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Rockfax has just made a significant contribution to sustainable bolting on Mallorca with a donation of bolts to help fund the rebolting on some routes on the sea cliff of Santanyi.Read more
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In reply to UKC Gear:
Wow! Fantastic news - Loved Mallorca so much when I went last January that I arranged a trip back in April. http://www.afreebean.com/blog/tag/mallorca/
The volume and variety of climbing is epic. Even the Rockfax guide (which was excellent and our 'go to' bible) couldn't cover all the news crags being put up. But one of the things we did notice was that new routes appeared to be going up at such a rate the time and costs required for maintenance weren't available. You had to watch out, many of the routes were beautiful bolted but there were some crazy scary bolts up there as well - particularly on some of the second parts of multipitch routes. Happy to get Tijuana on the tick list for next years trip now!
Wow! Fantastic news - Loved Mallorca so much when I went last January that I arranged a trip back in April. http://www.afreebean.com/blog/tag/mallorca/
The volume and variety of climbing is epic. Even the Rockfax guide (which was excellent and our 'go to' bible) couldn't cover all the news crags being put up. But one of the things we did notice was that new routes appeared to be going up at such a rate the time and costs required for maintenance weren't available. You had to watch out, many of the routes were beautiful bolted but there were some crazy scary bolts up there as well - particularly on some of the second parts of multipitch routes. Happy to get Tijuana on the tick list for next years trip now!
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In reply to UKC Gear:
Alan, I'm glad the donations are slowly improving. I hope you recognise there is still a very long way go though if they are to match the contributions made by not for profit guides. Rockfax's total yearly "donation" across the huge number of areas covered is still half than a certain North wales guide.
Alan, I'm glad the donations are slowly improving. I hope you recognise there is still a very long way go though if they are to match the contributions made by not for profit guides. Rockfax's total yearly "donation" across the huge number of areas covered is still half than a certain North wales guide.
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In reply to Tom F Harding:
I welcome this news as well, but second the point that Tom is making. The association that publishes my local guide books (Arve Valley and Giffre Valley, France) donates €5000/year to re-bolting efforts in the area. It is my understanding that this comes from the sale of just these 2 guidebooks.
Rockfax is certainly filling a niche in the UK market, but it must ensure that it doesn't undermine local efforts.
> Alan, I'm glad the donations are slowly improving. I hope you recognise there is still a very long way go though if they are to match the contributions made by not for profit guides.
I welcome this news as well, but second the point that Tom is making. The association that publishes my local guide books (Arve Valley and Giffre Valley, France) donates €5000/year to re-bolting efforts in the area. It is my understanding that this comes from the sale of just these 2 guidebooks.
Rockfax is certainly filling a niche in the UK market, but it must ensure that it doesn't undermine local efforts.
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Actually my post above should read 'raises €5000' rather than 'donates €5000' since the whole point of the association is to ensure that the local crags are well-bolted and maintained.
One dislike already! What's not to like?!
One dislike already! What's not to like?!
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In reply to nb:
This is a UKC can of worms - I don't really understand either. It's an argument I have regularly on here and with my friends. You will get many dislikes and a few posts in favour of rockfax but it's always a very one sided argument. I think the thing to say is that if people are going to buy for profit guides over not for profit then they should be prepared to donate more money to crag maintenance and rebolting.
> what's not to like?!
This is a UKC can of worms - I don't really understand either. It's an argument I have regularly on here and with my friends. You will get many dislikes and a few posts in favour of rockfax but it's always a very one sided argument. I think the thing to say is that if people are going to buy for profit guides over not for profit then they should be prepared to donate more money to crag maintenance and rebolting.
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In reply to UKC Gear:
Good effort!
Got back this afternoon from a brilliant first visit.
The guide is excellent, and got us cragging every day across the island.
Well done
Paul
Good effort!
Got back this afternoon from a brilliant first visit.
The guide is excellent, and got us cragging every day across the island.
Well done
Paul
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In reply to Tom F Harding:
13 dislikes as I type this.
Does Rockfax have 13 employees ?
> Alan, I'm glad the donations are slowly improving. I hope you recognise there is still a very long way go though if they are to match the contributions made by not for profit guides. Rockfax's total yearly "donation" across the huge number of areas covered is still half than a certain North wales guide.
13 dislikes as I type this.
Does Rockfax have 13 employees ?
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In reply to Tom F Harding:
I'll take your word for it, but why have you quoted "donation"? Do you not think Rockfax are genuine?
> Rockfax's total yearly "donation" across the huge number of areas covered is still half than a certain North wales guide.
I'll take your word for it, but why have you quoted "donation"? Do you not think Rockfax are genuine?
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In reply to Tom F Harding:
Perhaps because it's an old can of tired worms.
> This is a UKC can of worms - I don't really understand either.
Perhaps because it's an old can of tired worms.
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In reply to UKC Gear:
Maybe you should just link to all the previous identical "discussions" on the subject and save everyone a lot of bother?
Maybe you should just link to all the previous identical "discussions" on the subject and save everyone a lot of bother?
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In reply to Tom F Harding:
If you are really concerned about the donations made by rockfax you could always buy the alternatives.
It is a business after all and not a charity.
If you are really concerned about the donations made by rockfax you could always buy the alternatives.
It is a business after all and not a charity.
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In reply to gethin_allen:
And here is the problem - market forces do not always produce the best result! Rockfax may be a business but, in many places, the competing guidebooks use any profits to keep the crags well-bolted and maintained. They are produced by local climbers and don't see themselves as either businesses or charities. They neither want your donations, nor do they want to make money - just maintain the crags.
Government is not going to make a law to protect this model - it's not their concern - so it's up to climbers to support it. It actually works very well in many places.
This is not to say that other models aren't legitimate; just that the local model should be respected if it's working.
> If you are really concerned about the donations made by rockfax you could always buy the alternatives.It is a business after all and not a charity.
And here is the problem - market forces do not always produce the best result! Rockfax may be a business but, in many places, the competing guidebooks use any profits to keep the crags well-bolted and maintained. They are produced by local climbers and don't see themselves as either businesses or charities. They neither want your donations, nor do they want to make money - just maintain the crags.
Government is not going to make a law to protect this model - it's not their concern - so it's up to climbers to support it. It actually works very well in many places.
This is not to say that other models aren't legitimate; just that the local model should be respected if it's working.
Post edited at 11:53
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In reply to gethin_allen:
This is not just a matter of individual concern. Those that buy guidebooks which don't contribute to local bolt funds and/or conservation (I'm making no judgements on Rockfax here) are effectively freeloading off those that do and wider climbing community that works to bolt and conserve crags.
This is not just a matter of individual concern. Those that buy guidebooks which don't contribute to local bolt funds and/or conservation (I'm making no judgements on Rockfax here) are effectively freeloading off those that do and wider climbing community that works to bolt and conserve crags.
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In reply to gethin_allen:
When at all possible I do as do others I know. I think it's important though that everyone buying guidebooks has all the relevant information and understand the arguments before making their purchases.
> If you are really concerned about the donations made by rockfax you could always buy the alternatives.
It is a business after all and not a charity.When at all possible I do as do others I know. I think it's important though that everyone buying guidebooks has all the relevant information and understand the arguments before making their purchases.
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In reply to sheelba:
That's a pretty judgemental attitude. I buy the best and most appropriate guidebook for the area in which I plan to be climbing, whether or not it makes a contribution to local bolt funds is immaterial when I can easily make a donation directly to the bolt fund.
> This is not just a matter of individual concern. Those that buy guidebooks which don't contribute to local bolt funds and/or conservation (I'm making no judgements on Rockfax here) are effectively freeloading off those that do and wider climbing community that works to bolt and conserve crags.
That's a pretty judgemental attitude. I buy the best and most appropriate guidebook for the area in which I plan to be climbing, whether or not it makes a contribution to local bolt funds is immaterial when I can easily make a donation directly to the bolt fund.
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In reply to planetmarshall:
when I can easily make a donation directly to the bolt fund.
Do you ??
> That's a pretty judgemental attitude. I buy the best and most appropriate guidebook for the area in which I plan to be climbing, whether or not it makes a contribution to local bolt funds is immaterial when I can easily make a donation directly to the bolt fund.
when I can easily make a donation directly to the bolt fund.
Do you ??
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In reply to Rick Graham:
Yes.
> when I can easily make a donation directly to the bolt fund.Do you ??
Yes.
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
I have just formulated and got agreement for a revised constitution for the Cumbria Bolt Fund.
Sustainable means to me that sufficient funding comes in to replace bolts quicker than they become unsafe through wear and corrosion and that the rock itself is not damaged by repeated drilling so no safe placements are possible where required.
Just made that up so more refined wording may be possible.
I have just formulated and got agreement for a revised constitution for the Cumbria Bolt Fund.
Sustainable means to me that sufficient funding comes in to replace bolts quicker than they become unsafe through wear and corrosion and that the rock itself is not damaged by repeated drilling so no safe placements are possible where required.
Just made that up so more refined wording may be possible.
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In reply to Tom F Harding:
I find the rockfax guides to be very good so I buy them, and the ones I have are for trad areas. should rockfax be contributing a percentage of sales from these guides to bolt funds? And you can't force a company to give up cash. Where should we stop? Beta Clip sticks, they are only used for sport, get them to cough up. DMM alpha sport quickdraws to be more expensive than the trad versions.
If I want to clip bolts I can decide if I want to contribute to the bolt funds.
I find the rockfax guides to be very good so I buy them, and the ones I have are for trad areas. should rockfax be contributing a percentage of sales from these guides to bolt funds? And you can't force a company to give up cash. Where should we stop? Beta Clip sticks, they are only used for sport, get them to cough up. DMM alpha sport quickdraws to be more expensive than the trad versions.
If I want to clip bolts I can decide if I want to contribute to the bolt funds.
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In reply to gethin_allen:
Asking manufacturers to contribute more is a reasonable proposition. In practice it is very hard to manage and divide any contributions in the same way the guidebook 'model' can. I.e You can use gear anywhere in the world but only use a guide in a specific place. This doesn't stop individual initiatives though which lots of companies have been involved in - Lakeland revival, climb Bristol, petzl rock trip are a few that come to mind. These can be of mixed impact but should be valued none the less. Money and equipment given to expeditions and grant organisations also has to be valued but for different reasons.
Asking manufacturers to contribute more is a reasonable proposition. In practice it is very hard to manage and divide any contributions in the same way the guidebook 'model' can. I.e You can use gear anywhere in the world but only use a guide in a specific place. This doesn't stop individual initiatives though which lots of companies have been involved in - Lakeland revival, climb Bristol, petzl rock trip are a few that come to mind. These can be of mixed impact but should be valued none the less. Money and equipment given to expeditions and grant organisations also has to be valued but for different reasons.
In reply to gethin_allen:
...and you can't force climbers to donate. But you would hope that in a small community of people who like climbing bolted rocks, there wouldn't be individuals or companies who take advantage of those who put in the time and money so we can all enjoy it.
If bolting is funded by donations - donate. If it's done through the sale of the local topo - buy the local topo. If another system is in place - respect it. It's not complicated.
And if you still have money to spare, by all means buy a Rockfax!
> And you can't force a company to give up cash.
...and you can't force climbers to donate. But you would hope that in a small community of people who like climbing bolted rocks, there wouldn't be individuals or companies who take advantage of those who put in the time and money so we can all enjoy it.
If bolting is funded by donations - donate. If it's done through the sale of the local topo - buy the local topo. If another system is in place - respect it. It's not complicated.
And if you still have money to spare, by all means buy a Rockfax!
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In reply to Rick Graham:
OK, thanks for clarifying. Sounds admirable.
I had a brief mental image of growing new sport crags. I remember a very old piece in Crags about how Pete Livesey had tried planting wall flowers...
> I have just formulated and got agreement for a revised constitution for the Cumbria Bolt Fund.Sustainable means to me that sufficient funding comes in to replace bolts quicker than they become unsafe through wear and corrosion and that the rock itself is not damaged by repeated drilling so no safe placements are possible where required.Just made that up so more refined wording may be possible.
OK, thanks for clarifying. Sounds admirable.
I had a brief mental image of growing new sport crags. I remember a very old piece in Crags about how Pete Livesey had tried planting wall flowers...
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Well, you know 3D printing is advancing all the time...
> I had a brief mental image of growing new sport crags.
Well, you know 3D printing is advancing all the time...
In reply to UKC Gear:
Rockfax could just increase the price of all their guides by a £1 bolt fund donation. Sorted.
Rockfax could just increase the price of all their guides by a £1 bolt fund donation. Sorted.
In reply to JuneBob:
It isn't quite as simple as that. For Rockfax to generate £1 extra we would need to put the price up by between £2 and £2.50 owing to the various levels of distribution in the system. We do actually give £1 for every book bought from the Rockfax web site to either a bolt fund, or the BMC Access Fund for non-bolted areas, since we get the full amount for those direct sales. We also give £1 per copy for the first 1000 to 2000 copies of new books sold anywhere to bolt funds where appropriate (which this Mallorca co-operation is connected to).
Alan
> Rockfax could just increase the price of all their guides by a £1 bolt fund donation. Sorted.
It isn't quite as simple as that. For Rockfax to generate £1 extra we would need to put the price up by between £2 and £2.50 owing to the various levels of distribution in the system. We do actually give £1 for every book bought from the Rockfax web site to either a bolt fund, or the BMC Access Fund for non-bolted areas, since we get the full amount for those direct sales. We also give £1 per copy for the first 1000 to 2000 copies of new books sold anywhere to bolt funds where appropriate (which this Mallorca co-operation is connected to).
Alan
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In reply to nb:
Many more people would buy local guides if it wasn't so difficult. Very few are available to buy online, and it's usually hard to find them on sale locally, you have to know where to look and get there at the right time (often impossible on a Sunday, the first day of most climbing holidays). My holiday is limited, so I don't want to lose climbing time to tracking down guidebooks.
Many more people would buy local guides if it wasn't so difficult. Very few are available to buy online, and it's usually hard to find them on sale locally, you have to know where to look and get there at the right time (often impossible on a Sunday, the first day of most climbing holidays). My holiday is limited, so I don't want to lose climbing time to tracking down guidebooks.
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Ah, ok. That sounds quite good. I don't know what everyone is complaining about then!
Ah, ok. That sounds quite good. I don't know what everyone is complaining about then!
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In reply to Toerag:
Yes. Often there are 3 or even 4 stages to go through.
Rockfax > Cordee > Other Big Distributor > Shop
or
Rockfax > Cordee > Specialist UK Outdoor Retailer
Each takes a percentage of the retail price hence the 'extra pound on the price' would get split between all the stages. It would be nice if we could coordinate payments, after all, everyone is making money out of selling the guidebooks, however that isn't really a practical solution. For example, you would need a lot of determination to pry a percentage of a pound out of Amazon for each Rockfax sold but even getting it from shops would be a nightmare.
Alan
> Does book distribution work on percentages of retail price then?
Yes. Often there are 3 or even 4 stages to go through.
Rockfax > Cordee > Other Big Distributor > Shop
or
Rockfax > Cordee > Specialist UK Outdoor Retailer
Each takes a percentage of the retail price hence the 'extra pound on the price' would get split between all the stages. It would be nice if we could coordinate payments, after all, everyone is making money out of selling the guidebooks, however that isn't really a practical solution. For example, you would need a lot of determination to pry a percentage of a pound out of Amazon for each Rockfax sold but even getting it from shops would be a nightmare.
Alan
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In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Most people seem to be able to find where you can buy local topos or contribute to local funds where available; if nothing else by asking on UKC. It doesnt matter what day of your climbing week its done on.
I don't think anyone sensible objects to the purchase of Rockfax sport climbing guides by UK climbers.. they are better books to plan your trip if nothing else ...its doing so without contributing elsewhere that is arguably selfish (and the fault of the climber not Rockfax). A £1 bolt donation for a sports climbing holiday is just old fashioned cliched climbing meanness but I'd lay odds its the most common situation for british climbers who go climbing with their Rockfax.
Most people seem to be able to find where you can buy local topos or contribute to local funds where available; if nothing else by asking on UKC. It doesnt matter what day of your climbing week its done on.
I don't think anyone sensible objects to the purchase of Rockfax sport climbing guides by UK climbers.. they are better books to plan your trip if nothing else ...its doing so without contributing elsewhere that is arguably selfish (and the fault of the climber not Rockfax). A £1 bolt donation for a sports climbing holiday is just old fashioned cliched climbing meanness but I'd lay odds its the most common situation for british climbers who go climbing with their Rockfax.
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In reply to Simon Caldwell:
It's certainly more convenient to order a commercial guidebook online than buy the local one when you arrive. Local operations are less professional and often don't have the resources to set up an online/shipping service. Maybe they want to cut out the intermediaries as well - as Alan says, they eat up money that could be spent on bolts.
But when you think of the effort that the equippers have gone to to clean and bolt the lines you're going on holiday to climb, surely you can make a tiny effort to buy their book and help them continue the work.
If you can't buy the topo on the first morning of your holiday, go to a popular sector and ask to look at one. Or pick a line and try it! Then go to the bar and buy the topo with your beer. It's all part of a climbing trip for me.
> Many more people would buy local guides if it wasn't so difficult.
It's certainly more convenient to order a commercial guidebook online than buy the local one when you arrive. Local operations are less professional and often don't have the resources to set up an online/shipping service. Maybe they want to cut out the intermediaries as well - as Alan says, they eat up money that could be spent on bolts.
But when you think of the effort that the equippers have gone to to clean and bolt the lines you're going on holiday to climb, surely you can make a tiny effort to buy their book and help them continue the work.
If you can't buy the topo on the first morning of your holiday, go to a popular sector and ask to look at one. Or pick a line and try it! Then go to the bar and buy the topo with your beer. It's all part of a climbing trip for me.
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
One thing you could do is more actively encourage climbers to contribute, using your donation with its reasoning as an example .. maybe run a UKC feature and call it Bolt Don't Grow on Rocks. I think this would have more of an effect that your donations. I know any climbers are plain mean but some must just be ignorant or others vulnerable to a guilt trip.
UKC could try and ensure known topo purchase venues and bolt funds are all listed on the relevant crag pages and linked to the same feature /campaign.
One thing you could do is more actively encourage climbers to contribute, using your donation with its reasoning as an example .. maybe run a UKC feature and call it Bolt Don't Grow on Rocks. I think this would have more of an effect that your donations. I know any climbers are plain mean but some must just be ignorant or others vulnerable to a guilt trip.
UKC could try and ensure known topo purchase venues and bolt funds are all listed on the relevant crag pages and linked to the same feature /campaign.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Nonsense. Most people don't try (or want) to get the local guide.
Arrive Saturday evening. Shops closed.
Sunday - shops closed.
Monday morning - track down and buy local guide.
Monday afternoon - go climbing
or
Buy Rockfax before you go.
Arrive Saturday evening. Go climbing.
Sunday - climbing. Monday - climbing.
I like guidebooks, and will always buy a local guide when I can find one quickly and easily. Which is very rarely.
> Most people seem to be able to find where you can buy local topos
Nonsense. Most people don't try (or want) to get the local guide.
> It doesnt matter what day of your climbing week its done on
Arrive Saturday evening. Shops closed.
Sunday - shops closed.
Monday morning - track down and buy local guide.
Monday afternoon - go climbing
or
Buy Rockfax before you go.
Arrive Saturday evening. Go climbing.
Sunday - climbing. Monday - climbing.
I like guidebooks, and will always buy a local guide when I can find one quickly and easily. Which is very rarely.
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In reply to Simon Caldwell:
How about a notice at the crag with a paypoint website for the bolt fund?
How about a notice at the crag with a paypoint website for the bolt fund?
In reply to Rick Graham:
Nice idea.
A more crucial idea is to simply have a public funding paypoint website available in the first place as virtually all UK bolt funds do. This can then be promoted in the climbing media and guidebooks to encourage public donations. Surprisingly there are hardly any areas in France or Spain with such web sites. In fact many local guidebooks don't mention a way that the public can contribute to bolting and many don't even mention the role the guidebook itself may or may not play in funding bolting and access. There is no bolt fund in Mallorca which is why we haven't been able to add Mallorca to UKBoltFund.org and help promote public donations.
I am sure the reason for this is because local climbers are not well practiced in sorting this kind of thing out.
I am currently trying to find out how travelling (mostly British) climbers can help at a couple of French areas and I have asked for more information about the way bolting is funded so hopefully I'll be able to report back soon. Communication is quite slow though.
Alan
> How about a notice at the crag with a paypoint website for the bolt fund?
Nice idea.
A more crucial idea is to simply have a public funding paypoint website available in the first place as virtually all UK bolt funds do. This can then be promoted in the climbing media and guidebooks to encourage public donations. Surprisingly there are hardly any areas in France or Spain with such web sites. In fact many local guidebooks don't mention a way that the public can contribute to bolting and many don't even mention the role the guidebook itself may or may not play in funding bolting and access. There is no bolt fund in Mallorca which is why we haven't been able to add Mallorca to UKBoltFund.org and help promote public donations.
I am sure the reason for this is because local climbers are not well practiced in sorting this kind of thing out.
I am currently trying to find out how travelling (mostly British) climbers can help at a couple of French areas and I have asked for more information about the way bolting is funded so hopefully I'll be able to report back soon. Communication is quite slow though.
Alan
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In reply to nb:
I wonder how many places actually do work on this model? When I was in the Jura last summer we noticed one of the sign boards at a via ferrata we did noted how that local authority had funded the VF, bolted sports crags and a climbing wall in a local school because they wanted all the residents of that district to have access to 'vertical sports' and to attract visitors to the region. Elsewhere the tourist info office photocopied the guidebook for me - I asked should I not buy it but she said they just wanted people to enjoy visiting the area (and obviously stay on the campsites, eat at the cafes etc). I know that in France and Spain the topo from the local bar to fund the bolts is the 'classic' way it has been done, but in other European countries it isn't. I don't remember ever anyone asking for bolt donations in Finland because the national climbing association gave them out (along with glue and drill bits), and would lend you their drill, for anyone willing to put in the graft to drill sports routes on the battery knackering, bit-blunting granite! I've also not seen or heard about requests for donations for bolting in Norway and Sweden where I have also done some sport climbing - that might be my ignorance though and would be interested to hear from locals in those countries how it gets funded there.
Nb, you always contribute to these threads to say this is how its done in your local area, but do you think that's still the norm in France for example?
I wonder how many places actually do work on this model? When I was in the Jura last summer we noticed one of the sign boards at a via ferrata we did noted how that local authority had funded the VF, bolted sports crags and a climbing wall in a local school because they wanted all the residents of that district to have access to 'vertical sports' and to attract visitors to the region. Elsewhere the tourist info office photocopied the guidebook for me - I asked should I not buy it but she said they just wanted people to enjoy visiting the area (and obviously stay on the campsites, eat at the cafes etc). I know that in France and Spain the topo from the local bar to fund the bolts is the 'classic' way it has been done, but in other European countries it isn't. I don't remember ever anyone asking for bolt donations in Finland because the national climbing association gave them out (along with glue and drill bits), and would lend you their drill, for anyone willing to put in the graft to drill sports routes on the battery knackering, bit-blunting granite! I've also not seen or heard about requests for donations for bolting in Norway and Sweden where I have also done some sport climbing - that might be my ignorance though and would be interested to hear from locals in those countries how it gets funded there.
Nb, you always contribute to these threads to say this is how its done in your local area, but do you think that's still the norm in France for example?
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
>Nonsense. Most people don't try (or want) to get the local guide.
Nonsense on your nonsense. You are making a contribution to the bolting you use, over and above having the local topo.
>Arrive Saturday evening. Shops closed.
>Sunday - shops closed.
>Monday morning - track down and buy local guide.
>Monday afternoon - go climbing
>or
>Buy Rockfax before you go.
>Arrive Saturday evening. Go climbing.
>Sunday - climbing. Monday - climbing.
or
ask on UKC as part of your planning where and when you can buy local topos or otherwise contribute to local bolt funds and if not inconvenient arrange that contribution.
>I like guidebooks, and will always buy a local guide when I can find one quickly and easily. Which is very rarely.
after asking on UKC finding local topos becomes a lot easier... obvious really unless you are not really that serious about buying them. This is a bigger in a moral sense than liking guidebooks, its about funding the upkeep of the bolted climbs you are expensively travelling to enjoy.
>Nonsense. Most people don't try (or want) to get the local guide.
Nonsense on your nonsense. You are making a contribution to the bolting you use, over and above having the local topo.
>Arrive Saturday evening. Shops closed.
>Sunday - shops closed.
>Monday morning - track down and buy local guide.
>Monday afternoon - go climbing
>or
>Buy Rockfax before you go.
>Arrive Saturday evening. Go climbing.
>Sunday - climbing. Monday - climbing.
or
ask on UKC as part of your planning where and when you can buy local topos or otherwise contribute to local bolt funds and if not inconvenient arrange that contribution.
>I like guidebooks, and will always buy a local guide when I can find one quickly and easily. Which is very rarely.
after asking on UKC finding local topos becomes a lot easier... obvious really unless you are not really that serious about buying them. This is a bigger in a moral sense than liking guidebooks, its about funding the upkeep of the bolted climbs you are expensively travelling to enjoy.
In reply to TobyA:
I think it is. Like you say local authorities tend to fund via ferratas and easy crags because they help bring the tourists in, but I'd say most crags that have a majority of routes in the mid-6 and upwards grade are funded by local bolting associations. I'm sure the info is online somewhere for most areas. Would be great to have it all in one place!
The Chamonix valley is a great example of an exception though. Bolting is a funded by an anarchic mix of private and public initiatives. Very often it's the local guides who do the work (generally for free), with various people/institutions providing the bolts (thank you Jon!).
It should be on the record that I have defended Rockfax's initiative to publish a guide to Chamonix in a fb discussion with a French friend. He ended up agreeing!!
> but do you think that's still the norm in France for example?
I think it is. Like you say local authorities tend to fund via ferratas and easy crags because they help bring the tourists in, but I'd say most crags that have a majority of routes in the mid-6 and upwards grade are funded by local bolting associations. I'm sure the info is online somewhere for most areas. Would be great to have it all in one place!
The Chamonix valley is a great example of an exception though. Bolting is a funded by an anarchic mix of private and public initiatives. Very often it's the local guides who do the work (generally for free), with various people/institutions providing the bolts (thank you Jon!).
It should be on the record that I have defended Rockfax's initiative to publish a guide to Chamonix in a fb discussion with a French friend. He ended up agreeing!!
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