UKC

I've got a new road bike coming without pedals. I'm going to take the plunge and clipless. There are so many different types what is the best type to get on a budget. What is the sizing of shoes like?

In reply to goldmember:
I've just gone clipless and so far so good. Advice I got was get one size bigger than street shoes. I have gone with SPDs, easier to walk on and at my speed all the stuff about racing shoes being stiffer, etc will make no difference whatsoever

In reply to goldmember:

What type of bike?

In reply to orejas: Its great to have someone in similar position. Are you finding much difference in performance?

In reply to The New NickB: its a frome longclife. Any good?

In reply to goldmember:

Ok, road bike, that is all I meant. I would just go with the basic Shimano SPD-SL pedal or the 105 version if you want spend a few quid more.

In reply to orejas:

Really, why is that then?!? Surely you just buy a pair that fit you?


In reply to the OP:
Apart from buying a pair of shoes that fit there's nothing really complicated about it. Decide whether you're going to go for MTB or road cleats and find a pair you like the look of. For road cleats the Look Keo's are cheap, cheerful and light so probably as good a starting point as any.

In reply to The New NickB: Worth buying second hand to save a few pennies?

In reply to Aly:

I imagine it's because your feet can swell up a bit from pedaling - I have to loosen my shoes once I've got warmed up, or they're tight across my toes.

I have a pair of BNIB size 42 Cannondale road shoes for sale, if anyone is interested and around Reading area - they're the wrong size for me. Takes both road or MTB cleats (2 or 3 hole). £30, were £70.

In reply to goldmember:

I wouldn't bother unless money is really tight, the pedals can be had pretty cheaply, shoes are anything from £30 to £300.

In reply to goldmember:

i have a pair of of SPD-SL pedals and specialized carbon S-works shoes i would do you a cheap deal on?
i changed to MTB SPD's as i do a lot of city riding and walk about a fair bit.
PM me if your interested

In reply to goldmember:

Clipless is great, think I would find it hard to cycle any distance without them now. I have some cheapish SPD pedals and have no complaints, though I would advise you to set the release tension as low as it goes.

For the shoes, go and try some. I take 47-48 normally, but found Shimano would only fit in a 50! I then found some Specialized ones that are great in a 48.

In reply to orejas: i disagree on getting a size bigger. I've got a pair of carbon road shoes with a ratchet on and i find myself fitting them quite snug so there's no play when pulling the foot up.

In reply to goldmember:

Buy shoes that are adjustable

dont buy second hand as cleats come with pedals, so cheaper to buy a set of new pedals that have new cleats

If you have to walk any distance off the bike consider MTB style cleats/pedals and compatible shoes.

Also worth considering MTB ones anyway as a beginner because they are less likely to skid on floor when you put your foot down if a bit unstable

In reply to goldmember:

I heard all the stuff about getting a size bigger shoes.

Was told to definitely get a slightly bigger size as I was getting Sidi`s

I am 8(42) in every pair of shoes I have bought in the last 20 years.

So I ordered my Sidi`s in 42(8) and they fitted beautifully.

Not tight in any way.tiny bit of tolerance actually.

In reply to LastBoyScout:

This maybe sounds like the shape of the shoe is wrong for you, rather than the size.

If your feet swell, and mine never have excessively, then loosen off the velcro / ratchets.

To the OP.

Advice to buy larger would seem counter-intuitive when you consider how much effort manufacturers have put in to ensure you can ratchet your shoes snugly and have no slop in the shoe.
If you wear loose shoes and your feet move about then:
1. you are wasting energy that should be going from your legs to your pedals.
2. People do blister in road shoes - It's even more of a repetitive action than running.

Make sure they fit. With the straps done up, nothing should be overly tight. Should be able to wiggle the toes. Should be no heel lift. Should be no pressure points. Should be no rubbing.

As with climbing shoes any generic advice with regards to size is useless without discussing brand.

eg. I have some Specialized shoes in 42. I am a 42. Most of my boots, shoes, everything is 42.

I have some Shimano shoes. They are 43. could not get into 42! Some brands are known to be a tight fit. Shimano is one of them.

Try shoes on.

In reply to goldmember:
I understand the draw to go clipless. But don't get exited regarding performance. IMHO for the recreational and sport rider there are no great gains to be had.

Pros and cons from a safety point of view. Eg with flats your foot can be thrown off the pedal. Then the obvious need to put foot down cant clip out scenario which most clipless riders experience at least once.

In my return to road and mtb cycling ive gone for the simple approach of flats.
I have clipless in the garage that I dont use.
My Strava times are nothing to be ashamed of.

In reply to mikehike:

If pedaling technique is good then there is a noticable differance in performance

In reply to lost1977:

Im genuinely interested to see evidence demonstrating this.
Anyone have any web links.

In reply to goldmember:

SPD SL for me, I used to use plain old Spuds, but converted to SLs and have always been really please

In reply to mikehike:

Purely anecdotal but I put flats on my single speed for a short commute - for two days. Feet slipping off, less power up hills and generally feels like there's a lot less going into the drivetrain. Could be because I've been using cleats for years and it felt odd, but I can't imagine riding on flats on anything other than a Boris Bike.

In reply to mikehike: however I should perhaps qualify that by stating that I don't have a mountain bike, nor a BMX.

In reply to andy:
Regarding my technique, When I CYCLE im in fore aft balance on my bike with my legs grinding round meaning im not just pushing down at the power phase. My shoes provide grip on the pedal to allow pull through 6 oclock. I think the crux of the issue is the pull up between 7 - 1 oclock. With flat pedals you cant pull up but you can consciously lift the weight off the recovering pedal which eases the power leg. What does clipless give over and above this? Clipless you can lift the recovering leg with POWER easing the power leg further. But is this not just distributing the power source to a different muscle? Where does the extra power come from with clipless to create advantage?

Apologies if this is stealing the thread.

In reply to andy: No I'd agree with you, I hate flats now and would never go back, never feel half as fast or powerful if I am riding without my SPD's. The forgetting to clip out scenario has never happened to me, and in my experience the way the bike 'falls' makes you clip out automatically.

In reply to mikehike: You're not riding in a down backwards fashion anymore, you're riding in a 360 'Power' cycle. So there is no 'Power' and 'Resting' leg, you're providing power with both legs all through the cycle. Anyone who tells you SPD's don't make your riding more powerful probably hasn't used the properly for any sustained amount of time. Either that or the advantage is just psychosomatic for me, but it certainly makes a heck of a lot of difference in my experience.

In reply to Allan Thomson:
>you're riding in a 360 'Power' cycle. So there is no 'Power' and 'Resting' leg,
I think this may be the ideal technique which I apply when concentrating on technique with flat pedals. During a ride don't we all go through phases of different techniques? or are we robots and so trained to do one monotonousness technique?

Ive Google'd looking for evidence spd's are better, all I found was this:-
http://www.bikejames.com/strength/top-3-clipless-pedal-myths/

Im genuinely interested to see the evidence from a documented experiment to show the advantage of clipless for the sport rider.

In reply to mikehike: The thing is you can't do it without SPD's, because you don't get the power in the upstroke, you wouldn't get a full 360 power cycle because you're not applying any sort of upward force to the pedals when you are pulling up without a clip.. I'm sure there must be more than enough Data about the advantages out there, but they are logically obvious if you just think about it anyway.

In reply to mikehike:

Not sure what you mean by a 'sport rider', but i'm a reasonably competent club cyclist and i don't know anyone who rides flat pedals - not even the steel frame, downtube shifter crew - surely generations of toe-clips and cleats can't be wrong?

I can only say that my feet slipped off a lot in my two or three days commuting on flats, and they've never slipped off on my speedplays. I have, however,unlike Allan, fallen off whilst clipped in to the enormous amusement of various mates and motorists.

I find the ability to pull up does actually provide real benefits especially when you have to apply real power - ie for example riding hard up a hill. Furthermore you should be aiming to spin a higher cadence (most say 90-100 rpm is an ideal, but I preferred 120 rpm) you need clipless to keep your strokes measured and equal and as I said apply equal power throughout.

The type of riding they are describing as being 'beneficial' in the MTB articles is slower using higher gears - one which if you do it too slowly and in too high a gear you won't get faster, but you will screw your knees up. Plus I'd discount that article anyway as it's only written from a mountain bike perspective which is often a different style to that of road riding - more time out of the saddle, lower cadences and generally at slower speeds than road riding.

In reply to Allan Thomson:

You have 250 watt hrs available in your body.
(Flats) You have quads trained to put out 250 watts in an hr.
or
(Spd's) You have combined quads / hamstrings to give 250 watts in an hr.

Where does the extra energy come from with clipless?

In reply to goldmember: i've recently gone 'clipless' (why isn't it called clipped?) and have noticed a significant improvement in speed- maybe 2-3km/hr
i got the shimano a530 spd pedals and dhb c1.0 shoes for under 70 from wiggle..

In reply to mikehike: the upstroke?

In reply to andy:
My meaning of sport rider would include club cyclists.
Back in the day when you saw a rider with toe clips and straps you knew he was a serious cyclist, so when the time came to purchase a road bike and the lycra shorts we had to have the clips and straps (before helmet days) A lot of the cycling industry is like this , if the guy with the muscles is using them then they must be good so we dig deep and buy them.

My meaning of sport rider would include club cyclists.


A disadvantage ive found with flats is feet coming off the pedals.
This can happen when selecting the wrong gear for current speed, your cadence goes through the roof and feet come of the pedals.
Pot holes can throw feet of the pedals also.
But I think this can be fairly balanced out with the cons of spd's not clipping out fast enough.

In reply to malk: Your implying im missing the point.
You have a finite amount of energy to give during the ride. You can give it in the down or divide it between the down and up? Where does the extra energy come from?

In reply to mikehike: Did you miss the point about high cadences? Crunch gears and you'll teach yourself to pedal slowly in high gears and screw up your knees, plus you won't be able to accelerate as effectively. Teach yourself to spin at high cadence, then you can shift up to the higher gears as you build up speed and spin the same high cadence which equates to faster speeds.

Then there's the benefits of aerobic respiration over anaerobic - higher cadence means you respire aerobically, rather than the anaerobic respiration which high gear crunching involves. Therefore you can keep a sustained higher effort up for longer.

Using more muscles is always going to equate to more power and overtraining and placing the focus on just one muscle group increases the probability of injury. Spreading the load is much better. If you are only using your quads then you are putting a lot more loading through your knees.

I came from a fellrunning background onto the bike, and got a lot faster riding with clipless pedals that tootling round on flats, plus had far more power to put through the pedals at all time. By all means train your quads to be strong, but why on earth sacrifice the extra added benefits of using other muscle groups.

If flat pedalled cycling really gave that much benefit over clipless then at least some of the teams would be doing it. They're not and that should tell you something.

Furthermore the type of pedalling you're talking about leads to fits and spurts rather than a steady speed, makes for more unbalanced riding (hence bike wiggling, especially when going uphill), and is dangerous in a bunch - which is where the real speed gains are to be found.

In reply to mikehike:

Oh FFS as well as in the liver, each muscle stores glycogen. Use more muscles, the more glycogen is available at the site it being used, overuse the glycogen by making one muscle work harder than the other and the more glycogen has to be transported to it so the more you get knackered.


The difference is obvious from using clipless and you experience a real difference when you transition from flats from the onset even though hitherto you've been training yourself to put power through on the down and back stroke. I felt the benefits and bear in mind that I'd come from a sport (fellrunning, also did a bit of racewalking) which placed a lot of emphasis on downward force (which is basically identical to your downward back push you are talking about. So why would I notice the difference with clipless given that my legs were already trained to give a lot of downward force directed through the quads (which is what you use when you are fellrunning uphill?

I feel like the obvious benefits have been spelt out to you, but you continue to question them, so it feels like banging my head against a brick wall. Are you trying to troll?

In reply to Allan Thomson:
I do currently spin high cadence.

>Using more muscles is always going to equate to more power
>overtraining and placing the focus on just one muscle group increases the >probability of injury. Spreading the load is much better. If you are only >using your quads then you are putting a lot more loading through your >knees.

If the recovering leg is pulling up, the opposite pushing leg is either giving positive (pushing), neutral (same force as pulling leg) or negative force (braking effect). If its negative then we are wasting energy. If its neutral then both legs legs are sharing the effort. If its positive then the recovering leg is going to act as a brake. So to be efficient there is only one answer = neutral. I dont see how that gives more power.

With flats I TAKE the weight of the recovering leg but not so much to lift it off the pedal in a CYCLING motion, the work is done on the down stroke.
So yes do you iether share the finite energy between the front and back muscles or just use the front muscles. Im not sure either way whats best but admit its difficult to argue against sharing over two muscles.



>If flat pedalled cycling really gave that much benefit over clipless then >at least some of the teams would be doing it. They're not and that should >tell you something.
Ive never stated flats are better, my original statement was " But don't get exited regarding performance. IMHO for the recreational and sport rider there are no great gains to be had"

>Furthermore the type of pedalling you're talking about leads to fits and >spurts rather than a steady speed, makes for more unbalanced riding (hence >bike wiggling, especially when going uphill), and is dangerous in a bunch >- which is where the real speed gains are to be found.

I ride rollers in the garage with flats, I have a smooth technique, im not nudging the bike forward every stroke.

In reply to Allan Thomson:

Im not trolling.
Like I said earlier, please show me the evidence from the www.
Im genuinely open to being 'shown the way' and to start using them again if I were to Need the claimed advantage.

I agree TDF riders are using clippless for a reason. But for a sport rider show me the advantage gains, ive searched and only found myth busters thus far.

In reply to mikehike: if there's an advantage for the pros why would there not be an advantage for us punters? We ride the same bikes and use the same muscles.

And I did that Roberto Uran on a strave segment yesterday...

In reply to mikehike: You've missed the rest of what I said - including my own very real experiences of the benefits despite the sports I came from. I notice you haven't done anything to consider what I've said in my second posting after the one you've selectively quoted bits from.

Let's put this very simply - you have to lift your left anyway to pull through as you said otherwise you are applying negative force. Now is that upward motion going to be relatively wasted (ie disconnected from the pedals) or is it going to actually do something to turn the pedals whilst you're doing it - in which case you need to be connected to the pedals to do it? And your quad is never going to grow the size that it could be more powerful than the action of both it and the quads combined. Plus you still have to lift your 'super'quads on the upstroke so is the energy used going to be just used to lift that quad, or is it actually going to turn those pedals while you are at it? Do anything other than turn the pedals and it's energy wasted.

In reply to Allan Thomson:

We are just going round in circles here, chicken and egg. LOL

The recovery can be free or working, if working then pushing leg does less, so energy is shared.

TBH I cant think of an argument against sharing across 2 muscle groups being beneficial.

In reply to mikehike:

It's not about extra energy, it is about efficiency! It's really not difficult.

In reply to andy:
Agreed. But i did say dont expect great gains and still yet to find evidence on the web of what the level of advantage is?
For something so techy It should be out there.

In reply to The New NickB:
>It's not about extra energy, it is about efficiency! It's really not difficult.

I was arguing about Allans:
>Anyone who tells you SPD's don't make your riding more powerful probably >hasn't used the properly for any sustained amount of time

I was asking where does the extra power come from

In reply to goldmember:
I started off with SPDs but changed to Look road pedals and wouldn't go back, far more efficient and comfortable

In reply to mikehike:

Its that you don't lose the power that gets wasted without clipless pedals. It's like comparing running on soft sand (flat pedals)with running on a solid surface

In reply to mikehike:

Not "great gains" but from personal experience it's "better". It's a bit like the GPS vs map and compass argument - they bot work, but one's a bit easier.

And perhaps the reason the evidence isn't there is because it's so bleedin' obvious?

In reply to kevin stephens:

You have to explain that better.
I agree sharing power over two legs would be more efficient.
therefore using one leg to push must be more wasteful. And if more wasteful then must be loosing power but my brain just dont see it.

In reply to mikehike:

No I don't - I go off experience. As do all the other cyclists using them. Try it yourself and see

In reply to mikehike:

The extra power comes from greater efficiency, your legs arnt throwing out more watts, but you are throw fewer away!

In reply to Allan Thomson: Nice explanations Allan, they answered many of my questions about why clipless is so much better and also about how/why to apply technique to get the most out of them...

BW!

In reply to mikehike:


To be honest I think if you can't get your head round this I suspect that most of this thread is futile (or perhaps a bit of a wind up?).

The link you posted earlier really seems to be a bit weird. I'm not sure I'd be happy taking cycling advice from someone who clearly can't even spell 'pedal'. The 'myths' about standing up being as efficient as sitting, and that there is no use in the 'pull' phase when generating maximum power seem to contradict cycling opinion that is pretty much taken as a given. I imagine the result of Cav trying to sprint in flats would be him disappearing backwards through the peleton!

Out of interest, what search terms were you using in pubmed or whatever when you were looking for stuff online? I found a couple of articles on the first page which look interesting but I must admit I haven't searched any more thoroughly than that. They suggest that a measurement of Dead Centre (DC) correlates with higher efficiency (or gross efficiency as they call it). It's measured using the fore/aft power at the 6/12 o'clock positions as a fraction of the overall power. With flats, almost by definition, this figure is going to be considerably lower (approaching zero??) than with clipless pedals as the only thing allowing you to transer power to the pedals at this point is the friction between your shoe and the pedal as you try to move your shoe parallel to the pedal surface.

Unfortunately they haven't tested flats vs clipless because I suspect getting funding for such an experiment would be about as difficult as trying to get funding to test if round wheels really are faster than square ones (rightly or wrongly, but the efficiency savings from clipless pedals are seen as obvious to most).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20798659
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21437606

In reply to mikehike: I'm afraid I'm with all the others on the "it's obvious if you use both" position - but one thing that hasn't been said is that when MTBing, rather than road biking, my bike handling is much better with spuds. I can jump the bike around, control skids and wobbles etc etc easier when clipped in than when not.

Somewhere between the two arguments, from CX racing at an albeit very low level, the difference when getting back on the bike between cleanly re-clipping and missing your clip shows me how much more efficient being clipped in is.

Actually after further consideration I've also come to the conclusion that contrary to what the writer of the article suggests when you have to get out the saddle (where 360 rotation becomes slightly more difficult due to the way your weight is distributed, but never the less still possible - look at the way some of the top riders 'dance' on the pedals) that actually it's applying the power in the up stroke and pulling up which is even more important then (and it's only possible to utilise that upstroke properly with SPD's). The reason being that most of 'force' of the downward stroke whilst out of the saddle is contributed to by the power of gravity acting upon your bodyweight, therefore (to my mind) the most gains you can get is concentrating on making your upstroke powerful and letting gravity and your bodyweight do most of the work on the downs. Certainly when I am out of the saddle riding uphills I'm concentrating even more on that upstroke than the down one. Anyone can feel free to disagree with me, but it's worked for me, and it's impossible to do with flats.

Note* someone earlier made a reference to Looks. To explain when I am using the term SPD's I am using it as a slack shorthand for all clipless (clip in) systems. I tried to avoid using the term clipless too much as whilst it makes perfect sense to those of us who are into cycling, when someone is starting out it gets a bit confusing as they think of flats as being "clipless" and the SPD's/Look/Time pedals as being 'clips'. Whereas as we know Clipless simply refers to the fact that the pedal system does not require toe clips (because the cyclist is able to 'clip in'), and any none 'clip in' system of pedal without toe clips is simply a Flat. Perfect sense to us, but highly confusing to the uninitiated!....

In reply to The New NickB:

I thought of a good analogy in favour of clipless.

Imagine an ARM operated cycle machine.
You can either use Flat Palms on the pedals or Closed Hands around the pedals.
You would naturally use the closed hands when outputting great power. You may relax your hand to open position if coasting.

I concede clipless is the way to go for wasting less energy, and therefore an increase in power.

In reply to Aly:
I am getting my head around it, but it does seem strange not being able to find a side by side test, demonstrating the power loss of flat pedals.

In reply to kevin stephens:
I used to ride clipless, and have the pedals stowed in my garage.
I packed in cycling for say 15 year due to knee injury, which may have been caused by clipless. Since my return ive considered using them but im a) making great gains on flats, b) frightened they would side line me again.

Its the great gains using flats which makes me Question statements of 'You get more power with clipless@.

Well technically you will, but I cant find it quantified anywhere.

In reply to Allan Thomson:


Allan,

While I prefer clipless pedals, I think your reasoning is incorrect about the benefits.

I've previously seen a couple of studies that suggest that over 90% of pedalling power input comes from the downstroke. (now behind a login wall : http://www.edb.utexas.edu/coyle/pdf%20library/%2843%29%20Kautz,%20Feltner,%... sorry!)

In my experience, it feels more powerful to pull up, but only for a few pedal strokes. Trying to do that over a longer climb (20 minutes and more) is not feasible.

If you read articles from coaches (such as Joe Friel) then a lot of emphasis is placed on pedaling technique - forming the habits of making smooth circles with the feet. This may engage the calves/hamstrings more, but the major power input is still coming from the quads. If you look at the website for Wattbike trainers, one of their big selling points is the power curves produced per leg - the goal is not to find a method of increasing overall power output of the legs (by pulling up) but by training to produce optimum power output all the way round the stroke without any spikes, as these spikes will tire muscles more over longer efforts.

IMO, the big benefit of clipless systems for road biking is that they stop the feet slipping. No energy is lost in readjusting the foot. If the foot is in the right place and if the saddle is correctly positioned (those are quite big 'if's!!) then it makes it easier for the cyclist to pedal in the most efficent way over a period of hours - not just over a few strokes.

That's not to say that this is the major benefit for you - coming from a running background you may have started out with a particularly choppy pedaling style (just guessing - I don't know you) in which case concentrating on the upstroke may have been correct for you, not because it increases power through the stroke, but because it smooths out the stroke and makes pedaling more efficent.

In reply to mikehike:


My old Time pedals on my road bike had very little float in them and I got some knee pain. I swapped for the basic Shimano SPD-SLs a couple of years ago with the cleats that allow some float and haven't had a problem since then.

Last week in England I was riding my dad's mountain bike with my very old MTB clipless pedals on it - same thing; knee niggles. When I tried moving my foot a bit on the pedal they clipped out. On my Shimano SPDs on my CX and MTB at home I guess I've got used to having a bit of float and being able to move my foot a little if the knees twinge and hence no probs.

So if you are going to try again, buy some new pedals perhaps? I've had these for commuting forever http://www.merlincycles.com/bike-shop/mtb-parts/transmission-gears/pedals-m... which might work for you as you can ride the flat side some times if you wish. Mine have done 10s of thousands of kms with no issues and next to no care - I was them occasionally - so I can recommend them heartily!

In reply to TobyA:
I solved my knee problems by moving the cleats as far back as they would go. Also aligning cleats with feet's natural angle as they dangle from sitting on a table is important. I think cleat float is less important if they are aligned correctly (Toby you know this of course, just replying to thread in general)

thanks for all great advice. I have to get a train with my bike for part of my bike journey how slippery are spd-sl for when walking about? I maybe best with mtb clipless shoes?
what is this float angle?

In reply to TimB:

Clipless pedals are really just the modern version of the old rat-trap toe-clips. The first ones were by Look as they sought to move out of the ski binding market during the late 1980s.

I've seen graphs of power output where the comparison has been between amateur, club and professional cyclists rather than between flat and clipless pedals. Pro cyclists have a much more even power output around the whole pedal stroke whereas the others have marked low output around the 6 & 12 o'clock positions - these graphs are often described as peanut shaped.

Poor pedalling action seems to come about for a variety of reasons but I'd suggest the main one is not pedalling at the right cadence - most, hmm, hobby or part time cyclists tend to have a cadence well below 60rpm whereas a typical club cyclist will be pedalling around 85 - 110 rpm. At the lower cadence nearly all the power gets applied during the down stroke whereas at the higher rate momentum seems to force the legs in to redistributing some of the power to the upstroke. Getting rid of the flat spots is then really a matter of technique and is usually described as "wiping mud off the sole of your shoe" for the 6 o'clock position and needs a push forward before the foot reaches the 12 o'clock position.

ALC

In reply to goldmember:

float angle is the amount (usually measured in degrees) that the cleat can move in the pedals before they begin to disengage. I've Look Keos and they come in three degrees of float: black pedals have zero float; grey pedals have 7.5deg float and red pedals have 15deg float.

If you think you are going to be doing a bit of walking in your cycling shoes then I'd go for MTB style SPD pedals and cleats - there's nothing (other than possibly one of the rules) to say you have to use road pedals on a road bike. Quite a few riders on the Fred Whitton sportive use SPDs as there's a strong likelyhood of having to walk up Hardknott or Wrynose passes.

ALC

In reply to TobyA:
In the past I used
MTB: classic SPD's not much float, Onza HO's loads of float
Road: Look's not much float, Onza HO's loads of float

it may well have been the not much float pedals that started my knee issue.
After this above discussion im now researching clipless again .

Crank Brothers Candy's seem to be suitable for me in that for road riding I use a mutipurpose type cyclocross bike (not a true race cyclocross bike) In the summer shod with road tyres in the winter knobbly's.
The Candys are light, low cost, have a supporting platform and recessed cleat. I need to research the amount of float though.

If I were to fit eggbeaters to my MTB then I could use the same shoes.
Recessed cleat is important as comfort walking around off the bike is a high priority over performance.

In reply to goldmember:

SPD-SL use plastic cleats that really don't do well being walked on too much. They also provide poor traction on smooth surfaces like, for example, train station floors.

The MTB ones are MUCH better if you have any walking to do and the performance difference is nothing awesome, as long as you have well fitting shoes. I'd advise trying a few pairs on.

In reply to goldmember:

you will come to realise there's a lot of bull in cycling.

IMO you need separate mountain biking from road cycling. I'm no expert but have done a fair bit of MTB and visited all of the welsh trail centres and a few in England until my bike got stolen. I've also done the end to end in 8 days with my girlfriend who was into road biking.

If you've bought your road bike for going out to get big milage in and for cardio training, get yourself proper clip in road pedals SPD-SL (not the same as recessed spds). You'll want stiff shoes so you get all the power transfer into the bike with nothing wasted. SPDs and floppy shoes will lose lots of power and it just wont be efficient upwards of 50 miles a day.

If you want to just pootle about get flats. if you want to commute back and for to work via train stations etc, get flats.

I did 1500+ miles on my road cleats before I needed to change them out. Perhaps that's because I spend more time on the bike and less time at cake stops who knows?

The simple fact it is far more efficient. Yes you can stomp stomp stomp, but you can also pull pull pull which gives each sets of the major muscles a rest, you can also spin spin spin. Or a combination of all three! Anaerobic and Aerobic! Intervals and steady state cardio!

In reply to goldmember: Shimano SPD's double sided mtn bike (bout 35 to 40 quid) with recessed mountain bike shoe so you can walk ok when off bike but still have greater power than flats but not cost as much as road clip ins and shoes. They'll fit your road bike cranks; don't worry! Enjoy...

http://www.decathlon.co.uk/m-520-pedals-black-id_3169982.html

In reply to steveej: make sure you get the clears with float or youll screw your knees up.

In reply to steveej:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=5369&_$ja=tsid:4...

These are what I use. £22.99

In reply to The New NickB:

I reckon that.. first clipless.. SPD-SL.. cheap.. cheap shoes.. I love them, I only ride occassionally, but no issues at all..

In reply to goldmember: Correction - £29.99; bargain!!!!!

In reply to jules699: thanks folks some great advice and debate on here. I'll pop into evans and try some on during the week can wait

In reply to mikehike:

bloody hell, Onza HO's!! did you ride them on your MTB San Andreas or Alsop Beam?

I had a pair and they were fuggin awful. add to that and in cold weather the elastomers used to turn solid so it almost impossible to get out of them.

I've run flats, clips, Onzas, Looks, time and speeedplay. IMHO the supplesse (SP) approahc is outdated, it's about a 360 power stroke, and also isolating any knee twist. If roche had used Look he would have had another crack at the Tour (accordign tohis book). Clip in do, if properly set up, reduce knee torsion and twist.

In reply to John Rushby: speedplay on all my bikes now. Including the rather tasty Van Nicholas I'm riding in Mallorca this week...

In reply to andy:

I hear good things about them. However, having bikes in Brum and Skipden mena i will haver to change lots of shoesa and pedals.

Time for me, I prefer them to Look but Time cleats are only sold with angels' tears and Unicorn feed.....

In reply to John Rushby:

That reminds me - must buy some more shoes. Tend to be out 5 or 6 times a week so need extra shoes in case some get wet.

In reply to John Rushby:

Rode with those on my Proflex 855, which is still going strong and out on Wednesday nights with the MTB Club.

In reply to goldmember:

Good idea to carry some cleat covers if you are likely to have to walk around a bit; stops you slipping on tiled floors & prolongs the life of your cleats

You can get them for Look or SPD-SL

In reply to mikehike:

you stated up thread about your body being capable of deliverying say 250watthrs

does that not depend on which muscles you are using? and how long those limbs are?

eg your arms v legs

assuming your legs and flat pedals the power is primarily coming from your down stroke and delivered equally by opposite legs sequentially.

but essentially each strok has one engine (the down thrust)
now add a second engine (the other leg pulling up) why wouldn't adding an extra power source deliver more power to the back wheel?

re your knees in clipless pedals, usual causes of that would be
incorrect position of cleat on shoe (requires much more care than most people give it)
forgetting to adjust saddle position (the distance between the sole of your foot and the pedal axis will probably change so the seat needs to be adjusted too)
overly tight release tension on the cleats over stressing the knee when you twist out
and finally
the extra power alluded to above can tempt a rider into pushing harder in a bigger gear that over stresses the knee (and lower back) spinning easier gears, faster seems to be more efficient... witness froomes mtn attacks were almost always initiated from the seated position not by leaping up onto the pedals.

but like you i wasn't able in 5 minutes to find an actual power reading test to confirm any of this so the above can only remain an opinion

btw standing up and pushing a high gear up hill normally leads to a oversized backside so maybe something to think about (ahem)


does anyone have access to any data from Sky / UK cycling team?

In reply to rallymania:

Sorry if that is misleading Im not claiming I can deliver 250whrs. I was just pulling a figure out my head as an example.

>but essentially each strok has one engine (the down thrust)
>now add a second engine (the other leg pulling up) why wouldn't adding an >extra power source deliver more power to the back wheel?

If you are maintaining a cadence of say 90rpm from downstroke effort. Upstroke is only taking its own leg weight. Now say you inject upstroke effort. Down stroke leg will have to ease off the power, therefore no extra power input to drive train else down stroke speeds up to allow its self to maintain its previous power input level, from there onwards you spin away until wind resistance equals out your power input. Of if down stroke does then ease you have just kicked in some extra power.

I did write earlier that I excepted the concept that less energy is wasted by pulling up.

>Now say you inject upstroke effort. Down stroke leg will have to ease off
>the power, therefore no extra power input to drive train ...

Why do you think this? You're recruiting additional muscles. Your quads don't suddenly become weaker when other muscle groups activate.

In reply to goldmember:

Lots of studies done about the myth of the upstroke.
Don't worry if you feel like you're not getting any power into the back wheel by pulling up on the pedals. Apparently neither can the pros.

E

In reply to rallymania: In your engine analogy; for flatties imagine how your engine would perform with the big end bearings and little end bearings removed

In reply to Ewan_B:

My example is to MAINTAIN cadence.
If you inject more power from a secondary source, the primary source will have to back off.

In reply to mikehike:

what happens when you change one higher gear?

In reply to rallymania: popped into evans, what a nice shop! Im a size 42/43 in mtb spd shoes. Intereseted if anyone has any old pairs they want to sell (cheapy) ?

In reply to goldmember:

Might be able to help you out - check your mail.

When I started with clipless I bought shimano ultegra road and northwave shoes. After five years spending more time multi day touring I have changed to touring set up with shimano 600 spd type (same clip in system as mountain bike) and specialized touring shoes. Much more comfortable and safer when walking in cafes etc.

In reply to goldmember:

I live in Cambodia and use my MTB bike for the short commute to work, for getting around town and for MTB trips at weekends.

I'm visiting England at the moment, and bought some Dual sided Shimano pedals - SPD on one side and flat on the other. They are a little heavy but it's a nice trade off so that I don't have to put my SPD shoes on for short commutes, but can clip in (be clipless?) when I want the efficiency and connection with the bike on longer trips and off road. I've put them on my UK bike temporarily, and have noticed an improvement in output when using them, over flats. And unclipping in a hurry is no big deal.

In reply to goldmember:
I got pedals that are flat on one side and SPD on the other so it is easy to nip down to the shops without changing shoes etc but I guess it depends how many short runs you do.

I have gone clipless for a week or so now, just breaking myself in slow and building up the KM's. I haven’t noticed a big difference in speed and still trying to teach myself use my legs for the full stroke. I've got the din setting as low as possible to avoid buggering up my kness. I haven't fallen over... yet!

In reply to goldmember:

That's good to hear

By 'din setting' do you mean the tension of the release spring? This will have no bearing at all on any knee problems (unless you've got it so tight that you are straining your knees unclipping) as once you are clipped in it doesn't matter if the spring is tight or loose, the cleat is clamped in the same position.

You may wish to adjust the float if you have any knee problems (this usually involves a new pair of cleats), or play with the position of the cleat on your shoes.

I'd be more worried about a low 'din setting' causing a crash through accidental unclipping (e.g. when sprinting or climbing) than from any dangers from being clipped in "too well" (probably toppling over at a set of lights at worst) but just go with whatever you feel most confident with.

In reply to Aly: Knew it was going too well! My left knee has flared up a bit on the front. Im going to have a few days off the bike to try and get things to settle down. I wonder if i have set the spd up correctly? I screwed the cleat into the bit of the shoes under the ball of my foot.