/ NEWS: BMC launch Horseshoe Quarry Rebolting Campaign

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UKC News - on 30 Aug 2017
The British Mountaineering Council have launched a crowdfunding campaign to rebolt the popular, BMC-owned Horseshoe Quarry in the Peak District, inviting climbers to 'Become a Horseshoe Hero' and pledge via their Crowdfunder page.

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Kipper - on 30 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC News:

Can't they just ask Gary?
andybirtwistle - on 30 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC News:

Is this really the best way for the BMC to use resources?
JIMBO on 30 Aug 2017
In reply to andybirtwistle:

> Is this really the best way for the BMC to use resources?

When will this madness end? Securing outdoor climbing access and improving safety... outrageous, goes against everything the BMC stands for ;-) At least it isn't from general funds and will largely come from users of this popular venue.
USBRIT - on 30 Aug 2017
In reply to JIMBO:

I believe the BMC has spent a lot of money on Bramcrag quarry in the Lakes?
Blake - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to andybirtwistle:

I agree... they should use the money to de-bolt the crag AND add some extra polish while they're at it.
andybirtwistle - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to JIMBO:

Not what I was implying my friend.Of course improving safety is important, as as is securing access. Focusing funding and climbing traffic on one venue and feeding a "honeypot" when there are may others deserving of resources was my point.Fine if it's a start
SuperLee1985 - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC News:

Seems like a good idea to me. Visited for the first time at the weekend and there were a number of bolts missing so I'd say it is needed.
How exactly is it a waste of BMC resources when all of the money is being sourced for those that actually use the crag?
Alex Messenger, BMC - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to...

Huge thanks to everyone who has helped so far. We've raised over £3,000 in less than a day - which shows just how popular Horseshoe is!

Still lots of routes to sponsor, tees to wear and art (made out of lower-offs) to win:

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/become-a-horseshoe-hero-1?tk=ada0dc537128497242dbd02eb09ec55368470a5b

For more info on the project and why it's happening, have a read of this:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/horseshoe-rebolting-project-kicks-off

Cheers

Alex.

Bulls Crack - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to andybirtwistle:

Perhaps the BMC should renew quarrying on the site. That way they'd make some cash and most of the climbing would be unaffected.
Dan Middleton, BMC - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to andybirtwistle:

> Not what I was implying my friend.Of course improving safety is important, as as is securing access. Focusing funding and climbing traffic on one venue and feeding a "honeypot" when there are may others deserving of resources was my point.Fine if it's a start

Hi Andy, I think you'll agree that it does make sense for us to put our own house in order, as it were. You're totally right though, there are many other crags deserving some TLC, which is why since 2007 the BMC has supported bolt funds with the Better Bolts Campaign. This has provided training support, publicity and thousands of high quality bolts for activists around England and Wales. As well as supporting this project, I'd encourage anyone who sport climbs to contribute to their local bolt fund.
manod - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC:
As somebody well-versed in re-bolting sport crags who I know said, regarding this scheme: ''why is BMC paying a rope access contractor to do work which volunteers in Wales have been and continue to do?''. I agree.

The BMC is sending out a clear message and setting a precedent: that it's acceptable to pay companies for re-bolting work that has always, quite rightly, been carried out voluntarily. For this reason I'm against this idea on principle, because I don't think we should be encouraging the notion that re-equipping poorly bolted sport routes should ever be considered a 'professional' paid-for activity. I'd be in favour of donating if the money was purely to purchase equipment for volunteers to then do the re-equipping.

People re-bolt routes all the time for free - because they enjoy doing it, they get satisfaction from improving their local crags, and satisfaction from knowing others can have a quality experience as a result of their work. Bolted climbs are our resource and we're responsible for looking after them - not someone else. Remember self-sufficiency?

In the bigger picture the vast majority of British sport crags aren't owned by the BMC - with its associated land management funds to support bolting work - and I fail to see how this scheme will have anything but a negative impact on people's willingness to voluntary re-equipping sport crags.

Why would anyone do it for free if you can squeeze some money out of the BMC to do it?

I appreciate this is a crowdfunded source of money and therefore not reliant on BMC funds contributed by members (?). As such whoever donates knows the deal - that some of their money (a significant proportion?) will go not towards paying for the actual bolts, resin and drills/ drill bits - but instead towards paying a company's workforce to do work which is usually done voluntarily.

The cynic in me also wonders who's BMC staff member mate's company is going to be paid - smells like jobs for the boys?
Post edited at 10:53
Alex Messenger, BMC - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to manod:

Have a read of our detailed article here:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/horseshoe-rebolting-project-kicks-off

"The BMC as a responsible landowner has to consider health and safety issues on its land. This is not about taming the wild but warning of, or addressing dangers which may not be apparent or anticipated. Whilst any landowner has a duty of care to take reasonable measures to protect visitors from harm, what is considered reasonable may differ between a farmer with no knowledge of climbing and a national organisation that owns land for the purpose of facilitating climbing there. The duty of care for an organisation considered to be ‘expert’ regarding fixed equipment for recreational climbing means the BMC could be held to a higher standard than the average landowner. "

The work went out to tender, so no issues there. If you've any more detailed questions, it's best to contact Rob Dyer, our regional Access Officer on robd@thebmc.co.uk. He'll be happy to let you know any specifics.

Thanks to everyone who is continuing to support the campaign. The lower-off sculptures look brilliant in real life.

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/become-a-horseshoe-hero-1?tk=ada0dc537128497242dbd02eb09ec55368470a5b
manod - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC:
'People re-bolt routes all the time for free - because they enjoy doing it, they get satisfaction from improving their local crags, and satisfaction from knowing others can have a quality experience as a result of their work. Bolted climbs are our resource and we're responsible for looking after them - not someone else. Remember self-sufficiency?'

Following on from this, it's obvious that there are plenty of people in the climbing world who are competent to do re-equipping work to a standard that fulfills the BMC's responsibility, as the landowner of Horseshoe, to take 'reasonable' measures to ensure safety.

A 'reasonable' measure is to ensure competency. Competency, in this context, doesn't necessitate payment for services.

In fact I'd be surprised if some of the rope access workers aren't the very same people who occasionally carry out re-equipping work voluntarily...
Post edited at 12:06
he'snotthemessiah on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC News:

I have climbed and fallen there a fair bit this year and never really thought it needed that much doing, especially compared to some of the other peak sport venues. Suppose the odd bolt here and there would help but struggling to see where to spend £15000. Wasn't a lot of the stuff on the main wall done not too long back, they look like nice new resin bolts?

BMC, this a defiantly a job for a local climber who knows the routes not a large rope access company...

PS - If you can spare 6 bolts can you pop them in Deceptive at long tor quarry, they are old expansion bolts probably from the 1st accent back in 97!
Matt Saunders - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to manod:

I can only agree with comments stated.
Jobs for the boys indeed.

Climbing at Horseshoe has always felt safe .
I seem to recall the belays being renewed fairly recently.
That I can fully endorse and support.
But to waste BMC money on rebolting
The whole crag is a poor decision and a waste of funds.

Matt



kipman725 - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC News:

Can you dynamite it until some good routes form instead?
Alex Messenger, BMC - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to

Thanks to all 117 people who've donated a rather amazing £4,300 in less than 24 hours so far.

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/become-a-horseshoe-hero-1?tk=ada0dc537128497242dbd02eb09ec55368470a5b

In response to various questions: Not every route is being rebolted. The work went out to tender and is being done by a small rope access company who are all climbers. Pop along to Horseshoe to say hello and check out the work in progress.

There is more information on the methodology and scope in the minutes of the Peak Area Meeting from June:

http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=3859

If anyone would like more specific details, get in touch with our access team at robd@thebmc.co.uk.

In reply to Matt Saunders:

> Climbing at Horseshoe has always felt safe .

You must have been climbing at a different Horseshoe Quarry to the one I've been climbing at!

The placement of the lower bolts, particularly on the Main Wall, is really quite dangerous currently. You'd be decking out, (or close to) if you fell clipping the second or third bolts, which in my eyes - and in the eyes of many others who value their lives - is an unacceptable state of affairs.

Throughout the rest of the quarry there is no denying the rock is of variable quality too, and I'd hardly describe it as flawless and Ceuse-esq - some parts of it are tottering! As such I really do question your view of it as 'safe' venue.

Finally, as a member of the Peak Bolt Fund I would like to clarify some things. Firstly, all other re-bolting throughout the Peak is done by volunteers who do so on their own time - the same goes for all Gary (Gibson's) efforts too (which are, and have been for a great many years, herculean). These people aren't paid and frequently go beyond the call of duty in doing what they can. That said, this re-bolting operation at Horseshoe is a MAJOR undertaking. I personally offer a lot of my own time to the BMC, but for myself, the PBF, and most likely Gary too, offering the days (and maybe even weeks!) that would be required to do this free of charge is a lot to expect.

To end on a more lighthearted note: which warm-blooded climber wouldn't want to adopt the world renowned classic Shot Yer Bolt (6b+)?!?
johncook - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to JIMBO:

From talking to people, many think it is the job of the BMC to maintain the bolts for the good of all. When I suggested that they contribute to a bolt fund for that purpose their attitude was The BMC should do it for everyone.
It would be interesting to know how much is contributed by the several ODP companies and group users towards the rebolting, as many use the facilities and seem offended when asked if they contribute. Some even get stroppy when you ask them to not top-rope through the fixed anchors. (They also don't care that the rock is getting destroyed by numerous people in dirty trainers scrabbling their way up. It would be a simple (and not too expensive) matter of the group management equipping itself with a range of cheap rock-shoes and half a dozen door mats.)
Gary Gibson - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:
Hi Rob, not really. I have offered my services on a number of occasions, including the last Peak area meeting but they have been ignored or not required. I am happy to gain any form of certificate to ensure my safety but considering my past work across England and Wales, I doubt this is really necessary though? Perhaps I should start a crowdfunding process to recoup some of my past monies, which I have calculated to be around £70-80,000 of my own money but I doubt I would get much? I have had numerous donations through my website over the years http://sportsclimbs.co.uk/ but these have almost completely dried up over the past few years - I think about £300 has been donated over this time although Alan James has helped me out with some very helpful contributions.
That doesn't mean to say I will stop my regearing come donations or not. I enjoy contributing to this aspect of my sport. I am about to start by finishing off about 20-30 routes at Harpur Hill to complete my work there.
On the safety side, Legal Action and Waves of Mutilation were rebolted in the last round but not very well: you can hit the ground if you get the second clip wrong on the former and a big ledge on the latter. Can I therefore ask that these two routes are reviewed as well please?
One last comment: I cannot but support the regearing process but it surprises me you start a crowdfunding event after the work has started rather than before. If you don't achieve the £15,000 does the rest of the money come from membership money?
And if it goes over £15,000 what happens with it? Is it returned or do the contributors get to know what happens with the remainder of the 'disposable' cash. Or does the fund halt contributions when the sum is reached i.e. Is it capped?
Just some objective thoughts and queries. I hope they help.
Post edited at 15:04
emmaharrington on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC News:

Nice work BMC! Nice, new, shiny, safe, bolts for all sport climbers to enjoy!
In reply to emmaharrington:

Emma, that was far more succinct than my message, but kind of what I was trying to get that. When put this simply, what's not to like?!?
Rob Dyer, BMC - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to Gary Gibson:

Hi Gary, indeed we are looking at LA and WoM and plan to rationalise the bolting on these and a few other highlighted routes from keen regulars who have given feedback on where bolt positioning could be improved.

The Crowdfunder has started after the work due to a number of technical reasons which I won't bore you with, but mostly due to trying to gain charitable status with Paypal to take advantage of giftaid (a long process), before realising when we went to add it that in the intervening week Crowdfunder had removed Paypal as an payment option.

The £15,000 wont cover the full cost of the project, but if we hit it before the end of the deadline we can extend it with a 'stretch goal'. Any remaining costs will be paid for from the BMC Land & Property Trust budget (from where all work to BMC owned land is funded).

Thanks again to everyone who has donated so generously - we're now up to almost £4,600!

Cheers,
Rob Dyer
BMC Access & Conservation Officer (England)
stp - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC News:

So if I understand this correctly this is less about improving climbing at Horseshoe and all about avoiding any potential future litigation if someone gets injured in the future. The driving motive here is not passion for climbing or the crag but fear of ending up in court over some incident. Perhaps a cheaper way to achieve this is just to ban all climbing at Horseshoe again. They could repaint the 'No Climbing' graffiti at the bottom of the crag. It actually provides a useful marker for figuring out the starts of routes too. Obviously climbers will ignore the ban just like they always do and carry on climbing (and bolting) anyway. But should someone get hurt and try to sue the BMC can just turn round and say they were trespassing, they ignored the signs, and shouldn't have been there.

One concern is about those doing the bolting. Just because they are an access firm and are climbers doesn't mean they know how to bolt routes properly. It's always climbers who bolt routes in this country and it's pretty obvious from some routes that some people haven't got a clue. If the routes are simply having the old bolts replaced this is not an issue. But from comments above it sounds more like they'll be making the routes safer, less run out etc. To do a good job really requires an intimate knowledge of each route, where the hard moves are, where the rests are etc.

Personally I've found the bolting at Horseshoe pretty good and I've done pretty much all the decent routes there. There is one route on the RH side of Main Wall where the first bolt is really high and quite hard to get to. I used a stick to pre-clip it. But aside from that I can't see much of a need.
Mike505 on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to stp:

Those who agree with the scheme and use the quarry can donate, those who don't wish to don't have to. With horseshoe being a point of call for a lot of peoples first outdoor climbing experience (no clip stick and high bolts can make for rough introduction). I can only see making it as safe and unintimidating as possible a good thing. It also shows the aforementioned new climbers one of the many useful jobs that the BMC undertakes to benefit it's members.
he'snotthemessiah on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to Mike505:

High 1st bolts, a slight chance of decking when clipping the 2nd. They are risks that you can assess from the floor as we should all be doing anyway. Creating a situation that these things wont happen because the BMC has thought about it for you isn't really the correct approach.

There are some old bolts out in the peak which probably couldn't hold a big fall currently never mind badly spaced. Once you have swept all these up then its time to target stuff like badly spaced reliable bolts. If these are at horseshoe fair enough but a lot of them wont be...

Personally I would ask the G Gibsons of the climbing world to start putting a list together before spending to make sure we target any really bad routes then see whats left..

This is an unbiased opinion from some one with no interest in the BMC or any particular crag.


Gary Gibson - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to he'snotthemessiah: I am happy to put a list together but a lot wouldn't be at Horseshoe. In fact I try with my rebolting to change them for the better and even add the odd one or two after. If people feel a route needs changing they can contact me and I will see what I can do. Always happy to help.
If I did a list, where would you want it posting?

manod - on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:
Rob, there's a lot to like about improving sport crags with shiny new bolts and improving the bolt positioning. That isn't the point.

The point is why pay a company to do it? I haven't heard a reasonable justification yet.

Landowner's Liability.
There's no connection between paying a rope access company to bolt and guaranteeing competency. And there is no guarantee of lack of competency by using volunteers. I'm well-qualified to comment, being as I manage a rope access company; and having re-equipped more than most (not Gary!), know thing or two about equipping sport routes/crags. There are plenty of local climbers fully competent to bolt routes - indeed one says he has offered his services to your peak area BMC and been ignored.
There's also a risk that the BMC here is setting a dangerous precedent in the eyes of the law by employing the 'professional services' of a rope access company to carry out equipping work. How about the BMC practicing what it quite rightly preaches - the message that climbers should be competent to look after themselves and the crags.

Time.
It might be a big job, in which case that makes it no different to the re-equipping of any other bolted crag. They're all 'big jobs'. This doesn't mean it has to be completed in a few weeks. Where's the deadline? Why the rush? If the routes are currently thought to be dangerous then in the eyes of the law the BMC is remiss in its duty of care to allow people to climb them and should remove the bolts immediately, full stop.
Obviously this hasn't happened, becasue Horseshoe isn't a death trap waiting to happen. As is normal with these projects what's wrong with doing a couple of routes at a time when volunteers feel like doing it? As far as I'm aware there isn't a burning deadline to meet. What's the rush to pay someone all about?

As I said earlier, this sends out all the wrong messages to voluntary route equippers. Why bother doing it voluntarily if the BMC are keen to commercialise it? The same attitude could easily be extended to other other crag improvement projects..
Post edited at 20:04
he'snotthemessiah on 31 Aug 2017
In reply to Gary Gibson:


> If I did a list, where would you want it posting?

Good question. As you can see from this post, the way to get plenty of interest is to get the correct publicity.
That said I would expect the big players (BMC and UKC) to support you in this activity as its directly related to the end goal of making sport climbing as safe as it can be.

There is defiantly a way for UKC to add a useful section to this website that addresses safety (rock fall/incidents) and general topics such as re-bolting/cleaning etc. This would also probably not only help with funding but help get people involved...

Failing that I feel you may struggle to get your voice heard.
Alex Messenger, BMC - on 01 Sep 2017
In reply

Amazing! We've raised almost £6,000 so far. Huge thanks to all 145 supporters so far:

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/become-a-horseshoe-hero-1?tk=ada0dc537128497242dbd02eb09ec55368470a5b

Cheers

Alex.
yodadave on 01 Sep 2017
In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC:

Really sad to see the levels of distrust and skepticism throughout the thread.

It's crawdfunded money.
If you don't like BMC priorities get involved and shape the future of the organisation.

Or at the very least if you can't accept it go out climbing and acknowledge that you can't win 'em all
In reply to manod:

> The point is why pay a company to do it? I haven't heard a reasonable justification yet.

The decision was made by the Land Management Group, who I'm sure had their reasons; however, seeing as I don't sit on the committee I can't speak for them. That said, I trust their decision making skills (and suggest others do too) as they are the experts (and unlike Michael Gove I respect the opinions of experts).

With regards to precedents, the only one I see being set here is a positive one: that the BMC is actively encouraging a lot of people who may never have donated - or even heard of - a bolt fund to do so. In turn, they are raising the awareness of the time/effort it takes to re-bolt, the fact that it has a cost implication, and - I would hope in turn - promote the specific area bolt funds that are already out there.

All that said, I'm a glass half full kind of person so am more likely to see the positive than the negative of the initiative.

johncook - on 01 Sep 2017
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Hi Rob. Edit the political comment, that way lies grief.
How about putting links to all the bolt funds on here and also making them more prominent on the BMC web site.
I also respect the decision making of the various committees. I may not always agree with their decisions, but I can't win them all. I voice my opinions and allow democracy to rule!
Coel Hellier - on 01 Sep 2017
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Is there an option to donate the money for a ram's horn lower-off on one's favourite route?
In reply to johncook:

From a UKC perspective we run banners free of charge to promote UKBoltFund.org, but the banner design hasn't been changed for a while so maybe we could get something fresh up/running to reinvigorate the campaign - I'll add that to the 'to-do' list.

As for voicing your opinion John, your input is always listened to and appreciated at the Peak Area Meetings so keep it coming.

Look forward to catching up at the next meeting.
La benya - on 01 Sep 2017
In reply to UKC News:

I'm confused... hasn't Gary just volunteered to do this free of charge?

Considering his personal expense over the years, paying him the same as the rope access team would be great, no?

I would guess his experience is unrivaled and so any liability would be minimised just as surely as using a commercial enterprise.
highrepute on 01 Sep 2017
In reply to he'snotthemessiah:

If you have details of specific routes/bolts that need rebolting then you can let the peakboltfund know. You can so that via Facebook or by visiting thepeakboltfund.blogspot.co.uk and finding contact us link. Thanks.
Gary Gibson - on 01 Sep 2017
In reply to La benya: I did, and have at meetings, offered my services free of charge. Just provide the equipment and I would happily have done it, retiree that I am! However, I do respect the decision made by the Land Management Group and the Peak Area Committee and am in no way undermining their decisions. I have always supported democracy at meetings, I have chaired enough at a local and national level for my profession to know you have to make difficult decisions against a lot of people you have respect for.

he'snotthemessiah on 01 Sep 2017
In reply to johncook:
Just start another crowd fund for every crag......

I have already started one for me shed bolts.
Was goanna fit them myself but think I will pay someone else to do it if I get enough free cash.
Next doors shed has no bolts so I figure if I put and extra 5 on mine then next doors will defo get robbed first too.

(Sorry BMC, love you really...)
Post edited at 16:57
andybirtwistle - on 01 Sep 2017
In reply to emmaharrington:

Indeed Emma and are the BMC going to rebolt all the sports routes in the Peak never mind the country and make them all safe and shiny?
he'snotthemessiah on 01 Sep 2017
In reply to andybirtwistle

But Andy, don't you want to be an horseshoe hero?
You get a t shirt.....

I think you would look mighty pretty in one of those!
TonyB - on 04 Sep 2017
In reply to he'snotthemessiah:

> PS - If you can spare 6 bolts can you pop them in Deceptive at long tor quarry, they are old expansion bolts probably from the 1st accent back in 97!

This would be an excellent idea. It's a 2 star route in the rockfax, but when I went to Long Tor had no chalk on it, and to be honest I didn't fancy it given the condition of the bolts. I would happily donate the cost of the bolts, glue etc if someone skilled would be happy to rebolt it.

PeakDJ on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> You must have been climbing at a different Horseshoe Quarry to the one I've been climbing at!

> The placement of the lower bolts, particularly on the Main Wall, is really quite dangerous currently. You'd be decking out, (or close to) if you fell clipping the second or third bolts, which in my eyes - and in the eyes of many others who value their lives - is an unacceptable state of affairs.

Wasn't this supposed to have been sorted during the last period of work by the BMC? Maybe I am wrong, but I definitely recall them adding and replacing some bolts not that long ago, and this was supposed to make the Main Wall routes safer. If they're still as dangerous as you claim, what went wrong last time they had a similar rebolting initiative?


Rob Dyer, BMC - on 05 Sep 2017
The contractors have been busy over the last few weeks so we've posted an update on the crowdfunder page for anyone interested. It includes photos of some of the more 'interesting' bolts that are coming out which will hopefully help illustrate the need for this work: http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/become-a-horseshoe-hero-1/updates/?

Thanks again to everyone who has donated so generously so far - we're now past the halfway mark at £7,710 and counting...

Cheers
Rob Dyer
BMC Access & Conservation Officer (England)
jon on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Rob Dyer, BMC:

Be interesting to know which routes those bolts came out of. Whilst placing any sort of expansion bolts in cracks is irresponsible, it must be said that shimming out with washers isn't particularly dangerous with that type of bolt, but it's a pretty naff solution when all that was needed was the right length bolt - or a hacksaw.
danm on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to jon:

> it must be said that shimming out with washers isn't particularly dangerous with that type of bolt, but it's a pretty naff solution when all that was needed was the right length bolt - or a hacksaw.

You're right, it doesn't really weaken the bolt. It does in my opinion increase the risk of the quickdraw krab getting snagged and being loaded away from the main axis. Krabs hung up like this tend to fail at around 4kN, easily within the typical range for a sport climbing fall. So, not ideal.
jon on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to danm:

You're absolutely right. I was commenting more generally on the integrity of the bolt... and the naffness of the solution.
roger whetton on 25 Oct 2017
In reply to UKC News:

Now that the work is nearing completion can we expect to see published a list of routes rebolted, routes stripped and information on any routes that may have radically changed?
Alex Messenger, BMC - on 01 Nov 2017
In reply to roger whetton:
Our access team are just writing up a report for our site.

Meanwhile, we've also done a quick vid to show a few of the weird and wonderful bolts they found in there.

Find it on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/BritishMountaineeringCouncil/

Or embedded at the bottom of this article:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/horseshoe-heroes-crowdfunder
Post edited at 16:59
Offwidth - on 01 Nov 2017
In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC:

Brilliant little film, however the implications for older bolted quarries elsewhere in the peak are a little worrying. We are clearly back to not all bolted climbing that looks like sports climbing is sports climbing.
JamieSparkes - on 01 Nov 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

did we ever really leave?
Ramon Marin - on 02 Nov 2017
In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC:

Amazing work BMC!
Alex Messenger, BMC - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to...

Full report now on our site:

Five things we learned from rebolting Horseshoe

Plus: decommissioned routes list and info on crowdfunding and supporting your local bolt fund.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/horseshoe-rebolting-round-up



David Simmonite on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC:
Very surprised at some of the decommissioned routes, having done both Collared and Dinky Toy on more than one occasion and recently too I didn't see much wrong with them. I'm sure others will comment about other routes.

On the whole though, good job.

And of interest I rebolted most of The Thin Mexican Across the Border a few months ago and now has additional bolts so no nasty run outs. It's to the left of the BMC area so didn't get rebolted by them.

roger whetton on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC:
I'm also very surprised at some of the decommissioned routes. In particular, I've climbed The Mexicon takes Lexicon, Collared and He Seems So Sumo many times and always thought them to be some of the best easy(ish) routes at Horseshoe. There are certainly far worse!
Is it totally out of order to hope that perhaps they'll be recommissioned again one day?
David Simmonite on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to roger whetton:

The more I look at the list of routes, the more confused I get at those decommissioned. Can the BMC please supply a reason for each route that been chopped.
roger whetton on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC:

The report states that "We hope to produce an updated online topo for Horseshoe which will reflect these changes in the coming months".
This will hopefully appear soon as it would be nice to see just which routes in the "BMC Area" have been reequipped, which have been changed as a result of the work and which have not been reequipped.
Bulls Crack - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC:

Decommissioning 19 routes has led to a net gain in stars!
roger whetton on 17 Nov 2017
In reply to roger whetton:


Had a good look round Horseshoe today. If the promised topo doesn't beat me to it I'll try and document what I found but there are certainly more decommissioned routes than currently listed and enough high first bolts to justify taking your clip stick....
David Simmonite on 18 Nov 2017
In reply to roger whetton:

I look forward to seeing that Roger
Chris the Tall - on 18 Nov 2017
In reply to roger whetton:

Feel free to update the UKC database with details of any decommissioned routes.

High first bolts were always par for the course at Horseshoe - in fact quite a few regulars kicked up a bit of a fuss 10 years ago when the BMC put in a few lower down.
Christheclimber on 15:29 Wed
In reply to roger whetton:

> I'm also very surprised at some of the decommissioned routes. In particular, I've climbed The Mexicon takes Lexicon, Collared and He Seems So Sumo many times and always thought them to be some of the best easy(ish) routes at Horseshoe. There are certainly far worse!

> Is it totally out of order to hope that perhaps they'll be recommissioned again one day?

Yes I’m also surprised by some of the routes being decommissioned. I did four of these routes including The Mexicon takes Lexicon earlier in the year and all were fine at the time.
Chris the Tall - on 16:50 Wed
In reply to Christheclimber:

OK it's some time since I've climbed there, but I'm also surprised at the wholesale decommissioning of the Left Hand Walls, cos I've had some good evenings there.

I presume the problem is that the upper blocks in this area aren't stable enough for the BMC to place anchors. Though I would point out that some of these routes have over 200 logged ascents in the UKC database. Will ask around at the meeting tonight

Less surprised by some of the other routes - remember that the Long Walk looked a bit dodgy, and when I did Ma Marmalade (Upper Tier) I wrote "A contender for the worst route in the quarry. Very dubious blocks, dirty, lots of loose rock etc"

UKC database updated, though my attempts to add comments hasn't worked
Simon Caldwell - on 17:10 Wed
In reply to Chris the Tall:

So Trog is still there? I'm surprised!
Chris the Tall - on 17:20 Wed
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

It's not on BMC land, so not their responsibility. There is a warning in the BMC doc - https://www.thebmc.co.uk/horseshoe-rebolting-round-up - that "Anyone climbing at Horseshoe should be aware of the difference between the two sections of the quarry."

Never climbed Trog or any of that middle section - looked very dubious. I did spend a bit of time cleaning up Chauvi Slab on one occasion, though looking at the comments it's still/gone back to chossy.
David Simmonite on 17:21 Wed
In reply to Chris the Tall:

It seems a bit remiss to me that so many routes have been decommissioned and, like you, I've climbed many of them. If the blocks at the top are too unstable to take a solid belay then surely it's just a case of shortening the route by dropping the belay down to better rock.

Like I said, it would be good to have a report and reason for each route that's been lost, especially when you consider some that have been kept and are in a far worse state.
Christheclimber on 17:25 Wed
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> OK it's some time since I've climbed there, but I'm also surprised at the wholesale decommissioning of the Left Hand Walls, cos I've had some good evenings there.

> I presume the problem is that the upper blocks in this area aren't stable enough for the BMC to place anchors. Though I would point out that some of these routes have over 200 logged ascents in the UKC database. Will ask around at the meeting tonight

Thanks Chris,
I can’t make the meeting tonight, it would be good if you could give feedback.

Chris
Chris the Tall - on 17:25 Wed
In reply to David Simmonite:

Mr. Cellulite's Arete is still there !
Christheclimber on 17:27 Wed
In reply to David Simmonite:

> It seems a bit remiss to me that so many routes have been decommissioned and, like you, I've climbed many of them. If the blocks at the top are too unstable to take a solid belay then surely it's just a case of shortening the route by dropping the belay down to better rock.

> Like I said, it would be good to have a report and reason for each route that's been lost, especially when you consider some that have been kept and are in a far worse state.

I agree a report on the reasonings for each “decommissioned” route would be welcome.
colin struthers - on 18:45 Wed
In reply to Gary Gibson:

Any left over funds should go to a Mr G Gibson who claims to have a use for them.

Its what the members would want!
Boy - on 16:35 Fri
In reply to David Simmonite:

> It seems a bit remiss to me that so many routes have been decommissioned and, like you, I've climbed many of them. If the blocks at the top are too unstable to take a solid belay then surely it's just a case of shortening the route by dropping the belay down to better rock.

> Like I said, it would be good to have a report and reason for each route that's been lost, especially when you consider some that have been kept and are in a far worse state.




In all instances reasons for decommissioning routes were logged. Typically it was due to loose rock. Typically sufficiently large areas of loose rock such that it wasn’t possible to find sound bolt placements in multiple locations on a given route. I.e. it was not possible to complete the work to a standard approximating what was specified.
In various instances the looseness , especially on the area left of the main wall, would not have been apparent to someone climbing the route. It was only once descaling to find sound placements was undertaken (following on from a visual assessment indicating potential looseness) that the nature of the problem became apparent. In the LH main wall area the way the rock splits means that blocks tend to taper toward their base and sound looking pieces were often found to be resting on nothing but a sloping ramp of mud. In such cases due diligence meant decommissioning. Have a look at the quantity and size of removed rock on the floor in this area next time you are there, some of this took disturbingly little effort to remove. As a fellow climber I found this sobering. We could argue all day about whether some subjective decisions were too little or too much, but what is beyond doubt is that the BMC’s work removed some real deathtraps.
Any of these decisions are reversible of course (unlike a 2 tonne block landing on your head), maybe after heavier scaling than was part of our spec.

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