/ Abseiling down Parthian Shot by Bournemouth University

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Ben C - on 03 Dec 2017

Bournemouth Uni Climbing Club well done for taking the abseil down once told about the international significance of Parthian Shot but please read the guidebook or Google first in future! https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3828

It might be worth a read of this too regarding groups and monopolising climbing areas https://www.thebmc.co.uk/5-steps-to-planning-the-perfect-freshers-climbing-meet
Post edited at 18:30
FactorXXX - on 03 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:

What a bunch of total cocks!
alx - on 03 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:

Was the average student age about 60?






(I’m from Bournemouth originally)
The New NickB - on 03 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:

That’s a long way to go abseiling, don’t they know Swanage and Portland are just down the road.
FactorXXX - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to FactorXXX:

What a bunch of total cocks!

To the Dislikers, I assume that you somehow condone such behaviour?
Gordon Stainforth - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to The New NickB:

There are quarries in Dorset that are perfect for abseiling, about 15-20 miles from Bournemouth.
dave657 on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to FactorXXX:

They made a mistake and stopped once this was pointed out. Calling them total cocks is a bit if an over reaction and unnecessary, which is why I hit dislike.
FactorXXX - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to dave657:

They made a mistake and stopped once this was pointed out. Calling them total cocks is a bit if an over reaction and unnecessary, which is why I hit dislike.

I might have misread the bit which said the perpetrators actually took the abseil down. Obviously too keen to vent my anger for which I apologise.
Saying that, what on earth processed a University Club to do it the first place?
Andy Hardy on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:

Were they abseiling or top roping?
Hat Dude on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:

To be fair, apart from the top bit they wouldn't actually be touching the route and there wouldn't exactly have been a queue ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
toad - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:
Given they immediately acted to remove the abseil once their error had been pointed out to them, was it necessary to “name and shame”? You could have talked about a group doing this and flagged the BMC best practice guide without being specific
Dave Garnett - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to FactorXXX:

> Saying that, what on earth processed a University Club to do it the first place?

To be fair there isn't much about Burbage South at the the moment to suggest it's ever been climbed on.
Hardonicus - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> Were they abseiling or headpointing?

FTFY
fromsinkingships on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:

If they weren't obstructing people from climbing it then what's the problem. Am I missing something? Or is it merely the fact that how dare they do such a pedestrian activity on a revered piece of rock?
Ben C - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to toad:
Yes I think it was necessary. I could have been a lot less polite about it. Hopefully they are more likely to see mention of it and other such groups will realise the impact they have. There is plenty of information out there in general terms.

There were plenty of other points I could have raised but didn’t so let’s say this was middle ground diplomacy.
deepsoup - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to fromsinkingships:
The main problem is that group abseiling polishes the rock, and can trash particularly small holds in a very short time.

Any route becoming polished is a problem, but it's all the more severe on the hardest of routes that depend on very small holds and marginal friction.
alanblyth - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:

What's the criteria for routes that can or can't be abseiled? I don't want to upset anyone and get shamed on UKC!
Kemics - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to deepsoup:

People talking about polish on gritstone must have never touched limestone! There are 5 polished holds on all of grit: 3 on flying buttress original and 2 on crack and corner...that’s it!
Michael Gordon - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to alanblyth:

> What's the criteria for routes that can or can't be abseiled? I don't want to upset anyone and get shamed on UKC!

Stick to v-diffs and you should be OK
AlanLittle - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Kemics:

I was pretty shocked by the state of the footholds on Banana Finger recently compared to when I was last on it some time in the mid 80s.

Suspect probably not due to groups abbing down it though.
alanblyth - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Stick to v-diffs and you should be OK

What's the thinking? v-diffs often get the most traffic, possibly requiring the most care to ensure they are enjoyable for many many years to come, (also you are likely to obstruct someone else who might like to climb the route).

Personally I'm pretty unlikely to abseil anything on grit unless it's the required descent, but I'm interested to know what OP thinks is acceptable/not acceptable. I think I would object to an instructor or centre that visited the same spot with flailing leg clients often enough that it would start to affect the rock, but for most routes, I don't see the harm in a group abseiling on it for a few hours once a year?

I'm totally open to changing my stance, and interested in your viewpoint,
Pedro50 on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to alanblyth:

I don't think one should ever abseil on a crag except to retrieve gear. It's a skill that can be learned elsewhere.

We were asked to set up an abseil at Birchens on our SPA training. We declined.
Tom V - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Kemics:

Plus a lot of Zapple and the same with Louie Groove.
Michael Gordon - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to alanblyth:

I just don't think anyone is going to be too worried about crucial pebbles (for example) on a v-diff.

I agree that overly polished routes aren't nice though. Abseiling groups can be even more of a problem on some softer sandstone crags where the top-outs get really worn.
Fraser on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to alanblyth:

> What's the criteria for routes that can or can't be abseiled? I don't want to upset anyone and get shamed on UKC!

Too late - up against the wall!
Goucho on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:

I wonder which causes the most damage/polish to routes.

University groups on their annual 'Freshers' abseiling trips, or the large numbers of 'proper climbers' working routes two grades harder than they can climb on a regular basis throughout the year?

Just a thought!
Deadeye - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:

well at least they didn't rip any flakes off it and spoil it fo rthe next generaiton...
ah - on 05 Dec 2017
Thanks for posting Ben.

Aside from the "you're not the boss of me" and "yeah but what about this", to my mind there are 3 straightforward(ish) points.

1. Everything climbing related contributes to wearing out routes to some level. Obviously we're still going to climb but it's the responsibility of every climber to minimise their impact as much as possible.

2. Multiple people abseiling down what is arguably the most iconic route in Britain, which relies on crucial pebbles and an already brittle flake isn't a good idea. Especially when it's wet and the rock is more prone to breaking.

3. Any group, student or otherwise (indeed all climbers), should be clued up on what damages the rock and which routes are "important" and easily damaged. Search for the info online, read guidebooks, ask other people at the crag. Don't just do something without research.

They graciously took down the rope as soon as they knew what the route was, thanks for that. The ideal would be if everyone checked first and the rope didn't go down there in the first place. Maybe the BMC could have a contact who works directly with student groups to keep them informed...

Headpointing etc. is an entirely different issue, let's focus on one thing at a time.

Well said me, you're welcome
Hugh Mongous - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Goucho:

> I wonder which causes the most damage/polish to routes.

> University groups on their annual 'Freshers' abseiling trips, or the large numbers of 'proper climbers' working routes two grades harder than they can climb on a regular basis throughout the year?

As a ratio of amount of polish contribution per hour spent on a route, I'd have thought the freshers. In terms of amount of polish contributed over a climbing lifetime I'd guess the 'proper climbers'. Presumably those who spend most their time onsighting would be better proportionally than the freshers, but contribute more than the red-pointers. Of course it's the ball-pointers who are the most conservationally minded of all. Yay them!

PS - couldn't help but notice the 7c red-point in your logbook - 2 grades above your stated on sight max ;-)

Goucho on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Hugh Mongous:

> PS - couldn't help but notice the 7c red-point in your logbook - 2 grades above your stated on sight max ;-)

Only 1 grade actually, and just the once on a French sport climb
Wanderer100 - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:

What? Unbelievable! Bournemouth has a University??
summo on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:

Curious outrage here. It's a route 99.9r% of us will never climb. But there are hundreds of routes worn all the time that most of us could climb, through totally needless abseiling off the top instead of walking round.

Ps. I don't agree with it either.
Goucho on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to ah:
> Thanks for posting Ben.

> 2. Multiple people abseiling down what is arguably the most iconic route in Britain, which relies on crucial pebbles and an already brittle flake isn't a good idea. Especially when it's wet and the rock is more prone to breaking.

It may well be an iconic climb, but 'arguably the most iconic route in Britain' is possibly stretching the 'arguably' bit somewhat.

> Headpointing etc. is an entirely different issue, let's focus on one thing at a time.

Well when it comes to damaging and polishing the rock, it isn't actually.

What is likely to do the most damage to Partheon Shot, a bunch of Freshers abbing down it a few times, or several top climbers taking repeated falls onto the flake?

While I agree that when organising abseiling sessions, Universities (or any groups for that matter) should be careful with their selection of route(s), there does seem to be a certain amount of snobbery going on whenever this kind of thing raises its head.

And if we are serious about our collective concern for the precious nature of routes, then maybe we should collectively practise what we preach.

There are 5 miles of brilliant routes at Stanage, yet on an average day, you'd only think there were the Popular and Plantation areas?

I'm far more concerned about the damage and polish caused by the 'honeypot' approach to crag and route selection, which affects a huge number of climbs, than a few novice beginners failing to be aware of the significance of a route which might be on the hit list of 0.01% of the climbing population.
Post edited at 08:40
Offwidth - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to AlanLittle:

I suspect most of that polish is also down to selfish behaviour... climbing it when damp; 'better' climber's doing it in trainers; or those in climbing shoes who didn't clean their feet properly.

Abseiling classic hard routes is potentially serious, especially those dependant on pebbles. Yet so is dogging on cams on worn cam placements at Birchen (and a few starred VS climbs on Stanage are heading that way); more serious still is overbrushing or not cleaning feet on delicate grit boulder problems... such erosion in the last 20 years is way more problematic on average than on grit routes. Grit VDiffs have held up surprisingly well to group abuse... some popular rhyolite group venues less so. Softer rocks like southern sandstone required their own ethical code to avoid total trashing.

In the end all of us need to respect the rock, some of us much more so than we currently do.
Offwidth - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Goucho:
That stuff about Stanage is complete nonsense. In my 30 years there I've noticed virtually zero difference on polish on popular easier classic climbs at the Popular End (oldies told me nailed boots did by far the majority of this damage and there is an ancient black and white film somewhere that has the heavily damaged footholds shining out against the darker undamaged blank faces). The current menace on bumbly routes at Stanage is cam damage on flakes and more recently dogging on cams grinding through the hard surface rock on breaks on some cruxy VS classics mainly due to excess dogging. Plantation boulders in contrast have been heavily eroded in places.

The main reason to climb the quieter lines at Stanage is they were never trashed by nails in the first place so you get to feel grit friction, at lower grades, as it should be and some moderate traffic keeps them clean.
Post edited at 09:20
fromsinkingships on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to ah:

"an already brittle flake", Will Stanhope ripped it off over 6 years ago.
deepsoup - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:
> oldies told me nailed boots did by far the majority of this damage and there is an ancient black and white film somewhere that has the heavily damaged footholds shining out against the darker undamaged blank faces

There's no doubt nailed boots did a lot of damage, you only have to visit Laddow to see that. Foot holds you can see your face in on routes that have seen hardly any traffic in 60 years or more.

I'm not so sure about 'darker undamaged blank faces' though - I believe there was much less lichen back then on account of the rather poor air quality. All those coal fires in Manchester and Sheffield, let alone the heavy industry when the wind was blowing in from across the Lower Don Valley. Perhaps they're temporarily clean footholds shining out against the darker still-covered-in-soot blank faces.
Goucho on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

> That stuff about Stanage is complete nonsense. In my 30 years there I've noticed virtually zero difference on polish on popular easier classic climbs at the Popular End (oldies told me nailed boots did by far the majority of this damage and there is an ancient black and white film somewhere that has the heavily damaged footholds shining out against the darker undamaged blank faces). The current menace on bumbly routes at Stanage is cam damage on flakes and more recently dogging on cams grinding through the hard surface rock on breaks on some cruxy VS classics mainly due to excess dogging. Plantation boulders in contrast have been heavily eroded in places.

> The main reason to climb the quieter lines at Stanage is they were never trashed by nails in the first place so you get to feel grit friction, at lower grades, as it should be and some moderate traffic keeps them clean.

I did my first climbing at Stange in 69', and over the past 45 years, I've certainly seen an increase in the amount of polish - especially on the popular 'honeypot' routes.

And whilst the use of nailed boots in the early days undoubtedly resulted in some damage, I don't think you can realistically attribute a large part the current state of affairs to this.

I've also seen a huge change in attitude and acceptance of people 'dogging' easy to mid grade classics, something which, rightly or wrongly' in the 70's and even early 80's, you'd have been laughed off the crag for.

However, you are quite right that the damage caused by cam placements is one of the biggest causes of damage on grit - especially badly placed cams.
Dave Garnett - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to fromsinkingships:

> "an already brittle flake", Will Stanhope ripped it off over 6 years ago.

Quite. Not, in fact, muddy-booted student abseiler. Not that I'm encouraging thoughtless abseiling but let's all keep a sense of proportion.
ah - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> "an already brittle flake", Will Stanhope ripped it off over 6 years ago.

> Quite. Not, in fact, muddy-booted student abseiler. Not that I'm encouraging thoughtless abseiling but let's all keep a sense of proportion.

Not quite. Part of the flake was snapped, some of it is still there and was used by Ben Bransby when he re-ascended at E10. Details here - Parthian Shot (E10 6c).

As I said, it'd be great if people do research *first*.

Anyone who attempts to climb Parthian Shot now is going to be pretty aware of the damage a fall could do to the flake (and themselves). A "muddy-booted student abseiler" isn't.
Offwidth - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Goucho:
I think you must have visited a different Stanage to me. I've climbed with various old fogies who predate your visits and they agree (more accurately, they informed me ) that the vast majority of the polish on lower grade classics was in place by the late 60's. They also say plenty of top-roping and dogging still happened with beginners in the 60's and 70's on the lower grades, so get rid of those rose tinted specs please.

In reply to Deepsoup...

Air pollution tends to be acidic and won't attack acid rocks much. I don't see much damage being due to that on gritstone but you are almost certainly right it added to contrast in those old black and white films with the rock discolouration.
Post edited at 11:21
planetmarshall on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to AlanLittle:

> I was pretty shocked by the state of the footholds on Banana Finger recently compared to when I was last on it some time in the mid 80s.

Footholds?
Dave Garnett - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to ah:

> Not quite. Part of the flake was snapped, some of it is still there and was used by Ben Bransby when he re-ascended at E10. Details here - Parthian Shot (E10 6c).

Yes, thanks, I know the story. If we were being hypercritical we could argue that anyone capable of attempting the line should already have been aware of the risk of placing a cam there, so let's be nice and cut everyone a bit of slack, including the occasional muddy-booted student.


duchessofmalfi - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to planetmarshall:

"Footholds?" I think he was referring to the horribly smooth and polished dimple the lateral size of a 20p piece and the depth of the thickness of a 2p piece, not quite big enough to put a toe in, no edge to speak of and with the frictional qualities of Mr Sheen.
pebbles - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:
"oldies told me nailed boots did by far the majority of this damage" I'v heard this but am not convinced - some of the easier routes at almscliff have become noticeably more polished in the last 13 years (ie how long I'v been climbing trad, which is why I can be precise) notably Birds Nest Crack, but that certainly wont be the work of nailed boots
Post edited at 14:19
Dave Garnett - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

> I think you must have visited a different Stanage to me. I've climbed with various old fogies who predate your visits and they agree (more accurately, they informed me ) that the vast majority of the polish on lower grade classics was in place by the late 60's.

Depends what you mean by lower grade but certainly things like Roscoe's Wall, Saul's Crack and Rubberneck are now much more polished than they were in the 70s.

The starts of the Mincer, Slab and Arete, and Crack and Corner (Roaches) too.

But I agree, cam damage is worse. The crucial big pocket on Gumshoe is now practically unusable as a reliable gear placement, for instance.

Gordon Stainforth - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Dave Garnett:

The thing is that there's very little we can do about polish, given that sticky boots are quite abrasive, but a lot of cam damage is unnecessary (badly and carelessly placed, or used instead of perfectly good nut placements).

PS. When I said good nut placements I was thinking particularly of Hexcentrics. I can't see that something like this does any damage to the rock at all:

http://www.rockclimbingcompany.co.uk/images/hexentric-placement-3.jpg
Post edited at 15:11
alanblyth - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Pedro50:

I can get behind an ethic (National or local) for a clear "No abseiling on established routes, other than where no other descent is possible", that seems like something everyone could understand and abide by.

Lots of indoor walls have abseiling platforms, but I don't think they generally allow uninstructed groups to use them, maybe university groups could talk to their local wall about teaching these necessary skills there?
Michael Gordon - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to ah:

It's curious the way Parthian Shot has been entered in UKC. Rather than just one modified entry, a pre and post Nov 2013. I guess this is handy to see who has climbed it in its old vs new state, but you could tell that from the dates anyway. Ben Bransby's ascent was obviously significant but it seems strange that it gives the impression he's the FA (if you don't check the other entry).
scoobydougan - on 06 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

What time is my Wife coming home tonight shes got OFSTED in and if there happy they won't be back tomorrow so she'll get off at a reasonable time, but if they're not she'll have to work late. My mate wants to go to the wall you see so I could do with knowing?
Offwidth - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Dave Garnett:

My comments were my experience from the late 80s on Stanage Popular's busy climbs (the things Goucho complained about) and from what old men who started there well before the late 60 told me about Stanage. As someone above pointed out (and something I've also discovered) Laddow, as an early Peak honeypot, has fully polished holds you can find after the removal of many inches of turf.

Gordon says climbing shoes are abrasive. They are the exact opposite; and if used well (put clean shoe on clean hold in right place and don't move it) the potential for any damage is negligable. As for your Roaches routes, my theory would be more climbing was done in the 70s and early 80s with poorer quality footwear and in poorer conditions (I've noticed there has been a further decline in wet weather play on grit since I started... good ethics in my view) . When climbing grit routes in damp conditions it's almost impossible to keep holds or shoes clean and moving surfaces seperated by an abrasive sand is ideal for a polishing effect.
Offwidth - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to pebbles:

I've done Birds Nest at least every five years for the last 25 years. Most of the wear was there on my first visit. Im not denying modern polish occurs but you need moving surfaces and some abrasive to get maximal effect. Good footwork and clean modern shoes and clean dry rock should be doing less damage en masse than one numpty in dirty clumpy boots with no techniques. Talk to a few Tribologists.... I have.
simes303 - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:

They've got as much right to abseil down it as anyone else has to climb up it. Climbers don't own the crags.
pebbles - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

its absolutely getting worse! its my local crag so I notice such things. and the thing is, its a popular easier crack route for people starting to learn to jam (sinker jams, bombproof gear) so it wont be getting good footwork or good technique, it will be getting slithering and scraping; everyone has to begin with bad footwork in order to learn good footwork. Even reasonably experienced limestone climbers tend to flail and slide on their first time out on grit, as I'm sure youve seen many a time
Kid Spatula - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to pebbles:

I've never seen anybody do The Goblin and it's possibly the most polished climb at Almsliffe, similarly most people now do Zig Zag Direct as the Zig Zag appears to have been coated in Mr Sheen.

One of the most polished climbs I've ever seen was at Ilkley Rocky Valley about ten years ago, and you'd rarely see anyone on that buttress as it pretty much reclaimed by nature.
pebbles - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Kid Spatula:

The Goblin ? its one of my favourite climbs for a giggle! certainly not the worst polished, though the polish is bad in places. Some of the climbs near Black wall on the fence side though are utterly horribly pieces of slipperiness with little gear at the start...proper ankle crockers. The start of Bird Lime traverse, start of South Chimney layback oh and V chimney on Low Man are all total shockers for a highly polished sheen you could put your contact lenses in by
simes303 - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to simes303:

> They've got as much right to abseil down it as anyone else has to climb up it. Climbers don't own the crags.

Lots of dislikes, but it's true.
Si.
Gordon Stainforth - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

> Gordon says climbing shoes are abrasive. They are the exact opposite; and if used well (put clean shoe on clean hold in right place and don't move it) the potential for any damage is negligable.

Are you sure about this, Steve? I was once told, possibly incorrectly, by a climber who was an engineer, that sticky rubber contained something very like carborundum. I think we've debated this before, haven't we? Certainly it's a complex compound containing 'tackifiers'. I feel rather certain that if you took a piece of sticky boot rubber and rubbed it very fast like a piece of sandpaper on a bit of limestone it would polish the surface to some extent. ? ?
jon on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> I feel rather certain that if you took a piece of sticky boot rubber and rubbed it very fast like a piece of sandpaper on a bit of limestone it would polish the surface to some extent. ? ?

I think the clue is in what he said:

> (put clean shoe on clean hold in right place and don't move it)

Kid Spatula - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to pebbles:

Forgot Square Chimney. Possibly due to repressing the memory. That's the most polished thing at Almscliffe.
Gordon Stainforth - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to jon:

Well, I agree with that completely. But a lot of climbers don't climb that well or neatly. I'm simply interested in what happens, scientifically, with many heavily weighted boots moving slightly on holds over a long passage of time.

PS. Also, another problem is that sticky boots are not always completely clean, particularly on wet days when there is mud/dirt on ledges. I'm sure that much more damage is done to rock in wet conditions than when it's dry.
Post edited at 09:32
Pedro50 on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to simes303:

> Lots of dislikes, but it's true.

> Si.

It's not a question of rights, it's a question of common sense.
Non-climbers as we know are fascinated by abseiling. Their appetite can be better satisfied on bridges viaducts etc.
Climbers learn to abseil as a tool of the trade - retreat, reaching the foot of a sea cliff, retrieving stuck gear etc.
No experienced climber would want to abseil down a grit crag for fun would they?
So the experienced climber demonstrating abseiling to a beginner at a grit crag is failing to pass on common sense and good practice to the next generation.
pebbles - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Kid Spatula:

nope, square chimney is very polished, but I will still raise you the starting moves of bird lime travesre as the most slippery thing on the crag. As a child, I have slid down less polished stone balustrades, polished by hundreds of child bums. and no gear till you get above the slippery start, just to add to the prang possibilities. althuogh speaking of that, there is the gorse bush at the base of the initial jamming crack of South Chimney Layback waiting for unwary victims....
pebbles - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

specially when they are learning! most people have their first expereinces on a top rope of some kind, (whether or not somedoy else has led it for them). Then they make their way up as best they can, occasionaly with grace and precision but more often with feet flailing and skidding madly as their friends try to explain to them how to place their feet. Its not a criticism or grumble, its just what happens.
Offwidth - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to pebbles:
I'm sure it is getting slightly worse. My point was most of the damage I've seen on BNC had been done when I first climbed it in the mid 90's. I've been there a lot and the route is great fun, partly as the sharper crystals have worn off, and so it makes a pleasant secure solo if you can jam. I will admit its been a few years since I did it last: during prep for the most recent YMC grit guide.

Some of the worst group practice I've seen on grit (kids with dirty damp trainers being dragged up with uncontrolled feet) has been on Low Man. Those routes are still OKish compared to some other popular group-use routes in other parts of the UK.

I'm saying good ninjas don't damage grit and even the tr numpties are not trashing routes. Trad climbers pushing things too hard on safe routes and grinding weighted cam placements are trashing routes. Some popular boulder problems are also getting trashed.
Post edited at 11:24
Offwidth - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Polishing is way more efficient when there is a loose abrasive agent. Limestone polish will be mostly due to movement of dirty shoes (or clean shoes on rock dust/sand). I'm an Engineer/Materials Scientist but its a sub-profession with many branches and like any good Engineer I will listen most to specialist experts. I've been told clean hardened rubber moving on clean rock is not going to be a significant cause and if there is no movement there is no eroding mechanism.
pebbles - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to simes303:

> Climbers don't own the crags.

<pedantry alert>
Technically untrue at Horseshoe, Bwllch y moch and Crookrise ;-D ;-D


John Stainforth - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

Many gritstone areas have way less friction than they used to have forty to fifty years ago. The Almscliff boulders are a case in point. Everyone I have ever seen bouldering there has cleaned there shoes carefully and is using careful footwork. This decrease in friction is quite a mystery!
Offwidth - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to John Stainforth:

Well I've almost certainly been there more often than you during the prep period for the recent YMC guide. I've seen plenty climbed without clean shoes and even some climbed in trainers by talented but unthinking climbers clearly not getting the potential damage to easier classics. The same happens in my experience in the peak, in font... you name it. We all need to watch our ethics and educate others with les experience as to why its important. The most serious damage on grit boulders is relatively recent (mainlh since the late 90s) widespread in popular classic areas but usually due to over-brushing or from climbing on damp softer rock. When the surface goes on grit the matrix erodes way more quickly as its softer and leaves a sandy abrasive coat. There was a delightful 6A on bullet scars on the end of one of the Burbage South Valley problems that is now a trashed 4C on quite big sandy wounds (might be this one: Cicely (f4+) ). We are lucky that lots of stabilising work has been done over the years in places like Newstones or the start holds would be an even bigger gouged mess by now.
John Stainforth - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

Many thanks for the detailed description of what has happened in the last twenty years ago. Probably most younger climbers don't realise how much the friction has deteriorated over the decades, so they don't see this as much of a problem.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Ben C:
I think as a user group, some climbers like to exert our sense of morality onto other user groups in ways which is not always immediately obvious.

Drilling into rock? Fine.

Taking whippers onto gear? Fine.

Taking multiple whippers and taking off a flake? Unfortunate, but still fine.

Taking a chizle and a wire brush to the rock because certain holds are too uncomfortable? Fine.

Big boots on easy routes in the rain? Fine.

Abbing down routes stripping them of vegetation or "cleaning"? Fine.

Abseiling when there's no other choice? Fine.

Teaching a partner to abseil at the crag? Fine.

Abseiling for convenience in order to climb more that day? Fine.

Getting a massive sledge hammer and belting some stakes into the ground? Fine.

Wearing shoes with scratchy metal bits on them and metal hooks to climb bare rock in the summer? Fine in some places.

Abseiling down one piece of rock with no routes on? Fine.

Abseiling down a slightly different piece of rock? WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT'S PARTHIANS SHOT?! GET DOWN IMMEDIATELY I REPORT YOU ON UKC.

:/.
Post edited at 23:37
Michael Gordon - on 08 Dec 2017
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Ah but they should have known! To be honest I'd be pretty reluctant to ab down this, if only because of piss taking ("Checking it out for the lead, mate?"). The key I think is to pick some unimpressive line for an abseil, not a big prow - that way you can be sure it's not a classic hard grit route.
Offwidth - on 08 Dec 2017
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:
Climibing ethics can look oddly complex but if your maxim is respect the rock within the sensitivities of each venue then the lines drawn on such cases starts to make much more sense. If you ignore that, your type of argument becomes whataboutery... other wrongs don't make something ethically right. The BMC provide guidance on abseil venues in the Peak with numerous suitable alternative venues to those that have have sensitivities and the Parthian Prow is not a good choice for various reasons in that guidance, so complaining about it is hardly unreasonable. I can't find the file currently as the BMC site search tools need sorting out (maybe someone from the BMC can link it) but the some general advice on groups is here:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/5-steps-to-planning-the-perfect-freshers-climbing-meet (with a link to the green guide for groups of climbers and the green guide for grops of walkers)

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/green-guide-to-the-uplands
Post edited at 09:46
descender8 - on 09 Dec 2017
In reply to dave657:

Massive cocks is a more correct term -
descender8 - on 09 Dec 2017
In reply to simes303:

What a bell end reply ! Nobody OWNS the rock - yes we know - ate you saying that's a good enough reason to ruin it ! ?
Your either a lame troll or a massive bell end ?
descender8 - on 09 Dec 2017
In reply to simes303:

Oh it's true alright !
Bell end !
descender8 - on 09 Dec 2017
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Rightly so , and your point is ?
simes303 - on 15:11 Mon
In reply to descender8:

> Oh it's true alright !

> Bell end !

Thank you.
Greenbanks - on 00:43 Tue
In reply to simes303:
First World problems guys. Yes, important to some extent. But get a sense of proportion. They did it, apologised and so the main thing for UKC is to really emphasise the point by making this the thread of the moment. Go and climb something. I sometimes do despair of self-righteous, opinionated posters....oops, there I go again
Post edited at 00:50
Michael Gordon - on 07:19 Wed
In reply to Greenbanks:

>They did it, apologised and so the main thing for UKC is to really emphasise the point by making this the thread of the moment.

I quite agree. And it's hard to come up with any other enforceable punishments.


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