UKC

Hi all,

I've come up with an alternative method for belay building, which could make the process of escaping the system simpler, quicker and easier. I've made a video detailing this approach and would appreciate input on the pros and cons

youtube.com/watch?v=6B1RIQy1mog&

As I see it here are they are...

advantages
Quicker to escape the system
Simpler system - one method to be used whether anchors are in reach or out of reach, easier to learn and remember.
Less equipment required - no need for prussics, slings etc. the latter of which a climber may have used on pitch or when building the belay so realistically may not be available.
A more comfortable belaying experience - easier to place the live rope so it doesn’t run over your leg or genitals
Abseiling in an emergency could be quicker and simpler as it would just require spare rope to be clipped into the loop.
No need to lower the climber slightly when escaping the system (might be important if the climber is stuck in a crack)

disadvantages
Slightly increased impact force on anchors during a fall
Using a belay plate is trickier unless the loop is tied close to the harness

Cheers,
Colin

In reply to colin8ll:
Pointless. Put a fig8 to one anchor~slack~fig8 into the other anchor. Equalize the slack and tie another fig8, which you then belay off.

In reply to colin8ll:

I like that a lot. The alpine butterfly truly is the king of knots. You certainly made it look simple with apparently no change to my normal practice except for adding a loop in.

Have you tried it with the belay plate needing to be in front of you? I imagine that it could be a little awkward with the plate being a foot further from your reach?

In reply to CorR:

I personally don't like using figure 8s in my stance. I like knots that are more easily undone after loading and I don't like the faff that comes with adjusting tension to the anchors when using figure 8s. (I do however tie in with a figure 8).

In reply to colin8ll:
That looks familiar - I used that system on my SPSA assessment 16 years ago (and it wasn't new then).

I only use it very rarely these days because...

On multi pitch routes I tend to set up the belay with a cordelette.

On single pitch routes it is unlikely that I will need to escape the system. If I did it is likely that I would be able to remove my harness and borrow one from someone else.

You still need to carry prussiks to enable you to abseil down to a stuck / injured climber.

In reply to colin8ll:

I'm afriad to say I've seen this before as well. What I don't get is the point of it all I'm afriad. I generally use double ropes when I'm out climbing and I've learnt how to escape the system from any normal set-up. This just looks like you're adding more knots and more faff into it all?

In reply to colin8ll:

I never get the 'it's easier to escape the system' argument. In 25 years of climbing I've had to do it twice - none of these in a professional context.

My main concern with the fixation on easy ways to get out of the system is they forget about all the judgement calls/decisions we should be making to avoid situations where escaping the system becomes a reality.

Re your set-up the one thing you have in there that is potentially dangerous is the belay plate clipped to the Alpine butterfly. It's easy to have the alpine butterfly such that your belay plate is effectively behind you. This means potentially the breaking rope cannot be brought back to behind the plate hence you reduce amount of breaking force you can potentially exert. Now you run the risk of dropping your second.

Another point is it seems such a pointless faff to set-up. I'm keener to spend my time climbing (clip/clip) than rummaging around with lot's of knots at the top. FWIW it is possible to clip into multi-point anchors just using the rope and a couple of krabs way quicker plus once you learn hot to escape the system it's pretty quick to do. The main point in escaping the system is working to what you plan to do next not just get off the rope.

As others have pointed out this method has been around in various shapes or forms for a lot of years. Not a method I am keen myself for the main reason outlined above - the position of the belay plate and the potential for having the plate behind you and therefore reduced ability to bring the rope behind the plate to brake.

In reply to colin8ll: Nice Video. like everything there are many ways to skin a cat. One point I would add is I prefer a french prussic infront as it is much easy to realease under the weight of a real climber.

Also if simplicity is the aim, why use a alpine butterfly when a fig 8 or over hand would do the trick? I know the answer is easier to undo and three way loading, but both of these other knots would still be safe in this set up.

Thank you all for the feedback. I didn't realize versions of this system have been around for a long time - it seems obvious but I've never seen them in any text book on rope work.

In reply to EZ: I have used the system with a belay plate and it works fine so long as you create a small loop and keep it close to your harness. This way although the plate may be 6 inches or so behind you, you can still comfortably hold the braking rope behind the device for an effective arrest.

In reply to george mc: I don't think there is more faff than a normal set-up - just one extra knot which takes 3 seconds to tie - and there is considerably less faff when escaping, but I do take your point that prevention is better than cure.

In reply to colin8ll:

It looks elegant.

I suppose one criticism is that it's an unnecessary link in the chain.

The alpine butterfly is essentially just a way of linking the anchors to the belay plate (through you). Why not just use a direct belay?

In reply to CorR:
Ditto.

>Put a fig8 to one anchor~slack~fig8 into the other anchor. Equalize the slack and tie another fig8, which you then belay off.

I teach a variation on that method to instructors and it is what is taught on the SPA course I have worked on.

Tie fig-8 in your rope and clip to closest/best anchor with a bit of slack. Clip rope through 2nd anchor (and 3rd anchor if needed). Pull the ropes towards you and tie a overhand knot to equalise them all. Clip yourself to the knot and then belay from it.

The main advantage is that you can escape in two stages. First you unclip from the belay point and can move around but remain safe. That means you are then immediately in a perfect position to rig a hoist or a counter balance abseil or to abseil done to your second. If needed you can then untie completely.

PS I've never 'needed' to escape the system. In nearly 20 years I have only had to rig a hoists on three occasion when personal climbing. As such, I think planning to escape the system when generally out climbing is fairly pointless.

Equally when instructing it is rare I would be overly worried about it. On multi-pitch routes if I was, I'd use my Reverso in guide mode instead so don't need any new system.

I use the set-up described above regularly but mainly for the advantages it gives in terms personal safety it gives when rigging at the edge of cliffs and for the ability it gives to easily pause half-way through a session. However, I do think it provides a good option to bear in mind for various scenarios.

In reply to colin8ll:

I admire your dedication in putting the video together, but I do believe its a solution in need of a problem.

The number of occasions where escaping a loaded system is of any use is vanishingly small. 9 times out of 10 the answer is to lower your partner to a safe ledge rather than leave then dangling in their harness.

In reply to GrahamD:

Speaking as someone who has rescued an unconscious partner from high on an alpine wall, my advice would be to just carry a knife- cut the rope and then jump off yourself. The arse-on with rescuing people when they're a dead weight really isn't worth it. Avoid the risk- once you're in a position when you need to do any of this, you're basically dead anyway and if not, you'll improvise a way round.

You'll be in more danger if you make a habit of spending more time constructing elaborate belays.

In reply to colin8ll:

quite cute, I do like it, but really it is just another way of building a direct belay.

A French prussic would be better for recovering the belay plate as you can release it even under load, you'd struggle with that style

In reply to colin8ll:

Your video is blocked in Germany as it appears you have not paid the performing rights fee for the music.

In reply to colin8ll:
Colin, as others have said, you have built a form of direct belay, and there are many other ways of doing this which have the advantage that a reverso can be used in guide mode and hence solve the issue of escaping the system - at least when bringing up the second. With a normal direct belay you are already removed from the system and don't even need to tie the plate off (a simple overhand clipped to the rope will do).

I did try your method many years ago after a friend showed it to me. The main problem is that because the belay plate is slightly further away it puts a twist in your back (you can see this in your video) or makes you lean more forward. Both are a real pain after a few hours.

Thanks for the video. It explains it really well.

In reply to colin8ll:

I've tried out a similar belaying method (belaying off a small overhand loop tied just in front of the tie-in loop) after being shown it by an instructor.

I used it to bring up a moderately heavy second who was repeated weighting the rope. The extra couple of inches between me and the belay device made managing the device an awkward and uncomfortable (backache) experience.

In reply to colin8ll:

Nice video colin. Interesting solution, only time I'd use it personally though would be when my second HAD to complete the pitch, and it was 50:50 whether they'd manage it (and would need an assited hoist for whatever reason).