UKC

Hi,  I hope to tap into the forms vast knowledge.

Having become increasingly fed up with my daily grind I am considering giving it all up and entering the world of outdoor activities for employment. Mixing my love for the hills with work doing mountain biking guiding and rock climbing instruction, eventually working up to mountain leader. It's something I have been considering for a long time but have always been hesitant to make the leap across into the sector.

If anyone could give me any insight to the following:

Positives and negatives. I'm not going to give any indication to what my perception is of these to get non bias answers.

Running costs. Obviously the big one here is insurance which I have no idea of the costs incurred, general memberships and enrolment seems very clear but what other costs should be allowed for.

Income. I'm not expecting to be a millionaire off the back of this and expect to take a pay cut from my current salary but would hopefully be getting a better work/life balance and job satisfaction, along with being outdoors. Any insight on to possible earnings  net, after deductions and expenses vs how many hours/day for the return.

Qualifications. I'd be looking to do my RCI then the rock climing development instructor after that. The course and assessments seem straight forward amd I feel comfortable I could demonstrate everything needed, however they state you need to have assisted with other instructors to meet criteria. How is this achieved? Do you volunteer with qualified instructors?

Frequency if work. Is there a demand in the industry for more instructors and does it have the capacity to provide enough work to make a living wage if I put the work in to develop the skills and business?

All feedback will be welcomed. Thanks in advance. ON BELAY! 

In reply to Part-time-climb:

I did this video, can’t remember if its  any good and its a couple of years old so day rates etc are a little higher now.

https://youtu.be/g6NFVchX5jk?si=VHU5_M_1klzuoPjV
 

In reply to Part-time-climb:

Misha of this parish described his preparation for the exams/assessments in 2 good articles:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/series/british_mountain_guide_sc...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/series/british_mountain_guide/tr...

In reply to Part-time-climb:

I am going through this process at the moment.

In the past year I have passed CWI, CWIA, CWDI

Done RCI training and have assessment booked later this year.

I have a nice part time job in my local indoor wall, I really enjoy that, mainly working with absolute beginner climbers, it's great to see them improve.

I have found a couple of local companies who are happy for me to shadow their outdoor sessions as well so that's helping with the RCI consolidation and I am hoping they like what they see enough to offer employment once the RCI is passed.

i am already self employed and my coaching insurance is relatively inexpensive 

I am very happy. If you want to chat about this in more detail just drop me a message.

Mini

In reply to McHeath:

This is for the British Mountain guide qualification which is like a masters degree vs a GCSE - it's vastly more comprehensive than what the OP is talking about and just the pre-reqs requires years of experience let alone entering the scheme, the training which is 3 years min and then the exams... RCI and RCDI are much more straighforward and don't require the high level of climbing ability to enter - but Jez above can tell you anything you could ever need to know about it...

In reply to Part-time-climb: one thing to consider is that people skills will be as least as important as technical skills to make a go of it

In reply to Part-time-climb:

I looked into it a decade or so ago, purely with the idea of going the climbing instructor route (I was working as an instructor at an indoor wall at the time), so not very current information but I'm not convinced it's changed that much.

My conclusion at the time was that the daily rate looked nice enough but after you started factoring in paperwork time, driving time, fuel, equipment and all the other expenses, it started to look like a pretty mediocre income. And it is important to couple that with the risks - if you work as an employee, you have sickness/injury benefit, days off, you don't have to worry about whether you will find enough clients, etc. etc. All these are risks when working for yourself. These things also add to your stress level when working for yourself - every thing every day is another thing you feel like you have to do perfectly or it will negatively impact the future viability of the business. Another worry for me was whether it would poison something I love - there are going to be plenty of days where the weather is bad and you have children who just don't want to be there...

I do run my own business now. Never underestimate how much work it is running your own business. Every problem requires you to solve it and there will be loads and loads of them to start with, things you have no idea how to solve will randomly pop up and will necessitate hours of e-mail/telephone/internet trawling to find the solution for each one. Government agencies you've never heard of will materialise from thin air (actually, more in a paper form) and every one of them will want a) money and b) to add to the endless bull**** paperwork/online form filling you have to do.

It seems like there are two options to mitigate some of the above:

1) Do contract work for an outdoors activity employer - you can work a season, find out if it's something you love and all the running-a-business issues vanish - no managing, minimal paperwork, no acquiring clients, etc. etc. But obviously you don't get to be your own boss and your pay might 

2) Employ multiple instructors to work for your own business/activity centre - the stress, paperwork and client-finding worries go through the roof but you gain a much healthier income stream. Realistically though you probably have to build up your own business first for at least a year before you can commit to something as big as employing someone.

Yet another thing to consider is what you are going to do as you get older. Outdoor instructing is great when you are young, have boundless energy and few financial worries. It might not be so great when your body starts to age and/or you find yourself in need of job security for supporting a family.

When I started my new business 2 years ago, I kept a foot in the door of my old job by keeping up with professional membership dues and that functions very nicely as a fallback option - it's always good to keep a fallback open, if you can, when starting something new in job terms.

In reply to henwardian:

Jesus that was a depressing read...

In reply to Part-time-climb:

Back in the late 70’s I naively thought that becoming an instructor would be the way to go so that I could climb almost full time. However I found that this wasn’t the case and after an initial honeymoon period I found it quite arduous and I got to a point when I didn’t feel like going climbing in my own times at the weekend. I gave it up after a couple of months and found my mojo again.

In reply to Part-time-climb:

Totally agree with Henwardians comments. Exactly my thoughts as someone who was a climbing instructor for about 7 years.

My personal climbing grade rocketed when I stopped teaching it.

In reply to henwardian:

I feel like I should say why I found it a depressing read rather than just be down on it. 

So like you, I've run my own business for going on 20 years now, contracting engineering design services. Is it a pain, yes of course it is, do you have to think of everything, maybe, are clients a pain in the bum, sometimes. 

But, clients are also sometimes nice, and it can be rewarding to render a service to them effectively. In some businesses the admin isn't so great - by and large my paper work is quite limited. The work can be sporadic, but you can use that time to do what you please IF you're not totally focused on the stress of not earning money. Clients sometimes refer you on, so sometimes work isn't that hard to find. Would it poison your climbing? Well that depends on the reason you are teaching - are you doing it because you want to make money from climbing or are you doing it to pass on what you know and enable others to enjoy it as much as you do? 

Getting old and creaky? I am damned sure that you get even more old and creaky sitting at a desk, barely moving 9-5 Mon-Fri. Is a physical job going to take its toll, sure it is, at the same time you will see less muscle loss and benefit from everything which comes with a healthier life style. 

I suppose the reason I felt depressed reading what you wrote is that any job can seem unworthy, but having spent 20 years signing away ideas, dealing with the clients who AREN'T pleasant, and rarely getting paid what I should, I've realised that it's worth doing something which isn't just about paying the bills, but seeing the look on peoples faces as they learn and enjoy what you're doing with them...

In reply to Part-time-climb:

The first question you need to answer is do you love teaching people, because fundamentally that's what you will be. Yes, you will be outside, in the mountains, at a crag but you will not be climbing for you, but teaching someone lese. If you don't enjoy the teaching part you won't last long!

Also, I would imagine you'll need to be an MCI to earn a decent living so make sure you like walking as well as climbing. The more strings to your bow (you mentioned mountain biking, what about paddling too?) the better your chances.

In reply to beardy mike:

He’s correct. Unless you diversify with a guiding quali. you’ll never earn a lot, but maybe just enough. Factor in injury, bad weather and climate change, it looks even less enticing. And a Pension? We all grow old, as I’m now finding out. It’s a lifestyle choice. It’s why I never wanted to be a 60y/o guide. But I do know plenty of guides who’ve enjoyed it done well, but most had other income streams. AMI et al etc ; not so sure about that and yet more and more qualify, far outstripping demand, not to mention the ever more ridiculous qualis. being thought up by mountain training. There’s a reason the guides split from them and the BMC.

In reply to Philb1950:

I don't see that in real life. Good instructors / guides are all busy, assuming they can market themselves, make contacts etc. The work won't fall in their laps but it's there to be had.

In reply to Philb1950:

I think where we are disagreeing is that there is an automatic assumption that you are going to do better by NOT being involved with instruction. I have no idea how Henwardians business is going, only my own. Contract engineering can be a very tough environment indeed with sometimes long off periods, lots of competition, a presumption to lower prices, shorter timescales and improved performance. Nearly always. To assume that instructing is going to be less rewarding than that is clearly bonkers. Maybe you've just tired of a job, just like I've tired of mine. We should swap...

In reply to Part-time-climb:

I'm a freelancer, been doing it 14 years and love it. Climbing is probably the lowest percentage of my work, and even at that it's often kids abseil sessions or climbing wall work. 

I get most of my work from my ML, and a lot of general multi-activity work at centers. 

I have languages to a high level, this gives me a VERY constant income stream over the summer doing guided walking holidays. 

Almost any self employed/ freelance instructor has a quiet period over winter. You need to know how you will see that through. I used to do ski seasons or shop work. Latterly I did some care work. This year we are in a new area, so don't know yet what I will do. My husband has a "normal" job, so there is always a steady income stream .

Don't do it due to your love of climbing, do it because you love being with people (including ones you wouldn't choose to socialize with). It is, first and foremost, a people job. 

In reply to Part-time-climb:

I currently work at a bouldering wall but have gone and got myself a CWDI and RCI off my own back.

Working 4 days a week gives me time to take on 'extra work', I really enjoy doing it and on my terms too. My aim this year was to earn enough to cover the cost of the courses and the insurance which I've done in ~2 months. I charge by hour and not by person.

I have picked up clients through word of mouth, Instagram and doing learn to belay then onto learn to lead.

It may be worth reaching out to some local walls as a freelancer and see if you really do enjoy the work before you commit. It'll also give your 'brand' some reach and access to potential clients. 

The mountain training website has loads of workshops from aspiring guides who need clients, I found these useful and also made contacts in the industry and maybe some work. 

I don't think I'll ever earn enough to quit my job and I'm not keen on running kids party top rope sessions but it's really satisfying when people you've taught years ago tell you about their trips abroad or when a kid gets a podium at YCS. 

Hope this helps, good luck.

In reply to Part-time-climb:

My views sit along with the more positive ones here, it's 20 plus years now since i did my mountain instructor. The key thing is you have to enjoy being outdoors in the hills end of, you'll spend most of your time on low grade rock, scrambles and teaching basic hill craft. Don't for a second think you'll spend all summer with clients who just want to be led up sun kissed VS/HVS etc..

If you're young and have the grades potential, enjoy skiing, then keep half an eye on the guides route at the same time, and or European ML, it'll broaden your options. 

It's that or be multi disciplined, cave leader, Kayak, Canoe, mtb, rope access etc..

In reply to beardy mike:

Sorry.

By way of an apology, can I suggest you go watch UHF (the movie, not the invisible waves all around us, the latter would be a bit pointless and boring), it is the opposite of depressing

In reply to beardy mike:

Yay! Our posts compliment each other nicely - I point out all the bad things and you point out all the good things, together we achieve a balance!

I was probably overly negative because I was in a mood. But the plus side of that is that if the OP can read my post and think "that doesn't sound too bad", then when they actually start the job, they might be pleasantly surprised

I would actually say I like my job and after a couple of years of doing it, there are fewer and fewer new problems, so I have more and more available time for other things.

Also, it's holiday accommodation, so 99% of my guests are happy and friendly and I very rarely have to deal with people being difficult. I can imagine engineering design services is much different.

Anyway, better mood now because my boulder wall mats arrived this evening, so I'm off to break it in, tara!

In reply to henwardian:

Ha, well as a side line a few years ago I also started an accommodation business and love reading the good comments that are often left. And it's actually one of the things which makes me want to get more involved with facilitating people learning skills. I feel for me it's a next step, and look forward to teaching people who want to be taught, rather than grumpy old men who just want their machine cheaper...

In reply to Part-time-climb:

Technical skill and experience is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a climbing instructor. Instead, a capacity to work in the service of others is. Patience, humility and teaching others because you love it is. 

The above remarks regarding the financial obligations incurred when supporting a family are very pertinent and relevant;  as is the physical wear and tear from repetitive activity and its influence on how you interact with clients. 

In reply to Part-time-climb:

We had an old and not very funny joke. back when in was working in snowsports

whats the difference between a ski instructor, and a 14 inch pizza?

the pizza can feed a family of 4.

there could be a relevance to that here as well.

as noted above, i think the way to gain financial independence in the outdoor industry is with multiple qualifications all adding into the pot.

  

In reply to Part-time-climb:

Have you thought about doing it part time?

I did it full time from age 18-29. But then I had kids and had to grow up so I did a teaching degree.

I’m now a full time SEN teacher who freelances in the holidays and the occasional weekend.

 When I was doing it full time I was kayaking, climbing, ghyll Scrambling, hill walking, sailing, problem solving…. All in education centres with young children. It’s good fun but it’s still a job, and any job can become tedious after a while, and like others have said… you then don’t want to do it for your self after work.

I now have a good balance, and now I’m nearly 40 I choose not to do kayak or single pitch climbing sessions because I bloody hate them!…. I mostly scramble, sail and mnt bike.

In reply to kevin stephens:

I've met a few well known individuals in the industry who's success would suggest otherwise!

In reply to DaveHK:

It can work, but these are the things I would take in consideration.

How do you want to be employed? 

Employee/freelancer (working for someone else)

Pros- No marketing, low costs, can choose work.

Cons- Need to live where the work is, less flexibility (venue + activity choice), earn slightly less as a day rate, can be competitive.

Self employed/Sole Trader (working for yourself)

Pros- Flexibility to run as you please, take home all profits, possible to deploy other staff (potentially make more money).

Cons- Higher costs (insurance, equipment etc...), more responsibility, need good marketing and sales skills, competitive, extended working day (paperwork, marketing etc...).

Where do you live?

If you live somewhere with lots of single pitch crags and climbing walls and a large population catchment (for example the Peak), then you're off to a good start. 

What are your costs?

If you need to earn lots of money, working as a climbing instructor probably isn't the way, unless you are very successful or have a good USP or niche which generates lots of work. RCI typically earn about £130-160 a day as a freelancer currently, MCIs between £160-210. Obviously if you have your own business this could be quite a bit higher.

Some rough costs to get started as a self employed RCI who doesn't employ freelancers.

RCI training and assessment- £420 (based on Jez's prices, good value).

Insurance £190

MTA membership £40

Harness and Helmet X10- £700

2x Dynamic Rope 1x rigging rope- £200

Small Rack + Belay plates £150

Vehicle business insurance £x (sometimes free)

Website- £140 (based on a premium plan that lets you accept payments)

In reply to Part-time-climb:

I've been instructing for 10 years, full time for 5. WMCI qualified and running my own business in Snowdonia in the summer and running Scottish winter course in Jan-March. 

Positives and Negatives: I work with great clients, going to amazing places. I guide lots of classics and a weekend ticklist with a competent client might look like someones dream route list. It's great sharing these experience with people.

It's great taking time off whenever I like, but most of the time I naturally have off most of my friends and partner are at work and vice versa. I usually work weekends. 

If you don't have a winter qualification then year round work can be difficult without another job. 

I'm often knackered from work and don't climb as hard or as much for myself as I did when I had an indoor job at a climbing wall, but cruising around on E1s with clients is still fun. 

I've tried really hard to get good climbing work and clients who want to climb. Walking around teaching nav is fine too, I don't mind the work, but I would rather be climbing. 

Some days the weather is horrible, and you have to go out and put a brave face on it anyway. This is really tiresome especially after 10 days in a row.

I spend a lot of time doing paperwork; advertising, booking documents, answering questions etc. A good day rate is soon eroded when you look at the hours spent unpaid at home working on things.

You are responsible for your own pension, NI, tax return etc. Factor this into your time and costs. If your admin and IT skills aren't great then this will feel like hard work. 

Running Costs: Not huge once your qualified. Professional memberships, insurance, business insurance for your vehicle, websites, advertising (the sky is the limit here), good quality kit, replacements of wires/crabs which clients drop in the sea/get hopelessly stuck etc. I get through two pairs of boots a year - one summer, one winter, a couple of pairs of running shoes, a couple of pairs of comfy climbing shoes, a couple of work ropes, a harness and a helmet and a pair of waterproofs. Winter is especially hard on kit. 

Obviously costs to get qualified are quite high. I've estimated that between the award costs, time off work, kit, travel, accommodation etc all added up that it's probably cost around £30,000 over 10 years getting to the top of the MTA qualifications tree. 

Income: All the prices are on my website and free to look at, starting at £250 for 1:1 guiding and going up for the depending on group size and summer/winter work. I haven't actually done my tax return for the year but it's going to be in the lower tax bracket! Working for others is generally lower. An RCI/ML might be on something like £130 a day in Snowdonia for a mountain day/gorge walk/family climbing session to around £180-230 for Snowdon at night for a charity challenge walking group. 

Qualifications:  Personally I think RCI and RCDI aren't that great in Snowdonia - we have a lot of multipitch and mountaineering work which is out of remit. I will generally employ MCIs if possible to keep options open. I get trainees asking to shadow RCI sessions which I usually turn down as I don't have that much actual RCI work. Emailing course providers in the Peak etc where they have good RCI venues will be a better bet for shadowing sessions. Theres plenty of unpaid ML shadowing in Snowdonia however. I'm also more interested in how good an instructor is than their actual qualification. There are some terrible MCI/WMCIs out there and some fantastic RCDI/MLs who I would rather have work for me. As a small business your reputation is key and I want to employ individuals who will do as good a job as I will. 

Frequency Of Work: If you want to work, there are jobs going most weekends in the summer, plus lots in the summer holidays/easter etc. If you work for a centre or a larger provider then you'll probably be able to get enough to get by. Expect the first year or two to be hard whilst you build up contacts and get to know folk. I found it hard approaching companies cold. 

As mentioned previously, you'll need to think of a plan for the winter. I have friends who work ski seasons as instructors or transfer drivers, do building site labouring, live somewhere cheap on income saved through the summer. I drove non-emergency ambulances for a bit to help with the slow work in autumns past. 

In reply to Alex Riley:

Clearly a slow Saturday for work today, with us self employed instructors all sat at home on UKC! 

In reply to LucaC:

You didn't mention how much you loved driving the emergency ambulances

Edit, yeah pretty much.

In reply to Part-time-climb:

Is it worth it?

Depends why your getting in to it. I got in to it to learn more and kept going.

Currently RCI,CWDI,RCDI,FCA,DCA and looking top do the performance coach, also PT Level 3.

For 9 years I coached independently, running my own youth sessions, outdoor days, in person coaching and remote coaching(usually with americans). Now I'm managing a wall on the side and aiming to build a team to help me continue to do the prior. 

But is it worth, Financially per hour probably not if you compare it to minnimum wage. I find myself never stopping, but thats becasue I enjoy it. I've gained so much from it, made a living, created a community that supported me and my family when I never expected it and so much more. 

If your looking for work, its probably not for you, If your looking to live and breath climbing and supporting others and are able to see it as a lifestyle rather than work. Then it will pay you more than enough plus give you so much more.

Edit:
To add costs,  could probably get going with enough to buy a rack (600) and insurance, £200-£450 depending on provider and activities.  But Ive probably spent thousands....I dont want to add it up. But thats because I;ve always been broke so when I get some cash that I can use it goes in to courses, education adn personal development..and sometimes more kit.

Also I've rarely worked for other people, not for any reason but I've rarely freelanced unless route setting. You dont have to wait on work if you can create your own and think of how to link everything 

In reply to Alex Riley:

I think your MCI rate is off.  (possibly location specific).  It would be unusual to see MCI freelance work advertised for under £200 in Scotland.  

Actually I read further down your list after writing that and see you include a fee for a website.  Theres very few MCIs (in Scotland) who would be taking direct payment for a days work at less that £300.  

In reply to arose:

I don't think it is off, it think it represents day work rates across the UK, with Scotland being at the top at £200+. Work in the Peak and the South is often £160+, North Wales and the Lakes £180+. Most of my work as a freelancer in North Wales is £200+ but I'm selective about who I work for.

I did also say that people with their own business would be making significantly more per day, this is different from a freelance day rate.