UKC

...get upgraded to HVS 5b?

It was overgraded at VS 4c. Isn't this taking grade creep to a ridiculous level?

In reply to Goucho:

You're being an idiot but the answer to your questions is 1989 and no..

In reply to Goucho:

Over 20 years ago? It was that grade in the green BMC Kinder guide.

And yes it is entirely consistent with other HVS 5bs. Just because it felt easy when you did it however many decades ago doesn't change it having the correct grade. Drop it down to VS 4c and you'd have to downgrade 90% of grit HVSes to VS 4b/c....and 90% of grit VSes to HS4a/b.

In reply to Offwidth:

Exactly why am I being an idiot - and don't say because it's now more polished - it's been polished since the 70's.

In reply to Fiend:



Is it hell.

In reply to Goucho:

I repeat, 1989 and no (why not explain why its VS 4c compared to modern classics of that grade? )

In reply to Goucho:

Wasn't there a death or serious injury on this route?

In reply to Goucho: To reinforce Messrs Fiend and Offwidth:- yes, you're being an idiot. I never know whether people are being "ironic" in posts like this, so I'll assume you're being serious. As someone who (according to your profile) has been climbing for more than 20 years it's bizarre that you're even asking this question. The fact that you climbed it in the 70s when it was VS in the then current guide is completely meaningless.

It has a 5b move or two on it and it's been HVS 5b since the early 80s at least, if Keith Ashton is to be believed (and he is). It's significantly harder than any other VS on the edge so...it must be a hard VS (see what I've done there?)

It was VS in the 1971 guide, but then so was Scoop Face (now HVS). Domino Wall and Raggald's Wall were both HVS in the 71 guide but are both bog standard E1. These routes were given their VS or HVS grades in the 60s, when attitudes and equipment were etc etc etc etc....why don't you know this?!

Amazing.

In reply to lowersharpnose: Yes, there was. It was a guy called Alan Adshead. He used this as his party piece whenever he went to the crag; he soloed it for the Nth time, slipped at about 8 feet and died after landing on his head.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Thanks. Poor blighter.

In reply to Goucho:

Idiot is too strong, but if it is in line with the grades of other comparable routes, it has the right grade. If the grades 25 years were also comparable with each, they were correct too (although I suspect they weren't). There is no reason for a grade from 25 years ago to mean the same as the same grade today.

In reply to Frank the Husky:


I wonder whether you and Offwidth, are as quick with the verbal tough guy act in the flesh, as you are at your keyboard - somehow I doubt it? Having a different opinion on a route grade does not necessarily equate to being an idiot?

I never know whether people are being "ironic" in posts like this, so I'll assume you're being serious. As someone who (according to your profile) has been climbing for more than 20 years it's bizarre that you're even asking this question. The fact that you climbed it in the 70s when it was VS in the then current guide is completely meaningless.

Are you being ironic in suggesting I can't disagree with a route grade?


Because there are so many other VS's at the crag to compare it with obviously?


I do, I just don't agree, and if you compare it to dozens of other grit HVS 5b's, it falls well short.

In reply to Goucho:

Have to say it seems bang on at HVS 5b to me; a couple of steeper, awkward, reachy moves right at the top, well protected. It is more polished, but mostly near the bottom, not the crux.

You'd be right that isn't as sustained as say, Matinee or Ackit, and it isn't at Hen Cloud, but compared with other routes at Windgather or Castle Naze, it's about right.

In reply to Goucho:

Thing is, either we take you at face value (if overgraded at VS 4c you think its VS4b/HS4c/HS4b) in which case your grading view is so far from a typical modern climber to be meaningless, or more likely, you are stirring on purpose (in which case there were much better targets/jokes).

I'm sure I'd get on with you in real life (but I do have to run fast sometimes after being too forthright after a few beers .

I know the route pretty well having done it several times, its one of the scariest solos I've ever done (including my unprotected low extreme onsights), I've forgotten how many ascents I've witnessed and I last saw it soloed and climbed a few times 2 weeks back.

In reply to Goucho:

I do think Offwidth was being too offhand with his insults (as seems often to be the case when he disagrees with someone) but I do agree that Portfolio is HVS. It's a pretty hard one or two moves which seemed well protected after an easy start. I wouldn't disagree with the crux being easily 5b - an awkward and hard pull on small holds up a slightly overhanging wall. HVS seems fair enough and, whilst I'd say it is proably on the soft side of HVS, it isn't really VS.

In reply to Goucho:

Why isn't it VS 4c? Er, because it's tech 5b not 4c?

It's definitely HVS 5b, entirely consistent with other routes at the grade (except the sandbags). If you fell off you could easily sprain an ankle on the swing in or even hit your head so it's not even that safe at the grade (though it is short).

In reply to Skyfall:


Yes, maybe better (and maybe more accurate) would have been:

In reply to jon:

That might be my response to better route selection (soft touch or troll) but Portfolio?

In reply to Michael Gordon:


So it's as hard as Scoop Direct (HVS 5b) and harder than Scoop Face (HVS 5a) at Castle Naze?

I think both these routes are technically harder, more sustained and more serious if you fell?

In reply to Offwidth:


My 'overgraded at VS' might have been provocative, but I am genuinely surprised anyone would consider it HVS 5b?


Who knows


Have soloed it dozens of times too, and in all honesty, with no attempts at cock waiving, I can't see how it gets HVS 5b - didn't think it was anymore than VS the first time I did it, when VS was my grade?

In reply to jon:

Not bored jon, or trolling (although this thread proves how easy it would be) just genuinely can't get my head round it being graded HVS 5b?

In reply to Goucho:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15921
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15920
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15836

Not far off I'd say allowing for the bias for easy routes at the adjectival grade.

In reply to Offwidth:


I meant Scoop Direct - my mistake.

In reply to Goucho:
So somewhere on the provocative to trolling scale, eh?

When was your last solo? Windgather is one of the few crags I've noticed that seems to have got noticably more polished in the last decade.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15919

In reply to Goucho:

Not done Scoop Face Direct. I think it's a similar standard to Scoop Face which is fairly easy after the first bit, though that is probably more like 5b nowadays (pretty polished start). Wouldn't have said either were sustained.

In reply to Offwidth:


Provocative


Actually, about 5 years ago, when I hadn't touched rock for nearly 15 years. I was on the way back from a business trip, and driving out of Whalley Bridge to Mac, and suddenly had the urge to pay Windgather a visit (like many people it was where I was introduced to climbing). I was wearing a suit and leather soled Chelsea boots, and it still felt no more than VS - and trust me, I'm not that good.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


No they're not (and I meant Scoop Direct) but I still reckon they're harder than Portfolio.

In reply to the thread:


It's certainly 5b. One could produce an argument for VS 5b (owing to the hard bit being short and well protected), though it might just sneak into HVS 5b.

As for Scoop Face, that's HVS 5c, though HVS 5a once 4ft off the ground and near the top of the grade.

Of the two, I think people are more likely to fall and weight gear on Portfolio.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

I've no personal experience of taking the fall (thankfully) but I think some who say 'well protected' may be surprised at what could be a nasty swing in to the rock below.

As for Scoop Face normal, surely not 5c? I'd have said 5b start then 4c above, so IMO not high in grade.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


If you put those moves on the top-out (right by bomber gear) people would be falling off them in droves. They're only given a lower grade because you can have multiple tries, stepping down each time.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

You may be right, it's a while since I did it. I don't remember thinking 5c for the normal, but I think I may have tried and failed on the direct!

In reply to Goucho:


Hmmm, I was the same when I learned to my surprise a few years back that Goliaths Groove was now HVS. I was of course shouted down as an old fart harping on about the good old days (which I wasn't, at all). Just surprised.

In reply to jon:


What? I didn't know that either - thanks jon

Sticky rubber, cams, more climbing walls, more training and routes get 'upgraded'? Maybe we were better than we thought we were lol.

In reply to Goucho:

But climbing walls don't provide features like Goliath's Groove in order to train on! So we're all crap at that sort of climbing nowadays.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

We didn't have them either, we just did lots of crack climbing and learned - it was part of being a well rounded climber

So are you saying that these kind of routes were undergraded, or that they've been upgraded to reflect the skill levels of today's average climber?

In reply to Goucho & jon:

Both of those have had those grades for a long time! Do neither of you look at modern guides?

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Not for routes at that grade to be honest. And up until the last few years, I was out of climbing for a long time also, so a lot of these upgrades are still new to me - hence this post?

However, that doesn't mean we can't still look at a route, and scratch our heads regarding the grades now given does it?

In reply to Goucho:

Fair enough. And I guess once you know where the routes go there's not a lot to be gained from re-reading descriptions.

In reply to Goucho:


Seems to me that when you know a route that well it is impossible to judge its onsight grade. There are HVS's I find easier than some Severes.

In reply to Goucho:

Hi Goucho,

Coming late to this thread and not sure I'll be able to add much of value to it. But, for what it's worth, here goes.

My own experience of Portfolio is slight. I was messing around, soloing on the crag about 15 - 20 years ago, without a guidebook. Started on the top moves and a little red light came on, saying, "Just be careful." With a little care, it seemed fine but I remember thinking, "This could catch folk out." It seemed to require more subtlety that the usual Windgather 'grip and pull'. It seemed HVS, 5b (sorry!) and, when I checked afterwards, that's what it was given. Seemed fair enough (sorry again). The second time I soloed it (about a year later), it seemed utterly straightforward, I suspect because my mind-set was set to the HVS/E1 band, not the V Diff/Severe one.

There may be a couple of reasons why you might find it only VS. Might reach be one? You're pretty tall, aren't you? I don't remember it like Sardine where being any shorter than me would make a really big difference. But being tall might help a bit?

The second reason is that when you first did it (mid-70s?), VS would have been a wider grade (though not as wide as say 10 years before). And it might have been easier for you to fit it into the grade. And, once having fitted it into the grade, it might stay fitted into 'your' grade, your mental set, so that you can just do it automatically.

It's an odd little route, just those few moves. So, in that sense, I agree, it feels generally far less committing than many VSs (especially of yore) where you felt you were setting off on a bit of an adventure. But there's something about it. It's one of those routes. A little bit naughty. I still feel it's a trap for the unwary. And, if it's now polished. Hmm...

Best wishes,

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:
Sensible comments as always Mick

I agree reach does make a difference, but then again it does on most routes. I also agree with your comment about 'mindset', and maybe there are a lot of folk from our generation, who have been programmed (possibly institutionalised) in our formative years concerning grades?

However, I still think that certain aspects of grade creep could be more down to a decline in certain skill sets - crack climbing, poorly protected etc - as opposed to certain routes actually being undergraded, and is possibly a reflection of the wall-bred/sport attitude to climbing now influencing trad grading?

Despite all this, and the rational case put forward by some regarding Portfolio, I still don't think it's either HVS or 5b.

Now VS 5a, and I might reluctantly agree

I think there are too many overgraded routes, some by absolute miles.

The Indian Face is another example, I reckon it should be a classic solid HVS in my opinion.

In reply to Mick Ward:

But there's something about it. It's one of those routes. A little bit naughty. I still feel it's a trap for the unwary. And, if it's now polished. Hmm...

And that just about sums it up. I failed to second Portfolio 20 odd years ago, coming back into climbing after a few years' break. I the managed to second and later lead it, and for 10 years or so I regularly soloed it - and it was absolutely straightforward. The polish is on the starting slab, and the sequence on the "headwall" (so to speak) once learned is obvious enough. I don't do it now though, and even when I did, I was always very aware of the nasty landing. At HVS 5b it might deter some who would consider VS 5a? It's certainly a step up from other climbs there (Cheat at HVS 5a is a lot more ameniable)

I would have been very heart-in-mouth watching a man in a suit and chelsea boots soloing it I must say!

In reply to Goucho:


Of course I am, possibly more so. Next time you see me on the crag (I usually have a large husky with me so I'll be easy to spot) feel free to come over and I'll happily be just as scathing about your Portfolio related nonsense. No one agrees with you, and out of 128 votes on the database not one says VS. See you around?

In reply to Mick Ward:


Exactly how I feel about it. Difficult to be completely objective once you know there's been a fatality, even though that wasn't related to the crux moves, but compared with the easy slabs and jug-hauling of most of the routes hereabouts it does need to be taken a bit more seriously.

In reply to jon:

To me GG feels VS but it doesn't to the VS climbing public. Skill sets have moved on..

In reply to Fiend:


Which 30 years ago most of them were. But back then grit grades were usually considered to be a bit tougher than other areas. There has been a general re-adjustment of grit grades to bring them more in line with grades elsewhere. Perhaps changes in skill sets and different attitudes to risk also play a part. You may deplore it, but grade creep is a fact and routes have to be graded according to current standards and by comparison with other routes. I climb (modern) VS 4c, on a good day, and from my perspective Portfolio is significantly harder than that. On the other hand, a lot of the climbs I now tick as VSs were Severe or even HVD in the old guidebooks.

I saw a friend fall off it - her feet caught in the ropes, she inverted, and her head smacked the slab below so hard her helmet left a mark which took 6 months to disappear. If she hadn't been wearing it she could have been seriously injured.

In reply to Howard J:



I'd say grit routes are on average still graded harder than most other rock types. Portfolio is just a correctly graded one!



Sounds nasty, and in that situation 'seriously injured' may have been lucky.

In reply to Goucho:



I've not done Portfolio for about 15 years, but I remember the crux being significantly harder than than The Scoop (which I seconded my son on a couple of weeks ago).

The crux of Scoop Direct is a boulder problem. I fell off one clammy summer day and sprained an ankle, so not especially more serious....falling off the 4b? top bit would be, but then we're in Sunset Slab comparison territory.

In reply to Goucho:
Well having read all the replies, it would seem the overwhelming consensus is that I am completely wrong on this, and out in the idiots wilderness

It's not the first time, and probably not the last, but I will gracefully bow down to an overwhelming democracy, and go and join my kindred spirits in the Lib Dems.

G.

P.S. What grade is 3PS these days?

In reply to Goucho:

HVS in Rockfax by the method the BMC give E1. The BMC also give the common escape left HVS).

In reply to Goucho:


Come and join your kindred spirits at Hen Cloud. Windgather is for wimps anyway.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Hen cloud is just plain great. The HVS routes are hard but in an honest way, so the grades never seemed so hard to me. Ramshaw stopped me way more often.