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Just fitted a new 13 amp socket for the washing machine and noticed that the L and N stamps on the plastic were reversed. Admittedly a pro sparky would not even have looked but I was a bit concerned in case somebody lacking some knowledge might have reversed the wires. Anyone else noticed anything like this?
In reply to FesteringSore:
I just plug my washing machine any old way round. The beauty of European plugs is they couldn´ t care less
I just plug my washing machine any old way round. The beauty of European plugs is they couldn´ t care less
In reply to FesteringSore:
Just in case any was not sure what I was alluding to, on the new socket the bottom left hole was indicated "L" and the bottom right was indicated "N"
http://images.sdslondon.co.uk/img/upload/products/1/l_50630.jpg
Just in case any was not sure what I was alluding to, on the new socket the bottom left hole was indicated "L" and the bottom right was indicated "N"
http://images.sdslondon.co.uk/img/upload/products/1/l_50630.jpg
In reply to FesteringSore:
Where? The stamps are normally next to the terminals aren't they? On most sockets that I have used, the conductors from the terminals to the contacts are not visible. Do you mean that you checked the continuity and they were labelled wrong, or was it obvious that they were labelled wrong?
Speak to trading standards?
> Just in case any was not sure what I was alluding to, on the new socket the bottom left hole was indicated "L" and the bottom right was indicated "N"
Where? The stamps are normally next to the terminals aren't they? On most sockets that I have used, the conductors from the terminals to the contacts are not visible. Do you mean that you checked the continuity and they were labelled wrong, or was it obvious that they were labelled wrong?
Speak to trading standards?
Post edited at 14:59
In reply to FesteringSore:
*Ridiculous* question I know, but just have to check...
Looking at the front, or looking at the back?
> Just in case any was not sure what I was alluding to, on the new socket the bottom left hole was indicated "L" and the bottom right was indicated "N"
*Ridiculous* question I know, but just have to check...
Looking at the front, or looking at the back?
8
In reply to FesteringSore:
The markings would have been on the reverse of the socket of course. But, if you're quite sure that you didn't get confused by the resulting left-right reversal, then you obviously ought to report what would be a grotesque fault to the manufacturer.
The markings would have been on the reverse of the socket of course. But, if you're quite sure that you didn't get confused by the resulting left-right reversal, then you obviously ought to report what would be a grotesque fault to the manufacturer.
Post edited at 14:59
In reply to MarkJH:
> Where? The stamps are normally next to the terminals aren't they?
L and N were stamped on the plastic adjacent to the terminals> Speak to trading standards?
Reported it to the retailerIn reply to FesteringSore:
Yes, but could you trace the path from the terminals to the conductors? They may just use the same layout as a double socket, in which case the 'left' terminal may not lead to the 'left' hole on the front face.
> L and N were stamped on the plastic adjacent to the terminals
Yes, but could you trace the path from the terminals to the conductors? They may just use the same layout as a double socket, in which case the 'left' terminal may not lead to the 'left' hole on the front face.
Post edited at 15:03
1
I actually reconnected the Live and Neutral in the same sense that they had appeared when I remove the socket and double checked that they corresponded with the stampings on the plug.
Nothing went bang when I switched on again
Nothing went bang when I switched on again
In reply to FesteringSore:
Yes, but you said it was a new socket...
It wouldn't, but you still may have reversed the polarity, which is a bad idea for a number of reasons.
> I actually reconnected the Live and Neutral in the same sense that they had appeared when I remove the socket and double checked that they corresponded with the stampings on the plug.
Yes, but you said it was a new socket...
> Nothing went bang when I switched on again
It wouldn't, but you still may have reversed the polarity, which is a bad idea for a number of reasons.
In reply to MarkJH:
(L & N are also stamped on the plug)
> Yes, but you said it was a new socket...
Yes> It wouldn't, but you still may have reversed the polarity, which is a bad idea for a number of reasons.
I've gone red to live on plug and black to neutral on plug(L & N are also stamped on the plug)
Post edited at 15:11
In reply to FesteringSore:
They don't always appear as expected. E.g.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nXozIKNe508/maxresdefault.jpg
They don't always appear as expected. E.g.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nXozIKNe508/maxresdefault.jpg
3
In reply to FesteringSore:
OK, I'm not saying you're wrong, but my starting point would always be that it's more likely that I've made a mistake than a manufacturer (particularly of electrical supplies).
Just to be sure. You have checked that there is continuity between the live terminal on the plug and the neutral terminal on the socket?
> I've gone red to live on plug and black to neutral on plug
OK, I'm not saying you're wrong, but my starting point would always be that it's more likely that I've made a mistake than a manufacturer (particularly of electrical supplies).
Just to be sure. You have checked that there is continuity between the live terminal on the plug and the neutral terminal on the socket?
In reply to Lusk:
Not me. But I only use one bit of sleeving for both Earth wires, Is that allowed ??
> Argh, which moron twisted and sleeved the Earths together?!
Not me. But I only use one bit of sleeving for both Earth wires, Is that allowed ??
In reply to MarkJH:
But why would the markings on the existing plug on the appliance correspond with the way the (old) socket was wired? In other words I've got live from the socket going to live on the plug
> OK, I'm not saying you're wrong, but my starting point would always be that it's more likely that I've made a mistake than a manufacturer (particularly of electrical supplies).
But why would the markings on the existing plug on the appliance correspond with the way the (old) socket was wired? In other words I've got live from the socket going to live on the plug
In reply to FesteringSore:
The question is how do you know live from the socket goes (or not) to live on the plug. As in the picture above, the terminals typically disappear in to a plastic moulding.
The question is how do you know live from the socket goes (or not) to live on the plug. As in the picture above, the terminals typically disappear in to a plastic moulding.
1
In reply to FesteringSore:
As I understand it, you are saying that the terminals on the new socket are labelled wrong. All I am asking is have you actually checked (with a multi meter) that this is so?
You dont need a plug to check this, but the easiest way is to plug a (disconnected) plug into the (disconnected) socket and test for continuity between the plug and socket terminals. Apologies if you have already done this.
> But why would the markings on the existing plug on the appliance correspond with the way the (old) socket was wired? In other words I've got live from the socket going to live on the plug
As I understand it, you are saying that the terminals on the new socket are labelled wrong. All I am asking is have you actually checked (with a multi meter) that this is so?
You dont need a plug to check this, but the easiest way is to plug a (disconnected) plug into the (disconnected) socket and test for continuity between the plug and socket terminals. Apologies if you have already done this.
Post edited at 15:25
1
In reply to FesteringSore:
I think different manufactures position the terminals in different positions on the reverse side of their sockets. Whats important is the they all feed L & N to the plug the same way.
Edit : A pro sparky WILL look to see where the L and N terminals are BECAUSE not all socket terminals are in the same place.
I think different manufactures position the terminals in different positions on the reverse side of their sockets. Whats important is the they all feed L & N to the plug the same way.
Edit : A pro sparky WILL look to see where the L and N terminals are BECAUSE not all socket terminals are in the same place.
Post edited at 15:31
3
In reply to MG:
Because it appeared thus and I rewired it identically(ignor the "L" and "N" in the image)
https://s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/centaur-wp/homebuilding/prod/content/...
> The question is how do you know live from the socket goes (or not) to live on the plug. As in the picture above, the terminals typically disappear in to a plastic moulding.
Because it appeared thus and I rewired it identically(ignor the "L" and "N" in the image)
https://s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/centaur-wp/homebuilding/prod/content/...
Post edited at 15:36
In reply to FesteringSore:
What they are tryng to say, is that the position of the connections in the back of the socket don't necesarily correspond with the position in the front of the socket. The hidden circuitry may well be routing them so that the rear left terminal gets connected to the front right pin.
i.e. Like this one
http://www.nexxia.co.uk/pics/NX-WP-091.jpg
http://www.nexxia.co.uk/pics/NX-WP-091_back.jpg
What they are tryng to say, is that the position of the connections in the back of the socket don't necesarily correspond with the position in the front of the socket. The hidden circuitry may well be routing them so that the rear left terminal gets connected to the front right pin.
i.e. Like this one
http://www.nexxia.co.uk/pics/NX-WP-091.jpg
http://www.nexxia.co.uk/pics/NX-WP-091_back.jpg
In reply to Mr Lopez:
I get that but it seems a bit stupid not to have some sort of standardisation
> What they are tryng to say, is that the position of the connections in the back of the socket don't necesarily correspond with the position in the front of the socket. The hidden circuitry may well be routing them so that the rear left terminal gets connected to the front right pin.
> i.e. Like this one
I get that but it seems a bit stupid not to have some sort of standardisation
9
What will happen with reverse polarity?
In reply to FesteringSore:
If you got a single pole socket when you turn the socket off the appliance will be off, but there will still be current in the neutral because single pole sockets only cut off the life circuit, so if you switch off the socket and touched the cable you get zapped.
With a double pole socket nothing much happens.
If you got a single pole socket when you turn the socket off the appliance will be off, but there will still be current in the neutral because single pole sockets only cut off the life circuit, so if you switch off the socket and touched the cable you get zapped.
With a double pole socket nothing much happens.
1
In reply to FesteringSore:
Nothing major (probably), but the appliance wiring may not be fully protected by the fuse in the plug (for certain faults), and the internal switches (if single pole) may not isolate the machine from the live feed when plugged in.
At worst you could damage the electronic controls, but if this didn't happen straight away it may be OK.
> What will happen with reverse polarity?
Nothing major (probably), but the appliance wiring may not be fully protected by the fuse in the plug (for certain faults), and the internal switches (if single pole) may not isolate the machine from the live feed when plugged in.
At worst you could damage the electronic controls, but if this didn't happen straight away it may be OK.
Post edited at 15:51
In reply to Mr Lopez:
That may also be the case within the appliance itself - though as Europlugs don't have defined polarity pretty much all appliances will be designed such that that won't cause a dangerous failure mode. It's more of an issue related to British switched sockets. European sockets tend not to be switched, so to isolate you'd always pull the plug out.
That may also be the case within the appliance itself - though as Europlugs don't have defined polarity pretty much all appliances will be designed such that that won't cause a dangerous failure mode. It's more of an issue related to British switched sockets. European sockets tend not to be switched, so to isolate you'd always pull the plug out.
In reply to MarkJH:
Ah yes, good point, I forgot the curious British issue of using a 32A breaker on a circuit that has much lower-rated appliance flexes, hence the plug fuses.
The ring main really is an oddity, fortunately one that is dying out in favour of 15A and 20A radials in new-builds.
> Nothing major (probably), but the appliance wiring may not be fully protected by the fuse in the plug (for certain faults), and if the internal switches (if single pole) may not isolate the machine from the live feed when plugged in.
Ah yes, good point, I forgot the curious British issue of using a 32A breaker on a circuit that has much lower-rated appliance flexes, hence the plug fuses.
The ring main really is an oddity, fortunately one that is dying out in favour of 15A and 20A radials in new-builds.
2
In reply to FesteringSore:
In the event that a fuse blows (either in the plug or the appliance itself), it's the neutral that gets disconnected rather than the live. That may defeat some of the protection that the fuse offers, against the risk of getting a shock from a faulty appliance and also from the risk of it starting a fire.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
The above is still the case though, regardless of whether the switch is single or double pole.
> What will happen with reverse polarity?
In the event that a fuse blows (either in the plug or the appliance itself), it's the neutral that gets disconnected rather than the live. That may defeat some of the protection that the fuse offers, against the risk of getting a shock from a faulty appliance and also from the risk of it starting a fire.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
> With a double pole socket nothing much happens.
The above is still the case though, regardless of whether the switch is single or double pole.
Post edited at 15:54
In reply to FesteringSore:
You can't see from that, or the actual socket where the conductors go inside the plastic. I would be amazed if the labelling on the socket was wrong.
You can't see from that, or the actual socket where the conductors go inside the plastic. I would be amazed if the labelling on the socket was wrong.
3
In reply to Neil Williams:
new lamps that people hanging in their windows of from ceilings are now plugged with a special lamp plug / socket, it can only go one way and prevents circuits being lamp live, even when turned off. http://www.biltema.se/sv/Bygg/El/Uttag-Strombrytare-och-Dimmer/Lamputtag-20...
I can imagine more than one person has tried to replace a bulb in the dark and got a tickle.
> That may also be the case within the appliance itself - though as Europlugs don't have defined polarity pretty much all appliances will be designed such that that won't cause a dangerous failure mode.
new lamps that people hanging in their windows of from ceilings are now plugged with a special lamp plug / socket, it can only go one way and prevents circuits being lamp live, even when turned off. http://www.biltema.se/sv/Bygg/El/Uttag-Strombrytare-och-Dimmer/Lamputtag-20...
I can imagine more than one person has tried to replace a bulb in the dark and got a tickle.
In reply to FesteringSore:
It conforms with the new European Standard for UK 13 amp plugs introduced on 24 June 2016.
Designed to reverse the terminals.
The next revision due by May 2017 changes the E for L.
Jean-Claude Juncker apparently has a sense of humour when he is sober
It conforms with the new European Standard for UK 13 amp plugs introduced on 24 June 2016.
Designed to reverse the terminals.
The next revision due by May 2017 changes the E for L.
Jean-Claude Juncker apparently has a sense of humour when he is sober
2
Realise now that I had (wrongly) assumed that all socket configurations were identical. I'll run a check for continuity tomorrow - hopefully without alarming Mrs Fester
2
In reply to m0unt41n:
> It conforms with the new European Standard for UK 13 amp plugs introduced on 24 June 2016.
> Designed to reverse the terminals.
> The next revision due by May 2017 changes the E for L.
> Jean-Claude Juncker apparently has a sense of humour when he is sober
Was that tongue in cheek?In reply to m0unt41n:
Love it
We're also changing to drive on the right. This will happen over two days - cars starting A-P on day one, cars Q-Z on day two.
Love it
We're also changing to drive on the right. This will happen over two days - cars starting A-P on day one, cars Q-Z on day two.
Post edited at 16:39
2
In reply to summo:
Is that a Euro-norm or just a Scandinavian thing?
I've had a massive belt while changing a lamp socket (the hanging down bit on a pendant fitting that the bulb screws into) in Switzerland because of a similar misunderstanding - and this wasn't some ancient chateau but a modern new-build flat. The switch, it turned out, was on the neutral.
I turned the lot off at the fuse box for all further work.
(Switzerland doesn't use the "loop in" switch approach that we do that means there's always an unswitched live in the ceiling fitting - the main radial circuit goes to the switch with the ceiling fitting on a spur from the switched side of the switch - so this would have been fine were it not for that wiring error)
> new lamps that people hanging in their windows of from ceilings are now plugged with a special lamp plug / socket, it can only go one way and prevents circuits being lamp live, even when turned off. http://www.biltema.se/sv/Bygg/El/Uttag-Strombrytare-och-Dimmer/Lamputtag-20...
Is that a Euro-norm or just a Scandinavian thing?
> I can imagine more than one person has tried to replace a bulb in the dark and got a tickle.
I've had a massive belt while changing a lamp socket (the hanging down bit on a pendant fitting that the bulb screws into) in Switzerland because of a similar misunderstanding - and this wasn't some ancient chateau but a modern new-build flat. The switch, it turned out, was on the neutral.
I turned the lot off at the fuse box for all further work.
(Switzerland doesn't use the "loop in" switch approach that we do that means there's always an unswitched live in the ceiling fitting - the main radial circuit goes to the switch with the ceiling fitting on a spur from the switched side of the switch - so this would have been fine were it not for that wiring error)
Post edited at 16:44
In reply to Neil Williams:
Think it's just the over cautious Nordics, one accident and force millions to change! Only applies to new works and renovations. No mandatory retro fit.
or at least test first
> Is that a Euro-norm or just a Scandinavian thing?
Think it's just the over cautious Nordics, one accident and force millions to change! Only applies to new works and renovations. No mandatory retro fit.
> I turned the lot off at the fuse box for all further work.
or at least test first
2
In reply to summo:
Thought I'd play it safe after that. It's only the second mains[1] belt I've ever had (one was being stupid as a kid) and that's despite having half-rewired my house.
Edit: Oh, I lie, there was one more due to the incorrect wiring (by the previous owner) of my heating thermostat - it shouldn't have been live per the wiring diagram in the manual, but it actually was (as it was wired to the wrong live on the boiler terminals). Forgot that one. More testing needed first
[1] There was a third one involving old-style thin Ethernet cabling, but I think it was just heavy static from the CRT monitors it was running past, not actual mains.
> or at least test first
Thought I'd play it safe after that. It's only the second mains[1] belt I've ever had (one was being stupid as a kid) and that's despite having half-rewired my house.
Edit: Oh, I lie, there was one more due to the incorrect wiring (by the previous owner) of my heating thermostat - it shouldn't have been live per the wiring diagram in the manual, but it actually was (as it was wired to the wrong live on the boiler terminals). Forgot that one. More testing needed first
[1] There was a third one involving old-style thin Ethernet cabling, but I think it was just heavy static from the CRT monitors it was running past, not actual mains.
Post edited at 16:48
In reply to Neil Williams:
I'm not sure the EU is involved in domestic plugs & sockets. I think member states do their own thing. Certainly the standard for UK 13A plugs/sockets is a wholly British standard.
Hang on...
Yep, looks that way:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1363
"There is no European Union regulation of domestic mains plugs and sockets; the Low Voltage Directive specifically excludes domestic plugs and sockets. EU countries each have their own regulations and national standards and CE marking is neither applicable nor permitted on plugs and sockets. Despite this CE Marking is sometimes fraudulently used, especially on universal sockets."
Also, stumbled across whilst googling the above, and interesting to those who like this kind of thing:
http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/49/bs-1363-plug-and-socket.cfm?...
> Is that a Euro-norm or just a Scandinavian thing?
I'm not sure the EU is involved in domestic plugs & sockets. I think member states do their own thing. Certainly the standard for UK 13A plugs/sockets is a wholly British standard.
Hang on...
Yep, looks that way:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1363
"There is no European Union regulation of domestic mains plugs and sockets; the Low Voltage Directive specifically excludes domestic plugs and sockets. EU countries each have their own regulations and national standards and CE marking is neither applicable nor permitted on plugs and sockets. Despite this CE Marking is sometimes fraudulently used, especially on universal sockets."
Also, stumbled across whilst googling the above, and interesting to those who like this kind of thing:
http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/49/bs-1363-plug-and-socket.cfm?...
2
In reply to FesteringSore:
Live to the fuse, to the right as you look at it when wiring) in a standard BS 1362 3 pin plug
( of course when you plug it in the live will then be in the left socket hole)
Live to the fuse, to the right as you look at it when wiring) in a standard BS 1362 3 pin plug
( of course when you plug it in the live will then be in the left socket hole)
Post edited at 22:13
In reply to FesteringSore:
Well it wouldn't. You may still have wired your socket incorrectly. I'd suggest you trace the continuity in case you're wrong. Your washing machine won't care either way but something else (a lamp for example) could kill someone years down the line.
jk
> I actually reconnected the Live and Neutral in the same sense that they had appeared when I remove the socket and double checked that they corresponded with the stampings on the plug.
> Nothing went bang when I switched on again
> Nothing went bang when I switched on again
Well it wouldn't. You may still have wired your socket incorrectly. I'd suggest you trace the continuity in case you're wrong. Your washing machine won't care either way but something else (a lamp for example) could kill someone years down the line.
jk
2
In reply to FesteringSore:
Amazing!!
A pro sparky would have put the wires where the markings are, in fact most people would!
> Just fitted a new 13 amp socket for the washing machine and noticed that the L and N stamps on the plastic were reversed. Admittedly a pro sparky would not even have looked but I was a bit concerned in case somebody lacking some knowledge might have reversed the wires. Anyone else noticed anything like this?
Amazing!!
A pro sparky would have put the wires where the markings are, in fact most people would!
Post edited at 11:15
2
In reply to krikoman:
Quite. And if I thought it actually *was* wrong I would not install the faulty socket, I'd take it back. If there's one significant manufacturing fault there may also be another.
But I suspect the OP has just wired up his socket wrongly, and should use a multimeter to check. If he's done it backwards he needs to correct it before someone gets a shock, if he's done it correctly it's faulty and needs removing and returning to whence it came.
Quite. And if I thought it actually *was* wrong I would not install the faulty socket, I'd take it back. If there's one significant manufacturing fault there may also be another.
But I suspect the OP has just wired up his socket wrongly, and should use a multimeter to check. If he's done it backwards he needs to correct it before someone gets a shock, if he's done it correctly it's faulty and needs removing and returning to whence it came.
1
Sorted
1
In reply to Lusk:
Might sound like a stupid question but, why is this a bad idea?
> Argh, which moron twisted and sleeved the Earths together?!
Might sound like a stupid question but, why is this a bad idea?
In reply to FesteringSore:
Good. So is the socket off to trading standards or are you taking a salutary lesson from this?
jk
> Sorted
Good. So is the socket off to trading standards or are you taking a salutary lesson from this?
jk
1
In reply to jkarran:
Yes
> Good. So is the socket off to trading standards or are you taking a salutary lesson from this?
> jk
Yes
1
In reply to JoshOvki:
It's not wrong, it just makes life difficult if you ever need to separate the two wires at some later date.
The terminal grub screw will tighten down just as well if they are separate.
> Might sound like a stupid question but, why is this a bad idea?
It's not wrong, it just makes life difficult if you ever need to separate the two wires at some later date.
The terminal grub screw will tighten down just as well if they are separate.
1
In reply to FesteringSore:
Reverses your meter reading..........
No only jesting...
> What will happen with reverse polarity?
Reverses your meter reading..........
No only jesting...
In reply to FesteringSore:
That spectacularly failed to clarify JK's either/or question. It would be good to know what the problem actually was.
I've been finding a worrying quantity of non-spec imported electronics from online retailers lately - dangerous plugs etc. Would be good to know if the same is true for sockets...
> Yes
That spectacularly failed to clarify JK's either/or question. It would be good to know what the problem actually was.
I've been finding a worrying quantity of non-spec imported electronics from online retailers lately - dangerous plugs etc. Would be good to know if the same is true for sockets...
2
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