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Report of an accident at Bram Crag Quarry with picture of bolt in a block that came off.
Incident 60 https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100064748134264
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In reply to Jim Lancs:
That ain't good... the MRT report suggests he hit the ground from 10 mtrs up after the block pulled. I've never climbed there, but that sounds odd - are the first bolts really high or something? I guess it would have to be the second bolt that was in the block that pulled to go 10 mtrs.
Best wishes to the injured party - hope he or she makes a swift and full recovery!
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In reply to Jim Lancs:
Was it the third bolt on Middle Earth?
I backed off that route in 2016 because the crux was protected by a bolt in suspect rock (see my logbook comments). It seemed like a small block on the edge of an overhang with cracks all round which l didn't fancy testing - I was very sketchy on the move on TR. I never returned to Bram. If it is the same bolt I backed away from I'm surprised it's taken until now to come off. I wonder if the bolt had ever actually held a fall...
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/bram_crag_quarry-441/middle_earth-...
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In reply to JLS:
I should add...
Having done some bolting myself, I some sympathy for the bolter as well as the climber who has unfortunately hurt themselves. Bolting is not an exact science and for historical reasons sport climbing venues are regularly furnished with less than ideal rock to begin with. While equippers do their human best, we must all understand bolts will occasionally fail for one reason or another and climbing on bolts should never be considered entirely risk free.
Best wishes to the injured party.
Post edited at 11:13
45
In reply to TobyA:
Loose blocks can fall and cut the rope. This happened to friend.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2010/09/fatal_accident_on_portland-58015
In reply to JLS:
From comments in the log books it was the 2nd bolt on Middle Earth.
Post edited at 11:33
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In reply to petegunn:
Yeah, I saw that. I'm curious if that is miscounting on my part or miscounting in that report but obliviously is might just be the second bolt was no better than the third I was concerned by.
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In reply to Jim Lancs:
Bram is inherently very loose in places but the bolting and clearance of loose materials has been done very well.
Nevertheless, it is still a potentially dangerous place. A three-foot spear of rock came towards me once, I stepped three feet to the right and it embedded itself in the grass. That was in the area where a guy nearly lost a finger a few years back (the most popular part).
I have climbed there since before it was bolted (wild) and thereafter.
Take care,
DC
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In reply to TobyA:
>"I've never climbed there, but that sounds odd"
My memory is a bit hazy but from pictures it looks like there is a bit of a scramble to get to the proper climbing.
Reading back the comments on the route's history it seems that the route has shed a fair bit of rock over the years. It could be that the bolts were place in sound rock that has gradually become undermined over time.
Post edited at 11:52
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In reply to JLS:
I think the first bolt is shared with Michelangelo, and it looks like the second bolt ( third in total) on Middle Earth, is the one that failed.
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In reply to tmawer:
The bolt hasn't failed at all, it's still firmly planted in the rock it was placed in. It's the rock that's failed!
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In reply to JLS:
Yes it is, but if it was a route I'd bolted I'd want that distinction made.
Bolt failed means there something wrong with the bolt or how it was placed. Block came loose and fell is something different.
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In reply to Iamgregp:
>
> Bolt failed means there something wrong with ... how it was placed.
Yeah I'd say that pretty much sums it up!
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In reply to Mowglee:
Yeah but predicting how the rock face will change over time, which cracks will widen, which blocks will eventually work themselves loose etc is extremely difficult and arguable impossible to be 100% on.
Using the correct drill bit, bolt, hanger, adhesive and drilling technique is a little easier.
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In reply to Iamgregp:
>"Yeah but predicting how the rock face will change over time, which cracks will widen, which blocks will eventually work themselves loose etc is extremely difficult and arguable impossible to be 100% on."
Perhaps not relevant in this instance but I don't think bolters can be completely free from criticism if they make a poor choice of bolt location. We all make mistakes. Equally you can't absolve yourself by blaming a bolters poor choice if you then clip the bolt and processed...
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In reply to JLS:
I didn’t say they weren’t. I said the bolt hasn’t failed. End of point.
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In reply to Jim Lancs:
With respect to Colin Downer for putting up the routes and developing the venue, IMHO the bolting here is pretty shoddy. The use of expansion bolts over resins (like those available from the Cumbria bolt fund) has led to a reduced lifetime and galvanic corrosion is present on many bolts on many routes. The bolt location seems very random (although this could be to avoid bolting in poor rock), to the point that it is often really difficult to work out the lines. Many are placed where clipping is tricky unless you are of a CDowneresque stature. All things equal though, the loose rock probably still represents the greatest danger here...........................for the moment.
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In reply to Jim Lancs:
If you see a dodgy bolt, a worn lower off or think one of the routes is seriously dangerous due to the existing placement of bolts please report it to the local BMC rep or the Cumbria Bolt Fund. I reported some badly worn lower offs (50% worn through) at Bram and they were replaced within a few days. Don't top rope through the lower offs - use your own screw gate. The easier routes on Centre Parc area need more bolts! A BIG rockfall at Bram is likely at some point so however well the routes are maintained its only a matter of time before there is a worse accident.
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In reply to Iamgregp:
> Bolt failed means there something wrong with the bolt or how it was placed. Block came loose and fell is something different.
Hmmm. Not sure I entirely agree with you here. Fairy nuff, in mitigation, it may have originally looked bonza and then grown a few cracks, but .....
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In reply to Chris Reid:
>”The use of expansion bolts over resins”
Having re-equipped a few routes with resin bolts I used to be very evangelical about the “all new routes should be resin” however it’s easy to place resin when you have an old bolt to hold you in position. For new route-ing it all gets very much more complicated when you can’t instantly use the previous placed bolt to help position yourself to place the next.
Obviously, nothing is impossible given enough effort but sometimes resin just isn’t a practical proposition and you have to compromise.
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In reply to Jim Lancs:
The reality is that Bram is not a soft and particularly safe sport climbing venue. Bolts are reasonably widely spaced. The rock is sharp, with awkward angles and lots of ledges. There's some loose rock. The lower grade routes in particular feel like there are bolts at the cruxy moves but then you need to go a bit on slightly easier ground to get the next bolt, which can be quite committing for people without a few grades in hand. There are places where you really wouldn't want to fall off. Even without a bolt/rock failure, it's somewhere you need to have your whits about you.
The development has revealed a huge amount of climbable rock vs. the thin protected bold trad routes that predated it. It has changed the kind of climber using the place and it's often cited as a good place for new to outdoors folks looking for 'bolt protected routes in the lakes'.
In my opinion, the easier routes are effectively bolt-protected trad. If it's going to be a sport venue and widely used, it should have more bolts.
Warton Main upper tier is similar. 2nd bolts in a dangerous ground fall position.
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In reply to Chris Reid:
> With respect to Colin Downer for putting up the routes and developing the venue, IMHO the bolting here is pretty shoddy. The use of expansion bolts over resins (like those available from the Cumbria bolt fund) has led to a reduced lifetime and galvanic corrosion is present on many bolts on many routes. The bolt location seems very random (although this could be to avoid bolting in poor rock), to the point that it is often really difficult to work out the lines. Many are placed where clipping is tricky unless you are of a CDowneresque stature. All things equal though, the loose rock probably still represents the greatest danger here...........................for the moment.
In defence of Colin , I am fairly sure that all the bolts he placed were stainless through bolts. There are quite a few bolts left from before Col became obsessed with the place, a lot of these were not SS.
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In reply to sbc23:
> The reality is that Bram is not a soft and particularly safe sport climbing venue. Bolts are reasonably widely spaced. The rock is sharp, with awkward angles and lots of ledges. There's some loose rock. The lower grade routes in particular feel like there are bolts at the cruxy moves but then you need to go a bit on slightly easier ground to get the next bolt, which can be quite committing for people without a few grades in hand. There are places where you really wouldn't want to fall off. Even without a bolt/rock failure, it's somewhere you need to have your whits about you.
> The development has revealed a huge amount of climbable rock vs. the thin protected bold trad routes that predated it. It has changed the kind of climber using the place and it's often cited as a good place for new to outdoors folks looking for 'bolt protected routes in the lakes'.
> In my opinion, the easier routes are effectively bolt-protected trad. If it's going to be a sport venue and widely used, it should have more bolts.
This ^ pretty much puts in to words what I feel about bram . I’ve climbed there a lot and after initial trepidation got to really like it , but there is a big BUT , it needs to be treated as a trad crag .
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In reply to JLS:
> >”The use of expansion bolts over resins”
> Having re-equipped a few routes with resin bolts I used to be very evangelical about the “all new routes should be resin” however it’s easy to place resin when you have an old bolt to hold you in position. For new route-ing it all gets very much more complicated when you can’t instantly use the previous placed bolt to help position yourself to place the next.
> Obviously, nothing is impossible given enough effort but sometimes resin just isn’t a practical proposition and you have to compromise.
I disagree. Please tell me that people aren't still placing expansion bolts in West Scotland? This is 2023, not 1990, we've moved on surely.
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In reply to Ean T:
>”Please tell me that people aren't still placing expansion bolts in West Scotland?”
Well I certainly have. It may be a mistake. If so, I apologise to whoever is replacing them in 2050.
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In reply to Ean T:
Hi Ian
What’s the issue with placing 12mm stainless steel bolts please? I understand that Neil Shepherd’s original expansion bolts at The Camel were non-stainless with stainless steel hangers - not ideal.
I often see non-stainless nuts on routes at Weem - look dodgy, but probably still OK, though again not obviously ideal or best practice.
I’m planning on bolting/retro-bolting a few things around Lochaber in the autumn. Currently have a bunch of stainless 12mm expansions bolts - is this really such a bad idea!? Are folk using Titanium resin bolts - I know they’re a fair bit more expensive, but not too bothered by that. Up to now have been installing 12mm stainless expansion bolts for abseil anchors, as was wanting to abseil directly from them, as opposed to waiting for the resin to set. Happy to listen to any advice/suggestions…
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In reply to Jim Lancs:
Posted on Lakes group social media…
Just to state the obvious and suggest the route and rock around 'Middle Earth' at Bramcrag is best avoided, fell onto the 3rd bolt yesterday which came with me along with a small boulder. Happy to be alive and walking about this morning- huge huge thank you to the brilliant Keswick Mountain Rescue Team for getting me out of there so quickly and safely.
(If anyone happens to pick up a black DMM quickdraw with gold biner that's still on the first bolt its return would be greatly appreciated 🙏)
Thankfully, sounds like the injured climber is walking wounded. Hopefully a sign a quick recovery is now under way.
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In reply to Gary Latter:
A quality stainless steel glue-in (or titanium if cost isn't an obstacle) paired with a good resin will have a longer life than expansions. Especially in the lovely climate of the west coast.
I think we owe it to future climbers to place the best quality kit we can.
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In reply to Ean T:
> A quality stainless steel glue-in (or titanium if cost isn't an obstacle) paired with a good resin will have a longer life than expansions. Especially in the lovely climate of the west coast.
> I think we owe it to future climbers to place the best quality kit we can.
Fair comment but it's actually more complicated.
Rock is a natural material with potentially unknown flaws of varying structural importance.
Manufactured products, bolts, glue ins,hangers, are hopefully sourced from producers with good quality control procedures but statistically there will always be some failures. Nothing is perfect.
Modern resins are predicted to last years but this is just a forecast, we will actually find out if true , eventually.
Most bolt quality actually rests with the placer. Geological, mechanical engineering, practical diy / craftsperson skills and knowledge and patience to prepare drilled holes for a good resin bond, along with route setting skills in choosing an appropriate bolt position are a big ask in one person.
In an ideal world, bolt funds would have sufficient to procure quality fittings and carry out regular testing and inspection. I think we are a long way from that situation.
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In reply to Rick Graham:
I agree with everything you say, but that doesn't negate my opinion that we should be placing the best quality kit we can.
The reason people place expansion bolts is it's easier and cheaper.
Post edited at 11:09
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In reply to Ean T:
> The reason people place expansion bolts is it's easier and cheaper.
Don’t think that’s the case - yes, easier, but certainly not cheaper. But I was purchasing set of 20 Petzl expansion bolts & hangers from a local retailer. Still worked out around a tenner a bolt, even with a decent discount!
Some of those small stainless steel glue-ins must work out substantially cheaper than that; especially the home-made ones!
But of course, I’m just a newbie when it comes to bolting though. Anyway, don’t think I’ll be around in 30 years time… haha
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In reply to Gary Latter:
They saw you coming, you could have got titanium for that price.
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In reply to Ean T:
> They saw you coming, you could have got titanium for that price.
haha - how about titanium expansion bolts… and pegs for my se-cliff project at Reiff…
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