UKC

Neil Foster writes about revisiting a shifting sea cliff classic...

My relationship with Big Groove goes back a long way. Almost as long as my relationship with Gogarth, which - by coincidence - is precisely as long as my relationship with sea cliff climbing.

My first ever sea cliff climb was A Dream of White Horses, which I did with Maurice Birkill and Sarah White in October 1979. I was 17 years old, had been climbing less than a year and didn't have a clue. But it was a memorable experience, and I was delighted when a few years ago I spotted a photo on UKC, of Maurice, 40 years on, making another ascent of Dream in the company of his son, Luke.

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Enjoyed reading that Neil.

I climbed Big Groove shortly after the rockfall, when there were still some shards knocking around in the scar pretty close to where you had to put your feet. The 'direct' pitch above, although physically harder, was mentally easier.

Why so convinced that the flake was trundled? Have a lot of bits of Gogarth not tumbled off without warning over the years?

“But I'm willing to bet that someone reading this will know who removed the flake and why, and I really hope this prompts them to explain.  Even better, it might prompt them to go back and…”

I thought you were going to say “glue it back on” 🤣

Importantly- are you setting a trend of carrying Crocs for belaying in?

Brilliant story. From looking at the photos is not perfectly feasible that the flake simply fell off one wet, stormy day?

Or is there something else going unsaid here?

Nice article. Sounds like a real shame. Would love to have been able to try it in pre-rockfall state!

Are you thinking of the legendary Gogarth 'freeze thaw' cycle ?

My first foray to Gogarth was in April 1974 less than two years after starting climbing. I led Central Park in good style despite kicking my one bomb-proof runner out as I moved past it. Chris then lead Park Lane, we had to move together at one point as he ran out of rope before reaching a reliable belay. The following day we did Gogarth and afterwards I noticed in the West Col guidebook that we has made the 10th anniversary ascent of the first real route.

There followed a pleasant evening in a Helsby pub playing darts where I correctly predicted that ABBA would win the Eurovision contest which was on the telly.

Anyway to Big Groove. Some years later I was there again with Chris. We did Rat Race and due to the time I assumed that would do for the day. Chris had other ideas, we scurried along the traverse, soloed up and down the Gogarth Pinnacle and embarked on it. I ended up following the big pitch in near darkness. On the way back to the car park we came across a small heathland fire which we did our best to extinguish with half empty water bottles and straining bladders. 

Anyway just rambling prompted by Neil's excellent article.

My memory was there was a significant accident on big groove on 29 Sep, 2012 whilst I was on DOWH and this involved a rockfall but I could be wrong about the accident site. There was certainly a helicopter buzzing close in to us before going back and forth round to main cliff. Was a bit of an epic climbing as a 3 and the ropes jammed on the last pitch so I ended up essentially soloing out the 3rd pitch as the last man whilst the helicopter was uncomfortably close and I might have given Prince William the rods.

Also I remember this thread about the flake going in 2019

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/big_groove_gogarth_rockfall-...

There was certainly an accident in 2016 but if it involved any rockfall is not clear. 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/gogarth_big_groove_leader-64677...?

Really enjoyed the article. I also climbed the big groove during that magical period of improving through the low E grades, most of them on Gogarth! It was 2019 and I remember struggling to match P2 to the guidebook description, and then really struggling to flop onto the belay ledge, miles above some micro wires. Thankfully I didn’t see the logbook beforehand as we would never have tried it had we known. Ignorance is bliss!

I climbed Big Groove some time in the late 80s. We started late in the day and, having neglected to bring head torches, ended up climbing the final groove in total darkness illuminated only by the flashes of the lighthouse. Fortunately the climbing lent itself to this sort of stop-motion ascent, which was amusing both at the time and in retrospect.

Ah, the UKC article I read a day too late! Quite a prolonged scare on most of the hard pitch. Felt like a 1 star pitch now but a 2 star experience overall. The spike at the top of the scar could do with trundling.

It seems unlikely that anyone who wanted to climb Big Groove would trundle something for the sake of it

It seems vanishingly unlikely that the flake was trundled to me. Just because something has taken a climber's weight in the past does not mean it always will!

I can't remember much about Big Groove, but I think there is sometimes a good case for trundling. 

If I climbed a flake and felt it move significantly and unexpectedly then I would warn my second. They might give it a wobble once in a safe position. If it was obviously on the brink of falling, and would pose a serious risk to future parties, then trundling it could be the right thing to do.

Obviously a fair bit of judgment would be required, and it would depend on the crag and rock type. Leaving things alone should be the default. We are not talking about trundling The Hatchling (f7C+) here, but diffusing landmines that could kill another party. 

I can't see it being a trundling either. Can't see why, or how someone would have shifted that flake. 

Might be sacrosanct but it's still a sea cliff and nature gets a vote.

Hi Neil

I was the person you were climbing with on Dream of White Horses, it was 1979. Maurice was "the driver" to North Wales and we stayed in Glan Dena, the MAM hut. Maurice was also on the climb and came up behind us. We all finished together. Sarah.

I remember doing this in about 1987. It stands out not because of the quality of the route but because of the stage that I was I at in my climbing. Just breaking into E3 (mainly because of my climbing partner's drive) so I always felt we were going to stretch ourselves. But at the same time I was free and easy, limber and unaverse in a way I can only dream of now.

We had a laugh on the traverse in, knowing it was high tide, but calm. The sea had a greedy slurp to it, a slow swell, but ultramarine under the sky. Halfway across, the swell increased once, high enough to wet our nuts but not just enough to wash us off. Retrospectively we thought it was the ferry but I'm not convinced that it wasn't just some random wave motion from the deep blue.

Doing the first pitch of Pentathol is no big deal in the grand scheme of cosmic outfreakingness but I liked cranking up that pitch with confidence and not much gear and wet shoes. Of the second pitch I remember not much as I was seconding and the third (which I led) mainly hairy lichen.

The flake probably fell into the sea because it wanted to. That route was always seen as a hard rock tick because it was a good line but not such good climbing and that is how I remember it.

But I remember it big!

TRex, Merlin Direct, Big Groove...

Is there a serial trundler on the loose?

Not to mention Cougar. Some effort levering all that off

You left the Bonatti Pillar off your list…

Some routes are changed and some gone forever. Is there a coveted last ascent list?

Deer Beild buttress?

Also Harlin/Robbins, French Direct, Gross, Absolu and Destivelle! There might have been a gnarly Polish route somewhere in the mlx as well - but I'm not sure about that one. 

Pretty sure it was Poles who climbed the huge corner system to the right of the Bonatti, it was really obvious in the full length pull out poster in one of the Gaston tabletop books. 

Could be the shear line of the right side of the rock fall. Half the route might still be there!

Back on topic, avoided Big Groove for years, there always seemed more appealing routes to climb at Gogarth. Finally about 1987, I think , finally got round to doing it with boB of this parish. Only vague memory is of climbing up a corner

Back onto thread drift!

Wasn't aware of that route, Rick. It's not the one I'm thinking of - at least, I don't think it is. I recall coming across a topo - probably in a print magazine, probably early/mid-1990s - that appeared to illustrate a route that started from the upper reaches of the 'terrasses superieures' a bit to the left of where the Harlin/Robbins used to be - ie either in whatever corner system lay at the back of that huge recess in the face (memory is hazy) or in one of the crack systems up its left wall. As the face narrows with height I guess it would probably have had to merge with one of the American lines to either side - maybe at the German Bivouac. It had an unlikely grade - IV+ A1, or similar - but I think that one of the FA team had 'form' in that respect; a sort of Polish France Knez or Igor Koller, if you will. I can't recall the name now but I think it was very short; probably only four letters, of which none appeared to be a vowel - although I'm sure that Welsh speakers would have spotted a few!

I don't think I imagined it - but alternative details 'might be available'. 

'Francek' Knez, of course. Surprised that autocorrect didn't have a go at 'Knez'! 

My recollection of Big Groove climbed circa 1980 with Kim Green also is of a pleasant but steady first pitch which I led then a short steep 5c wall pitch which Kim led. Don't remember anything about the flake. I then led a long hairy, grassy corner which wasn't particularly hard. 

I think we were both a bit underwhelmed with the route at the time.