UKC

Something strange has happened!

My wife has just had the vaccine, she’s a teaching assistant and they were all informed yesterday that they were all getting vaccines. We were both in mixed minds over this, it’s great she’s had it but frustrating that we’re still waiting for my very vulnerable parents to have it.

Today they have been told there was a mistake and they shouldn’t have had them!

I suspect what’s happened is the government asked PHE about working out the feasibility of vaccinating all teaching staff with a view to reopening schools, maybe PHE didn’t understand what was wanted and they went ahead with the vaccines.

Anybody else in the teaching profession been asked to go for one? 

Sounds as well organised as everything else at the moment.

Yeah that’s what I thought. The government probably did a U turn before they’d announced what they were doing!

U turn? Feels like we're trapped in a shitty U bend.

My Mrs is forced to work at her Special school, no mention of any vaccinations offered yet.
Several pupils testing positive so far this month.

I would like mine! No such luck here. Atleast this parents evening is via webcam. I've seen some lovely sofas and Kitchens. 

I hope Mrs WM gets the second dose too!

I daren’t tell my mum Mrs WM has had it. She’s been isolating for nearly a year!

Thats the worry now, will she still get the second dose! 

If schools are going to go back  then teachers ought to be vaccinated 

But the real problem with school transmission is the kids taking the infection home to their close family "bubbles'.

What was that crazy statement the other day? "Schools are safe. It's only when pupils are teachers are there that it becomes unsafe:...

I guess we should be grateful that at least they have grasped the latter concept...

Count your lucky stars you are not in Madrid or France where they have pushed vaccine programme back due to supply issues. 

My wife knows of special needs school in both Warrington and Chorley where staff have had it. 

I’ve been put on a list for ‘spare vaccines because of no shows’ that would get thrown away so may as well give them to someone.’  But reckon I will be waaaay low down on the list. 

I know that my employer, a Council has been drawing up lists of staff who it thinks should be prioritied. With the expectation that they will be offered some capacity to do it. Mainly staff that have lots of contact with the public, which will I guess include school staff that are local authority employees.

My step-daughter is booked if for Saturday because my wife’s employer (NHS) is giving staff the opportunity to vaccinate vulnerable family members.

I’m doing my first session on Sunday helping to organise people at our local vaccine centre.

Why? The teachers are not that high on the list of jobs with statistically large exposure to corona. They should be vaccinated after bus drivers, warehouse workers, slaughterhouse employees, food distribution workers, etc.

If school staff can't work, parents must stay at home to look after the kids, so the economy grinds to a halt. No teachers, no child care.

Also, the rate of infection for teachers was up to 3 times higher than the national average, but of course schools are COVID safe.

Andy F

All the professions you listed can manage to maintain social distance, school teachers and teaching assistants cannot.

Every day they are exposed to circa 30 households.

If the schoolkids infect the Bus Drivers, then how are they going to get to school. ?

If the schoolkids pass Covid to each other, both within their "bubble" and to other "bubbles" (on the bus or in class), then they in turn pass it on to their parents when they get home.

If their parents are in hospital or the cemetery, then do we have enough Foster Homes for the schoolkids ?

Restarting schools is not in isolation, it's part of society. Until infection rates are really well down, restarting schools could be by far the worst action to take.

Staff at the special school in the area I work in have been vaccinated, but not other teaching staff. Can’t say I’d want to be a teacher at the moment. 

I don’t agree, with the possible exception of bus drivers. Social distancing is much easier in those other occupations than it is for teachers. I’d include nursery staff as well - I’ve dealt with some seriously ill nursery teachers recently. The new variant seems to be affecting young children much more, and, anecdotally making people sicker. 

Schools are open already Fred...to many, many children of ‘key’ workers.🤔

"Key" being the operative term. How many really are ??

Here's a BBC Reality Check on that very subject:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55841748

A healthy 27 year old in my partners family was vaccinated recently. We asked how come? The answer was "Council privilege". He works in admin, mainly from home, in the social services dept. No frontline interaction at all.

I have no idea how council's are prioritising their employees but I'm sure they'll get round to us all eventually. 

I teach in a special school in Liverpool. Here all special school staff who work with pupils who cannot socially distance are being vaccinated. I had my first dose yesterday morning. Our pupils do not socially distance, they spit and bite, we have to be in very close contact for personal care, physical interventions and general interaction.
As soon as we heard that we were to be vaccinated, the whole atmosphere at school changed and many people who had previously been anxious and stressed coming in to work (we have been open continuously throughout the pandemic and even opened additionally through the Easter holidays to provide care for vulnerable pupils) were happier and visibly relaxed, knowing that a high degree of protection was on its way. 

https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-coronavirus-schools-teacher-covid-rates-...

Andy F

That might well be true, but it doesn't mean that they're any worse than other Industry Sectors such as the ones highlighted by HansStuttgart. 

From your link

Male secondary school teachers saw about two-and-a-half times as many deaths as men of the same age from an equivalent professional background

Looking at other occupations, female nurses were 50% more likely to die than the general female working-age population, and male nurses were more than twice as likely to die as other working-age men.

When you add in that schools were only fully open for 15 weeks out of the 9 months the data was collected over. I didn't find the link too reassuring. 

The important thing is to compare against other professions, or people who go out to work. False comparisons against the general population, including children, the elderly etc, are not helpful. Of course teachers are more likely to suffer COVID than people who stay at home or have vastly reduced risk. The teaching unions did not help their cause by making comparisons against the ‘general population’, whatever that is, it was never clearly explained from what I read. I’m a passionate union member, but transparency is important and their stats were crap and near meaningless, which just causes more arguments. And note, I am not arguing against vaccinating teachers (see my previous post), I just wish the stats used were better and more honest. 

I'm not saying that Teachers aren't at risk, just that there are other occupations at equal risk or higher and if you vaccinate Teachers, then why shouldn't workers in those occupations demand to be vaccinated?
For example, Office Workers:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55843506

Why can't they social distance and/or take other measures to reduce transmission?
Obviously they can't totally isolate themselves, but do they for example teach from behind a screen?

But your previous link suggested that, when schools are open, nurses were at a lower risk than teachers? Your latest link suggests that office outbreaks are as a result of firms not following covid guidance and insisting staff work can't work form home.

However, the Health and Safety Executive received nearly 4,000 Covid-related complaints about workplaces in January.

Prof Phil Taylor, who has spent years researching call centre and office work, says offices provide the perfect environment for Covid to spread.

"They have high occupational densities with little social distancing and are often sealed, with air con just recirculating pathogens like Covid," said Prof Taylor, from the University of Strathclyde.

"Hot-desking is commonplace and cleansing is hit and miss. It's a toxic combination."

So I agree, I wouldn't expect staff to work under those conditions without being vaccinated.

Possibly, a reasonable idea, but it would probably be quicker to vaccinate 500,000 teachers than install a similar number of perspex screens, before schools reopen fully.

Teaching is interactive. Teaching, particularly weaker students, involves being close to them. Practical subjects involve walking round, supporting, observing, directing.

Add into that a secondary teacher may see 5 classes a day, each with 30 pupils. Do the maths. Hence the high COVID risk for teachers.

Andy F

Mrs S is a lecturer at college and S junior is in year 11. Obviously they are both working from home now, but before the latest lockdown there were no screens and face masks were only compulsory in the corridors. 30+ kids in a class, no masks. YES school staff should be vaccinated before schools reopen.

If it wasn't you could ignore the perspex screen idea and just put  TV at the front of the classroom which would allow teachers to continue working from home

Im sure they can for Uni’s and possibly for older kids at school but for my wife, in a school of primary age kids you just can’t. I’ve asked her several times about it, not understanding why not myself, but kids of that age have loads of issues, not just academic ones, which requires a hands on approach. 
At the moment they are pretty much baby sitters for anyone who classes themselves as essential workers. Many are far from that.

I work in a factory with 500 people and even though I work in a office and therefore relatively safe, there will be people such as Team Leaders that will invariably meet/interact with a similar number that you mention. 
The site rule is 100% wearing of face coverings for all staff and with the addition of a FFP2 mask and face shield for staff that work in areas that can't so readily social distance.
Again, I'm not saying that Teachers shouldn't be vaccinated, just that if they are, then so should other occupations.

Whilst this *might* work for a small group of A level students without any additional needs for anything other than that I'm not sure it is a workable solution. For example teaching a class of 30 four and five year olds, some of whom have come to school unable to use the toilet unaided or in nappies (nothing to do with additional needs, just the reality of teaching that age group) the idea is laughable. 

All this, and by this I am including education unions, news articles and public opinion, focus on teacher safety and school closures is missing the point entirely.

1. Schools have not been closed at any point throughout this entire period, they have remained open, for example at the moment for children of critical workers and vulnerable children. 

2. Reducing school intake is not about protecting teachers, it is about reducing community transmission.

3. Vaccinating teachers is not about keeping teachers safe, it is about keeping schools open through reducing cases amongst staff.

Teachers are exposed to more risk than someone who can do their job from home. But it's not a competition, teachers face a risk, as do many many people going out to work, some essential and unavoidable some less so. That's a fact of life about living through this pamdemic.

Reducing community transmission and vaccination are key aspects to getting out the other side of this pandemic - reducing school intake and vaccinating all (including teachers) is part of that.

Keeping schools fully open is a key aspect of the recovery both economically (for parents, and mentally, for parents and children) and vaccinating teachers and testing (children and teachers) is part of that.

Nobody should be working in offices and call centres right now though.

It's trivially easy to set up call centre staff for home working - I have a significant amount of customer contact in my current role, the bank just couriered me a standard workstation PC with VPN software and a remote control app for my desk phone. 

I log into the phone, and every time I dial a number it calls my mobile first, and when I answer connects to the customer. All the calls are logged and monitored as before.

I haven't had to go into the office since April, and my employer has gone from having to manage five floors of a large building for the project, to a skeleton IT staff and a floor full of phones.

We should have mandated that these sorts of roles are remote working only, for the duration of the pandemic.

I imagine most offices that have gone almost fully remote working will never go back to previous practices.

I know that my employer was so impressed with how things were going, they told me after lockdown one that I'd be staying remote till the end of the project (which is going to be about June this year) because they saw no reason to bring people back in regardless of how the pandemic and the government restrictions played out.

A little bit of disruption at the start to set it up, and then no issues with illness spreading around the building, staff off quarantined, etc.

It's a no brainer from a business perspective, as well as public health IMO.

Isn't that skewed because teachers have largely been remote and to get the back they will be in person, so a higher risk.

As a teacher I'd vaccinate teachers over 55 but for people like me, 40s, no other co-morbidities I'd be happy to wait.

I think we should do that, however we should also just get vaccinated. If your number comes up get it. That's how we protect people.

But we need kids in schools for the economy. I've been remote for two weeks with a 5 year old kid at home. My wife's a medical fellow and we have a nanny for the twins (that's cheaper than twins in daycare plus safer with covid). It's impossible to work properly with kids at home. I think we'll stay as largely work from home for the next year or so but we need kids out the house.

Tbh the best thing we can do for teachers is reduce class sizes. 

Though I'm amazed that uk teachers have been in schools with unmasked kids. That's madness, absolute criminal stupidity.

The anger and demands from the teacher unions is far from just about a vaccine.

And involves a lot of talking, which is known to generate respiratory particles.

I doubt any of the other occupations mentioned involve as much talking (barring call centres, which, as pointed out, should be WFH).

All buses near me were fitted with polycarbonate security screens for the driver compartment, way before covid was heard of, for security reasons. So bus drivers are pretty well protected here.

We haven't been permitted to wear masks while teaching and the children don't wear masks except in the corridors, and some of them don't comply with that either. 

If you want the children babysitting so parents can work something has to change.  

I'm aware this will probably get me some dislikes but I find it really obnoxious when teachers in their 30s and 40s say they want a vaccine before someone in their 60s, never mind someone in their late 70s.  My brother and his wife are both teachers in London their late 30s and have taught in-person throughout, my mum is 68 with asthma. Her health is by far our biggest concern in this pandemic on a personal level. If vaccinations were re-prioritised away from people like her after the first few groups and towards people like them, I would be very upset and I think they all would too.

I have sympathy for teachers in their 50s and 60s and I'd support them (only them) getting vaccinated early if it was based on evidence of increased risks vs other worker groups and could be arranged as quickly as possible to avoid significant impact on the wider programme (eg the idea of doing everyone in half term week.) Otherwise, doing younger people anywhere outside of health and social care before we have vaccinated all nine vulnerable groups is anathema to me.

I thought the suggestion was after the 70+'s had been vaccinated? My Auntie is 91, had carer visiting her twice a day, for a variety of reasons we accept she isn't going to get her jab until the end of next week. We are concerned, and would rather it not be the case, but accept that locally people twenty years younger are getting vaccinated before her. 

My brother and his wife are both teachers in London their late 30s and have taught in-person throughout, my mum is 68 with asthma. Her health is by far our biggest concern in this pandemic on a personal level. If vaccinations were re-prioritised away from people like her after the first few groups and towards people like them, I would be very upset and I think they all would too.

We are lucky and don't have to go into school but if this had been a few years earlier I would have struggled to accept that Mrs J would be expected to work in a school without being vaccinated, while my mum (76) has had one, after two FPN for breaching covid regulations. More generally,  if we look a month or so into the future, hopefully deaths will be at a far lower rate and due to the vaccination of older people unlikely (fingers crossed) to rise significantly. Pressure on the health service will still be a concern. Many people on the 60-70 age group will be able to effectively self isolate if they want to, by them time we might be looking at vaccinating most teachers delaying their appointment by one day. Will the probability of a 40 year old teacher ending up in ICU be higher than a 65 year old who is able to self isolate, due to significantly higher infection rates?

As a "punter" it seems difficult to get reliable information. In one of Factorx's liknks I was surprised to see that before Christmas the number of outbreaks in schools was in line with those in care homes and significantly more than in hospitals (there are far fewer hospitals so not sure this is significant) It will be interesting to see where/if a line is drawn 40+, 50+ or not at all. I think as we learn more there is nothing wrong with adjusting these guidelines. Does vaccination reduce the chances of you transmitting the virus is a big one. This thread is about teachers but there are others in similar circumstances. I agree with the policy so far, but think that moving forward the might be some merit in prioritising some groups over others rather than just doing it by age. More "risky" occupations, BAME, people living in deprived area being possibilities.

Teachers can't wear masks and the state has said getting kids back in school is a top priority. They have clear reasons to be near the top of the list.

If a company can't carry out functions safely they are in breach of H&S legislation and should stop and work out a different safe method (not that the HSE have done much more than barely lift a finger recently). 

If your employer 'made' you work unproteced in a situation where you might catch covid and risk you and your household, would you be happy? I think teachers are some of the biggest unsung heros around right now keeping education going for keyworkers and the most vulnerable.  I'd understand those with underlying health conditions being forgiven any duties by a sensible head.

Last spring my uni calculated a 'covid age' using a formula based on risk factors and banned staff from face to face teaching above a certain level.

So do you think that schools should currently be open for, the children, of all parents that fit the above criteria, not just key workers children? 

Has a single teacher actually said that?  

Your mother is both 65+ and with an underlying condition. 

There is no reason to think teachers would be priority over either of those groups.  I think you are over reacting.  Understandable.  

People are asking that older teachers are prioritised over people working at home after the most vulnerable groups.  

I'd want to see bus drivers and police etc also priority over people working at home.  

I am really struggling to justify why I (50) should be be vaccinated before any key worker. If I was prepared to go into school as a result would be one reason. The only other is if I was ill/injured and had to risk going to hospital.

I have no idea why teachers can't wear masks.  

As I've said a few times previously teachers and pupils do so in other countries.  

Here I keep seeing staff with visors.  Pointless wearing a visor without a mask. 

I don't intend to go back to school until 3 weeks after I've had both doses. I've lost all trust in the people who are supposed to keep me safe at work, and I put self preservation above hero status. 

Having seen what long Covid does I'm not willing to risk it.  

You can wear a mask as can the kids, you don't have to (and nor do the kids) in classrooms. Doing so causes practical difficulties at times, but I've used a mask to teach since we went back in September for at least some of the time. Trying to keep rooms well ventilated is a bigger issue as the it got colder.

BTW, don't forget teachers taught straight through the November lockdown. I really didn't notice it at all because I carried on going to work just like before - I guess the roads were slightly quieter.

We've had dozens of cases of covid at the secondary school where I work through the autumn, all the students were out at some point I think to self isolate, so the feeling that there were likely infections around you was always there. I felt relatively fatalistic about it, thinking I was likely to get it sooner or later and just focusing on the stats that I was unlikely to end up in hospital if I did. But I clearly remember thinking as a man in my late 40s, the odds for lots of my younger colleagues were a lot better! I have thought about the legal and financial situation of my partner and children if I die, which (probably just the result of slightly mindless optimism!) I've not really done before - beyond the quick "I really don't want to €¥¢π this next bit up" when climbing or ski touring. Definitely never thought like that in terms of doing a job previously.

Well said. My business is in manufacturing. We have been open all the way through.  Even had critical must stay open instructions from USA. 
 

if you want food, power etc then there is a wider infrastructure to be maintained.

There are plenty of occupations that are probably of equal/greater priority  to be vaccinated than teachers  

People  need to open their eyes a bit. 

Rubbish, people can't go back to work until teachers go back. You can't have teachers working unmasked around unmasked kids and not expect community spread.

Here's an idea, stick to manufacturing.. 

What's the reason why teachers can't wear masks at all times except eating, etc? 

Food , power and water are far far more important. 
 

vaccine and PPE manufacturing ?

Get of your high horse and widen your view. 

I don't get why masks are not compulsory. We've had a compulsory mask policy since September and no community spread. We're optional in person, attendance is typically about 80-90%. We know masks massively reduce transmission, we're even pushing multiple masks here. The science is now very solid with the uncertainty removed.

We lunch in small groups, 6-8 kids and a staff member in classrooms. That's the only time we are not in masks.

I really don't think it's been a massive issue teaching in masks. We deal with lots of kids with learning issues, deaf kids etc but have found ways around it. We tried see through masks and they just fogged up. But we still managed and the main thing is being in person. Remote learning isn't effective at getting parents back to work or kids learning. We're going to have some kids come back this fall who have basically missed a year of school. It's going to take a good 1-2 years to get kids back on track.

I'm 41 so have had no issues teaching in person, but I feel safe with our schools policies. I coach the swim team with a 70 year old, she's fit but she's much higher risk. If I was over 60 I don't think I'd have taught through the pandemic.

tbh the bitching over who gets vaccinating is full stop shit. No order is great. People need to pull their pants up and get on with it. Those creating the lists are doing their best, making informed choices and have the expertise. This is just being used as another opportunity to gripe at teachers, the world's easiest job that somehow nobody wants to do.. but if they did they'd do it better than anyone..

Masks are about stopping you from spreading it. You need the kids in masks for your protection.

I've no issues with those getting vaccinated. You're the one saying teachers shouldn't so you widen your view. How can meat packers go to work if their 5 year old kid is still at home? Widen your view.

And for many jobs social distancing is very possible. With teaching it's hard, especially in a poor country like the UK with large class sizes due to chronic underfunding of public services.. yet no doubt you voted for parties who underfunded, then complain at those impacts.

That's not what is bring said. That's fine. Front line workers.

Neilh and Hans is pushing teachers back behind those groups but you don't seem to think that's a problem.

I think he is saying the same as me in that are other sectors with equal/greater exposure to the virus and that if you vaccinate teachers as a priority, then why not them?
There does seem to be a bit of a superiority thing going on with teachers where they somehow think that they're unique in what they're doing with regards to working during the pandemic, etc.  

You do not seem to think there is a problem with no power,  water or food. 

How about sewerage plants. Do you want your “ shit “ sorted. 

nuclear power plant ?

Heaven forbid even truck drivers are critical.

What about those in marine and sea workers. Have you read up on the difficulties there?

The list is endless and teachers are part of that  .

100 % spot on. Annoys the hell out of me. It’s the arrogance that really bugs me. 

Spot on! Boris needs to make it compulsory for all kids to wear mask at all time whilst inside school buildings. At least then teachers will have some protection to reduce their risk, same as the rest of us not working from home

Maybe teachers/schools need to look at how other sectors have adapted their working practices to try and reduce the risk of transmission?
For example:
Longer school days so that there are less people on the premises at any one time.
Weekend working.
Shorter holidays.
Screens between teachers and pupils. 

Not at all. We're in so people can work and kids learn better. If the parents need to be vaccinated to work, and we can't socially distance why shouldn't parents.

I can't be responsible for what you feel.. 

Good ideas. Who pays? 

Millenials think money grows on trees..

The average length a teacher stays in the job is 5 years. We've a chronic shortage of teachers. 

The pay isn't good enough to get people in as it is.

I teach because it fits around my life.

If I was working all summer for the same salary I'd quit. I actually do teach through the summers but I get paid extra and work less hours.

If you're willing to pay teachers more that's fine. I teach an extra class this year so get paid more.

Why don't you teach? It's really easy. It's so easy we can just deal with less holidays.

By the way my day I am school at 7:45.

I teach 3 90 minute classes, no class off, 15 min breaks between and 45 minutes at lunch where I eat with kids. At 1:45 I coach the swim team for two hours - kids need sports (2 x 1 hr blocks). I then go and do some work and get home about 5. I then work 8 until late grading and prepping for the next day. There really isn't slack in the system.

Did we hurt your feelings.. 

...and other people work so that you can continue to live in the lifestyle that you've got accustomed to.
As I've repeatedly said, I've no objections to teachers getting vaccinated, but if they do, then so should every other worker that is similarly exposed to the virus.

You're going to have to explain point 1.

How do other people working pay for my life style I've got accustomed to.. I'm an independent school teacher. I know my worth, PhD, qualified coach, ran internationally. I teach because I worked hard to have that life i can enjoy. I want my summers off. When it's February and I'm dealing with parents and lesson plans those summers off keep you going.

As said jump in and teach. We're overpaid with all this time off. It's easy. So do it? You're as bad as Neilh refusing to actually step in and teach yet want to criticize the profession and anyone who argues back is 'superior'..

And yes 'similarly exposed'. That's exactly what is happening.

You and neilh, neither qualified in public health are arguing what that means. As said let the governments pick the order. So far I think it's pretty good. In fact credit to the UK their vaccinations are going pretty well.

We've just vaccinated gitmo prisoners. I've no issues with that. Prisons should come first. I suspect marine workers will be high on the list too. I'm not going to knock other people's professions like you and neil are doing.

They work to provide you with electric, water, food and all of the other items that you use on a daily basis and without those your lifestyle would be massively effected.
Parents need teachers to work so that they in turn can work. Teachers and everyone else needs those people to work so that the country carries on running.
If teachers need vaccinating, then so do the other workers who are equally important and similarly exposed to the virus.
What is surprising/shocking is that teachers seem to be in many cases against the whole concept of changing their working practises to limit transmission - not wearing masks whilst in the classroom being a typical example.
I personally can't see why pupils of a certain age aren't required to wear masks in the classroom either, but that's probably a separate issue...

None of these ideas are in the control of a teacher.  Maybe we wouldn't be having these conversations if they were.  

Given that these basic common sense ideas (along with others such as using empty village halls etc) to social distance haven't been implemented by the majority of schools, and that the majority of schools can't even manage to get the kids washing their hands, I have been expected to teach children who refuse to wear masks even in the corridors when they are crammed in, expected to teach in a room without opening windows, expected to continue teaching a child who has vomited during my lesson etc etc, I'm done. Someone else can be a hero. 

As for why no masks, feel free to ask Boris and his magical schools are safe policy.  Presumably the same reason he was shaking hands with people.  Pretend the problem doesn't exist and it will go away.  

Please identify one spot where I said I agree with no power, water or food. I said front line workers should be vaccinated. I suspect you won't, because I didn't.

I'd argue that in some professions it is easier to socially distance that in others. Oil workers on rigs etc its hard, workers at sea on a ship, it's hard and I've done it, sewage plant workers, probably easier but I've not worked in a sewage plant. 

That's why we have the governments and public health workers make the list of those eligible. Stop putting words in peoples mouths and I'm worry you think I'm being arrogant or superior for believing that front line workers should be vaccinated. I've said as a 41 year old health in person teacher, I'm happy to wait.

So? How am I responsible for what the Labour Party say? I'm sorry you've now lost me.

You've said others work so I can live my life I'm accustomed to, now this. Can you please explain both points?

We have been specifically told not to wear masks in classrooms.   

Did you not see the information I posted? 

Unless the children are actually made to wear masks it doesn't help.  

how old's your mam?

"If teachers need vaccinating, then so do the other workers who are equally important and similarly exposed to the virus."

How have I disagreed with this premise all along. You are arguing with yourself now and trying to say things I haven't said. 

"What is surprising/shocking is that teachers seem to be in many cases against the whole concept of changing their working practises to limit transmission"

How? As a teacher this has been brutal. Masks, virtual classrooms, socially distanced kids, redesigning labs, new schedules, no lunch breaks. Again you seem to be arguing from a point of ignorance? Have you been in a school during this time?

500,000 teachers in the UK we could in theory vaccinate all of them within 2-3 days at our current vaccination rate.

Vulnerable, NHS frontline staff, teachers, police, fire, general public. Would be my order.

"They work to provide you with electric, water, food and all of the other items that you use on a daily basis and without those your lifestyle would be massively effected."

This is what society is. We need long haulers, we need medics, we need teachers to teach kids, we need mechanics, we need road workers. Without any sector of society our lifestyle is massively affected.

Are you OK? This is getting so stupid now. I can't see how I have argued that any sector of society is dispensable? You and NeilH have been attacking the arrogance of superiority of teachers and their inability to adapt (which is nonsense). Nobody else is attacking other professions.

Police and Fire before teachers. That's the system here and I do agree with it.

The way all schools in the UK work has changed significantly since March - and like I said, loads of teachers are wearing masks. I'm not really sure where you are getting your ideas from.

Oh and its the Government who is saying masks use should be avoided: "Face coverings can have a negative impact on learning and teaching and so their use in the classroom should be avoided." https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-in-education/face... I suspect heads who have no problem with staff using them such as where I work have listened to the unions when they have suggested their use.

I believe all NHS and social care workers have been vaccinated.

71

Would it have been quicker to vaccinate 500,000 shop workers than install a similar number of perspex screens ??

Teachers don't have to restock shelves.

Why ever not ?

For that matter, why can't pupils/students wear them as well ?

All the above are expected to wear masks on public transport, in shops, and so forth. So why not ?

When you get a sensible answer to that, do let me know.  Good luck.  

Those screens were put up in March/April even with hindsight it would have taken 12 months to vaccinate them. Why were so few put up in schools before September? 

Not sure what your point is? If it is about mixing with customers that can be solved quite easily all be it with some disruption. As I have said up thread my belief is that key workers not just teachers should be prioritised. 

The simple fact is that the average age of the people in ICU is 60

getting the load down in critical care is the highest priority at the moment

any policies that slow that down are not going to help

No, but the shelf stackers kids need to be in school. I'd have thought it's easier for shop workers to socially distance but that's for governments to work out. Public school teachers will be with 25 kids in enclosed spaces. But this is all whataboutism bollox. How do you rank funeral directors above some other group. There's no perfect way. 

Tbh it's more about vaccine supply. When can we get x group in? How many in that group? 

I asked about splitting our school so we vaccinate at risk teachers first but the reality is the whole school will be invited to a vaccine site on a Friday, so schools don't have to close the next day. If they have x hundred free spaces they'll invite other groups to fit the supply and so on.

My wife's hospital has had real trouble staffing during the vaccinations, well over 50% needed a day off after the second vaccination (aren't allowed in with a fever). For 24-36 hrs the second vaccine trashed her.

Re teachers not adapting during this. That's laughable. To suggest any group in society has not had to and been willing to adapt is pretty laughable.

Hahahaha...You don’t post on the BBC under a different pseudonym do you? It’s just that I read the same ill-informed twaddle there as well.

The first three points are to do with contracts, unions and school funding. You would probably need to introduce some kind of emergency powers to make them work.

The fourth point...well, maybe in secondary school but not in a primary school particularly with younger children.

I’m a 55 year old primary school teacher btw. I’m looking forward to getting back to proper teaching rather than remote learning.

Haha I was guessing he was a Daily mail commenter!

And nobody said they were..

Although I'd still like to know how you think we have taught through a pandemic resisting any changes? We plan to teach every lesson on line and in person, labs re-designed for social distancing, trays of clean and to be washed tools. 

I've literally hundreds of pages of lesson plans I've written this year. I've cleaned more desks this year than I have in my whole career.

I suspect every career is radically different right now. 

Haven't teachers changed their working practices considerably, by providing in person lesson to vulnerable and key worker children and additionally, on line lessons for the rest?

He wants teachers to agree to work weekends, holidays and longer hours. Though no doubt won't pay for the extra childcare costs on top.

I suspect factorxxx hasn't any young kids.

Most teachers I know here also have other jobs, bar tender, summer schools, camp counselors, guiding etc. I would be working on field trips in Bermuda, Iceland or possibly Yellowstone.

I'd be very surprised if many teachers had the flexibility in their finances, nor most professional level jobs, to just work extra hours outside the house. I've a lot of flexibility with my working practices but can't work more hours

I don't know what world FactorXXX lives in where you can just find affordable help to make working longer hours work.

As I said, you can find them on the BBC as well.🤔

I can’t comment about other job sectors or people with other contracts but I’m wondering if you can advise us exactly how you propose to make the entire teaching profession do everything that you have mentioned?

Asking for a friend...🙂

From some of your previous posts, you seem to have had more flexibility to "change working practice" Not sure if that is down to being in the US or in the private sector. Here the emphasis in for Heads in September was very much back to normal (well actually there at the time there was a lot of talk about kids catching up). So thirty six, sixteen year olds in a 8m x 8m classroom, all 2m apart, for an hour??

I found it annoying that the news item on the risk of death to teachers quoted statistics from March to December

To my mind teachers were probably at less risk than the occupations you mention from March to September when schools were closed. The relevant figures would be from September to December

Ah. Thank you for that. I read about this data collection and I’m glad that someone has brought it up because it also troubled me.

It's both. The US has little federal involvement in education, and even at the state level it's driven on a district level which is typically 1-2 high schools and their feeder schools, outside of the cities. I think that means we do adapt quicker. Obviously as an independent school we can adapt even quicker, especially in terms of releasing funds. Here property taxes pay for schools so big investments often go to the public for votes, slowing responses. We made all our classrooms bigger and updated our ventilation systems over the summer whereas the public school system in our city is still arguing about how to pay for the updated systems. It's why we have such disparity in the level of education between towns because those towns with more expensive housing generates a greater tax revenue so has better schools with more money to spend.

so there's pros and cons to our system, as always it's better for the more well off communities. Our bad schools are horrific.

No, they teach our children and give parents a chance to work and not worry about child care. What's wrong with you?

From the link that Factorx used

Male secondary school teachers saw about two-and-a-half times as many deaths as men of the same age from an equivalent professional background

When, as you say, this is combined with the fact that schools were only fully open for roughly a quarter of the time the data was collected over, does that mean they are about 10 times as likely to die when they are open? If this is also true for other key workers it would seem reasonable that they are prioritised for vaccination.

Also from the link 

The data showed there were more than 500 outbreaks, or suspected outbreaks, in offices in the second half of 2020 - more than in supermarkets, construction sites, warehouses, restaurants and cafes combined.

From the graph on the other link they provided it looked like,  during the last three weeks of the Autumn term, there were about 200 outbreaks per week in schools.

Re all health workers being vaccinated already..

N ot necessarily. 

I booked my appointment as soon as I could just before Christmas. It happened yesterday. 

There are still large numbers being vaccinated locally.

Well surely you need to vaccinate both teachers and children to stop the spread? 

Little point vaccinating a 20-40 year old teacher whilst kids go home to their parents and grandparents. 

Probably best to keep schools closed whilst a good amount of older people are vaccinated (which appears to be the plan).

Once the risk of children killing their relatives is reduced significantly enough to go back then if 30 year-old teachers are at higher risk than 50 year olds then then fine, vaccinate them first. 

Some interesting data fro JCVI

Vaccinating 20 x care home residents saves 1 life. 

Vaccinating 160 x 70 Yr olds saves 1 life

Vaccinating 1,000 x 60 Yr olds saves 1 life

Vaccinating 50,000 x teachers saves 1 life

From this data, I can see why there is not a push to vaccinate teachers. 

I think that calculation is somewhat dubious and even if correct does not cover the whole picture. 

People want schools open. This can't happen if vast numbers of staff are off sick or isolating.  

Might it be that you are not getting the full story. The vast majority of people operating my local vaccine centre are Council staff, either redeployed or volunteering. I know that if there are any spare vaccines at the end of the day*, those working or volunteering at the centre are offered them. 

* Typically very, very small numbers.

They aren't vaccinating kids anytime soon. Israel has started so I think possibly summer. But the trials have only just started. 

If the adults are vaccinated it's not too important if the kids are, obviously it's preferable if everyone is.

Kids shouldn't be seeing grand parents, my kids haven't seen their grand parents since the summer. Here if a kid lives with grand parents they stay remote. We have to get schools open asap. Admissions to our local kids psychiatric ward have tripled during the pandemic. We need to get sports going too.

We're also vaccinating millions, mistakes happen. In NJ they are using mass vaccination sites and basically vaccinate anyone if they signed up. People are jumping the queue. It's not great but they've vaccinated far more than we have in MA because we're doing it very by the rules.

People in this country have had enough of experts. Remember where that got us? 

I thought the vaccines were more effective than that? So far, 52 secondary school teachers have died from covid, there are about 208,000 secondary school teachers. Even if all teachers have had it already are you saying that the vaccine would only have saved 4? 

Fifty-two of those who died were secondary school teachers, equating to a death rate of 39.2 deaths per 100,000 men

We've already seen doctored statistics where the risk to teachers has been based on schools not fully open and cases and deaths of older teachers were removed before calculations were made and published.  

For all I care schools can stay on key workers only.  I don't have kids at home. However parents and employers don't agree. 

Strong wording about the rational for not vaccinating teachers coming out of the JCVI. 

”If you go down to teachers or policemen, you’re approaching one in 50,000 [vaccines delivered per life saved]. It’s an extraordinarily inefficient way in the crisis to use vaccines – to start going out to these other lobbying groups who are perceiving themselves to be at enhanced risk of exposure, but who are not actually and demonstrably at enhanced risk of getting sick and dying.“

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/30/older-...

The key point is the difference between actual and perceived risk.

Teachers make out that they’re dying in droves, pushed onto the frontlines of the battle against the virus, but in reality there’s no evidence to justify this.

How can that be accurate. Up to the end of December 32 male secondary school teachers died from covid, there are fewer than 100,000 in total. Fag packet figures, but assuming about 25% have already had covid won't vaccinating the rest save about 100 lives and prevent 400 from suffering from long covid. 

Edit it is 29 three died this year.

The JCVI conclusion does seem statistically suspect. I hope the teachers unions are asking someone suitable qualified to evaluate.

The teachers unions aren’t above massaging statistics themselves when it suits their agenda.

Whilst the safety of their members is as good an agenda as anything, massaged statistics help nobody. Proper evaluation by someone suitably qualified can though.

I agree, but the figure 52 secondary school teachers have died from covid in 2020 came from the ONS.

I wasn’t disagreeing with the numbers of teachers who have died.

I was referring to an article in the TES which one of my ex work colleagues was, along with others, touting all over Facebook as an example of how many teachers were off work with Covid. An examination of the data actually showed that while thousands of teaching staff were off work due to Covid most were self isolating due to contact with infected pupils and not because they had Covid themselves. Something the headlines didn’t mention and something that didn’t help the morale of teachers already working in difficult conditions. That a union which is tasked with looking after its members would see such an article as appropriate or helpful is disappointing.

Surely the TES should be taken to task here, not the Union, or am I missing something.

Thanks, I was looking for the article and lost track of it. 

I’m trying to find the article in question.

The TES should be taken to task but I think that one of the unions provided the data.

I’ll see if I can find the TES article before I slag anybody off anymore.

That's odd because none of the schools I've been in since this started included pupil teacher interaction for isolation unless the teacher had spent 15 minutes one to one nearer than 1m, which in most cases has been avoided.  

Teachers I've covered for have been off with Covid or off because their immediate family have Covid or their children have been isolating.  

I think, I remember that article and again fag packet calculations can be helpful. If prevalence was below 1% in the general population, the idea that it could be 3 or 4 times higher amongst teachers was just about believable, 30 to 40 times wasn't.

Still can't get my head round this vaccinating 100,000 teachers only saves two lives. Perhaps they mean 100,000 white female teachers in their 20's with no underlying conditions? 

That has changed, but originally I'm pretty sure it was 15 minutes at 2 mtrs, and 2 minutes at 1 minute - then you would have to self isolate. The guidance from DfE then went to any time at 1 mtr distance meant you would have to self isolate if that child subsequently tested positive in whatever the time frame was from first symptoms. Twice last term before the change I got checked because of a positive in a class I had been teaching, but because I hadn't been within a metre of the kid for 2 minutes I was deemed 'safe' but most of the class went home because they can't be sure how close the kids got to each other and break and so on. I think if it had been later (December maybe?) when the guidance changed - in one of those cases I would have had to self isolate.

In addition to that, locally schools have interpreted the guidance very differently. After two siblings tested positive, on then same day,  one school only sent 8 pupils home, another sent about 150 students home and 4 members of staff.

Nice bit of cherry picking.
You can't compare occupations from an equivalent professional background and ignore all the other occupations at different professional backgrounds to try and prove that teachers are more exposed to Covid-19.
Unless of course you think that the people in those occupations don't matter...
Using data from the ONS, the death rate for male teachers is 18.4.
Elementary trades and related occupations is 96.5.
Textiles, printing and other skilled trades is 83.2.
The lists in the attached excel file have extensive data that demonstrates that there are numerous occupations which have a much higher death rate than teaching and Table 4 from that file is attached as a photo (not sure if it will be large enough to be legible).
Again, as I've repeatedly said, if you vaccinate teachers, then you must consider vaccinating other job sectors and not ignore them just because they're continuing to run in the background and not kicking up a fuss.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/cau...

Why are trades working then? Could it be that they are self employed and won't get money?

Why aren't textile workers wearing masks and using screens to keep workers safe?  

Why aren't the HSE doing anything?  

To be honest, I think there is a fair bit of luck involved with whether an individual site gets an outbreak and/or isolated cases because we've had one major outbreak that closed down most of the factory and numerous minor ones that have closed down individual departments. 

Not all teachers are old or vulnerable.

In fact not all of ANY occupation are old or vulnerable.

Every time one group claims that they are the most important, and that the normal "rules" don't apply to them, then members of other groups are going to get pi$$ed off.

If the middle-aged (or older) Asian who runs the corner shop gets Covid, then their likelihood of dying - along with their entire families likelihood ! - is far greater than that of a white, middle-class teacher.

If someone working at the local supermarket goes down with Covid, then the likelihood of the rest of the staff either getting or having to isolate is quite high (as my nephew can attest), then NOBODY can get any food, at least not without finding another supermarket.

We are ALL in this together, whether we like it or not, and, equally whether we all like it or not, the age group at school is the least likely to be able to stop closely interacting with each other. Hence it is, whether we like it or not, better that this age group is not brought together in vast numbers on a daily basis.

YES, there ARE key workers who have children that need looking after. But this is being abused. Just because ONE parent is key, doesn't mean their child gets to go to school, whilst the other parent is watching the TV or working from home. And then, just because some boss claims their workers are key doesn't actually mean they really are.

How come the number of so-called "children of key workers" has mushroomed. If the numbers were similar to the first lockdown then social distancing would be a darn sight easier, and the chances of contamination would be so much less.

Looking at the first line of the image you posted.

Might there not be other factors at work here?

For example Corporate mangers and directors, might be risk takers, or might think they're "above" taking precautions. So their attitude might be putting them more at risk than others.

I may "want" the pubs to open, and maybe so do many others.

But what I or others, however many, "want" is immaterial.

The point is; "what will bring this virus under control and stop people becoming ill and dying and overwhelming the NHS, which in turn makes getting ill more likely to involve dying".

Children can catch up on education, children can be educated at home, it's not ideal, but what is right now.

But children will not be in a good place if their friends parents and grandparents die of Covid, and their friends know that it's their fault for passing it on.

Why are mentioning Corporate mangers and directors when they've got a relatively low Death Rate? 
Wouldn't it be better to look at the high Death Rate occupations first?
As an aside, why are you assuming that they are risk takers/above taking precautions? Reverse snobbery perhaps?
 

100 per year ? Against a national figure (for England only) of currently over 1000 a day dying.

If you're a teacher I do hope you don't teach statistics.

I didn't say they were either of these.

Again never suggested this at all.

I don't think they, teachers, were claiming this, I was suggesting it was a good idea, not that I was agreeing with teachers claims.

But let's look at what a teacher can provide, they are teaching, which is something our children need, the children also get a chance to socialise instead of being locked up at home for months on end, they allow others to go to work, thereby supporting our economy.

The shop worker has the opportunity to build preventative measures to limit contamination.

I also put teachers after the vulnerable!

But your argument is based on us NOT being equal and it's obviously bollocks, because NHS front-line staff are more important than anyone, without them were in real trouble.

Where's your evidence for this? This is plainly DM front page drivel. There maybe a few who do this, but you're painting, or at least trying to, everyone as liars and cheats. I suppose people on Universal Credit  are all scroungers too.

What about the one's that are actually, assuming some of what you posted is correct, key workers?

"I may "want" the pubs to open, and maybe so do many others."

Are you seriously talking about opening pubs like its as important as opening schools. FFS. 

And the absolute criminal stupidity of it is we had schools closed when we had bars and restuarants open, it's only just sinking in that we can't keep kids out of school much longer. They can't see Granny anyway, and Granny if over 75 is vaccinated or will be very soon. 

And yes, kids can catch up, much longer and it'll be harder. We can get kids back, that should happen asap, we certainly should not wait until everyone is vaccinated.

If you read my post, it was the first item on the list, which I stated in the post you asking me why?

"Again, as I've repeatedly said, if you vaccinate teachers, then you must consider vaccinating other job sectors and not ignore them just because they're continuing to run in the background and not kicking up a fuss."

FFS this is happening! They are vaccinating all front line workers. They will be after medical professionals and those with high risk conditions. 

Just because you say something is happening doesn't make it true. The unions/organizations for all these groups will be pushing to get them done. 

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/teachers-police-and-retail-staff-likely-i...

"Health Secretary Matt Hancock told the House of Commons last week: “We’ll be looking very carefully at those professions that will need to be prioritised in phase two of the prioritisation programme. We’ll look at, of course, teachers and police and others, but also we will look at shopworkers and we will make those decisions based on the data”."

Teachers with health conditions are already in groups 4 & 6 and teachers over 50 are already in groups 7, 8 & 9 of the existing UK priority groups. I'm assuming not many teachers are over 65. 

Priority groups 1-9 are 32 million people.  

Hence any changed prioritisation of teachers would only apply to teachers under 50 with no underlying health conditions. 

There are about 20 million adults under 50 and in the first peak (March-June 2020) there were 192 UK Covid deaths in ages 0-49 with no underlying health issue. 

Teachers in general might get priority but it won't make much difference because the teachers who really need priority already have it.

I suspect that groups 10,11,12... do not exist because the different priorities are so low (very very low risk and very very very low risk). It's getting to the point it might need every single adult under 50 without a health condition to get infected to exceed normal road deaths (1800 per year in total for all ages). At that point priorities may be more for the administrative convenience of making the right number of vaccination appointments per week.

1. Residents in care homes for older adults and their carers
2. 80-year-olds and over and frontline health and social care workers
3. 75-year-olds and over
4. 70-year-olds and over and clinically extremely vulnerable individuals
5. 65-year-olds and over
6. 16- to 64-year-olds with serious underlying health conditions
7. 60-year-olds and over
8. 55-year-olds and over
9. 50-year-olds and over

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55045639

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformati...

I'm asking because you're reasoning about mentioning Corporate mangers and directors is illogical based on the data and seemingly the only reason that you've mentioned them is to accuse them of something that contributes to their already low death rate.

Here all teachers and grocery workers, and any other front line group is group 1b. Older teachers may get it earlier but we have few over 65, but do have some.

I just ran with a butcher at the local super market and me and him will get it within weeks of each other. He's in a different town so he may get it before me. 

How about all the other job sectors that are at equal or greater risk of exposure to teachers that aren't front line workers?
As it stands, they won't get vaccinated until their normal allocated time in the process happens.
Yet, there are calls from many to prioritise teachers and get them all vaccinated during half term regardless of age.
Vaccinate teachers, then you need to vaccinate people working in shops, etc. at the same time.

Here’s the TES article -

https://www.tes.com/news/coronavirus-nearly-20k-teachers-due-covid-mid-dece...
 

You provided the article.

For a male secondary school teacher it is 39 even though schools have not been fully open for 8 months during which the data was collected, but I think you are misinterpreting what I have said in my posts. I have said that if people are at more risk because of their essential jobs that can't be made any safer,  they should be prioritised over the likes of me, who is able to self isolate of a choose, even though I am older.

If you read my posts, I thought I had made clear, by referring to key workers not just teachers.

In response to your edit.
Bit rich you accusing me of that when you seem to be conveniently ignoring the numerous calls on this thread and articles in the news that teachers need to be prioritised before numerous other job sectors and with the entire profession being done at half term.
I don't think other job sectors are pushing quite as forcibly for vaccination out of synch with the rest of the population and certainly not in two weeks time as called for by many.

I'm not sure what you are getting at? That post was to question a previous one that stated  vaccinating 50000 teachers would only save one life.

Why can you point out where I have gone wrong, it's not unheard of, but I do agree with your statement about 1000 dying per day, just not sure what it has to do with my post.

I'll respond to that when you respond how Teachers have resisted any changes..

You've literally quoted one guy in Labour. There's no chance they can vaccinate then . To be immune, even after the two doses, takes 2 months. It's about ensuring the teachers can be back in the autumn.

THIS

IS

WHAT 

IS 

HAPPENING

Because schools were closed. FFS are you really this stupid. 

We can not vaccinate teachers, keep schools closed, keep deaths low. Or we get workers back to work, and their kids in school, so we vaccinate teachers.

Jesus this is infuriating.

Re teachers unions pushing for vaccinations. Yes they will do that. That's their job. Sewage workers unions will be doing the same, shop worker unions will be doing the same. Every professional organization will be pushing for their group and the Government have said the second tier is teachers and other front line workers.

I think the difference in the figures shows why primary schools should probably open first. Secondary staff have death rates that are more than double primary. the figure i quoted was also from the ONS

I think what other have tried to say is that we also need to factor in where people have contracted the virus. If a teacher caught it in the pub they can't say it was as a result of their job. The other link you provided showed the number of outbreaks in schools, offices, manufacturing etc.

Here's its also very complicated by ethnic background and poverty.

Death rates in Filipino nurses are scary, whether thats a health issue, diet, genetic, housing they don't know but it was almost 30% of deaths in US nurses were filipino yet only 10% of nurses are.

Some states are prioritizing POC here because they have been so much more hit than white people, especially well off white people.

BAME doctors here suffered disproportionately, particularly at the start, not helped by a lack of PPE. I think i said somewhere up thread that there is an argument for looking at other factors not just age, but not sure the internet is the best place for the nuance involved.   Different occupations has generated this, as you say ethnicity and poverty are major factors and that is before we have got onto the more moderate underlying conditions.

For God's sake Roadrunner, I do not.

I was simply stating that WANTS are not NEEDS.

We have enough idiots who want to go to a rave - and do.

I also said that I "MAY" want - it was an example of the idiocy that is going on.

Far too many people seem to regard their WANTS as more important than other people's NEEDS.

I'd like a lot of other things to return to normal, but they're not going to unless and until a suitable percentage of the population in my country are vaccinated - and I would support this being done by force if necessary, due to the health disaster if the anti-vaccers are allowed to walk the streets afterwards.

I say "my country", because only in this would it be normal. We NEED to vaccinate the whole world, geographically secure area by area, to (ideally) eliminate this virus. New Zealand and Australia seem to have done rather well in their way.

Also a number of things you are stating which are true for you in the USA (and your private schools), are not for us back in blighty, particularly in regard to our state schools.

The virus isn't going away. Forget that.

If we get 70% vaccinated itll be incredible. Globally there is no chance we will get over 60% vaccinated.

I'd rather people directed their anger towards anti vaxxers than groups like teachers just doing their best but that's a stupid pie in the sky idea.

At best we can hope to suppress it and slowly we'll treat it like any other respiratory virus.

Re vaccination priorities between the US and UK it's very similar. Schooling also. We live very similar lives. The track of the virus has been almost identical in both countries.

I've not got my TES password so I can't read it all, but the article starts with "Covid related reasons" which seems clear to me that not all of them have caught it.  

In the first wave 192 people not in priority groups 1-9 died. Within 192 people will be little demographic breakdown to decide priorities for the perhaps 20 million adults under 50 with no underlying health issue. 

In the absence of evidence it's not clear that prioritising a 45+ teacher is better than prioritising 19 year old barista who has lots of elderly customers. Perhaps priorities should be based on hospital admissions, long covid, economic impact or number of contacts (hence choice of barista as example). 

I think basing priorities on demographics of non-fatal Covid consequences such as hospital admissions or long covid is something the NHS could do for healthy under fifties.

I suspect NHS is not equipped to make decisions on the basis of economic impact, number of contacts or some other criteria not recorded in medical records. 

It may be that it is quicker and less contentious to get to the remaining 20 million adults vaccinated simply by age 45+, 40+, 35+ etc without any evidence this is the best prioritisation when there is no evidence for any better prioritisation.

Sorry, I didn’t realise that you needed a password to access the article.

You are right that you don’t need to go very far into the article to realise that it’s talking about Covid related absences.

However, the opening headlines of - 

‘Nearly 20K teachers off due to Covid by mid-December. New official statistics reveal the full extent of how coronavirus staff absence hit schools in England.’

are misleading and were used by some to demonstrate how not only were teachers at risk but also that the government was lying about the risk that teachers faced.

It must be scary enough being in school at the moment without your own colleagues exaggerating the dangers.

The issue is panic v denial attitudes. Very few with good common sense, moderate views. As always too many have ran to the extremes. If we'd have used common sense since march we'd be in a much different spot now.

It's also about keeping it simple. I'm in a state which is possibly over stratifying and vaccinating slowly. There's a balance to be had and no system is perfect. Luckily we've loads of vaccination experts and epidemiologists on Facebook and such lke to point issues out.. there's arguments either way. Tbf to the UK government they are doing a pretty good job so far - surprisingly so but well done to them.

And maybe we are being too cautious vaccinating teachers but the last thing we want is to have to close schools again if the virus did surge in what will be unvaccinated kids. We need kids out of the houses if the economy is to really bounce back.

I'm sure I'm not the only parent to admit when I'm working full time from home and supervising my 5 year olds home schooling I'm not doing my best work. 

I agree with your later point that hospitalisation will probably be a more important factor moving forward.

I thought that a 45 year old was at considerable more personal risk than a 19 year old? The other point I think you are making here to me highlights a difference between key workers and others. I accept your point the elderly customers, but that is their choice and by the time schools are back they should be vaccinated. It also raises questions about if we are going to prioritise opening certain activities should we also prioritise vaccinating the staff?  If we are trying to consider the effect of spreading the virus as well as personal risk, yes teachers are likely to pass it on to other staff and children who are unlikely to be severely affected, but who will they pass it onto. I think we can agree it is not simple.

I think this is ball park figure, most key workers are proposing. I don't think anyone is suggesting it is before the 70+'s. I have previously suggested slightly higher, especially for people in their 50's who can effectively continue to self isolate, WFH are furloughed

For bigger organisations it shouldn't be a problem teachers, police, major supermarkets etc. I accept that for say small independent essential shops it could be problematic. Do you know how they are doing it for care workers who are not part of large firms at the moment?

You may well be correct. I'm just suggesting that it might not be the most effective way. 

Certainly can.

NHS does not have that information in medical records.

It may be a bit haphazard, I think they may be relying on local NHS & GPs knowing local care homes, charities and volunteer organisations etc., perhaps each teacher should get a letter from school to take to GP for a booking.  

Almost certainly not the most effective way but better to just crack on when we may never know what is the most effective way.

If we don't vaccinate teachers, and they then have to self isolate, we're also having to self isolate 30+ kids, because there's no one to teach them.

Which then might well mean 30 + adults can't go to work, which might well mean ....... well you get the point.

And that's only one teacher. Multiply this by 500,000 and then add in, the possibility of other teachers from the same school needing to self isolate because one teacher in the school has tested positive.

It's really interesting the people on here against vaccinating teachers are some of same people advocating climbing was safe and a reasonable "exercise" during travel restrictions and requests to stay home.

If kids are posing a threat to teachers surely they are also posing a threat to parents? People have children much later in life these days. Once you decide to vaccinate parents as well as teachers then you might as well just wait for the general public to be vaccinated and for the risk to drop that way. 

I don't think you can extrapolate from your position and imagine that every household is like yours.

Children often live with their grandparents, or may be in multigenerational households. Perhaps their parents are at grandperson ages anyway. Perhaps their parents have comorbidities or are vulnerable. 

I'm not sure why the risk is intolerable for teachers but it's fine to send children home after a covid outbreak at a school. 

That's not how I read the headline, but of course I'm already aware that teachers are off due to Covid without having Covid so I can't say how someone else would read it.

Having said that, in December there were a lot of teachers off having caught Covid, and whatever the reason its simply not good to be in the position we were in during mid December.  I taught numerous classes who had 5 supply teachers a day during the penultimate week of term.  It doesn't matter why the teacher is off, that isn't good. 

I'm pretty sure the legal requirement to provide a safe working environment doesn't apply to parenting the children you chose to have in your home.  

Nor do most people have 150 kids in their house. 

Where exactly should we send the infected children?  

Too many people, including me, with too much time on their hands doesn't help. I just got a bit frustrated by a statistic from a reputable source that to me was obviously incorrect. Although fred seems to think there is something wrong with my sums.

Suggesting you need to vaccinate 50,000 teachers to prevent one death given the number of teachers who have already died seem to be nonsense. I think I have found out where that has come from, based on ONS data so far 1 in 47,000 people under 50 have died from covid, but to apply that to teachers to me seems misleading, it takes no account that no teachers are under 20 or that they are teaching might be riskier than some other occupations. Fred can correct my maths, but so far 139 teachers have died out of 500,000 suggesting you would have needed to vaccinate about 3500 teachers to prevent a death. So lower than the general 60 to 65 group, but higher than the 55 to 60 group.

edit there are about 500,000 teachers but the 139 includes some others, but I don't think it will amount to more than a few thousand.

 It found that 139 teachers, senior education professionals, education advisers and school inspectors died between March 9 and December 29. 

"I don't think you can extrapolate from your position and imagine that every household is like yours."

You can.. most kids don't live with their grandparents. Thats how society works. 

And yes parents will have co-morbidities and they will be vaccinated. That's why we are vaccinating the way we are to specifically address your points. You do realize as teachers we've been teaching online and remote all year. Kids in high risk homes will stay home until those at risk people are vaccinated. That's how it has been working. Not ideal but we shouldn't hold back others.

The pandemic response isn't about avoiding all death. Just not overwhelming resources. It's why we don't lock down every flu season. Most parents who won't be prioritized for the vaccine will be younger and healthier. I am sure they could continue to get their kids remote schooled until they are vaccinated if they want. But again if we want to reduce school spread, mask kids, double mask kids even. 

By the way, I was called selfish on UKC for teaching in person through the pandemic. It's pretty great to be told you are selfish for teaching and also allegedly arrogant and feeling superior that teachers won't teach in person (when they will.. - but why let facts get in the way of a UKC argument..). As always teachers just cannot win. The CDC have now said schools should open because we know how to do it low risk.. because schools like mine have been working with the state health departments researching how we can be open. We just PCR tested 600 kids and are even trialing take home antigen tests.

I'm not sure of your last point. How have I said it is intolerable? What have I said is intolerable? Can you please point that out? I've worked in person as a teacher, unvaccinated through most of the pandemic, and have said as a low risk 41 year old I'm willing to wait.

Although most of us healthy teachers won't be vaccinated until late Spring/early summer, we won't reach peak immunity until mid - late summer so we should be ready for the next school year. The virus will follow the trajectory of last summer too and naturally wane as our behaviors change, like it did last summer. During this summer the % vaccinated will increase massively, immunity will lag but also increase. Most young healthy people will get vaccinated at some point during this spring and summer. It doesn't matter too much when that happens.

So are you arguing we don't open up society at all until everyone is vaccinated? We will be well into 2022 before that happens. 

The argument for teachers is they will be around 25-30 kids in an enclosed space. We know viral load is an issue in the severity of the disease.

You seem to be arguing for the sake of it. If you disagree list who should be vaccinated? It seems easy to say the order is wrong, then suggest another way? No order is perfect. Teachers are actually pretty far down the list so I'm pretty surprised by this thread.

This is the study that the NEU published.
 

https://neu.org.uk/press-releases/impact-covid-school-workforce

Maybe someone who is better at crunching the numbers than me - just about anybody - would have a look at it and care to pass comment?

I worry about the new variant in this environment. Thankfully cases are coming down, probably faster than many people thought. How much of this is due to schools not being fully open?

Yeah, we're lucky in that the spring/summer decline and the vaccinations will run hand in hand so (touch wood), we should see a consistent trend in the right direction. The new variants will slow things down but so far the vaccines show good efficacy against them.

Eh? The vaccine prioritisation strategy is about stopping people from dying, most of which are over working age. I'm not sure workplace health and safety legislation comes into it.

That's exactly my point. Apparently into millions of homes across the country.

Of course work place health and safety is massive.

My wife just got vaccinated as an MD. She's public facing, I see more covid people. She's seen 2 people with covid in a year.

Come on, come up with a better order? No way is perfect. We just need to get on with it.

Using your numbers 139 teachers have died out of 500,000.

My numbers - 192 people of the 50000+ deaths in first wave were under 50 & no underlying health issue (ie not in groups 1-9)

Hence of 139 teachers who died we would expect 139*200/50000 to be under 50 with no health issues. That is half a teacher.

Supposing it's all repeated in the current wave and without vaccination there would be 139 deaths amongst teachers.

138.5 teachers are saved because they are already in priorities 1-9 (over 50 or underlying health issue).

Prioritising teachers for vaccination saves half a teacher under 50 & no underlying health issue.

If I'm wrong by a factor of 10 you save 5 teachers by vaccinating a few hundred thousand teachers under 50.

No I'm not, please point me to where I said that. 

So you're advocating for a uncontrolled spread of coronavirus in our schools providing that teachers will be OK. 

I thought we were past the anti-lockdown and heard immunity arguments. We need to get the spread down, we could have locked down like New Zealand and sent all of our kids back but there's always someone who wants to lift the lockdown.

You're the one who is arguing for a a delay to returning to normality by arguing for these pathetic policies of keeping the pandemic going as long as possible. We need to stay in lockdown until transmission has all but stopped, the vaccine will accelerate this which is great but we need to stop transmission.

I'm not. I'm arguing for a risk-based approach. I'm arguing against moving teachers up the list for populist reasons, I want the people who are most likely to die from Covid to receive the vaccinations first.

How have I argued for uncontrolled spread? 

Masked kids, socially distanced.

I'd expect an apology but I suspect you won't.

I worked in NZ for NZ Biosecurity. We had no chance of an NZ style approach. Absolutely no chance. To suggest so is absolutely idiotic. Seriously have you any idea how isolated NZ is and how much they value Biosecurity and have the measures and testing in place. 

I worked on their science strategy back in 2005 and we identified lots of what they have done. The UK was in no position to take their response. Even partial lock downs were caught against. It was Impossible and also too late.when I was there we closed down a navy base because of an invasive sea squirt. Could you imagine that happening anywhere else? 'CLEAN GREEN NEW ZEALAND'. No country in the western world would tolerate the measures taken in NZ and also china. I still no many kiwis and it's fair to say their response had critics and that's in a country which historically takes a string view on Biosecurity.

To bleat on about choices made 1 year ago is also pointless stupidity.

," I want the people who are most likely to die from Covid to receive the vaccinations first"

FFS this is the whole f*cking way they have done it! 

https://theisleofthanetnews.com/2021/01/31/school-staff-urged-not-to-book-c...

Oops! 

Wow. Just wow. 

You're a lost cause. Let's call it a day. 

How is it? 10'000s a year die from the flu. Do we make vaccinations compulsory? Do we close schools? No. We accept a low key level of death. You might not like that but it's true.

Look at speed limits? We'd reduce deaths of we halfed all speed limits. Will we? Nope.

I'm going to guess that you have no experience working in Biosecurity or public health..

Do you seriously think this was about avoiding ALL death? If it was we'd have locked down and banned all travel. It's about not over whelming medical resources and minimizing deaths where it's possible. I'm kind of amazed you think otherwise but sadly shouldn't be.

Yes let's call it a day because yet again you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Vaccinations so far have almost been all targeted to the at risk from death.

Keep digging pal. 

Good answers.. pal..

Haha I love how you can't answer why we don't take massive responses to the flu when we know it kills thousands a year..

Maybe we don't aim to stop all deaths.

Yeah similar has happened here. It's going to happen. Lots of these are being staffed by volunteers too. Mistakes will happen. My wife's medschool has all their students now trained up and vaccinating. Supposedly you can rock up at some testing sites and get a vaccine but you'd hope people are socially responsible.

Re your stupid comment about herd immunity.

I've taught in person for 6 months. Masked, socially distanced, seating plans, testing, symptom apps, new teaching techniques.

We've not had one case of in school transmission. To suggest I'm arguing for uncontrolled spread is an ignorant statement and I'd ask you to back that up but I suspect you know you are talking shit.

Schools will open before 100% vaccinations - which is totally unattainable.

Bars had been open for months and you seriously think the pandemic response was about avoiding all deaths.. do you realize how silly that statement is?

Incredibly here we've lost thousands of doses through freezers breaking down or worse unplugged by mistake.. 

There was one hospital nurses stayed up vaccinating through the night anyone they could find so at least doses went in arms.

This is not a reply directly to you but is a response to some of the falsehood being purported here. 

1. Schools are closed. They are not! In my school, we have more than 50% of pupils in school. We have a high proportion of both vulnerable children and those of key workers. For the last 4 weeks, I have had 17 children in my classroom each day. All of our classes have similar numbers. I have been teaching my class in school and my class at home simultaneously via Teams. The feedback and support for children at home goes on well into the evening each day and continues through the weekend.

2. Schools are  'covid secure'. There is little social distancing in school and the job (in a primary setting) is one where this is very hard to achieve. There is no PPE being used in classrooms, only in corridors and communal areas. Our families are at times behaving in ways which are extremely irresponsible. A child in my class was absent on Friday as two other family members had tested positive for covid. They had symptoms on Tuesday, were tested on Wednesday but only decided not to send her on Friday when the positive test results were returned! Similar behaviour has occurred on a number of occasions since September.

3. Teachers are not at more risk than others and so don't require early vaccination. It is difficult to answer this as the data is relatively bollocks. I would argue that there are few other professions at present with a similar number of close contacts and no PPE. This is however not the POINT. If the government wish to keep schools open even at the levels that they are now and are looking at an earlier full reopening than other sectors, they need to vaccinate for the simple reason that with covid still widely in circulation, teachers will be forced to self isolate if they catch it. This will close bubbles and disrupt education.

4. Teachers are basically part-timers, starting at 9 knocking off at  and so should be teaching catch up classes during the holidays. I'll tell you what, shall we not go there?

James

My numbers are for the first 63,000 and they got 1 in 47,000 from 600 deaths in the under 50's. They also have a  different category for "clinically extremely vulnerable" and a further category for 16 to 64 with underlying conditions (another 600 deaths?) It seems very different to your figures , so I'll check my source, but the other values fit with those quoted up thread.  My would also suggest that about half the teachers had no underlying conditions? I might be able to look this up. Even so, I take your point that the number of teacher deaths would be very small. To my mind worst case is that 139 deaths came as as result of 25% of teachers being infected, so even if every other teacher was infected  that is about 400 and given improved protocols probably 200. If fewer than an additional 7.5% get infected, which should be achievable, it is then less than 20. 

As per my OP, we were told it was a mistake. Now we know what happened! Thanks for the link.

Hopefully she’ll still get the second one.

PS I'm not saying prioritising all teachers is a wrong. I am saying it is perhaps 250 times less important than vaccinating teachers who are already prioritised in groups 1-9.

"No I'm not, please point me to where I said that. "

You said the pandemic response was about avoiding ALL death.

How do these statements match up? The only way we can avoid ALL death is 100% lockdown until eradication or 100% vaccinated. Or are you now saying the pandemic response isn't about avoiding all deaths.. 

And as we saw lockdowns work at reducing not eradicating the disease, you don't get 100% compliance in countries like the UK and the US, it's just a fact of life. In countries like the UK inter-regional travel is essential. It's not in NZ.

Now do all that, but not for dying, but for interruptions to the number of people due to having to self isolate.

For instance I can self isolate without my pupils having to do so, on the whole my work can be put on hold for a week without major issues for anyone else. I can also work without interacting with other people, for the most part.

It makes much more sense for a teacher of the same age and risks as me to be vaccinated before I do.

No I agree, if a teacher is fit and in their 20's they are probably not too worried. I'm of the opinion that a teacher in their 40's should be ahead of someone like me sitting at home in my 50's. After you previous post I looked for some newspaper articles and found two teachers in their 40's with no underlying conditions who died this year, too depressed to look for more. As you would expect the majority with no underlying conditions were in their 50's/early 60's. One article stated that if a teacher was over 64 then they weren't included in the figures and this nearly doubled the number of teacher deaths??

When marsbar says 'people', I think she means 'the government'. Because schools reopening allows the parents to go back to work, increasing economic activity, as well as reducing furlough payments.

Of course, if they hadn't allowed the situation to get so out of hand...

It's going to be a pain vaccinating. I see the argument for using school holidays or at least the last day of the week. It'll certainly interupt classes like it has medical care. In my wife's hospital lots of her colleagues and her reacted badly to the second jab. One compared it to the worst hang over ever. 

I suspect many of those without kids don't realize how unsustainable it is working with kids home schooling. It's not just that their schooling is sub par (plus loss of sports), it's the double whammy hit on parents working effectively.

As I said earlier "Perhaps priorities should be based on hospital admissions, long covid, economic impact or number of contacts" and "perhaps each teacher should get a letter from school to take to GP for a booking".

This is sort of what may happen but I think it'll just be school ID and head to your nearest vaccine site or get a log in to book one. but it's a balance between just making it simple and getting numbers in and getting the order spot on.

We likely won't stratify our teacher vaccinations just because it's another layer of complexity, although I see why a 55 year old teacher should get it before me.

Yes, they are. 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/...

I don't think anyone suggested that can't happen.. although it again questions the lack of masks in schools.. it's pretty hard to argue that schools won't continue to be sources of infections but the argument is once we've vaccinated the at risk groups that's less of an issue. And if we use better systems we can minimize community transmission. As said we've 0 known cases of transmission. But we have 2m between every desk and kids in masks. Public schools can't do that with their class sizes.

But let's agree to not vaccinate teachers.

How long do we keep schools at reduced capacity for? Or how do we cope with 25-30 kids in a class and teachers out lots?

As said I'm happy to delay my own vaccination.

Teaching in person is harder. On line it's shit but easy. No commute. No duties. Loads of time to run but we know it's bad for the kids. Id certainly cope with being told to be remote for the next 6 months.

Nope didn't say that either. You're clearly wanting to argue with a straw man today, and you've been arguing with yourself for a few hours now so mission accomplished. 

Is everything ok? As funny as this is, I'm getting worried about you. Maybe instead of responding 3 or 4 times to each of my posts perhaps you should step away from your keyboard for a while and relax. 

You've been camped out on this thread all day and it's not healthy.

I've ran 15 miles.. have you? You refuse to address points then bleet on about an island the other side of the world. I suggest you're the one who isn't ok. An island im guessing you have never visited or lived in yet want to comment on with authority..

That's interesting, thanks! How dare you post evidence on this thread though. 😉

Or your experiences as a teacher or in NZ!

 "There continues to be strong evidence that children and younger people (<18 years) aremuch less susceptible to severe clinical disease than older people (high confidence).

• There is clear evidence of the negative educational impact of missing school, particularlyf foryounger children, as investments in children’s learning tend to accumulate and consolidate over time (high confidence).

• There is evidence that the pandemic has negatively impacted the mental health ofc childrenand young people, and that school closures cause impairment to the physicala andmental health of children. Evidence suggests that the mental health of adolescentsi isparticularly affected (high confidence)"

I think you'd find most parents will accept the risk of their kids being in school once high risk groups are vaccinated. As it is they can chose to be in many schools.

When I said the point of the pandemic response wasn't about stopping all deaths you said wow. So what is it then?

The government essentially did for a long time; "the schools are safe", etc. They kept talking about how children aren't affected, and somehow not addressing the teachers being infected. But, above all, ignoring the fact that children get infected at school, and then take the infection home to their families. Even though they had had that report since mid-September, pointing out that children 12-16 are 7 times more likely to be the first covid infection in a household than anyone over 16.

I notice you have concentrated on the minimal effects on the children, too. Apparently missing the bigger picture of their major role as community transmission vectors.

Eh? Where did it say minimal? You've actually made that up haven't you? You know when the evidence is not there.. just make it up.

As said in my town psychiatric admissions for kids have tripled. It's a genuine concern.

And yes, as a teacher I tend to focus on the kids. It's a terrible habit I have! But I've certainly seen the impact on the kids. Some are more affected than others. Sadly some have been seriously affected by this as you'd expect. Even a few weeks ago we closed our school for two weeks, one kid came up to me really upset wanting to know if he'd be out until September like last time. It's going to take these kids a while to recover, educationally, mentally and physically.

And yes, the government were wrong. Likewise kids not wearing masks in schools. We reduce community transmission if we stay in, avoid bars. That way if a kid brings it home it stays in that house. Incredibly we've only just realized that kids being in school is more important than bars being open. 

So let's agree keep schools closed. How long for? I asked earlier at what point will you support schools opening? 

Isn't it up to parents to assess that risk? It's a balance between the risk of covid and the negative impact' of a lack of socializing kids.

As a parent it's tiring making that decision daily. We've decided to school my daughter in person but she's masked all day. We decided to not let her stay in her original daycare because their covid protocols were lacking.

Could she give me and my wife covid? Yes. But she's not seen her grandparents in months and if we chose between elderly relatives and schooling. Schooling wins. 

My wife's an MD so I think we're making informed decisions.

I was referring to your quote from the report, which downplays the risk to the young:

"There continues to be strong evidence that children and younger people (<18 years) aremuch less susceptible to severe clinical disease than older people (high confidence)."

You appear to be making light of the clinical risk to young people, in the same way the government did. It is true that the clinical risk to children is low, but the risk of community transmission the pose is by far the biggest problem with schools. That is my point; if we want to get community transmission down, I think schools must stay closed.

No, it isn't. For the same reason that it's not our choice to decide to flout the rules because "we accept the risk". It's about reducing community transmission.

When to reopen schools? When we have community infection rates like we had in July, and we have a functional, effective track, trace & isolate system running.

Hold on I quoted your article which said that. Now I'm 'making light of it'? 

I'm genuinely lost.

We know covid is low risk to young healthy people. That's why we have vaccination priority lists. That's not making light of it. That's a scientific fact.

If parents have co-morbidities or are elderly those kids should stay remote until their relatives are vaccinated. That's how we do it now.

I can see that.

You chose to concentrate on a positive aspect of that report (the low clinical risk to the young). Rather than the community infection figure. We need to concentrate on reducing community infection, to bring case numbers down as fast as we can.

Which is happening.

Then let's not vaccinate teachers.

Write to your mp and get schools closed because the UK plan is to get schools open. 

You seem to be lost.

That's the whole f*cking discussion about vaccinating teachers. They aren't vaccinating teachers due to our privileged status. It's because they want schools open (more than they are because they are open..)

It's not about individual effects. It's about reducing the community case rate. Infected parents are likely to spread infection into their workplaces, either as pre-symptomatic, or asymptomatic cases.

But they can't go to work if their kids are at home so that's not an issue.

No. I'm not.

I don't think schools should re-open yet.

BUT, IF we (the government) force schools to stay open, then I think teachers should be vaccinated.

Two different, but related topics. 

Ok that's fine. And genuinely thanks for clarifying.

Others are saying we should be teaching but shouldn't be vaccinated because our profession is low risk according to the stats. The great thing about being a teacher is you get shat on either way..

Challenge for you:
Find another employment sector that is quite as vociferous as teaching when it comes to the issue of vaccination ahead of schedule based on age, etc.
If you find any that are top stories in the media, then post some links...
Bearing in mind that half term has been mentioned as a good time to do it.

Is there any other group who isn't in group 1 who is as big and represented by a union and will directly work in close contact with large numbers of the public? I doubt there's a larger union in that second tier than the teachers unions. 

Fire fighters weren't here and in Canada and fought to get out in.

https://www.iaff.org/news/ontario-fire-fighters-now-in-phase-1-for-covid-19...

https://www.firehouse.com/safety-health/news/21163848/iaff-urges-firefighte...

grocery workers unions have also been pushing for vaccinations.

https://www.ufcw.org/press-releases/americas-largest-food-retail-union-call...

Meatpackers union pushed for priority vaccine

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/meatpackers-press-for-covi...

Corrections officers unions have been in the papers here to get moved up

https://ctexaminer.com/2021/01/27/union-criticizes-state-for-lack-of-vaccin...

The Bankers and Tellers unions have been lobbying for early vaccines.

https://www.americanbanker.com/news/should-tellers-and-loan-officers-be-nea...

National Funeral Directors Association advocated for early vaccine access (and got it)

https://nfda.org/news/in-the-news/nfda-news/id/5364/funeral-directors-to-ge...

Personally I think prisoners and correction officers, and any EMS should be vaccinated before teachers.

But it would be pretty remiss for any large union of public facing workers to not lobby the government to get included. And yes there's politics going on. Teachers unions and the Conservative Government have never particularly got on. And I suspect that is why Labour have come out with the teachers because there's a lot of votes in the education field, which they traditionally get.

In fact I'd be amazed if you can't find a headline of any public facing union arguing for priority for the vaccines. It's the job of any union to lobby for their members.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/farmworkers-firefighters-flight-...

And it does make sense to do it in a holiday - personally I doubt we've vaccinated enough high risk people to be ready to move onto the next tiers. We've taken weeks to stagger vaccinations in the medical field due to absences on wards, especially following the second vaccination. The ideal window would therefore be one of the holiday periods. The aim is to get back to school normal by the fall, even hope for early summer and we know full immunity takes weeks after the vaccine. So without further disruptions to school the ideal time would be Fridays, weekends or holidays. The summer would be too late to ensure immunity is reached by the late summer start.

All the links you've provided are for the USA.

Just google "police union vaccination uk" or something similar? 

Perhaps the reason the teachers story is getting more traction is there is more public interest. Both first responders and teachers have parliamentary petitions for vaccination, but the teachers one has over 8 times as many signatures, I accept there is chicken and egg point to be made here.

Going back to your previous table, I'm not sure it gives anyone, including me, enough detail to draw too many conclusion about how risky an occupation is with respect to covid. I could make a case that 25% of male secondary school teachers who died last year had covid on the death certificate, some other occupation show a higher percentage of members dying (x3), but death rates are much higher from other causes in those sectors (x10) so I could say that only 10% of people who died working in those sectors  had covid as a reason. Without knowing what causes this, (is it he age and general health of the work force, is the job more dangerous etc.) and also knowing where people contracted covid I'm not sure anyone can say much with any certainty.  

It's like I'm in the US or something.. so yeah no union in the UK has done similar. Please identify in your challenge where you specified UK only?

Basically you are upset the press has gone with the story.

And as I asked, again though you don't like answering questions, is there a bigger public facing unionized group in group 2 than teachers?

We shouldn't be sending them somewhere where they'll get infected in the first place.

....but so far 139 teachers have died out of 500,000 suggesting you would have needed to vaccinate about 3500 teachers to prevent a death. So lower than the general 60 to 65 group, but higher than the 55 to 60 group. 

How many of those 139 were in the older age groups (60+), or had existing conditions that mean they would have been next in line for vaccination already ?

The trouble is that none of these "statistics" give us all the information required to make a reasoned decision, and this leads to emotional decisions being made, not rational ones.

I am reminded of the old adage I learnt when I first started my Mathematics A-level course (Pure & Applied Statistics); "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics".

I don't know whether the situation has changed recently, but a few years ago, the occupation with the greatest representation in Parliament changed from Legal (Lawyer/Solicitor) to Educationalist (Lecturer/Teacher).

Maybe one reason that teachers are being so vociferous is because they have friends in high places.

Probably almost all would be in priority groups 1-9. Under 50 and without underlying health conditions are not prioritised but make up about 192 deaths March to June 2020 of the 41000 ish cumulative deaths March to June 2020) My fag packet estimate is 1 in 200 of teachers who died was under 50 with no underlying health conditions.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformati...

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

Assuming current wave about same size and might kill 139 teachers (your number)

Vaccinating 400,000* teachers under 50 who have no underlying health issue would save 0.7 of a teacher

600,000 vaccines per life saved -  sounds too high, not sure I believe it but you get the picture

Vaccinating the 100,000* teachers because they are in existing priority groups 1-9 would save 138.3 teachers.

700 vaccinations per life saved for teachers who are in priority groups 1-9

*I'm guessing distribution for your total of 500,000 teachers

it is a fag packet calculation that does not take into account that 500000 teachers are adults up to 65ish and not same as 41000 adults up to 100+ who died

ha ha funny that!!

But the post I replied to didn't say anything about age or existing conditions. I have said up thread it it had said young, healthy teachers it would be about correct as elsewhere had demonstrated. Although I'm still a bit concerned about whether existing condition includes things teachers who are overweight have mild asthma etc.

Agreed in my replies to Factorx I have tried to show that we haven't got enough information to be certain of much, and people can "cherry pick" quotes or figures. even looking at death rates amongst teachers a male secondary school teacher is over 6 times as likely to die of covid when compared to a female primary school teacher is that due to gender (ok this is an easy one to sort out) primary kids transmitting the disease less, different age profiles, different lifestyles, different attitude to risk etc. who knows? I suppose my point/belief is that when you read some of the posts by key workers, they are putting themselves at far greater risk of catching the virus than me, so I am quite happy for them to vaccinated before me if they want even though I am over 50.

I know what you mean but I don't think any of the "statistics above  are lies or damm lies the problem lies in their interpretation. 

How long before they put one in charge of education?

Gove - Journalist

Morgan  Lawyer

Greening Accountant

Hinds  Brewer

Williiamson Potter

So the press haven't picked it up.

Are you seriously stating you haven't tried to belittle my view. Brilliant. You just refuse to answer questions.

Re the US because we're human. An 8 x 8 classroom with 25 kids and one teacher in is the same. Likewise fire trucks. We live near identical lives. Our disease trajectories have mirrored each other so to pretend it's irrelevant is ludicrous even for you.

It's laughable you quote Unite because many of their workers aren't high risk. It's a massively varied union. Teachers will be if back in 25 people classrooms. If you can find an industry working in a similar density to teachers not in priority list 2 then point it out. Unite can't go to the Government and say vaccinate our members because most won't be a priority. They'd be laughed out the room. The fact that you e gone for such a general union suggests youve failed my challenge. You do realize unite aren't a union of a single workforce like teachers unions? Or the FBU? It's totally irrelevant to this discussion, much more say than a fire brigade union in another country which represents a single profession. Which you deemed irrelevant. Laughable! 

All you've done is argue for what is happening because you aren't informed. You want high risk people first, that's happening. Yes other industries are high risk, yes they'll get vaccinated. 

The squeaky wheel gets the oil. We've just seen MA state teachers drop back in the vaccine list because another group kicked up more of a fuss. 

As said, unions are doing their job campaigning for it. Teachers need to be vaccinated it they are working in person at the densities they are. Should others be? Yes. 

Never knew cockneys saw Williamson as a snotter

Well education. Is one of the largest single professions in the UK so that's not entirely unexpected. Most MPs will come from professional level jobs and teaching is one of the largest in that category.

It's also click bait.

The unions make a statement, the Daily mail runs with it, people read it. Teachers are a group that people love or hate. Textile workers asking for something won't make the news.

We had snow a week ago and went remote. The news was full of killjoy teachers taking snow days away from kids. Today we've had a foot of snow so we had a traditional snow day planned. Turn on the news and 'lazy teachers take snow day when they can work remote'.

It's the great thing about teaching. No matter what you do someone, somewhere will be complaining on social media.

On UKC we were called selfish last week for teaching through a pandemic. Now we're arrogant with a sense of superiority (from someone who doesn't like insults..) for wanting the vaccine to teach through the pandemic.

Also a significant number of people seem to think they know how to do a better job. My climbing partner is 2nd in charge of a Chem. Eng. plant that employs a similar number of workers to a big secondary school. We never met anyone who told him how to do his job, but plenty expressed an opinion on where I was going wrong. Unfortunately Mrs J had to live through the consequences of this when someone thought a NHS manager (nothing against them, I wouldn't have a clue how to run a hospital) could be a headteacher. It took about 8 years (26 million pounds of extra funding) to undo the chaos he created in 18 months.

Exactly. And everyone can relate to it, we all went to school, we've all experience of good and bad teachers. Textile workers don't generate the same news. We're going to have an even greater shortage of teachers after this, so plenty can step up. Work 6 hours a day, loads of holidays. It's easy. I don't get why we have shortages.

Have you got a source for this, I’ve not checked all 650 MPs, but it isn’t reflected in the 26 MPs who attend Cabinet, none of whom have any kind of teaching background.

I can't think of one!

Actually, Jesse Norman.

I was wondering that, I found this (table 10 page 15) but is only up to 2015. I assume the last few elections have dramatically changed the trends since 1997??

file:///home/chronos/u-414ceba66794e7f741ca560a62d8f6c6d7c9d56f/MyFiles/Dow... 

After a quick read  I'm guessing the opposite is true, in 1997 136 MP's had been teachers/lectures by 2017 it was down to 31 (and only 6 Tories) I'm sceptical that many of the "Red Wall Tories" had previously been teachers/lecturers.

Sadly, those who had been didn't particularly shine: both Estelle Morris and Gillian Shepherd were uninspiring in their different ways. David Blunkett (lecturer) struck me as far more passionate and committed. While I didn't agree with all his "reforms" at least the funding got better.

My Red Wall Tory MP was a corporate lawyer. That is probably the most polite thing I can say about him.

I had a bit of respect for Greening. She was in the wrong party, but seemed genuine about social mobility and actually listened to the profession. That was part of her problem, it appeared she did very little for 18 months or so and was sacked just as some of her policies were starting to have some effect.  I was going to say something about her going to a comprehensive school, but given Williamson did, I'll stop there.

Mine said he voted against FSM's being provided during the October have term, because they would be "sold or traded for drugs" He went on to clarify that he wasn't talking about vouchers, but the actual food parcels. 
 

Was that Brendan Clarke-Smith? The only former teacher in the group of red wall MPs, he taught RE in an international school in Romania.

Mark Jenkinson (former UKIP). He sent Mrs J a thank you letter for her charity work. After those comments, she sent it back with her own letter pointing out that 40 years ago she would have been in one of those families not getting food parcels.

I've just googled the subject for an up to date figure (as of 2019), and figures have changed.

Teachers are now third in number, behind the legal profession and what I would refer to as "politicos" - that is lobbyists, researchers, Trades Unionists* and such ilk.

(*- Mainly Trades Union Office bods, NOT someone who works at a job but becomes the Shop Steward unfortunately).

Mind you, this doesn't augur well for capability in the House, after all pretty well every one of them has no knowledge of the real world their constituents actually live in.