trust implicitly. I had in mind maybe doing the odd day with some better climbers or even getting some coaching of some form to show me what is possible.
There seem to be quite contrary views as to whether I could lead solid E2 at my current fitness levels. I led what I would think of as soft E2's when a lot less fit (at least as measured in sports climbing terms). So you might think I would be good for harder E2's now. As I said, and as others have said, I won't know until I get on them (and I will). But I do tend to think that I could really do with finding a way to improve my all round ability if only a notch or two. Continually squeezing the margin between current ability and lead grade is unlikely to work very well long term and, as someone else pointed out, could lead to some unpleasamt experiences.
Finally, by having a mild pop at the 7a sports climbers leading E2 of thereabouts, I was not trying to deflect attention from myself. I was making the point that those people appeared to have ignored a lot of what I was saying and maybe weren't looking at it from my perspective - albeit whilst trying to make their own views heard. And I do want a diverse range of views. In fact, I have tried to be very honest on this thread about how I see my climbing not to show how unconfident I am but to get some meaningful comments. Whilst I do see the vast majority of the comments as constructive, I'm a little disappointed that one or two comments have been quite critical in almost a personal way.
After this thread dies down, I may well post an update or two later in the season - though not a blow by blow account! That might just give me the added incentive I need...
I have a few comments to make and it's probably worth making them in a general sense.
For those who say I am trying to avoid making changes, I am genuinely taking all this on board and trying to do something different this year. To be fair, it was a change for me to jump on an E1 on my 1st weekend of climbing in the season after a 5 month break from trad. That was a start. And yes I have even picked up 9 out of 10 and am starting to read it again I started this thread precisely because I wanted to do something different. However, I do have a bad injury record and so training really really hard could well put my out for the rest of the season (eg. if I rupture a tendon, for the 3rd time, or dislocate a shoulder again). Therefore, it isn't as simple as just bouldering/redpointing until I drop. One of the older climbers above made this very point.
My starting point for this thread was that I thought maybe the answer was to climb with better climbers. I only rejected the rather off hand suggestions to have a complete change of climbing partners as my main partner is my best mate, and the other is my other half. I count myself lucky I get to climb with people I like and trust implicitly. I had in mind maybe doing the odd day with some better climbers or even getting some coaching of some form to show me what is possible.
There seem to be quite contrary views as to whether I could lead solid E2 at my current fitness levels. I led what I would think of as soft E2's when a lot less fit (at least as measured in sports climbing terms). So you might think I would be good for harder E2's now. As I said, and as others have said, I won't know until I get on them (and I will). But I do tend to think that I could really do with finding a way to improve my all round ability if only a notch or two. Continually squeezing the margin between current ability and lead grade is unlikely to work very well long term and, as someone else pointed out, could lead to some unpleasamt experiences.
Finally, by having a mild pop at the 7a sports climbers leading E2 of thereabouts, I was not trying to deflect attention from myself. I was making the point that those people appeared to have ignored a lot of what I was saying and maybe weren't looking at it from my perspective - albeit whilst trying to make their own views heard. And I do want a diverse range of views. In fact, I have tried to be very honest on this thread about how I see my climbing not to show how unconfident I am but to get some meaningful comments. Whilst I do see the vast majority of the comments as constructive, I'm a little disappointed that one or two comments have been quite critical in almost a personal way.
After this thread dies down, I may well post an update or two later in the season - though not a blow by blow account! That might just give me the added incentive I need...
In reply to Stig:
Not quite correct. I do enjoy sports climbing, I just don't redpoint. Never tried it. I accept that this isn't really 'sports climbing' in the way most sports climbers will mean it. I'm in the Ariege in a few weeks so there's an opportunity to try it. Where's a good place to read up about redpoint tactics?
All true.
True and something that is top of my list to change. That was partly what motivated my post. I've been settling into a nice little comfort zone of places and routes I know well without really pushing myself.
I hope I explained that in my last post. If I had oodles of time I could go climbing with whoever I wanted. I don't, I have quite limited time and I would literally be letting down other people. However, I have taken the message on board and will do something about it.
I did have a habit of doing that - you know, the save it for the onsight mentality. The last few years I've started to think the opportunity had passed me by. However, I'm now determined to get on some of them this season. As I've said before, hence this post.
Is that a money back guarantee? I may well take you up on the offer.
> (I'm not going to advocate sport climbing or even bouldering as I think you can achieve your aim this summer without doing something that clearly doesn't motivate you.
Not quite correct. I do enjoy sports climbing, I just don't redpoint. Never tried it. I accept that this isn't really 'sports climbing' in the way most sports climbers will mean it. I'm in the Ariege in a few weeks so there's an opportunity to try it. Where's a good place to read up about redpoint tactics?
> However, you need to change your mindset and focus. The difference for me then boils down to mileage and confidence. I suspect you need to climb more. Both more often and more routes in a day.
All true.
> Stop repeating routes and climbing in the same old places (I get the impression you climb at tremadog too much.
True and something that is top of my list to change. That was partly what motivated my post. I've been settling into a nice little comfort zone of places and routes I know well without really pushing myself.
> Climb with better people. Where does this weird idea that that means dropping longstanding partners come from?
I hope I explained that in my last post. If I had oodles of time I could go climbing with whoever I wanted. I don't, I have quite limited time and I would literally be letting down other people. However, I have taken the message on board and will do something about it.
> Stop building up routes into something they're not. Get on vector.
I did have a habit of doing that - you know, the save it for the onsight mentality. The last few years I've started to think the opportunity had passed me by. However, I'm now determined to get on some of them this season. As I've said before, hence this post.
> I guarantee I could show you how to redpoint 6c in a session. Im pretty confident you could climb 7a if you tried. Serious offer: come to the peak and I'll prove it.
Is that a money back guarantee? I may well take you up on the offer.
In reply to Stig:
While there is a lot of sense in this post I actually disagree with a couple points:
The OP mentioned that his onsight sport limit was 6a/+. This is more in E1 territory than E2. 6b+ is solid E3 territory. While many climbers are strong enough in trad to successfully lead routes which are near their sport limit, most aren't. Also - comparing grit trad and limestone sport doesn't really work, whereas you can happily say that Left Wall is around 6a+/b.
I am all for not avoiding classic routes (otherwise you'll never get on them), but I know several people who fell off Left Wall as their first E2 attempt and regretted it later. Climbing 'a classic' as the first of any grade just adds pressure. And Left Wall is miles harder than Cemetery Gates!
While there is a lot of sense in this post I actually disagree with a couple points:
> I flat out disagree with people saying a limit of onsighting 6b/+ isn't enough to climb classic E2s.
The OP mentioned that his onsight sport limit was 6a/+. This is more in E1 territory than E2. 6b+ is solid E3 territory. While many climbers are strong enough in trad to successfully lead routes which are near their sport limit, most aren't. Also - comparing grit trad and limestone sport doesn't really work, whereas you can happily say that Left Wall is around 6a+/b.
> Left wall: be fit, be confident, cruise cemetery gates and get on it!
I am all for not avoiding classic routes (otherwise you'll never get on them), but I know several people who fell off Left Wall as their first E2 attempt and regretted it later. Climbing 'a classic' as the first of any grade just adds pressure. And Left Wall is miles harder than Cemetery Gates!
In reply to Alun:
No I didn't. Read my 1st post again. I said 6a+/6b and I also said I had managed to fluke a couple of 6b+'s (which by definition probably weren't!).
> The OP mentioned that his onsight sport limit was 6a/+.
No I didn't. Read my 1st post again. I said 6a+/6b and I also said I had managed to fluke a couple of 6b+'s (which by definition probably weren't!).
In reply to JonC:
I suspect the difference between trad-sport grades has a lot to do with ones current preferred style. Even more so for folk that have very little experience of one game or the other because they've specialised early on in their 'career'.
I don't think there is a correct/ideal pairing of F and E grades, it varies from person to person with their interests and abilities, your grades appear pretty normal given your OS trad focus, it should be possible to skew them a little one way or the other in favour of sport or trad without too much change. Take me for example, my profile says I've onsighted 7a and E4, the reality is I've probably a 50% probability onsighting at F6b+/c and something similar E2/3. That I've onsighted 7a ish merely reflects the fact I've tried quite a few and failed most of them! If I climb a lot of sport this summer I'll hopefully OS some more 7s but my trad OS-best is unlikely to increase, visa vesa if I focus on the trad. Decisions decisions!
Out of interest, what's your CV fitness like? I found one thing that was holding me back was getting totally out of shape on longer pitches because I was seriously unfit. I know people say it has little bearing on climbing performance and I'd agree, going from fit to fitter probably isn't worth the work but from unfit to fairly fit is certainly worth the effort! Also the climbing-limiting injury risk is pretty low and you can work at it on rest days.
I still think you mostly need to get on the routes and start ticking, you'll have the odd failure along the way but with your experience I'd assume your judgement is sound and you'll be ok. Good luck!
jk
> Finally, by having a mild pop at the 7a sports climbers leading E2 of thereabouts, I was not trying to deflect attention from myself...
I suspect the difference between trad-sport grades has a lot to do with ones current preferred style. Even more so for folk that have very little experience of one game or the other because they've specialised early on in their 'career'.
I don't think there is a correct/ideal pairing of F and E grades, it varies from person to person with their interests and abilities, your grades appear pretty normal given your OS trad focus, it should be possible to skew them a little one way or the other in favour of sport or trad without too much change. Take me for example, my profile says I've onsighted 7a and E4, the reality is I've probably a 50% probability onsighting at F6b+/c and something similar E2/3. That I've onsighted 7a ish merely reflects the fact I've tried quite a few and failed most of them! If I climb a lot of sport this summer I'll hopefully OS some more 7s but my trad OS-best is unlikely to increase, visa vesa if I focus on the trad. Decisions decisions!
Out of interest, what's your CV fitness like? I found one thing that was holding me back was getting totally out of shape on longer pitches because I was seriously unfit. I know people say it has little bearing on climbing performance and I'd agree, going from fit to fitter probably isn't worth the work but from unfit to fairly fit is certainly worth the effort! Also the climbing-limiting injury risk is pretty low and you can work at it on rest days.
I still think you mostly need to get on the routes and start ticking, you'll have the odd failure along the way but with your experience I'd assume your judgement is sound and you'll be ok. Good luck!
jk
In reply to JonC:
Start a thread, it's the start of the limestone season and I'm sure there are plenty of folk who'd benefit from the discussion
jk
> I'm in the Ariege in a few weeks so there's an opportunity to try it. Where's a good place to read up about redpoint tactics?
Start a thread, it's the start of the limestone season and I'm sure there are plenty of folk who'd benefit from the discussion
jk
In reply to JonC:
My apologies, you're right.
The point I'm trying to make is that most people climb trad at a level comfortably below their sport grade, and 6a+/6b is solid E2 level, which means you have more than a reasonable chance of falling off!
The again, the other point I'm making is that there's no point going sport climbing if what you really want to do is climb trad..., which is why my suggestion is to go out and climb buckets of E1s.
> No I didn't. Read my 1st post again. I said 6a+/6b and I also said I had managed to fluke a couple of 6b+'s (which by definition probably weren't!).
My apologies, you're right.
The point I'm trying to make is that most people climb trad at a level comfortably below their sport grade, and 6a+/6b is solid E2 level, which means you have more than a reasonable chance of falling off!
The again, the other point I'm making is that there's no point going sport climbing if what you really want to do is climb trad..., which is why my suggestion is to go out and climb buckets of E1s.
In reply to jkarran:
I suspect the defining characteristic of my climbing to date is that, by and large, I play it safe. I don't get on a harder route unless I a) really fancy the look of the line etc, and b) think I have a reasonable chance of getting up it. I have been pretty good at picking routes that do suit me. However, as a result of not pushing my boundaries too much and being quite good at on-sighting, I can count my trad 'failures' on one hand. That's quite old school I know and not very helpful in terms of what we have been discussing. It's genuinely not so much a fear of falling or sensible run-outs; just some mental motivational issues getting in the way. The odd time I've just stood under a harder line which inspires me (but where the outcome has been very much in doubt) and actually gone for it anyway, has tended to pay off but it's been hard for me to use that as a lesson for some reason. I did take a very long (20ft+) ground scraping fall (only minor damage luckily) off a bold E3 slab quite early on in my climbing career and that rather put a halt to continually pushing the boat out on bold slabs; probably sensibly, but may have had more of an effect on my psychology than I thought. I went on to do a fair number of E1's and a few E2's but never really got comfortable at E1 even if I'm being honest.
I do push the boat out a bit more on sports but still tend to surprise myself and get up stuff, which must mean I'm not trying hard enough I did, however, take a huge lob off a 6b last year after touching the lower off but being so pumped stupid I couldn't even hang on. Apart from being great fun, it did open my eyes a bit more and has been a motivational factor on that side of things. I can also see that my improved sports climbing has fed back into my trad climbing (most VS/HVS's feel relatively straightforward now and, as per last weekend, E1 didn't feel the living end by any means). So I can see that it is worthwhile persisting and trying to up my game.
My CV fitness is not brilliant as it's mostly gym training inbetween wall days but it's ok. I seemed to cope ok with long pitches - trad and sports - but that might suffer a bit on harder stuff; not sure.
I suspect the defining characteristic of my climbing to date is that, by and large, I play it safe. I don't get on a harder route unless I a) really fancy the look of the line etc, and b) think I have a reasonable chance of getting up it. I have been pretty good at picking routes that do suit me. However, as a result of not pushing my boundaries too much and being quite good at on-sighting, I can count my trad 'failures' on one hand. That's quite old school I know and not very helpful in terms of what we have been discussing. It's genuinely not so much a fear of falling or sensible run-outs; just some mental motivational issues getting in the way. The odd time I've just stood under a harder line which inspires me (but where the outcome has been very much in doubt) and actually gone for it anyway, has tended to pay off but it's been hard for me to use that as a lesson for some reason. I did take a very long (20ft+) ground scraping fall (only minor damage luckily) off a bold E3 slab quite early on in my climbing career and that rather put a halt to continually pushing the boat out on bold slabs; probably sensibly, but may have had more of an effect on my psychology than I thought. I went on to do a fair number of E1's and a few E2's but never really got comfortable at E1 even if I'm being honest.
I do push the boat out a bit more on sports but still tend to surprise myself and get up stuff, which must mean I'm not trying hard enough I did, however, take a huge lob off a 6b last year after touching the lower off but being so pumped stupid I couldn't even hang on. Apart from being great fun, it did open my eyes a bit more and has been a motivational factor on that side of things. I can also see that my improved sports climbing has fed back into my trad climbing (most VS/HVS's feel relatively straightforward now and, as per last weekend, E1 didn't feel the living end by any means). So I can see that it is worthwhile persisting and trying to up my game.
My CV fitness is not brilliant as it's mostly gym training inbetween wall days but it's ok. I seemed to cope ok with long pitches - trad and sports - but that might suffer a bit on harder stuff; not sure.
In reply to JonC:
>I did have a habit of doing that - you know, the save it for the onsight mentality.
Never, never, never do this. It's always just an excuse. I guarantee you that at the end of your climbing career you'll have plenty of brilliant routes and projects left unticked. You don't need to save anything; nature will take care of saving stuff all on her own.
jcm
>I did have a habit of doing that - you know, the save it for the onsight mentality.
Never, never, never do this. It's always just an excuse. I guarantee you that at the end of your climbing career you'll have plenty of brilliant routes and projects left unticked. You don't need to save anything; nature will take care of saving stuff all on her own.
jcm
In reply to Jon Stewart:
>Going bouldering is so much more fun, less effort, more efficient more effective than dogging the sh!t out of E2s. I really don't know why you objected to my advice and then posted that - it doesn't make any sense.
I objected to it because it's bollocks, that's all.
Bouldering is, as you say, splendid fun and less effort, which is why it's popular. It may well also make you stronger and teach you how to do harder moves.
However, in my experience what stops people - at any rate experienced climbers - from leading a higher grade than they do is virtually never the simple inability to pull the moves through lack of ability or strength. Almost always the issue is, in some form, a simple failure to extract the relevant digit from some orifice or other.
It consequently makes sense to address that issue first before worrying about becoming stronger. It's most unlikely that you actually need to do the latter to climb the modest grades that most of us aspire to, whereas it's all but certain that you need to do the former.
jcm
>Going bouldering is so much more fun, less effort, more efficient more effective than dogging the sh!t out of E2s. I really don't know why you objected to my advice and then posted that - it doesn't make any sense.
I objected to it because it's bollocks, that's all.
Bouldering is, as you say, splendid fun and less effort, which is why it's popular. It may well also make you stronger and teach you how to do harder moves.
However, in my experience what stops people - at any rate experienced climbers - from leading a higher grade than they do is virtually never the simple inability to pull the moves through lack of ability or strength. Almost always the issue is, in some form, a simple failure to extract the relevant digit from some orifice or other.
It consequently makes sense to address that issue first before worrying about becoming stronger. It's most unlikely that you actually need to do the latter to climb the modest grades that most of us aspire to, whereas it's all but certain that you need to do the former.
jcm
In reply to JonC:
I'm in the same boat but I'm sure I know what the answer is.
You have to get stronger and if possible, lighter. Hit the gym harder and lay of the pies. I've picked up a grade (indoors)since January with a bit of effort and I can do more (still not laying of the pies enough).
Also look after your confidence and lead the harder stuff when it feels right.
I'm in the same boat but I'm sure I know what the answer is.
You have to get stronger and if possible, lighter. Hit the gym harder and lay of the pies. I've picked up a grade (indoors)since January with a bit of effort and I can do more (still not laying of the pies enough).
Also look after your confidence and lead the harder stuff when it feels right.
In reply to JonC:
Hi Jon, I highly recommend the book '9 out of 10 climbers make the same mistakes' It should help you to think about the way you're climbing and hopefully pin point areas you're weak on. The idea is think about what climbing you tend to avoid and climb that more. For me I'm strong on slab but weak on overhanging problems, so now I make sure to do a lot of overhanging until I feel my body can't it anymore at which point I can switch to climbing slabby problems to end my session.
Also bouldering will help your technique and strength as well as boost your confidence making dynamic moves. If you can make consistent dynamic moves on a boulder you won't double think the same move 20 meters up a wall
Hope it helps.
Hi Jon, I highly recommend the book '9 out of 10 climbers make the same mistakes' It should help you to think about the way you're climbing and hopefully pin point areas you're weak on. The idea is think about what climbing you tend to avoid and climb that more. For me I'm strong on slab but weak on overhanging problems, so now I make sure to do a lot of overhanging until I feel my body can't it anymore at which point I can switch to climbing slabby problems to end my session.
Also bouldering will help your technique and strength as well as boost your confidence making dynamic moves. If you can make consistent dynamic moves on a boulder you won't double think the same move 20 meters up a wall
Hope it helps.
In reply to monkeypunch:
Thanks - after the comments I received above I have gone back to 9/10 and am enjoying it this time around and finding it useful. I think I got bogged down in the earlier chapters 1st time around; it actually gets better further in. As you may notice from other threads; I'm trying to embrace all the things I have avoided for the last few years to try to give myself a kick start. Thanks for the post and helpful comments
Thanks - after the comments I received above I have gone back to 9/10 and am enjoying it this time around and finding it useful. I think I got bogged down in the earlier chapters 1st time around; it actually gets better further in. As you may notice from other threads; I'm trying to embrace all the things I have avoided for the last few years to try to give myself a kick start. Thanks for the post and helpful comments
In reply to JonC:
I think if your aim is to climb E2 again, then that's probably not that hard for you. You've been there before. If you want to take a quantum leap, learn to redpoint properly. Your redpoint grade ought to be (way) higher than 6b. Sport climbing allows you to train harder in (relative) safety. Your trad grade will sky rocket, unless you get so hooked on sport that you abandon trad altogether
I think if your aim is to climb E2 again, then that's probably not that hard for you. You've been there before. If you want to take a quantum leap, learn to redpoint properly. Your redpoint grade ought to be (way) higher than 6b. Sport climbing allows you to train harder in (relative) safety. Your trad grade will sky rocket, unless you get so hooked on sport that you abandon trad altogether
In reply to Stefan Kruger:
Yep, I'm going to try proper redpointing too. I did get into sports climbing quite a lot and did start to neglect my trad a little but I didn't do the sports thing properly. So I'm going to slot the two together now - redpointing and feed it back into trad. The sports onsighting I did manage made some of the trad stuff I'd previously found quite hard feel very easy physically. So if I combine the two properly, I should get there.
I'm also going to try a few other things really just to kick myself out of the rut I was in and see what sticks (ie. bouldering and more focussed training).
Yep, I'm going to try proper redpointing too. I did get into sports climbing quite a lot and did start to neglect my trad a little but I didn't do the sports thing properly. So I'm going to slot the two together now - redpointing and feed it back into trad. The sports onsighting I did manage made some of the trad stuff I'd previously found quite hard feel very easy physically. So if I combine the two properly, I should get there.
I'm also going to try a few other things really just to kick myself out of the rut I was in and see what sticks (ie. bouldering and more focussed training).
In reply to Stefan Kruger:
Agreed. I've recently shown a couple of people how to redpoint, each with a top onsight sport grade of around 6b+ and 6c. The former came within a few moves of redpoint 7b in two sessions. The latter came with a few moves of redpoinint 7b+, also in two sessions. I expect that both will get the tick next time round. And if they can do that they can climb at least a grade harder with maybe double the number of sessions.
> If you want to take a quantum leap, learn to redpoint properly. Your redpoint grade ought to be (way) higher than 6b.
Agreed. I've recently shown a couple of people how to redpoint, each with a top onsight sport grade of around 6b+ and 6c. The former came within a few moves of redpoint 7b in two sessions. The latter came with a few moves of redpoinint 7b+, also in two sessions. I expect that both will get the tick next time round. And if they can do that they can climb at least a grade harder with maybe double the number of sessions.
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