UKC

So I haven't done any actual winter climbing before, but I've planned a few ski mountaineering trips this winter and some peaks I'll be going up will have snow covered ridges.

I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything in the risk assessment. I know that if the side of the ridge is less than 60 degrees and more than 30 degrees incline, it could avalanche under the right snow conditions. So I have to watch the snow forecast and dig a snow profile before going on to anything potentially dangerous.

Also cornices are dangerous, so when scrambling/climbing on these ridges, I need to make sure I'm not standing on the cornice. So keep a safe distance from the cornice edges.

I should probably also use an axe and crampons for extra safety even if it isn't very technical I figure.

The ridge I'm talking about for my first climb is this little thing

https://peakbook.org/gfx/images/7/ac/mortenh_kalve111114-028.jpg/mortenh_ka...

Originally I wasn't going to attempt it but just ski on the peaks close to it instead, but I see that it looks doable and could be nice practice.

What do you think? Am I dumb and foolhardy or thinking about this the right way?

In reply to TheFasting:


Always a worrying start! If you're new to winter, then the chances of you being able to correctly interpret the layers in a snow profile are sketchy. And how will you recognise when to dig a profile?

Also, only an idiot would be up in that photo without ice axe and crampons. Judging by the rime ice in the bottom right corner, that snow's going to be hard neve now, and you don't want to take a slide on that slope. You would also need to know how to use them - do you know how to do a safe ice axe arrest for instance?

Beyond saying that, it's pretty difficult to answer your questions since you've not provided enough information - where is this peak, how high, what is your actual route, when are you going, what's the weather been doing recently where you're going?

In general, 'ridges are bridges', and will probably be a safer bet than skiing on avalanche prone slopes, but it all depends on the factors above. Going solely on the photo, I would probably give the ridge a go (myself), but wouldn't recommend it for someone who's soloing their first winter walk.

In reply to TheFasting:

I'd probably book onto a winter skills course with guide. Winter conditions are fickle and developing your winter skills is pretty much a lifetime journey. That said, a 1 to 1 intensive with a guide for a full day should pretty much cover you for the basics and give you a good grounding in what to look out for, winter techniques , conditions etc. You can then go out and have a go at stuff, get your own experience, armed with a good basic knowledge.

That ridge doesn't look too tricky (grade 2 at a guess) so given the right conditions, in good weather, and after the above training I'd be tempted to give it a go. Years ago a mate and I comfortably did the Aonach Eagach (grade 2) in full-on winter conditions, after only a day or so's winter training. It presented a couple of tricky, icy downclimb sections but no real problems.

I'm only speaking from my own perspective and skill set though so you'd need to make your own call based on your own ability and tolerance to risk.

Where is that ridge by the way?

In reply to TheFasting:

As per the previous poster, the lack of info of you or your knowledge level makes it very hard to give advice. However, this being UKC......

You've planned ski mountaineering trips - does this mean you've just planned them, or have actually been "ski-mountaineering"*. For these trips, I'd imagine you either have a decent knowledge of snow or are going with someone who does.

On this basis, snow pits are great, but only tell you the what the snow is like in that particular location. Slight changes in aspect/gradient make a big difference so don't dig one pit them take that as gospel for the day. It's a good starter for ten but constantly reassess what the snow looks like, how it feels under your feet etc.

Ridges are generally a "safe haven" so avalanche risks will be reduced compared to skiing big open bowls (slopes that are fun to ski in powder are also those prone to slipping) so I would imagine the biggest risk you face is a slip/fall.

You should have crampons and an axe for that terrain but you should know that already and know how to use them. You need to know the different ways to use and axe, how to walk and move in crampons, how to ice-axe arrest etc. All these skills are required for "ski-mountaineering" (depending on what you actually mean) so you either have them or intend to learn them so it's all good.

Looks like a nice area, have fun!

*What do you mean by "ski mountaineering". a bit of meadow skipping on touring skis, up and down the Wildhorn, up a TD route and ski of the back?

In reply to HTPumlumon:

I can go into my previous knowledge a bit.

Previously I've had a 1 week glacier course that is the "level 1" part of Norwegian glacier instructor training. Part of that is learning crampon technique, some simple ice climbing and self-arresting with and without an axe, crevasse rescue (includes making snow anchors with deadmans). I've also had a beginner ski mountaineering course where I was trained to recognise avalanche risk, use seekers etc. I've also had a beginner ice climbing course but that's not very relevant for this (if there's ice on the ridge I'm not going on it).

When it comes to just the survival part, I've spent a lot of days sleeping outside around -10 to -20, but not in the mountains.

This particular trip is just a first ski mountaineering trip to get a feel for it. The whole trip goes clear of avalanche territory (both run outs and steep slopes). Originally I wasn't planning on doing this ridge but when I looked at it it looked doable and not very dangerous.

In reply to TheFasting:
Okay with that experience I'm guessing you'd be fine. Provided your navigation skills are good, you've got the right gear then wait for some nice weather and conditions and crack on I'd say, looks fun. Which ridge it it in the photo?

Have a look here for some good avalanche info: http://www.estc.org.uk/avalanche-safety.html

In reply to Northern Star:
It's the ridge between Vestre Kalvehøgde and Leirungskampen in south-east Jotunheimen. Both are about 2100 meters high. The ridge itself is about 200 meters I think.

I'll have to take the conditions into account when I get there, but this ridge will just be a bonus on a longer trip anyway so no harm if I skip it.

Here's a page with pictures and maps

https://peakbook.org/tour/111978/Sol+uten+stans.html

In reply to TheFasting:


emmm.....do share that technique!!

In reply to exiled_northerner:

Basically you make your arms into a V-shape, like a plow, and press your elbows and knees down into the snow. Elbows down against your sides so you can press your bodyweight down on them of course.

I actually have some video of it here: https://www.instagram.com/p/4pkUrZP_t9/

In reply to TheFasting:

Nice looking ridge. In addition to trying to determine the conditions when you get there, follow the weather for at least the week before hand.

Consider which direction the wind has been blowing, where will it be re-distributing snow to, which slopes/ridges may have it scoured (these may form easy ways to gain height on and potentially your escape routes if you don't like the conditions) , which slopes may have become deeply loaded, is it forecast to snow and how much. Will that snow be wet or dry, will it be likely to bond with existing snow. Has there been any fluctuations in temperature and how far into the snow pack will any thaw or refreeze penetrated. Has there been any very long cold still periods with likely hoar frost development, is that hoar now buried at depth, or did it get blown away...ect. There's always something to think about.....

This will not just help you decide your route , but will also get you thinking about the snow, terrain and topography, and aid your understanding the forecast/conditions when you get there. keen ski-mountaineers / climbers / mountaineers will be following the snow not just for the week before but for the whole season.

Avalanche risk management is as much about planning/predicting in advance to avoid some slope aspects / locations as it is about assessing slopes once you get to them.

In reply to TheFasting:


Yeah, that's not going to work for you on neve......

In reply to TheFasting:

Thanks for sharing that!! Fine on soft mush but be careful on hard névé with that technique

...anyhow, looks like you were having fun!

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Yeah I'd much rather have the safety of an axe rather than trying to self-arrest with my nails and teeth or something

In reply to TheFasting:

Sounds like you've got the basics then, and should be fine on the ridge, allowing for a sensible approach/exit route and weather conditions.

Do you know if there's a Norwegian equivalent of the Scottish Avalanche Information Service? Worth a look at http://www.sais.gov.uk/ anyway to familiarise yourself with avalanche forecasting. Basic rule of thumb - if its snowed, the slopes in the wind's lee (i.e. if a westerly wind, then east facing slopes) will become loaded, and will be risky at least until a thaw-freeze cycle consolidates the snow pack.

Good luck

In reply to HTPumlumon:
Yeah we have http://www.varsom.no/

Planning for the trips I've been checking it pretty much all season, plotted routes into avalanche maps on these two sites http://skredkart.ngi.no/ , http://gis3.nve.no/link/?link=SnoskredAktsomhet . Rather not leave anything to chance regarding safety.

The one thing I'm lacking is digging a snow cave. I've watched videos about it, with the T shape and having a candle to monitor oxygen levels. If I have time during this trip I might practice that.

EDIT:

Jotunheimen right now is at "level 2", so small avalanches in avalanche prone slopes mainly due to a weak but stable layer in the snow that powder is deposited on to by winds (on the side of the mountain that is away from the wind, don't know the word for it in English), triggered by "big additional load" (so not individual climbers but a whole party). I consider that safe for this trip considering we'll be on slopes that are less than 20 degree angles, and away from avalanche run-out areas.

The powder is deposited on the eastern slopes, so this ridge we'll be climbing on the west side (or we'd fall down the cliff on the east side). Still I think we'll keep a long distance between us going over it (we're a party of 4).

Here's the route I plotted into an avalanche map https://i.imgur.com/LQqNAXv.jpg

In reply to TheFasting:


Leeward Slope


That's the assumption that gets people into trouble, Level 2 doesn't mean it's any more safe than Level 4, just the trigger mechanisms are different, additional load generally means just that, additional load to the snow pack, i.e. you.

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Yeah of course. That's why I'm staying clear of all the areas where there's any danger at all. I doubt it will be possible to trigger any avalanches at less than 20 degrees, or am I wrong in assuming that?

In reply to TheFasting:

I won't say impossible but it would be very unlikely, particularly when conditions are generally relatively safe. I think most of your assessments are fair, though I agree with richlan to be wary of your "big additional load" assumption. Generally Level 2 means natural avalanches shouldn't occur but human-induced ones might on the right slopes with the right snow conditions.

In reply to TheFasting:
Are you planning on going on an avalanche course. There are plenty of them run by the turistforetning and so on.

I'm adding that to my tick list

In reply to TheFasting:

Unless you're hell bent on going solo, it's always worth trying to find a partner with more experience for initial forays into the mountains. That way you can learn on the job, which is often the best way.

In reply to wbo:

I have had avalanche training on a ski mountaineering course and a glacier course. Also I've studied up on it on my own time. At this point I wonder if it's worth it, I think it will just be learning stuff I already know in another and more expensive way.

In reply to Michael Gordon:
Oh the "big additional load" thing is from the avalanche forecasters. The full forcast is "level 2. Avalanche size: Small. Trigger: Big additional load" etc. It's just part of all the factors that lead into the level 2 forecast. Might be different from how you guys do it.

But I guess with enough snow deposited on the leeway slopes it can be enough load in itself. That's why I checked the map that marks the avalanche run-outs or whatever you call them and plotted our route outside of it.

In reply to TheFasting: how much time did they spend on avalanches during the course. I've probably done the same reading as you, but either you just need some practical help with real world examples (meaning go out more ) or the course was too short

In reply to wbo:

I think in total I've had probably 8 hours of training on it. The gist of it is learning to use a seeker, probe, how to dig out someone who's buried most efficiently, digging snow profiles and testing, how to identify avalanche terrain (inclination, reading the forecast, dangers of different type of snow and avalanches) and planning a trip in avalanche areas (including keeping your distance when you could remotely trigger avalanches). Do avalanche courses cover much more than that?

In reply to TheFasting:


It's not just a case of what is covered, it's a case of in how much depth is it covered? As with anything, there is more than a lifetime's worth of information out there, so none of us will ever be expert. I note that your list doesn't include human factors - called 'social heuristics' in the literature (see http://www.snowpit.com/articles/traps%20reprint.pdf for an example paper). Equally, the most important thing on top of baseline knowledge is experience.

Frankly speaking, you are on the right path - it sounds like you have a good basic knowledge and are aware of the dangers. What depth of understanding, and whether you can actually put this in to practice I don't know. As you say, staying on the kind of terrain you are discussing is likely to be fine. Note likely - none of this is ever safe.

Equally, the ridge in that photo looks like easy ground if you are content with handling the consequences of travelling in it, as discussed in detail above, so I won't repeat the advice.

Most people will go out and do stuff with less awareness / knowledge / clue than you indicate you have and be absolutely fine. A small minority will not be fine. I won't say if you should or shouldn't go and solo this trip; that is your assessment to make and nobody on here really knows enough to say otherwise. I would just echo the advice above that says go out with experienced people and learn from them.

In reply to James Jackson:

I'm not going solo, but the people I'm going with have more or less the same amount of experience as I do.

I might call around to some instructors I know and see if they think a course would be useful for me. I'll sign on for one if they think so.

In reply to TheFasting:

Ah, my misunderstanding - sorry. Happy with the advice I gave regardless though; you can't spend your life not doing things because you don't know everything (none of us ever will). A lot of us were lucky enough to learn from others at key points, others do it through instructors / guides etc, some a mixture of both, and some have done it all themselves and been fine. You've got to make the call yourself, and my point is you're thinking about all the right things - from here on it's 'just' about application, experience and continual learning.

In reply to James Jackson:

Thanks. It's clear I don't know everything but it seems also to be that I need to go out and dp things to learn more at this point besides reading and courses. I just want to do it as safe as possible so my career in the mountains doesn't suddenly get cut short.

But if I'm in doubt I'll retreat. The mountains are still there next time.

In reply to TheFasting:

A very sound attitude! Let us know how the trip goes.