Hi,
I'm looking for a jacket for the Scottish winter and have heard good things about the ME Fitzroy. I have a ME shell and love the fit but would also like to compare it against offerings from other brands, particularly Arcteryx.
Do you have any suggestions of similar jackets?
Cheers
The Montane flux is very similar to the Fitzroy, Rab also do an equivalent (the Photon x I think?). It depends how easily you get cold, I went for the ME Citadel (a step up from the Fitzroy) for Scottish winter, as I didn't find the Fitzroy anywhere near warm enough when stood still on cold winter belays. I still use the Fitzroy for autumn and early spring cragging, or as a 3 season warm layer in the mountains, but for when it's cold, the citadel is the one, feels so good just throwing it on over the top of everything else.
Usually if a jacket's warm enough, it's big and bulky, hanging off harness, though doesn't matter if you climb with a pack. If the pitch takes hours to lead, would be more awkward leading wearing this pig!
The second could either carry this pack, or even trash your £250+ jaiket, as you look down shivering.
Something light, cheap, less obtrusive hanging from harness, is better than nothing. Then once you clip into belay, throw it on saving as much heat as you can from leading.
Don't know how bulky a Montane Ground Control is, looks similar to Fitzroy, £107 online Blacks currently!
Stuart
I have an Arcteryx Nucleai, that I really like. it’s light, can be compact, is pretty warm but the face fabric is no tough. It’s ok but not invincible.
I have a Rab Photon X but I’m not so keen on that - too baggy and not so warm.
I also have an ME Citadel. I love that. It’s no proof but is massively bulky. Great for winter bouldering but I wouldn’t want to carry on a winter route.
ME Fitzroy I find the best as long as I pair it up with the correct layers, merino base with a good grid midlayer. I have the thicker Montane Spitfire that is a virtual copy of the Citadel but I find it too big and heavy. I also run very cold.
I reviewed the ME Citadel quite some time back - https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/clothing/synthetic_insulation/mountain_equi... it was a bloody amazing jacket at keeping you warm in proper horrible weather but I thought slightly over engineered for a belay jacket making it a bit heavier and bulkier than necessary and a fit faffy to use. I believe the Fitzroy is a simpler design which is an advantage, but obviously won't keep you as warm with less insulation. I still use a decade old Rab Photon Hoody (see https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/clothing/synthetic_insulation/rab_clothing_... ) which I believe was very similar to the Fitzroy, it is a great but on really long belays in wild weather the extra insulation of heavier jackets is appreciated. I have 20 year old Patagonia DAS parka which still is still the benchmark for belay jackets to me. Patagonia have them in their line up again, including IIRC a lighter version which might be worth consider at least.
For UK winter climbing in recent years I've been doing quite well using various down jackets I've been reviewing as belay jackets. You can get a lot of warmth for less weight and I've never had problems with them getting soaked in one day use - but of course understanding that potential issue is there is important. I do think though modern weather forecasting really helps out deciding whether you can save weight and bring a down jacket or not.
> Usually if a jacket's warm enough, it's big and bulky, hanging off harness, though doesn't matter if you climb with a pack. If the pitch takes hours to lead, would be more awkward leading wearing this pig!
When we're not carrying full sacks (which is most winter routes for me) I carry my belay jacket along with a few other bits and bobs in one of these: https://rockrun.com/products/exped-splash-15
I hardly notice it's there and it's way less obtrusive than having it dangling off the harness. I find it a good compromise between the lightness/freedom of not carrying a sack and the comfort/reassurance of having the belay jacket, head torch, a bit of scran etc.
That Exped sack is great idea Dave! I think I'm going to have to buy one for myself...
Hi Dave,
You climb with a rope gun, does he have a wee bag too or still shove it down back of his jacket?
I can get jacket and belay mitts into a wee dry bag, for full body contact and gymnastic movement....
Stuart
I don't think the Fitzroy is really a winter weight belay jacket. I've written a bit about it here: https://www.straightupadventures.co.uk/winter-clothing but the tl:dr is that 60gsm of insulation isn't enough for Scottish winter when you are standing still for an hour or more at a time.
Perhaps if you only climb on good weather days and move quickly etc then you can get away with a lighter layer.
I've got a Rab Photon X which is a good weight, and previously used a ME Citadel which I would also recommend.
The Fitzroy is 120gsm in the body and 80gsm in the sleeves, not 60gsm.
> Hi Dave,
> You climb with a rope gun, does he have a wee bag too or still shove it down back of his jacket?
He's gone the way of the wee bag too.
I take it back, they must have beefed it up since I last owned one. But still, not thick enough for me.
> That Exped sack is great idea Dave! I think I'm going to have to buy one for myself...
Works a treat. I pack it the night before with food, belay mitts and jacket then put my climbing layers in on top. When I get to the corrie I change into the climbing layers, pop my head torch in the wee bag and I'm ready to go.
I’m not sure if you’ve all seen but there’s a new version of the Fitzroy imminent. The outer is to be Gore Infinium but the price is up to £330, so a big jump over the previous version.
https://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/products/fitzroy-jacket
What the OP hasnt told us is what he wants it for. Whether its for routes where the jacket is carried on the harness whilst doing hard tech moves. Or Munroing (given his profile I suspect this is the case apologies if Im wrong) where its worn for lunch stops and just in case emergencies (Rab Nebula pro, Fitzroy, Montane Flux, Alpkit Ohiro or even Katabatic ?) or whether he wants a jacket that could save his life when absolute shit happens and you're waiting for hours in a storm for the MRT to reach you. (Citadel or PHD ) Rab don't seem to be doing any decent super warm synthetic jackets this year
I have a black diamond trail blitz for the same thing - only 12l tho and 85g heavier than the exped.
Inspired by this topic and still painting my front room (Day 3), prior to the forthcoming season!
Decathlon do a 10L 'belay jaiket bag' for £2.99, 45g. Now, I'd still rather have a wee stuff sack hanging from harness, than a pack of sorts impeding my movement.....
Stuart
> Decathlon do a 10L 'belay jaiket bag' for £2.99, 45g. Now, I'd still rather have a wee stuff sack hanging from harness, than a pack of sorts impeding my movement.....
It's a personal preference thing but I find a stuff sack banging around at the back of my harness way more annoying and likely to impede than the exped bag. Even in chimneys I rarely if ever notice it.
> Don't know how bulky a Montane Ground Control is, looks similar to Fitzroy, £107 online Blacks currently!
Cheers for that, just ordered one, been looking around for something warmer than my Nano Puff for winter and that price got me to bite.
To the OP, I've got an Rab Photon X from a few seasons back and I love it, big warm hug of a jacket. Does take up space but I think it's worth it. My partner has the newer one and it has less insulation but he still rates it.
Dave, how do you transport your rack, rope etc? Do you put the small bag in a bigger back and leave that at the bottom of the route to collect on th way back down? Just idly curious...
> Dave, how do you transport your rack, rope etc? Do you put the small bag in a bigger back and leave it at the bottom of the route? Just idly curious...
The wee bag I linked to is just for taking on the route, I carry it all in like everyone else in something about 40l but I almost always leave the big bag at the bottom (or top).
Treated myself to a PHD Epsilon which is 100gsm filling of primaloft gold with a waterproof shell.
Can’t comment on its warmth as I bought it in April but I think it’s going to see a lot of use in the next few months.
Aye, I almost immediately realised I was being a total idiot and of course that was what you did, it was just the bit about throwing your climbing layers in on top that made me think that maybe you went superlight/hardcore on the pack. Sorry, the wee bag. I've just driven from Stornoway to Sheffield and I'm a bit vague.
Curious and realising I only had a down belay jacket for winter, I was about to buy one of those Montane Ground Controls (£125, not £108 sadly), but stopped.
youtube.com/watch?v=2F7oKrRCstk&
Skip to the end he quotes the industrial standard insulation value for all of the top Synthetic insulations.
The stuff in the new Fitzroy (Gold Hi-Loft Cross-Core, ie the stuff with aerogel inside it as wel) is significantly warmer than any other synthetic insulation on the market - better than the primaloft mixed with down blend even. This is also what's in the new Rab Generator Alpine. Main difference is the ME uses Infinium 40d outer, and the Rab 20d pertex and so is about 110g lighter (but maybe less weatherproof?).
From the ratings it goes Gold Crosscore > Gold Down Blend > Silver Down Blend > Gold Luxe > Thermoplume (but this is much worse than gold when wet) > Gold Normal > Coreloft > Silver Active > Gold Active > Silver e.t.c. The difference top to bottom (crosscore to silver) is about double the insulation value / gram.
Only drama is how shit Primaloft is at surving long-term. Swear my last generator alpine just became a lumpy windproof within a year.
> Curious and realising I only had a down belay jacket for winter, I was about to buy one of those Montane Ground Controls (£125, not £108 sadly), but stopped.
There's a coupon code knocking around that gets it down to £108, forgotten exactly what it is I'm afraid, should be easy to find.
Interesting notes on the insulation. I'll not be taking it anywhere too harsh so I'm sure the silver will be fine for my use case.
I really like the Alpkit 0Hiro. Bought it on sale and I was looking for a Fitzroy at the time.
Haven’t used it as intended but heading to Fort William next week in search of crap weather to see how it fairs!
Really impressed with the new Patagonia DAS Parka. A little more expensive than the Fitzroy and Citadel, but should be warmer (more insulation), and has the benefits of Patagonia’s warranty + lifetime free repairs, as well as being recycled/fair trade/1% for the planet.
I’ve not used it in Winter yet, but it’s been great on a few cold nights recently in N. Wales.
The DAS Light is also mind blowingly warm for the weight, but a bit too light for a Scottish Winter belay jacket. Excellent as a warmer mid layer, or lighter belay jacket though for the rest of the year.
> Haven’t used it as intended but heading to Fort William next week in search of crap weather to see how it fairs!
I've been staring at the Ben Nevis and Cairn Gorm summit forecasts a lot as well recently, deciding whether to go up for a couple of days next week. I was hoping maybe for a first snowy scramble of the year, Fiacall Ridge for example or maybe the Ledge Route, but so far its looking the wrong type of crappy weather!
MWIS have just posted on facebook that the weather radar is showing snow falling across the Cairngorms right now:
https://www.facebook.com/MountainWeatherInformationService/
Plus the app I developed has been forecasting a handful of routes coming into reasonable condition on Friday too:
https://www.winterclimbingforecasts.co.uk/
All gone by Saturday though!
I don't rate the Fitzroy, in my experience it simply is not warm enough. I am not a coldie, but it falls a very long way short of things such as Patagonia's DAS parka.
Tried lots (Fitzroy, citadel, montane flux/ground control, arc nuclei & kappa, DAS).
my thoughts fwiw:
-Fitzroy type weight ~100gsm: good for quick climbing but not enough for proper long Scottish belays.
-Citadel type weight ~200gsm: best for long belays & poor weather. DAS my favourite but new Arc Nuclei SV looks better (has a button on the bottom so you can close it round your belay device and keep heat in on a windy day-ive modded my jackets thst don’t have it).
-any small cheap 15-20l sack to carry jckt/headtorch/good works best for climbing for me (as per DaveHK et al).
Having just bought the Fitzroy... I'll now have to bulk up based on your comments 😉
Good shout Dave et al on the small bag. I hate hanging belay jackets etc off my harness.
😂you’ll definitely need a big puffy being a slim Jim! Less integral insulation!
Genuinely interested in the reason for the dislikes of my comment? Happy to be proven wrong about the Fitzroy/Citadel vs DAS.
No idea. However, the Citadel has more insulation than the DAS which only has a little more than the Fitzroy?
I keep flirting with Patagonia but the fit (on me) in rubbish compared to ME. I'm a perfect ME large but am between M&L in Patagonia. Very frustrating!
I thought the DAS had more in the core, but the Patagonia website is a little confusing.
DAS - 133g all over + 40g extra in the core
Fitzroy - 120g body, 80g sleeves + hood
Citadel - 160g body + sleeves, 80g in hood
Citadel and DAS are actually more similar than I thought, with the DAS having a little more in the core, and Citadel having more in the sleeves.
Shame you’re between sizes. I find the DAS/DAS Light larger than other Patagonia jackets, which makes sense given their intended use!
PHD Zeta.
Pretty darn expensive but when you're stood on belay for hours at a time in the Scottish winter it's money well spent.
After purchasing mine I kicked myself for suffering inferior jackets for so long
Lots been said on here MJ, unfortunately you can't buy the new Fitzroy or Citadel as ME said in an email to me it will be late Nov or Dec, before you can buy it (although you can see it is on the website).
And yes it much more expensive, but there is an opportunity to make a good deal on the old models? You could save a good wedge there. Personally for the difference in money and special I would pay the extra for the Citadel. I see Dave McLeod was wearing it in his latest video, don't know they are taking so long to get it out to us mere mortals.
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