UKC

We've done as much road testing and last minute changes as we reasonably can. The site is unfinished but hopefully already a useful resource for visiting climbers and locals alike. It can be found at:

http://www.eee.ntu.ac.uk/offwidth

It should stay at this location for about a couple of months before we are forced to move it, to hopefully a more permanent site. You will need Flash plug-ins to play the swf files and some of the file sizes are quite big given the background images and large amount of text information, so operation on 56k modems with a low cache size will be a bit of a struggle.

The main feature of the site....the guides to pretty much everything we found climbable below VS/HVS on popular Peak gritstone crags... is designed to complement the BMC and Rockfax guides: it deliberately wont make much sense without one set or the other. Several pages are not finished yet...some like the Staffordshire stuff we are just waiting to adapt to the new BMC guide, for which we did a lot of route checking.

Comments are welcome here or via the email from my profile, which I will try to update to include the site address later today.

In reply to Offwidth:

Well done!

In reply to Offwidth:
Looks good from first look.
Great
Cheers
Graham

In reply to Offwidth:

That's a brilliant site. Only spent a couple of minutes browsing it, but it's nicely put together!

In reply to Offwidth:

Good work Steve & Lynn.

In reply to Offwidth:

You will need Flash plug-ins to play the swf files and some of the file sizes are quite big given the background images and large amount of text information, so operation on 56k modems with a low cache size will be a bit of a struggle.




MMMMM your not wrong, I am on isdn, and waited ages for the first page to open, then even longer for the second page, Tried some links in the home page but got bored of waiting for them to load

sorry mate. If you want advice on reducing file sizes give me a buz, I wenr through the same problems with my site

apart from that good idea

In reply to Offwidth:

one tip, if you are going to use flash then you should use preloaders for the big pages, that way, people with slow connections can see how long they have to wait


just had another look, it does look good

In reply to Neil@canaryclimbs:

The bulk of the file size is the full screen background jpeg images. They are optimised to around 100k. If I optimise much more the quality drop becomes too noticable. The best way to make the site faster loading is to either forget the background images or more likely provide an option without images which is something I will think about later. The first version of this site was designed to be used by our student club and on our internal Uni network bandwidth this is not such an issue. I may eventually try and get an html low spec version of the site going as another alternative. I know there are other optimisation tools around but I am currently tool rich but time poor being a very busy man working at a University in times of big changes.

In reply to Offwidth:
Looks excellent at first glance!
I'll have a look in a bit more detail when I get the chance.

In reply to Offwidth: Nice one squire! Why not buy a domain name for it. I bought mine from here http://www.firevision.net

Only £9.99 for two years for a .co.uk name and they support all the forwarding etc for you. All you have to do is supply the address where the page actually is and it figures out the rest!

Top work!

In reply to Offwidth:

hi mate there are certain software that will get those pics down to about 16k without loosing quality

In reply to Offwidth:

Very good! Great site!

But unfortunately I'll have to wait untill I get a faster connection, before seeing more than 1 page of it!

In reply to Offwidth:

I like the article entitled "Bumblies?" and look forward to the articles which are not available yet. That's a good point about low-grade climbing being particularly dangerous.

I also look forward to the photo gallery, and expect to see plenty of helmets! When will that be up?

There's an interesting table including low technical grades. How, for example, would Tower Ridge fit into this scheme you reckon?

I don't know if you want any mistakes corrected, but it talks about "low grade roues" in the above article - with an accent those would be debauched old men, I believe?

In reply to Offwidth: coool site, but when on the "grades and ethics page, i mouse-over the "grading grit link" and text appears. Great. However, when i move the mouse to scroll down to see the end of the writing, the writing disappears. I may be being thick, but i cant get the end of the writing...

In reply to ceri:

A lot of the information in those pages comes up when you move the mouse over the button. If you move the mouse you lose it. Hence, you either need to increase the size of the window (close toolbars) or use something other than the mouse to scroll the window (up/down arrows?). Really that's something I need to change. I think only those pages have that much information inside the buttons and they should really have such a lot of information in seperate frames. It was design viewed from Flash in Explorer which I guess you are not using.

In reply to Offwidth:
My own preference would be to ditch the Flash and have the whole thing resize with the browser window. I have a 19" moniutor and the site takes up 25% of the available space, if it resized I wouldn't have to scroll at all.
However, I realise that's a fundamental design change so won't hold my breath! Also although I like to keep web pages as simple as possible, most people seem to diosagree.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Read the site history and it will explain why the site was designed that way.

Anyway as a keen but crap climber, why shouldn't my web authoring skills be similar

In reply to Offwidth: With regard to the background images, couldn't you run a filter on them? For example, you could go black and white, or you could run one of those fancy arty type filters that make it look like a painting. I quite like those. After all, it is only a background and you can include the real images in the gallery.

In reply to Jon Dittman:

Its not only a background, its also a full screen revealed image. The design uses the same jpeg for both. I may be reducing the image file sizes in the next few weeks with help from Eventually I hope to link a lower res background to a selective resolution photo database. For the moment getting it up and running was the key constraint.

Lots of help so far on the site but less on the more difficult bits on text or grade errors...might be best to email me these than bore everyone here.

In reply to Richard Ashcroft

Tower ridge from memory would be D 2c (protectable but exposed) for two pitches or HVD 4a by the Direct Route on The Douglas Boulder (and harder if you miss the line at the top).

For those that havent looked I've introduced technical grades and regularised the grading sytem for the lower grade routes. Centering at M 2b, D 2c, HD 3a, VD 3b, HVD 3c, S 4a, HS 4b, VS 4c, HVS 5a. The normal grade range is one either side with exceptional routes (bouldering starts or death on a stick) being upto a maximum of 3 technical grades away from this centre.

In reply to Offwidth:


Thanks for this assessment.

Keep up the good work!

In reply to Offwidth:

I started climbing a couple of years ago, and have now climbed lots of the low grade routes in the Peak. It was immediately obvious that there are two worlds: the one portrayed in Climber magazine and the like, and the other being the reality of what you see if you go climbing outdoors: the majority of people doing low grade stuff. So its great to see a website dedicated to the unsung but massively popular routes - well done.

In reply to stonewall:

Several people are having scrolling problems on the Grades & Ethics page as the information on the buttons drops too low for many browsers. As this contains the important new grade table, I will definitely update this later this week to solve the problem. I will also clear a few minor typos and put in a section on bouldering grades. Thanks again for all those who have provided helpful comments and feel free to email me with any more typos or grade queries.

In reply to Offwidth:

It's lovely! I look forward to checking many of them out.

Ali x

In reply to Alison Bond:

Particularly the Top 10 chimneys, offwidths and caving expeditions...

In reply to Offwidth:
Ever climbed Calcutta Crack at the roaches ? (small corner crack near blushing butress). Graded Severe in the old guide or HS 4b in the rock fax. I think more like HS 4c.....

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_route.html?id=5932

In reply to Offwidth:
Just used it to see what you thought of Defile Left at Wharncliffe (VDiff in the guide). "at least S 4c" makes me feel much better! We reckonded S 4b or HS 4c which seems to match

In reply to Woker:

Calcutta crack is really hard to start if you are short and typical knarly HS 4b above. Did it the same day we put up our best ever new route: a R to L traverse across Calcutta Buttress.

I was waiting for the new guide book before we put the Roaches pages up (all finished last year). Not sure what has happened as it should have been out now but dont want to keep pestering Mr Garnett as he's done a superb job and has been pestered too much already.

In reply to Offwidth:
so what do you think 4c start or not ?
Also I agree the top crack to be hard 4b, but the top out felt much more like 4c to me. Certainly the hardest HS 4b moves I've ever done !!! (and in general the ones I find hard have been upgraded to VS 4c)

In reply to Offwidth:

Pester away. I am told that it is at the printers and should be out for Easter.

In reply to Woker:

I'll give you a list of 4b moves which are harder

3a Calcutta Crab Dance HS 4b**
This excellent new route starts from rocks in the gully on the right of the buttress. Climb (or slither) onto the sloping ledge and move across the well-protected wall with interest. As the protection runs out, jugs arrive and lead around the nose in superb position. Step down and continue traversing on good holds passing a possible belay in Calcutta Crack. The route ends at an easy slab with the nearest belay at the top of Calcutta Crack.
7 Calcutta Crack S (HS 4b*)Possible HS 4b*
A very awkward start for the short, otherwise just thuggish climbing on jams or layaways.


I thought top end although either or both could be just about VS. The feedback from the Roaches team was also HS for both. I am trying to be consistent across the peak with Mutiny Crack @HS etc

In reply to Offwidth:
maybe I did the top out a bit wierd. i possibly should have manteled the short but wide ledge on the left instead I kinda rocked over on to it using slopers on the finishing twist in the crack, also when a bit higher you can find a flat (chipped looking but probably not) hold inside the crack on a sloper. Maybe only 4b but hard 4b if it is. I think the start is 4c easily whether you finger jam or layaway, it's grunty and reachy.

In reply to Dave Garnett: Great news. Looking forward to going to the Roaches with three guide books!

In reply to Woker:

The start is a lot harder than 4c if you are short. I started from a block and compared to moves on Brooke's Layback seemed about the same.

In reply to Offwidth:

but everyone knows it's VS

In reply to Offwidth:
I'm tall BTW. I think the moves are harder than the start to mutiny crack (which I think is 4c also)

In reply to Offwidth:
As long as you can reach the finger jam on Calcutta Crack from the ground, I don't see why the moves are much harder for the short. My girlfriends 5 foot 8 and she can reach the finger jam from the ground without using cheat blocks and alike (and her fingers are pretty thin too), and from there she did the rest of the moves in a similar manner to me.

How tall are you BTW ?

I can see you've put lots of work into building the site but using flash doesn't do it justice. I think you could have got just as good an effect (better even) using HTML with a well designed CSS. This would be considerable quicker to navigate and the background images would be cached (if you wished to use a set of background images less than your total number of pages). It would also mean that your audience wouldn't require a proprietry plug-in.

I'd be willing to give you advice on how to create such a site, post if you'd like me to get in touch.

If you are worried about your images being stolen (as JPEGS) and have chosen flash to avoid that, then it is possible to also avoid (well reduce by my method) the chance of doing this by making the images more suited to background (pale or reduced colour range) than foreground.

In reply to Woker:
5 foot 8 isn't short!

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
5 foot 8 is quite short for a bloke. How tall is offwidth ?

In reply to Woker:

5 foot 9 with a positive ape index. Lynn is 5 foot 5, she really struggled.

Finger locks? that sounds very 4c to me and I certainly did nothing like that.

I think I stood on a big block and laybacked a few moves to a rest. The top is OK if, like many routes of this type, you hold your nerve, keep your weight over your feet and feel around for available holds.

You have to remember our aim is to maximise consistency for onsight leads without giving rise to a huge grade creep. The pool of climbers that have climbed with me on most routes is quite small and if in doubt we have climbed routes again with a new leader. We have made mistakes in our own view when we rushed in good form or faffed in bad form.

In reply to Offwidth:
That lay back is horrible as there is no good grips to be had on the crack edge, they are all some what of a compromise . IMHO the finger lock was easier, then followedby a reach for the ledge. Remember that initial crack is quite overhanging. I still think 4c for the initial moves.

I've used finger locks on VDiffs before, as these have been the easiest way up the buggers.

In reply to Woker:

I may have 'laybacked' with a least one hand in a jam. Something sometimes that people forget you can do. I just remember the hard move was to get started and it wasnt that hard. I also clearly remember Lynn simply couldnt do it the way I did, being shorter and not especially flexible. Given the position of the move and the protection there is no way it would affect the adjectival grade so I still think HS 4b with a warning for the short and the thugish nature of the climbing is about right.

I too have finger locked on VD's but more for security when I dont trust my feet. Its comes naturally when you solo a lot. The safest way to solo a route may be more technical than the easiest way to climb it but enable a recovery if something slips.

In reply to Offwidth:
No I think HS is about right. It's just the 4b grade I think is wrong. Much more like 4c IMHO and not easy 4c either. Still no biggy hard 4b is OK too.

Compare the moves to Black Hawk HS 4c Stanage. I think you'll find these are harder but both fairly similar.

In reply to Woker:

Black Hawk is harder for me but less height dependant. Black Hawk Slit was closer in difficulty to me (but also less height dependant).

In reply to Woker:

Average height for males is 5'9" in US, 5'8" in UK and Germany and 5'6" in Japan. You can probably add an inch (more in Japan?) for the climbing population as they will be younger.

duncan (5'9")

In reply to duncan at home:
I understand that quite a few of the female persuasion climb these days

In reply to Offwidth: might be getting off topic here, but i had to do a nasty move to get off a ledge onblack hawk hell crack, which 6ft odd swirly reached straight through. seemed hard at the time, but S was all i was climbing.

In reply to ceri:

747 Black Hawk Hell Crack S 4a** [S**] (S 4a***) no more than HVD 4a**.
Easier for the most part than the classic VD Hollybush Crack except for one hard move (especially if short) that is well protected; a great first 'Severe' lead.

In reply to Offwidth et al:

Try "The Cracks" on Dinas Mot. Only HS and quite easy until the very top pitch, where this is a single hard move to make - which is tough enough if you are 6ft but proved impossible for my g/f (5'8"?). Basically, you're pretty stuffed if you can't reach a very high hold. From memory I seem to recall thinking she'd have had to be climbing about english 5b to make the move cleanly (which she wasn't at the time). In any event, it certainly wasn't within the normal ambit of a HS climber.

ps: I think vertically challenged leaders can sneak off sideways if they can't make the move.

In reply to JonC:
How close is it to the belay, ie are combined tactics an option?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


He he. It's actually a way above the last belay as per the guidebook - you move up and right about 5m, before being faced with the move (off a small ledge). However, you do have a point! I recall there being sufficient gear to set up a belay (a high camp as it were) on the small ledge which you leave as you make the move. It would be awkward, but maybe you could do it. Almost worth going back to try

In reply to JonC:

We did that OK and with rucksacks on to boot. There must be a technical trick way Lynn found to gain a bit of extra height. Slow Ledge above, however, was a more terrifying experience. I vividly remember clinging on an amazingly exposed soapy arete with no purchase for my feet on some of the most verdant lichen I have ever seen. We also did Gambit Climb the same day (hence the sacks) which was a bit tricky for VD.

In reply to Offwidth:

Especially the 4b/c finger crack on the last pitch - typical Snowdonia VDiff

In reply to Offwidth:


I recall thinking there was a rather blind crack on the LHS of the wall and you could lay off this and make a long reach for the top if needs be. However, I think that's still quite hard - I rejected it as an option because a) I didn't need it and b) it seemed quite hard. I imagine it would be a stopper for many.

In reply to Offwidth:

I actually found the 1st chimney pitch on Gashed Crag, Tryfan, absolutely desparate. Once I'd got going there was no turning back (and no stopping to place pro). With sacs on etc but, still, not a simple "thrutch" unless you really do bury yourself deep inside the chimney (which, judging by the polish, is exactly what many people do). And entering the second chimney was fun, though not quite in the same league IMO. Still, all in all, a character building route.

In reply to Offwidth:

Is this the mantleshelf move? If so - the trick is to jump, and hope you've guessed correctly where the hold is


I seemed to find this OK - was the tricky stuff the pitch after the ledge itself?

In reply to Kipper:

It wasnt the moves, it was thick green wet lichen that caused the problem. The slab setions of The Cracks had obvious large weeps. If The Cracks is bone dry Slow Ledge should be OK.

The chimney on Gashed Crag is vastly overrated as a sandbag pitch, even with a rucksack. People will insist on wedging themselves deep inside things and trying to make upwards progress where the trick is often to climb as far outside as you can. Hence what is does do is expose the lack of practice too many climbers have on offwidths.

In reply to Offwidth:

"Several people are having scrolling problems on the Grades & Ethics page as the information on the buttons drops too low for many browsers. As this contains the important new grade table, I will definitely update this later this week to solve the problem. I will also clear a few minor typos and put in a section on bouldering grades."

Done now...also added pages on ethics (follow home: features: grades & ethics: ethics). Sorry about the delay I've had an interesting few weeks at work...

The next upgrade will be when I put in the new Roaches guide pages which unless Dave Garnett sends me an advance copy will be after Easter.

In reply to Offwidth:

Incidently wrt any comments, typos, problems, or just plain grade disagreements...keep them coming to my email via this site.

In reply to Offwidth: I like the site and agree with many of the comments on routes such as undertakers buttress at Gardoms which is scary on the first pitch. You do massage my ego nicely though. The Grogan "possible E1". and Garden Face direct "possible HVS. E1 taken independantly" (to paraphrase). I soloed that, and although it was scary I feel it was reasonable at VS 5a.

In reply to Monk:
Grogan E1, you will have Coxy bursting a blood vessel. How about HVS 5c?

Chris

In reply to Monk:

But presumably if you soloed it you weren't thinking about gear placements? Maybe there aren't any?

In reply to Offwidth:

I like the concept. Even with the best will in the world, though, and accepting the accusation of being elitist, I'm sure I'd never have been able to distinguish a Moderat 3b (technical) route from a Moderate 1b (dangerous route).

In reply to GrahamD:
Unfortuately the grade table doesn't work. Whats the hardest VDiff tech grade ? I guess it can be any, as boulder problems don't get adj grades. Therefore a UK7a boulder problem with a VDiff upper crack is still only VDiff 7a not magically E3 7a.

In reply to Monk

VS 5a is a route with well protected short crux sequences which is inconsistent with the climb in question. E1 5b, HVS 5a, VS 4c take your pick.....

In reply to GrahamD:

'with the best will in the world' etc.....I will listen first to people who climb mods and diffs on this ( I know a few) but am aware the system is harder for me to judge.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I think Mr Cox and I will disagree on many things except perhaps consistency and not upgrading things just because climbers fresh from an indoor walls find them tough. After a decade of playing with some of these things I think a fair few peak HVS microroutes are due an upgrade. Adjectival grades are for onsightability: The Grogan is safe but if you spend time placing gear you need to be very strong to suceed, otherwise quite bold, hence E1.

In reply to Woker:

The grade table does work as that is the way we define it. We deliberately put a technical maximum grade on routes to cut out the HVD 5b or E1 7a concept. We specifically define the maximum technical ability for an adjectival grade to be 3 technical grades above the centre grade as we think it is unreasonable for say a VD leader to be capable of starting on 4c moves. Adjectival grades always did include technical difficulty and at some stage a hard start has to raise them otherwise why not have a moderate 7b?

In reply to GrahamD:

I climb up to english 6c but I can tell the difference between moderates. At this grade particularly there is a huge range. Grotto slab at Burbage north has no gear but is a walk in the park, whereas other moderates (particularly chimneys) can be harder than many diffs! Check out the Gangplank at curbar followed by the crack just behind it. Both moderate but very different.

In reply to Woker:

What about a VDiff crack with a UK 7a move at the top, protected by gear above your head? Since this is safer than the version you describe, presumably that is VDiff as well?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
no a 7a move high off the deck but protected would get about E5

In reply to Offwidth:
But unfortuntaely that means by your table that a UK 7a boulder problem (let's say a low down one) witha Vdiff upper crack would have to get atleast E3. This is obviously bobbins.

I believe there is a Vdiff 6a somewhere isn't there ?

In any case there is no limit that you can set on tech grades for adjectival grades. When you think about it it's ovious why. Otherwise how can you grade a UK7a boulder problem with a VDiff crack above it. Obviosuly the boulder problem is not a route so can't get a adj grade. But yet obviously you can't increase the adj grade of the route including the VDiff crack just becaus et has a UK 7a boulder problem start. Clearly a case for VDiff 7a.

Personally I don't see why Vdiff grades have to imply that all Vdiff leaders should be able to climb the tech grade. It's more a description of the route that with inspection will give you the full picture. I think it should more imply that a VDiff leader is unlikely to get them selves in to a worrying situation on the route than an implication that they can climb it.

In reply to Monk:

"Check out the Gangplank at curbar followed by the crack just behind it." I dont know these ?????

In reply to Woker:

Clearly a case for not documenting the route at all I'd have said. No-one who can get off the ground is going to bother with the rest, and no-one who'd like to do the crack could get to it without a ladder!

In reply to Offwidth:
Birchen perhaps?

In reply to Woker:

So if you hit the ground when you fall off it's VDiff, but if you just swing in thin air it's E5

In reply to Woker:

Adjectival grades measure everything that links to an onsight not just danger. A VD leader wont get themselves in any trouble on a sustained E4 6a crack either. In turning Verandah Buttress from HVD 5b into S 5a I did have a modicum of regret but since I think the route was no soft touch for VD once of the ground, HVD was not justifiable. I've never heard of a VD 6a. We make it perfectly clear on the site that not everyone will like our grading system but it has worked well for beginners we know: getting climbers to lead early, accept responsibility rather than following like sheep, and build understanding what trad climbing is about. It is also much more inclusive for those climbers who are not prepared to lead harder than say VD.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Must be.

I gave the Gangplank M 2a and the crack behind, All Aboard M 3a (for a hard start) against my centre Mod grade of 2b.

The Gangplank is interesting: Ive had a couple of people go on at me how Mods are staircases and when sandbagged as a result failed to flash the gangplank no-handed (a very good problem incidently).

In reply to Offwidth:
I disagree that A VD leader wont get themselves in any trouble on a sustained E4 6a crack either. Firstly they are likely to drop off and test their pro. This is a dangerious activity. Secondly they will not probably be able to let go long enough to place pro. Thirldy the type of pro used on harder routes is often more tricky to place.

How many VS leaders can climb the 5b wall variation to ash tree wall ? Not many I reckon, still that's not the point.

Im my books if the initial moves are rock hard but don't deserve an adj grade then whatever climbs above those inital moves should not include them in the adj grade.

In reply to Woker:

I think the point is that they won't hurt themselves as they'll fail to leave the ground.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
not necessarily true and not what I think offwidth was implying. For instance the E4 crack may start easily and get steadily harder.

In reply to Woker:

"I disagree that A VD leader wont get themselves in any trouble on a sustained E4 6a crack either." OK....

"Firstly they are likely to drop off and test their pro." ....if they get off the ground

"This is a dangerious activity."...yep that will be climbing then

"Secondly they will not probably be able to let go long enough to place pro."..they wont get far so thats hardly a problem

" Thirldy the type of pro used on harder routes is often more tricky to place. "...ditto

"How many VS leaders can climb the 5b wall variation to ash tree wall ?" ...most otherwise they wouldnt be VS leaders. It is normal to expect a leader at a grade to be able to boulder at least two technical grades harder than there normal lead grade.

"Not many I reckon, still that's not the point. "...now I understand

" Im my books if the initial moves are rock hard but don't deserve an adj grade then whatever climbs above those inital moves should not include them in the adj grade.".......

....so do something about it and write the Woker guide to climbing.... you are clearly keen, opinionated, and have enough experience to give it a shot so why not?

In reply to Offwidth:

Ooops. I meant Birchen. I don't quite know how I got those two crags confused!

In reply to Offwidth:
I don't intend to write a guide, I think grades already work the way I am describing so feel no need to change them, I was mearly pointing out potential holes in your system, which incidentally I do bascially like. it's just that I don't think grades fit leaders I think leaders fit grades. I.E. a vdiff does not imply a type of leader more a description of the climb.

In reply to Offwidth:


Fair comment. It's just that I can never remember a time, even when doing my first VDs, when I could distinguish technical moves very well below 4a and certainly not at 1a etc. so I'd welcome some calibration. What is walking up a flight of stairs, or up a ladder for instance ?

In reply to Woker:

Its better to be a writer and a critic, than just the later. It is unquestionable that a significant number of climbers would disagree with your view on the vailidity of a VD 6a, so maybe the structure of grading is subject to erosion and flux and requires defence.

In reply to GrahamD:

Still working on a table of routes for metrics. In our grade table 1a is where the use of hands would really help, ie at the start of scrambling. Our 1a is quite a bit below the traditional start of 1a seen at Southern Sandstone. Normal stairs would never be 1a and a ladder would always be more than 1a whatever the angle, even horizontal. By the time you get to 2a hands are normally essential without resorting to tricks (although some low angle featureless low friction rock like slate may be an exception)

In reply to Offwidth:
yeah but the later requires less work. Anyway who are you to judge my armchair climber technique

In reply to Offwidth:
So what grade would you grade a low down uk7a boulder problem above a perfect landing (that would only get a boulder grade normally) with a 60 foot Vdiff above it ?

It's all very well to make up new ways of using an established system and to take your own views on grades but you must expect some critisism of that if your going to do it on a public forumn.

Also you know as well as I do that there are no limitations currently placed on the tech grade associated to an adj grade so in that respect you are changing an established system. Rules of thumb are not hard and fast rules.

In reply to Woker:
a 7a problem start with a 60 foot VDiff above it would have been chipped many decades ago and so would now be standard VDiff

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Yeah yeah,

In Reply to Offwidth:
Come on mate don't skulk off now, what grade would you give the route mentioned in my last post. By your system it'd have to be E3 7a wouldn't it. Now that just doesn't make sense as your grading a boulder problem E3 when it clearly isn't an E3......

In reply to Woker:

Ignoring for the moment my table doesnt extend well beyond E1 and assuming nothing too tricky is involved in rigging a system to get started I would grade it: VD A0 ( E3 7a direct) or a V6 boulder problem. You grade for the most common form of ascent and VD climbers will need combined tactics (a form of aid) to do this. Fortunately grit always seems to give a side way in so your example is a bit pointless for the Peak District gritstone crags.

In reply to Offwidth:
Ok say you can not aid climb the start (as is quite likely for a UK 7a) and you can't trav in, then obviously your system can not grade the route with an adequate grade.

In reply to Woker:

A person stands against the wall and another stands on their shoulders to give a reach of around 4m and still VD A0 (E3 7a direct). If this wont do, a few more people will be required (or a thick branch, pole or ladder of some kind) which will get you up to nearly 6m so say VD A1 (E4 7a direct). If its more than 6m then its no longer sensibly regarded as a VD without a proper ladder and at least E6 7a direct. Keep em coming.....

In reply to Offwidth:
I didn't think your ethics stretched to cheat sticks/blocks/people/ladders and points of aid, really offwidth I am surprised !!!!!

You see my point though init ?

In reply to Woker:

Woker, old chap, you are making a fool of yourself. E3 7a is a perfectly sensible grade for a route such as this and no-one who has any grasp whatsoever of the grading system would give it a lower grade, let alone VD 7a. You are making the common mistake of assuming that the adjectival grade reflects only the seriousness, sustainedness, or whatever: it doesn’t; how hard it is to get up the bloddy thing also comes into it.

Although to be honest as several people have said the sensible grade for this hypothetical creature is V8 (or as appropriate).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Yeah sure I know that, but there is no set limit on the adj grade to tech grade relation and there are routes which fall out of offwidths system on grit, that's all I'm really trying to say. There certainly are routes i've heard of graded UK 6a and yet are under HVS.

I don't think E3 7a is a fair grade for the climb anyway. So you climb a boulder problem and get no lead grade and then lead up a VDiff crack and claim an E3, really that's bobbins and you know it.

In reply to Woker:

There’s at least one famous VS 6a on Stanage, yes, although I expect the new guidebook changed it. And Monty Python’s Flying Circus famously used to get HVS 6c, but I think these days people prefer Vsomething. But I think you’d find VD 7a was at least one step beyond the bounds of the current system.

I can’t get too excited about ‘claiming’ an E3 – climbing’s not about claiming things. But grading’s about trying to tell people what it’s worth their while trying, and I’m not sure grading 7a boulder problems VD is a useful step in that direction.

In reply to Woker:

I have toproped, dogged, headpointed, aided, solo aided, climbed on banned crags, stood on blocks, removed vegetation, trundled blocks, protected in trees.... all on grit. Sometimes you need to have been bad to appreciate properly what is good ? Many of the worst things I now regret but they were done early in my climbing as my small group of initial partners were self taught and no one told us about ethics other than no chipping or bolts.

I do understand your point and I obviously think you are in a minority with that view.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
I think the "well-known" VS 6a is Little Things - put up by myself in the late 70s. Martin Veale, who was leading E5 at the time, couldn't follow it.
The fact that we recorded as VS 6a of course means nothing - and with 20+ years hindsite it might be HVS 6a, E1 6b or somewhere around there - I doubt whether it really is, or ever was, VS.
Interestingly the current guide suggests Martin Boysen did it some time before us - another example of someone doing a new route on the best grit crag in the country and failing to record it.
The point is that the grade a route gets in a guide book may only bear a passing resemblance to what grade it really is!

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I wonder how many people have ever climbed Little Things. I bet you may be struggling to exceed 50 which with its reputation of possibly the hardest VS in the peak says a lot about how, despite all the posturing, too many climbers dont take on real challenges.

In reply to Offwidth:

Well, I certainly haven’t. I came, fairly rapidly, to the conclusion that I would need to return with a rope. I think that if one ever did try to solo all the VSs in Stanage in a day, this would represent a substantial stopper indeed. It’s really too high to be at all comfortable with.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
That's cos it isn't VS!
As to 50 ascents, a no starred route in the middle of nowhere - I would not be surprised to hear that it had never had a second ascent. Anybody out there done it?

Chris

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Another stopper might be Flesh and Blood at VS 5b, it was the only VS in the last Stanage guide that I never got up. I think E1 5c might be nearer the mark.

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

>Flesh and Blood ......E1 5c might be nearer the mark

!!!!!!

Chris, you and I may have had our differences in the past, notably when you said I wasn’t photogenic enough for your confounded guidebook, but for this observation I forgive you everything!

You may of course have recalled this yourself and been winding me up for the purpose, but I failed on this the day I did Nectar, I failed on it again the day I did High Flyer and I failed on it for a third time the day I did Slap ‘n’ Spittle. I eventually succeeded by the skin of my teeth at the fourth attempt, after a visit specifically dedicated to climbing this one trivial VS only, although admittedly it was very wet at the time. Mind you I had a mat, so I can probably only claim a Severe.

So, to cut a long story short I agree that this one was slightly taking the piss at the grade. Having said that, my mates were united in declaring VS if anything an overgrade, and have all referred to it for some years now as ‘oh yes, that piss easy four foot wall on jugs at Stanage North.’ whenever the subject comes up.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
It wasn't that you weren't photogenic enough - more that I was worried you might be mistaken for Brian Rossiter such was the vibrant glow from you trews! If you would like to be in one of our 'confounded guides' we need pictures of Peak limestone classics (a real oxymoron!!) for the new guide - so how are you fixed, any clothing - no matter how bad the taste - acceptable!

Chris

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

I recall bumping into John G whilst doing No More Exuses with Simon C while him and his mate where doing a reccy for soloing (or doing) all the VS's on Stanage in a day and them explaining that Little Things represented a real stopper. I wonder how they got on?

I also wonder if it was a youthful John G that you were reffering to in the E5 thread who flashed Moon Crack?

When are you next up in the Peak, it would be nice to see you again.

J

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Now there's a challange if ever there was one!

Scoop Wall anyone?

J

In reply to Chris Craggs:

"a no starred route in the middle of nowhere" vs "a real challenge being possibly the hardest route at its grade in the peak". I guess my glass is half full

In reply to Offwidth:

In the ethics section...

Insted of "sometimes harder climbs use preplaced gear"
Use "sometimes weaker climbers use preplaced gear"

Pie

In reply to Ropeboy:

Well, we never did Little Things if that helps answer your question! My mate did them all bar that while reccying and I did most of them (1989 guide). Basically, Little Things is the only real stopper, although Traversty requires a little respect if the weather is warm. Paved Vacuum is worryingly high where it matters, but we had convinced ourselves we'd be OK soloing it after leading it a couple of times.

As for all in one day, well, we were building up to it (ie trying to get fit enough in my case). On one fine day we did half of them at the required rate. And then... the ring ouzels made their appearance (taking out six routes), after which summer holidays came along etc.

It has been suggested to me that for such a worthy project as all the VSs, the RSPB and the BMC would be willing to grant a one-day suspension of the ban and allow a couple of friendly climbers to traverse the edge late this spring. Do you think that idea would wash when I get my collar felt somewhere near Rusty Wall?

In reply to John Gillott:

>On one fine day we did half of them at the required rate

You make it sound like you were almost there. Perhaps to give a better picture you should have added ‘and was so exhausted I could barely walk to the car’!

Ropeboy, John G was indeed the 70’s whizzkid I referred to. Don’t know when I’m next up in the Peak but I’ll get in touch when I am – actually I have just been hatching a plan to introduce Cox junior to some boulders in a fortnight’s time, but I think they might be Staffordshire boulders.

Come off it, Chris, my trews were fine. You were just disappointed I wasn’t bleeding and gurning!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Weary is the word I think (for me: my mate was pretty fresh still). Certainly (moving right to left as we were), the thought of soloing Little Things (well, OK, that wasn't even being thought about), Undercut Crack, Flesh and Blood (yes, still tricky, even if not quite worth E1) and finally Paved Vacuum after another seven hours plus climbing was a little daunting.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I take it you could stand and reach a poorish jam just over the lip on Little Things? Please tell me that Martin Veale tried really hard and declared it impossible for the under six footers. That way we can justify the combined tactics we have in mind.

In reply to Anonymous:

Can't think of a route below HVS that uses preplaced gear. The Tippler sometimes has an insitu thread, sometimes not. However for several leading edge routes it is a common form of the 'ethic'. On the ethics pages of the site we tried to stick to stating what is and tried to limit opinion and avoid preaching. The clear exceptions to this are wire brushes and groups where in some areas we think the rate of damage is currently so high something needs to be done. Another point about ethics is that most inexperineced climbers probably need to climb and to be lectured to less to best understand some of the finer points.

If you want my personal views they are very varied, for which I can give you a good example: Seb Greive on Parthian Shot filmed in Hard Grit. This is one of the biggest mixed messages ever sent out to climbers. It was excellent in the respect that it showed you didnt need to be the very best climber to climb the very hardest routes. On the down side it encourages pre-placement on a feature (a flake that doesnt appear to be entirely sound) that is likely to suffer more than most, potentially reducing the chance of enjoyment of future climbers with a purer style. The video of this ascent glorified danger to a certain extent without always having proper context whilst being highly inspiring in many respects and whatever else was very honest. Being also a pragmatist I dont see much different (other than the film) in this ascent to much that has occurred in the history of the leading edge of climbing or is likely to occur in the future. So, the good, the bad, the inevitable and the sitting on the fence.

In reply to Offwidth:
When you gonna get the roaches section up and running ? I'm looking forward to that as the roaches has some pretty unusual climbs in the HVS and bellow category IMHO.....

In reply to Woker:

I guess they got buried!

"Several pages are not finished yet...some like the Staffordshire stuff we are just waiting to adapt to the new BMC guide, for which we did a lot of route checking."

"The next upgrade will be when I put in the new Roaches guide pages which unless Dave Garnett sends me an advance copy will be after Easter"

Of couse all the stuff on HVD and S climbs on the upper and lower tier was posted here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=78927&v=1#1052755

In reply to John Gillott:
Exactly, I pushed a good Friend in the crack near the lip, placed a couple of poor jams, then struggled the 0.5m to the top. Martin could't actually touch the rock!
I noticed nobody has claimed a 2nd ascent yet!
Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Sadly its no longer the hardest VS on Stanage. Do you think it is the hardest HVS?

In reply to Offwidth:

Nah, that's The Vice, mate!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

I very much doubt it. When I'm fit again and have knocked off a few more HVS jamming tests I'm thinking of giving the Vice a go (which is now E1). There is no way Im going to do HVS 6a roof cracks this summer!

( I hope that was your point

Serious question though: what is the hardest HVS on stanage now that thing on Apparent North is now E3

In reply to Offwidth:
What the vice on Higgar tor ?

In reply to Offwidth:

What thing on Apparent North? Not Mating Toads, surely?

The hardest HVS on Stanage is Finale. I’ve seen a couple of B10+ boulderers fail to make any impact at all on this. Either we’re too stupid to work out where it goes or it’s a mother of a sandbag.

Other than that, to be honest I can’t think of anything that stands out. Bottomless Crack (if that’s the expression I want) repels the odd solo attempt from time to time. And whichever out of Hardly Hyperkeratosis or Certainly Parakeratosis is HVS is a bit much without a rope and doesn’t seem to have any particular gear, though I might be wrong about that. Jeepers Creepers is fairly good value, although I think the last grade feebly upgraded that along with a whole load of other middle-of-the-grade classics like Kelly’s Overhang. (actually I ought to have mentioned that on my insular thread).

So Many Classics So Little Time can also give the unwary a moment’s pause, if it’s the one I think it is. A slightly-higher-ball-than-it-looks wall.

I remember failing on Phlegethoa once and regaining terra firma with pounding heart after an unpleasant few moments poised some distance above boulders, and thinking that was a bit much. But others have since told me it’s piss.

Woker, you are thinking of The File and The Rasp. The Vice is at Stanage North End. And whether or not it’s the hardest HVS on Stanage, it’s certainly the least prepossessing.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Magnetic North HVS 5c to E3 5c. Kelly's Overhang stayed at HVS.