UKC

At the risk of folk kicking off see if anyone can settle a debate I’ve had with a few mates. If you make a summer ascent of something that’s also a winter route does that blow the winter onsight? I’m of the opinion that it definitely does because you know where to dig for gear when winter comes and the general condition of turf/hooks, my mates mostly disagree saying a summer ascent is a summer ascent and should have no bearing on winter ascents. Thoughts?

If you've spotted a bit of frost on one of the holds and declared it 'in', then you're right. Otherwise...hmm.

No self respecting winter climber would give  **** about this.......just not on the radar.  At all.

depends how much gear you pre place for the winter ascent. 

I would suggest that your mates are honest with themselves, of course it makes a difference to a true winter onsight , if you are really bothered about it.

Conversely , I always found it interesting to do a summer ascent after a winter one  on mixed buttress routes. Don't ask me to do any of the Ben gullies in summer.

Msybe. Maybe not. Though there is no doubt that the knowledge gained from a summer ascent might greatly ease a winter ascent in some cases.

It can’t be an onsight if you’ve climbed the route before as you have first hand prior knowledge but as long as you’re honest about it, it really doesn’t matter. 

Are your mates climbing X10? If not, it really doesn't matter. 

Depends on conditions I suppose. If your route of choice has poor snow and ice coverage then that definitely is an advantage. If it's iced to buggery, all the cracks are full and you have spindrift battering you I don't think it would make much of a difference if you'd climbed it in summer!

I've repeated trad routes and forgotten where most of the gear goes!! 😂

Tower ridge - defo blowing the onsight.

Point Five Gulley - less so.

Deep inside you know it's wrong though, it'll gnaw away at you in your quieter moments. Think 'what would Mark Twight do'...

I hadn't realised the "onsight" was a thing with winter routes.  It seems a little nonsensical IMO as winter routes can change dramatically within a few days.  You may not even see the protection you know is there let alone use it. 

Al

For me the concept of an "onsight" is only really relevant to single pitches. It's not something I really consider on mountain routes, and definitely not on something that is basically an Alpine ridge like Tower Ridge.

Other opinions are available.

In my view it definitely makes a difference. After not getting on much last winter in Scotland I am desperate to have a go at Sioux Wall on the Ben when it's in. It will be a stretch for me, but I've done it in summer and I know how good the wires are when the going gets tough.

You can't blow the onsight because that was the first time you did it, you are just climbing the route again in different conditions!

This.

If or when I finally do Citadel in winter I will not feel that my summer recce ascent has diminished it in any way.

You "onsight" a route not a pitch. I don't think whether it is a mountain route really sets the context (especially in the UK).

I think when clean tactics go out of the window i.e. French free is considered 'in' you might start considering onsights as irrelevant also.

Tower Ridge being alpine is a bit of a stretch though I would say.

But do you feel that you gained knowledge from your summer ascent which will be useful to you in winter? 

But people freeing big routes on El Cap and so on talk about onsighting some pitches and having to work others. You can clearly onsight individual pitches of a route.

FTFY

Err, yes, that's the whole point of a recce.  

But back to the question the OP asked…

I’d argue the knowledge gained climbing a route in summer generally would make a winter ascent way less intimidating. And thus the style is different to someone turning up and doing it in winter with no prior experience of the route. 

In climbing we have long had specific terms for this sort of thing. An onsight ascent being the purest and purer than an ascent after a recce in summer. 

Not that anyone gives a shit.

I think I remember hearing that a leading winter climber had avoided a classic summer route (or two) on the Shelterstone (or maybe it was Lochnagar) in order to preserve an winter onsight, but I may be mistaken.

I wouldn't be surprised. Not just along the lines of 'saving the onsight', but you could argue it may well be a more fulfilling experience if you haven't covered the ground before.

I think if you’ve done a route in winter you get a good idea of where it goes, what the gear and the belays are like (recognising that some gear won’t be available in winter - but at least you have an idea of what it’s like and where some crucial piece might be). So it’s less intimidating / serious. It could be a nice way to do a hard winter ascent. Not pure onsight but as long as you’re honest about it it’s not a big deal.

Probably the only route I’ve done in summer which I might consider in winter is Centurion. Having an idea of what the route is like would certainly help.

It could also be interesting to see what a route is like in winter after doing it in summer, or vice verse. 

Back when I started Scottish winter climbing my older friends told me that the leading activists would climb summer routes with a packet of grass seeds in their pocket - to sprinkle onto ledges and prepare the turf for their winter ascent.  This little known secret remains true to this day. 

I've heard of rags or sponges being placed in cracks to hold water, freeze and provide hooks but I've got no idea if it ever actually happened.

Yup, when roped climbing, the defining factor is one rope length or pitch. You either manage to onsight it or not. If you climb a multipitch route, say on El Cap and you Onsight all but one pitch (which went 3rd go), you did not manage to onsight the whole route. I recall the late Swiss Machine got really close on Freerider during his honeymoon, but ultimately fell on the crux pitch and go it clean second go. So no OS for Ueli for Freerider.

Ondra got close on Salathe, but same deal.. albeit Ondra tried to OS Salathe in 24h...

I might be mistaken, but I do think on El Cap proper, no route has been Onsighted. Flashed, yes by Pete Whittaker... BUT (albeit now yer all gonna get me) for a flash, I'd say you need to get all the pitches clean first go... if you climb variant A and fall... that's it. Even if you then manage to flash variant B . Note that Teflon Corner and The Move are completely separate pitches, so in all honestly they should be two different lines --> Freerider Move and Freerider Telfon ...

What about pre-placed mars bars?

my thoughts? 

That's no topic for the Internet mate!!!!

That requires beer and face to face....