UKC

If someone claims to hold the SPA qualification, or be a British Mountain Guide, or a IFMGA mountain guide, or AMGA guide, etc. - then how do you check that they actually hold the qualifications that they claim? None of the associated websites seem to hold an accessible online database of guides (at least that I can find).  I could ask individuals for proof I guess, but then I wouldn't really know if whatever bit of paper they produce was genuine - always assuming they don't just tell me to *uck off.

For French guides there is a list at http://www.guides-montagne.org/guides - I thought I'd seen an equivalent on the BMG website but either I'm misremembering or its been removed. Does seem odd not to have such a list, guess you coud always email the BMG and ask if a given individual was a member ?

I very much doubt they'd tell you to f off - they have to work for a living after all! It's a reasonable question and many contractors routinely get asked for their tickets. 

I don't know about the higher-level guide qualifications that you've mentioned but for SPA/RCI or ML awards, if they're members of the MTA, they'll be listed on the MTA website:

https://www.mountain-training.org/find-a-leader

It's not required to be a member of the MTA, so not being listed wouldn't prove they weren't qualified. But it would be a way of finding someone that you can definitely prove is.

They might if they're telling porkies.

For UK ones, ask for access to their mountain training profile if you don't trust the paper copies. Providing copies of qualifications is totally standard and I would be surprised to not be asked for it. Most employers accept scanned copies emailed to them, some want the actual paper copies. I have a file saved that I can just attach for each ticket.  

For any British qualification you should be able to find the person on the Mountain Training system called tahdah.  For example heres mine - https://mt.tahdah.me/profile/index/105614

If you google the persons name followed by "cms" (candidate management system) or "mountain" it usually pops up in the first couple of google hits unless they have a famous name sharer.

This should also tell you whether they are a member of the relevant organisation which is important as should prove that the individual is current with CPD etc.  

If they are a Guide they need to be a member of the BMG and you can find them on their site here - https://www.bmg.org.uk/find-a-guide/  Guides can't work without being members I believe.

Personally I would doubt that anyone qualified would have any issue with you asking to see their qualifications (while you're at it you could ask to see their insurance too) as qualified professionals are usually keen to separate themselves from those that arent.

Seems simple - these are not the people you would employ.

Still doesn't really address the issue though.

If they have Mountain Training Associate Membership They will have an 'ID card' with the membership number, profile picture and qualifications listed on it 

Hi Andy,

As other have said, its normal to be asked for a copy of your awards, especially if working with schools etc, as they need it for their paper work, I never have an issues sending copy's and my insurance, I have them so why not. 

There is the the MT site, but I know some people have had issues with this data base and don't always show up. 

Also some may be members of an associations, the Association of mountaineering instructors AMI this is for MCI (MIA) WMCI (MIC), but you don't have to be a member.

If you have doubt about what you are being shown or seeing online, you can always phone the Mountain Training and talk to them. or the British mountain guides, both would be very interested if someone is claiming to hold an award they don't

Here in France its easy, as to legally work you need to hold a Carte Professional (including those that are from a different country working here even for a short period of time, they get a temporary carte) so just ask to see that. if they don't have it they are illegal. (they may still hod a uk award but its not recognized to work in France)

If you have something specific and would like more advice feel free to get in touch, I hold a lot of the UK awards and French as well.

Cheers Rob

Everyone with a Mountain Training qualification will have unique candidate number you can use to check their qualifications. If they won’t prove their qualifications a. Don’t use them and b. You can contact mountain training directly to verify their qualifications using their name.

For example google “Alex Riley 162568” and the top result is my cms profile with my qualifications listed.

It's worth remembering that these qualifications require a log of continued experience, not just the qualification itself. If the candidate maintains a logbook on 'tahdah' then this is easily shared.

"3.6 Continue to gain and record experience and any relevant additional training All Mountain Training award schemes are based on the current and relevant experience of the individual award holder."

Nobody professional is going to tell you to fck off. 

This doesn't just apply to outdoor qualifications but just about anything, especially if it involves a registration e.g. Doctor, Dentist, Nurse, Paramedic whatever.

You might catch them off guard and they might be slightly confused depending on the situation but the answer should be along the lines of " Er....ok sure here you go" 

If it's not then it should set some alarm bells ringing!

I'm interested in what prompted your post. I wasn't aware that instructors with bogus qualifications is a particularly widespread/serious problem. 

Are you looking to engage an instructor/guide for your own use? As an experienced climber with some 20 years experience, you must be aware of all the other ways of getting an idea of who an instructor is: business websites, online profiles, word of mouth, gut feeling from chatting to them, etc.

If you were going to employ someone to guide you in a dangerous activity which could result in death or serious injury, you should feel entitled to request a copy of their certificate, insurance, and up-to-date first aid training . There is nothing rude about making sure you are covered. 

Unless they've hidden themselves, searching on https://mt.tahdah.me/public/validation should work. 

I didn't mean this literally, probably should have made this clear.  I meant more figuratively.

Possibly not bogus, maybe more deception by statements such as "SPA trained" or "AGMA trained" without having actually completed/achieved certification.

No.  If you're really interested in my specific initial motivations for the post you'll have to direct message me as I can't express them in a public forum.

Thanks to those that responded 

I would have thought it a reasonable topic for conversation on climbing website, so not sure why my OP garnered various dislikes.  Maybe there are more bogus "guides" than people think

I wouldn't say SPA trained is misleading. It means you have done the training course but not yet assessed. It means they are not qualified to run sessions but many would use them as a second instructor. 

https://mt.tahdah.me/public/validation/2

I know! So did I! My point was if they get arsey about you wanting to see evidence of their qualifications, run for the hills (with another instructor ;p)

To a layman, 'spa trained' means spa qualified. It's not really the norm outside of climbing to be trained and assessed at different points with a consolidation period in between. 

I don't agree, for what it's worth. I think a significant number of people would immediately wonder why the word "trained" was being used, as opposed to "qualified".

Yes, I guess that's fair enough (well, more than guess - it is fair enough).  However, I have encountered at least one context where this has not really been presented in this way, and I'm fairly certain that any training hasn't included taking the course, or any real training at all.  Must admit I'm not really fussed about the SPA stuff (which I just gave as an example) but some of the more significant international recognised qualifications.

Whats up, is dangerous Dave back?

That's a list of members of one of the French mountain guide syndicates. It doesn't cover all guides who can legally work in France. You can check that information here:

 https://eapspublic.sports.gouv.fr/CarteProRecherche/RechercherEducateurCart...

There are no internationally recognised mountain guiding qualifications. Recognition is carried out on a national level by the government ministry deemed relevant. Most countries don't actually bother.

Thats not correct.
 

https://ifmga.info/%3Cnolink%3E/about-ifmga

https://www.theuiaa.org/documents/safety/MQL-2016_Presentation-General_fina...

The IFMGA is a professional association, nothing more. Go to their website and you'll see under 'Aims':

"Represent the interests of the mountain guiding profession to governments"

However, it's up to each national government to decide how to regulate the mountain guide profession, if at all. They may decide to use an IFMGA-recognised qualification as a requirement, or not. There are usually other requirements, such as being up-to-date with some form of CPD training, or not having a criminal record. I don't think any government automatically gives IFMGA guides the right to work within their borders.

In regulated countries in Europe, mountain guides have to apply to each national government to obtain authorisation to work.

I see your point, however right to work isn’t the same thing as being qualified though.

A qualification doesn't mean much in itself. For example, I have no idea how credible these 'qualifications' are:

https://polartourismguides.com/get-qualified/ptga-qualifications 

With regard to mountaineering qualifications the UIAA document I linked to above gives all the explanation needed. 
 

Also on the IFMGA link the other aims listed are;

To regulate the mountain guide profession on a global scale.

To support standardised laws and regulations with regard to the mountain guide profession.

Determine mandatory international training standards.

To implement reciprocal acceptance of IFMGA qualification.

I’m sure there are many worthless qualifications out there, but to say there are no standardised internationally recognised mountaineering/climbing/walking qualifications is false. 
 

Anyway I’m off to tidy the house before the wife gets home for Christmas

Strangely this doesn't show me when I search for my surname or combo or candidate ref number and I hold 4 MT quals and a member of the MTA..

As you pointed out, one of the aims of the IFMGA is:

"To support standardised laws and regulations with regard to the mountain guide profession."

So basically the IFMGA is a professional organisation which lobbbies governments to adopt its standards. Is that really the same thing as an 'internationally recognised qualification"? I guess we're into semantics (yawn)!!

Good luck with that, I'm off to the supermarket

Check your privacy settings on your account, you might have your profile disabled.

Yep, IFMGA quals are only recognised in IFMGA countries, lower qualifications are worthless effectively.

They're not even recognised by the governments of most "IFMGA countries", including the UK, USA and most of Europe! 

I wouldn't say lower qualifications are 'worthless'. Some attest to a certain level of training, some are even compulsory on a national level.

Similarly, IFMGA certification attests to a certain level of training. Its standards are used as a benchmark by a very small number of Alpine countries. Claiming it is 'internationally recognised' is misleading. Very few countries even bother to recognise guiding qualifications. This includes most 'IFMGA countries'.

They're not lower qualifications, they're different qualifications. 

I was once told guides teach people to be guided in the UK and abroad. Instructors teach to be independent in a UK setting. Both can do both with different emphasises on what is taught and in what capacity. Similar but different and the same, kind of. 

They are lower in price though  

What on earth are you writing about? Lower qualifications are worthless in the context of international recognition.

You're comparing two different qualifications that are designed for two different things and saying one is lower than the other. 

IFMGA guides are internationally recognised because they work internationally, those with the UK based MI qualifications don't work internationally hence why they're not recognised internationally. 

You're at it. 

Hmm i'd say its very flaky. Iv just tried to find some very busy and well established MIAs on there and they werent on the lists it returned to me.