UKC

Listening to the radio I just heard someone say 'Its a bit chicken and egg'. Well, we have known for some time that the egg came first (birds evolved from dinosaurs, so whatever ancestor a chicken came from must have come from an egg).

So this otherwise articulate woman was saying 'it's a bit egg', or maybe 'it's not very chicken', which isn't what she meant at all.

Maybe it's a bit picky, but I find use of this sort of phrase rather lazy. Anyone have any similar examples of outdated sayings?

JBS Haldane

In reply to bullybones: If I were to call you call you a silly sausage, would you present me with a proof that shows you aren't actually a sausage?

In reply to EeeByGum:
If I were to call you call you a silly sausage, would you present me with a proof that shows you aren't actually a sausage?

Could be difficult, I'm assuming the OP is mostly made of meat and is covered in an outer skin designed to retain that meat? Sounds like a sausage to me.

In reply to bullybones: Still seems pretty descriptive to me, unlike for example "scything through". How many people know how a scythe feels?

In reply to bullybones:

My advice to you is to try to accept that idiomatic language moves more slowly than scientific discovery. If the mountain will not come to Mohammed...(sorry for any historical inaccuracy).

In reply to bullybones:

"Hats off to...." - hardly anyone ever wears a hat now let alone takes it off in response to something.

In reply to EeeByGum:

I am far more interested in why sausages are considered silly. Ok, I've never had one reply when I talk to it, but I've always liked them nonetheless.

In reply to bullybones: A favourite bugbear is "How long is a piece of string?"

Well, there are many answers to this. The first that comes to mind is

Twice as much as half of it.

Permutations on this are;

Four times longer than a quarter of it.

Three times as long as a third of it.

etc.

In reply to GrahamD:
Good one. 'Fly in the ointment' might be past it's sell-by, as most ointment now comes in tubes.

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

Ha. I got caught being clever with the 'how long is a piece of string' thing.
Someone asked me if they could borrow some cash, so I mailed back to say ok, how much, she mailed back to say 'how long is a piece of string?'

So I mailed her a photo of a piece of string which happened to be 143mm long. Her reply was £143 will do nicely. Ta.

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

A quick internet search suggests that 475 feet is a popular length for White Cotton 10-Ply (Medium).

In reply to bullybones:
"You've been hoisted with your own petard".

I've never met anyone who had a petard. For that matter, I don't think I've met anyone who's ever been "hoisted" either.

In reply to bullybones:
"A Bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" is rarely heard either these days. Mostly because somebody has always got something crude to say in reply.

My favourite old saying though is the warning I was given by an old lady when I was moving flat last year, but doing so at the weekend: "Saturday flit - short sit..."

In reply to bullybones: I fear this thread is neither arse nor breakfast time

In reply to MG:

From which end?

In reply to bullybones:


... as indeed might "Sell By" itself, as most things now have a 'Use By' date instead.

In reply to paul-1970:

Since the advent of good quality long range artillery I don't think anyone has been. Could stand a bit of updating though as the sentiment is still within it's sell-by date.

For the internet generation maybe "hooked by your own troll" might suffice?

In reply to toad:
well no need to ride roughshod over it.

In reply to bullybones: It's not an outdated saying. You might want to read this .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_or_the_egg

In reply to paul-1970:
"You've been hoisted with your own petard".

Slightly out of date since the invention of a reliable timing fuse.

In reply to john arran:
So 'past its sell-by' is past its sell-by but not quite past its use-by?

In reply to dunc56:

Not so. Quote from the wiki page: A simple view is that at whatever point the threshold was crossed and the first chicken was hatched, it had to hatch from an egg. The type of bird that laid that egg, by definition, was on the other side of the threshold and therefore not technically a chicken -- it may be viewed as a proto-chicken or ancestral chicken of some sort, from which a genetic variation or mutation occurred that thus resulted in the egg being laid containing the embryo of the first chicken. In this light, de facto, the argument is settled and the egg had to have come first.

In reply to bullybones:

"kill two birds with one stone" I find outdated and now use "get two birds stoned at once" which is much more contemporary

In reply to bullybones: I refare you to the Beastie Boys

Which came first the chicken or the egg
I egged the chicken then I ate his leg
Riding the trains in between cars
When I pull out the station your gonna get yours
Drive by eggings plaguing L.A. they just got my cousin ese!

Sometimes hard boiled sometimes runny
It comes from a chicken not a bunny dummy
People laugh it's no joke
My name's Yauch and I'm throwing the yoke

In reply to bullybones: It's not really an old saying as such, but a colleague always says "be that as it may"

gets on my wick

In reply to Game of Conkers:
'For my sins' gets on my wick (or is that on my electric cable) - the concept of sin is as outdated as Adam and Eve.

In reply to bullybones:

Best thing since sliced bread.

Do we still think of sliced bread as a very good thing? I tend to make or buy fresh and I'm not sure sliced is entirely the way forward ... I suspect I have too much thinking time on my hands.

Time on my hands.

Is time really on my hands? Where is time anyway? Can it be held?

In reply to bullybones:

You're as much use a one-legged man in an arse kicking contest.

Having watched many one-legged men this past week, I'd wager they'd be pretty dapper at arse kicking!

In reply to bullybones: Errrm, not sure that's quite how evolution works. I'm not sure you'll find many evolutionary biologists who'd be happy to say 'parent is x, offspring is not x.' Drawing actual divides with a generational degree of accuracy isn't actually that helpful in the messy business that is nature.

Another way of thinking about it might be to ask "who, specifically, was the first human." Again, it doesn't really work like that. i.e. parent not human, offspring human. If you were to have the skulls of every single generation between apes and modern man lined up in a great row, would you be able to put a marker down and say 'everything to the left of this is an ape, everything to the right is a human?'

Sorry for the hijack

I


Which reminds me...are we still so incredulous about whether it's butter or not?!? Surely after all these years we *can* believe it isn't butter!

In reply to ChrisBrooke:
No hijack I agree that evolution is a continuum of forms, but the answer to this question is unusually clear as evolutionary origins go, because it doesn't matter how fast evolution works: whatever you call a thing that came out of an egg, it wasn't always a chicken.

The question I think you're referring to is a different one: 'what came first, the chicken or the chicken egg'.

In reply to bullybones:
Maybe the most antiquated saying is the robot Kryten's saying from Red Dwarf: "If you don't gosub a program loop, you'll never get a subroutine"

In reply to bullybones: Ha! Quite right!

In reply to bullybones:

Read again - A SIMPLE view. Are you simple ?

In reply to bullybones:


Evolutionary biologists have of course argued this question to death, often with the help of large amounts alcohol.

Current consensus seems to be that the first chicken was an embryo, then came the adult, then its egg.

This is to be taken with a pinch of salt, of course, but I have seen this as concluding slides in several serious scientific talks.

The idea is that genes active at the phylotypic stage are more ancient, more slowly evolving, and more highly conserved both in sequence and spatiotemporal expression patterns than those active at earlier ("the egg") or later ("the chicken") stages.

In reality, and largely for practical reasons, the chickens in question are different species of fruitfly.

CB

In reply to dunc56:
The answer is simple, are you complicated?

In reply to AlisonSmiles:


At this moment in time I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

In reply to cb294:
You're right it must be an embryo chicken that came first. Or maybe a foetal one, as embryos all look pretty much the same. Drosophila ones, anyway!

If you think this translates to anyone outside a lab, then you're really pushing the envelope now.

In reply to bullybones:

I still use the "chicken and egg" saying, does that make me outdated? Besides, however you look at it any chicken had to come from and egg so it still seems valid to me.

I also use a scythe from time to time, what do other people use when they run out of petrol for their strimmer?

I don't kill birds with stones though, but I think people understand what it means without expecting it to be understood literally, which is why people call it a "saying".

One I don't understand is: "that doesn't cut any ice for me!" so I don't use it.

In reply to bullybones: you'll be going to the 7th circle then...

I work in slough, for my sins.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I suppose it still has meaning - when people say 'it's a bit chicken and egg' I can let it go, but when they go the whole hog and say 'what came first....?', I find it so distracting I just have to say 'the egg'. Like when people say 'it's as broad as it's long' I just think of a square.

Nothing to do with outdated sayings, but baffling: 'It doesn't cut the mustard' - you can cut mustard with your finger!

In reply to gingerdave13:
Must be like Dante's Inferno there.

In reply to bullybones:


Probably not before it is ground up into paste. But I agree that that is the exception that proves the rule.

In reply to bullybones: roasty toasty..

In reply to bullybones:

For fear of this turning into a 'what i hate people saying' thread i hate the saying 'Rinky Dinks' what are they and can i hit you with one?

In reply to bullybones:
"Once every Preston Guild" becomes meaningless for the next week

In reply to Chris the Tall: "you can lead a horse to water, but a pencil has to be lead"

Oh really? not anymore . Graphite usually

In reply to Game of Conkers: "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"

Tell that to someone with HIV. Now redundant or needs updating

In reply to bullybones:

'Turns up like a bad penny'

What the hell does it mean?

In reply to MG:

Why is how it feels important?

<Whoosh> Over my head...

In reply to bullybones:

Is it? Frankly, I couldn't give a tinkers' cuss

In reply to bullybones: anyone for a chocolate teapot?

In reply to bullybones:

Certainly doesnt annoy me as much as when people say 'to coin a phrase' then just repeat repeat a well known phrase coined by someone else in the dim and distant.

In reply to bullybones:

Ah but you forget about transition. So the first chicken would have been proceeded by a proto-chicken which would have laid proto-chicken eggs. therefore the chicken came first because the egg it came from was laid by a near-chicken.


Context please in what was this in reference to?


LOL

In reply to The New NickB:
Yes, that's annoying. In any case, 'coin' is hardly used in that sense as a verb, 'mint' is what they're after.

And 'It will all come out in the wash.' Well, it feckin well won't all come out if it's a fast dye designed to chemically bond with the target fabric.

In reply to Mr_Yeti:
Only a fopdoodle or a jobbernowl wouldn't know what that meant.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:
See above for discussion: an embryo chicken came in an egg laid by your proto-chicken. Although the embryo was certainly formed before the egg was laid, it was still an embryo, not anything you could call a chicken.

Context? A patient with MS discussing why more MS sufferers don't come out publically - is it the stigma, or is it that the lack of public awareness causes the stigma? Well, it's a bit chicken and egg.

In reply to bullybones:
Num Num has no idea what came first out of the chicken and the egg. But he knows what came next.... The KFC Boneless Banquet For One.

In reply to bullybones:

So are we saying that it is only a chicken once it has emerged from the egg (in which case it is a chick and only becomes a chicken when it has grown up a bit).


Hm I see what you mean, definitely horses for courses.

In reply to bullybones:

I actually prefer the phrase "six or two threes"


This phrase originates from the Old English craft of Mustard making.

The chief mustard maker or Mustardeer would make their mustard in large oaken barrels, allowing each barrel to mature for a number of months. This maturing of the mustard produced a thick, leathery crust at the top of the barrel which would need to be removed before the contents could be tested.

The consistency of the crust would be such that a specialised cutting implement was required to remove it. Initially a modified scythe was used but this often lead to the crust being 'dragged' at certain points and falling into the rest of the mustard causing it to lose some of its distinctive flavour.

Over many years a specialised blade was developed that had an extremely thin leading edge which widened towards the centre and then tapered at the trailing edge although not to a sharp point. This allowed the blade to skim the majority of the topcrust off, leaving a very thin slice which would be left on to protect the mustard.

Due to the coarse, leathery nature of the topcrust the blade, over time, would develop dull spots along it's length and thus required constant monitoring.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Right, because before that you still had no chicken.


Different folks for different strokes. Some of 'em even quit interferon.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:
That only skims the surface.

In reply to bullybones:

Has anyone mentioned 'sound like a broken record' yet?

In reply to bullybones:

Not so fast... coin is from Old French verb coigner, to mint. Apparently it originally meant the die for stamping money, only later the product of the stamping.

Yours, Reg Smeaton

In reply to bullybones: "Working up a head of steam" (and similar) - somewhat outdated now.

In reply to bullybones:

'Injected with a gramaphone needle' for somebody who talks a lot. ()

In reply to Dave Garnett:
Fair play Reg. Hoist by my own petard. By the way, Hubert says he's invented a magnet that picks up wood.

In reply to bullybones:
Finger Lickin' Good

In reply to Mark Kemball:

I've gone through this thread with a fine toothcomb, and your example is solid as a rock. Most are just coals to Newcastle, but yours shines like a beacon in the pitch darkness.

Right. Here's another (kind of reverse) example, tragic because people think they are being modern when they say it: 'It's in our cultural DNA'. Aaaaaaargh, this increasingly drives me mental. If it's cultural, it's a meme, it's the exact opposite and counterpart of genes and DNA. Dopes!

In reply to bullybones:
And what the hell is a meteoric rise? Surely meteors plummet.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:
Yeah, it's not rocket science. Wait a minute...

In reply to bullybones:

the notion of "horse power, cant we have something else

like say .002 Turboprops of power

or .0000000000003 Fusions of power

would be all so much handier and more modern

what kind of horse was it anyhow, a shire, a miniature shetland?

A standard EEC horse?

In reply to Daithi O Murchu: This thread certainly has the wind in its sails.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

thing is Horse, wind and steam will be making a come back in 150 yrs

how outmoded will "where my F**n charger" be then

In reply to bullybones:

runs like clockwork

In reply to Daithi O Murchu:

God, no. It was an imperial horse, obviously.

Various foreigners had their own horses but weaker than ours.

In reply to bullybones:
One phrase I always used to hate was "well some of us live in the real world".
Actually ALL of us live in the real world

In reply to bullybones: "They don't know their arse from their elbow".

I mean , how many people have you honestly come across that dont?

Ah, mind you. Yes. Well.

T.
Nothing to see here...

In reply to Duncan Bourne: Quite a lot of us exist in the online world as well. In the real world, perhaps to my detriment, I am somewhat more than a stage direction.

T.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

More correctly, a subjective construct of the real world. At least where I'm sitting

In reply to bullybones:

Don't overdo the 'subjective' bit, or we'll have to resort to the commonsense of Dr Johnson.

In reply to bullybones:

outdated sayings like " there's plenty more fish in the sea"

In reply to Daithi O Murchu:

Passing, presumambly without the benefit of modern navigation systems, like ships in the night.

In reply to bullybones: Would these ships have their colours nailed to the mast?

In reply to bullybones: While sailing too close to the wind?

In reply to Simon4: loose lips sink ships

In reply to Game of Conkers:
Shame really...'Don't spoil the ship for a ha'penny's worth o tar'

In reply to Simon4:

Not outdated at all!

In reply to dek:
I'm still quite fond of 'You can't have your cake and your ha'penny', much better than '...eat it'.

In reply to bullybones:

Actually the phrase should be "fine-toothed comb". There's no such thing as a toothcomb, not even a fine one, at least not in my bathroom. But with the shoe on the other foot, we could go on quoting phrases and mis-phrases like this until the cows come home.

In reply to bullybones:
This thread seems to be running out of steam. Is it early doors for it yet? Or am I jumping the gun?

In reply to paul-1970:
Not wishing to split hairs here, and i hate putting too fine a point on it, you're simply nit picking over a comb, I think you should put the tin lid on it, and sweep it under the carpet?

In reply to paul-1970:
I don't mind the saying, in fact I quite like it, it being often apposite in my own life! What quite annoys my pedantic nature is that it's so frequently mis-quoted - it's "hoist with his own petard". Means the same but in "Olde Englishe". I now prefer the mangled version of the same sentiment as expressed in a typical moment of anguish and frustration by the great Tony Hancock: "Shot with me own gun"!

In reply to bullybones:

Very true. I suppose using the phrase in Second life would have ironic clout

In reply to bullybones:
What is it with "early doors" in Yorkshire? Doesn't make any sense. it was "early days" where I grew up.

As for "this won't get the baby a new bonnet" I try to avoid, since being a post-feminist I rarely, if ever, make babies bonnets. however, I do quite frequently butter parsnips so I find I get by ok.

In reply to paul-1970:

no that hiatus was just a "flash in the pan"

dont over react - "keep yer powder dry"

In reply to bullybones:

There are plenty of old sayings still about, that came from Britain's nautical past. A couple that come to mind are:

The bitter end

Batten down the hatches

Full steam ahead

In reply to James B:

All hands to the pumps

In reply to James B:

Knowing the ropes

Shot across the bows

Loose cannon

In reply to James B:

Copper bottomed

Three sheets to the wind

In reply to bullybones:

A chicken and an egg walk into a bar and the Barman says "Right, who's first?"

In reply to James B:


"Good square meal"

"Cold enough to freeze the balls on a brass monkey"

"Take the wind out of his sails"

In reply to Trangia:

"Show his true colours"

"Try a new tack"

In reply to bullybones: The thing with nautical terms though is that whilst they may have come from the age of sail, they are not actually outdated. They are still perfectly sound nautical analogies and still current.

So 'chicken and egg' may have been disproved, but 'sailing close to the wind' is still accurate and current.

In reply to Wonko The Sane:

Originated in Great War and in common use during WW2. Now rarely used

"When the balloon goes up"

In reply to Wonko The Sane:

Er... Loose cannon? Over a barrel? Groggy? Not much grog around these days

In reply to bullybones: I think all of you are putting the cart before the horse.

Is the standard EU horse on a treadmill? That's what I want to know. The standard length of a piece of string is twice the distance from the middle to one end.

In reply to marsbar:


Ahh, but which end ?

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Eggzactly. Trying to solve the "Chicken and egg" conundrum is just tilting at windmills. The very point of the simile is that one is comparing a situation where cause and effect are difficult to determine with one where drawing a line in the sand is futile.

In reply to bullybones:

old nautical terms are so useful

at least once i week i tell the missus " prepare to repel boarders"

In reply to bullybones:

Gordon bennett

He's not behind the back door

There are millions more to track through here:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/a.html

How many have you heard?

In reply to bullybones:

'Beggars belief' is a phrase i've always had a problem with. Politicians and journalists seem very fond of this phrase but i just don't get it. Classic example would be something like - 'What a ridiculous statement, it beggars belief that the new rate of income tax will cover that shortfall'. Is this a beg for a belief in itself or is this a reference to a beggar only believing it. Is it singular possessive or plural and shouldn't there be an apostrophe in there somewhere if it is?

In reply to Sebastian Fontleroy:

Well, no, beggar is simply being used here as a verb. It's just good old fashioned English, quite old fashioned admittedly, but it is our language. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/beggar

In reply to bullybones:

Outdated sayings like "wallah, bring me my riding breeches"

In reply to bullybones:

"believe you me"

Is incredibly poor from a grammatical perspective.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

A beggar(noun)is someone who begs(verb). So to modernise it should be 'it begs(for)belief'? Outdated saying anyway.

In reply to Kemics: Grammar is what people speak. So to say something is 'incredibly poor from a grammatical perspective' is meaningless; a bit like saying 'I don't think those whales aren't singing correctly.'

(With due acknowldegement to Stephen Pinker for the example.)

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I always thought grammar was defined as the rules that govern a language. At least if you follow the dictionary definition.

absurd pedantry aside about the definition of 'grammar'. The phrase 'believe you me' doesn't really make any sense, if you compare it to how we structure any other sentence in English. That's what I was trying to point out. nvm.

In reply to bullybones:
"You can't polish a turd; all you can do is roll it in glitter"

With liquid nitrogen I'm sure you could freeze it solid enough to have a good go at polishing it!

In reply to bullybones: i detest phrases that allude to being 100% natural products. The alternative being? I also find discussions regarding chickens and eggs amusing and pointless, as the whole point of the phrase is best explained by the previous poster with his MS example. Which i thought was very good. This whole thread is a bit like throwing snowballs at haystacks.

In reply to The Big Man: I disagree with the chicken and egg one being out of date, but "It's like painting the Forth Bridge" as a phrase for an eternal task is now out of date as the bridge now has a high-tech coating which will last for yonks.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Must say I do like the cut of your jib.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

You can't deny this sounds so much better than ' I like the smell of your engine'