UKC

First post from Thundercat for quite a while.  Been a-lurking and a-reading, but not a-contributing.  I hope you're all doing well.

Here's a long and boring story, looking for anyone who has gone through something remotely similar who can offer their advice or stories.  Not about me this time, thankfully.  About a pal.  Met him at Uni around 1994 and we formed an instant bond because we were the only two Northerners in a hall full of Southerners and just got on like a house on fire.  We both failed Uni spectacularly because of beer and smoking w**d and non-attendance but in the spirit of not looking back it was an epic time and lots of good memories (and debt).  I stayed down there to work for another three of four years, he came back to Yorkshire.

Stayed in touch for a while but gradually lost touch.  Probably haven't spoken to him for about ten years. There's been a lot of tragedies in his life with family members passing early, and I heard recently via mutual friends on fbook that there's been more.  I paid him a surprise visit at the weekend and was pretty upset at what I saw.  Clearly at some stage of serious alcoholism.  Looks like a beanpole, smelled like he hadn't showered for a good few days and was already a couple of drinks down.  His house (inherited from his parents when they passed) looks abandoned and due to leakage and no heating reeks of damp.  He's staying at a friends house at the moment who is away travelling because although his house is kind of liveable, it doesn't seem healthy what with the mould, and the fact the heating is knackered.  He says he has to have a couple of drinks in the morning to stop the shakes and I had a few cups of tea with him over the course of about four hours, and he got through a bottle of rum and a couple of j**nts.  We had picked up 4 bottles after I met him at the local Aldi so I'll bet after I left he'll have made a dent in those too.

Can't get him out of my head.  He was one of those lads at uni who was effortlessly good looking and was fighting the lasses off with a stick.  Tons of mates, a natural charmer, people flocked to him.  It was great being his mate, we had a ton of adventures together.  I wonder sometimes if that was his downfall - everything sort of came to him quite easily and he had a naturally laid back approach to life.  There was always time for the serious stuff later but first "let's have a quick pint / sp*iff".  I think when we parted he came back and carried on without much direction.  From the bits I'm piecing together most of his close family has passed away, he's alienated a few local mates and people (he can hold a grudge once you get on the wrong side of him), and I think his other local mates have done what I've done - settled down, got a job, had a family etc.  He mentioned that some other people avoid him a bit which may or may not be down to his situation...It's not nice seeing someone in such a state, and perhaps he's become one of those people who always seem to bum a couple of quid off you every time they see you.  That may not be the case. I know he's not working and is claiming sickness benefit, but not sure how far that goes. (does alcoholism qualify you for sickness benefit?)

I'm really gutted for the state he's in.  We talked about him turning things around.  He's going to get off the booze and start working next year.  He's going to get builders in to look at the house and get it fixed up, get the heating sorted.  He's also talked about selling it off to developers for a discount and taking the money and buggering off to abroad to open a bar and live on a beach somewhere. But it's always tomorrow, or next week or after he's finished rolling another j*int.  And when he mentioned a lump sum, he talked about locking it away in a high interest account and drawing just enough to live on...but I know he'd burn through it in a couple of years and pretty much drink himself to d**th at a much quicker rate rather than what he's doing now.  He talked about whether its too late to settle and have a family. I don't know.  Maybe it is.  He could have had his pick of the ladies 30 years ago but that was then.

He had so much potential.  He could honestly charm the birds out of the trees, but the beer and the w**d and the easy life have always been so much more attractive to him and he's always had the support to fall back on (I mean, he's got a paid for house sitting there...I've been working all my life and I've still got a mortgage to pay off).  he's 51 now.  There is literally nothing in his life between waking up and going to bed apart from booze and w**d.

I've got loads in my life to fill the void - mostly family - and I still found it a bit of a challenge to quit the booze.  I feel so sorry for him but have no idea how to help him.  I remember going into his room in halls with some others and trying to drag him out of his bed so that he'd go to lectures / exams and that was in his early twenties.  That behaviour was already baked in, but he's been living it ever since.  I don't know if he can change.  

I want to try and help him, but I'm also very realistic about my chances.  And being utterly selfish...I need to keep him a little bit at arms length to ringfence my own life a bit.  I'm at a really happy place in my own life.  I've got no temptation for alcohol and dr*gs now at all so I wouldn't see him leading me astray but it's more the chaos that tends to come with him.  We live about 60 miles apart now, I've not shared my new address or mobile number (currently speaking through works number which I can screen).  I have a feeling that if I offer 'too' much help, he may become slightly dependant on me in the absence of the family and friend network he's no longer got around him...and then it becomes a full time job.  And I just don't have the energy for that.  I hope that doesn't sound too selfish.  

Man I really wish I could help him.  I've fired off a mail to a local alcohol abuse organisation in his area asking for local support groups.  I'm conscious that he can only get help when he wants it, and if I try and force the issue he might see it as interference.  I'm going to try and speak to him every week or so, and maybe swing by a couple of times a month. but I know him, and I know he'll just keep going and get gradually worse and then at some point I'm going to get a very bad message from someone local to him, to tell me he's been found.

Apologies for the Monday downer. Just to finish on a positive, TC is good, booze free, lifting weights a couple of times a week, early morning runs (more like shambling than running...but whatever).  I'm loving life.
 

I can't really help with this but just wanted to say what a great bloke I think you are and well done for reaching out to the UKC massive for advice and also for how well you are doing on your own personal journey.

I don't want to paint myself as some sort of superhero martyr here .  I quit the booze for a year, lost a ton of weight, got fit...then got weak again and it all went to **** .  I've had to start again, and it's going well...so far....  Must not relapse

He's a great lad and I love him.  I tried to make him understand that he would be the kind of father figure that any young lad or lass would love to have in their life if he did sort it and settle down - all he has to do is make those first initial moves to get his life sorted.  He's got so much to give.  I've told him about my lot and said that they would be proud to have Uncle ********** in their lives, and that I hope he can use that as a bit of a goal.  I want him to be a mate that I can be seeing in my 60's, 70's, until one of it carks it after a good few more years.

At one point you say "I hope that doesn't sound too selfish".

That's just not possible, you can not be too selfish in this situation. Look after yourself first, last and always. Don't compromise even the slightest part of your own health, happiness and wellbeing. 

I would suggest you visit your old mate once more, and once only. Tell him he needs professional help, the type of help that you can't give, and untill he goes about that you're not going to see him again. Then walk away and don't go back.

Harsh? Fkin right, life's harsh. Refer back to the earlier paragraph. 

Well done for looking out for him. As someone who has battled the booze over the years I know how difficult it can be.

Very few will be qualified enough to help in this situation, which sounds pretty bad. He needs professional help, especially with the physical symptoms of the booze. Without proper help he might end up in a serious situation by coming off the booze too quickly. 

There's probably little you would be able to do other than alert local healthcare professionals and addiction support.

Good luck.

two family members of mine were alcoholics so I can speak to this. Two throughts 

firstly any help you render short of permanently removing him from alcohol is just facilitating his addiction. The quicker your friend hits rock bottom and seeks help for himself the less damage will have been done. That may be too late anyway but there is still hope. 

Secondly, if you are able (financially) you need to get him into Rehab asap. (Only he can get NHS support and his additiction will make him extremely unwilling to request it). A good friend would kidnap the addict and turn him into the rehab clinic. It may seem extreme but this is really the only effective way to save him.  My brothers friends did that for him and he's been alcohol free for 10 years.

If you can manage the second thing then you will have performed a great service. If that's not possible then don't feel bad about turning your back on him. That *might* just precipitate the crisis that finally breaks through to the man inside the addiction. 

An excellent post altogether, and this point is particularly well put. 

Chapeau

I can understand the OPs feelings. Having been sucesfull yourself you really wish that others could do the same. And it really must be quite hartbreakingly frustrating. But, any efforts are extremely unlikely to work because fundamentaly the sucess you had came from within.

Very glad to hear your in a good place and doing well. 

Re your mate, the only thing you can do is sit him down and talk to him. He needs help but and I speak from multiple experiences here, he won't take any help until he decides he has a problem. 

Talk to him, give him food for thought and decide how involved you want to / can get. Maybe try steer him towards something like Andys Man Club. 

Cheers pal.  Still watching out for your van on the motorway (and on Woodhead Pass on the way over to see this mate, actually).  Still haven't seen you again

To you and all the others - you're all saying the same thing and I know you're all bang on the money when you say he ultimately he has to accept he has a problem (and deep down he knows he has got one)  and that he has to do this himself.  And right now he's of the opinion that he will do something "one day", but that day probably won't come for a very long time.  I know that anything I try and press on him when he's not in the right frame of mind will just seem to be a nuisance, there'll be denial and all I'll hear is "yeah, yeah, yeah, I will do mate, I promise"

I think sadly the ultimatum thing is probably looking like the right thing to do, and turning my back on him until he takes concrete steps in the right direction may be the shocker he needs even though I'll beat the sh*t out of myself for it.  I can foresee the next few meetings being like the one at the weekend - sitting around for a couple of hours, talking about stuff he's going to "get round to doing" eventually while he gets through another couple of bottles of rum, then leaving and him promising that he will definitely sort himself out.

Not sure how many people watched the first series of True Detective, but seeing him again reminded me of that a little bit - the Matthew Mconaughey character is young and fit and polished throughout the 'flashback' scenes, and then you see him in the 'current day', and he's the same guy but looks absolutely ravaged and traumatised.  Bit of a dramatic diversion there - but that's what kept going through my head as I was talking to him.

Andy's Man Club is a sound idea....

Yeah, I read around a lot about alcohol addiction when I first started to think that maybe mine was a bit deeper than I thought.  Mine were anxiety feelings, moods, lack of sleep after the first week of going booze free.  That frightened the hell out of me and made me even more determined to quit for a long period.  

But his description of the shakes is obviously showing that's he's a lot further down that hole.  And I know that going cold turkey at this point is not advisable and probably needs medical supervision.  To see someone down a bottle of rum over the course of a couple of hours and show zero sign of intoxication....that's probably something I would have described as legendary when I was young and stupid but at the weekend it was shocking.

So sad mate.

Can't give any advice about your mate, can only sympathise about it being a very difficult situation and kudos to you for caring. But for yourself it sounds like you're doing well. Just a point - you say you relapsed and then had to start again - that means you're strong enough to pull out of any future relapse. So if you do relapse in the future, don't beat yourself up about it - just remember that you are strong.

Never lose sight of this bit. You can be there to help and support but the desire for change needs to come from him. You can't force it but neither should you beat yourself up if it doesn't work out.

No, it means I'm a complete moron pal, sorry   I did a full year, lost between 3 and 4 stone, felt great.  It wasn't even a daily battle of willpower against not drinking.  I was able to think about alcohol in a really positive way and didn't feel tempted at all.  So what did I do to celebrate a year of sobriety?  I had a pint and only a complete moron would do that.  It woke up the beer demon, and then I got back into it again.  I've had a few weeks off it since then but always just gave in.  But now I'm back in the proper mindset again for a decent spell and I think I've finally clicked that I just can't drink full stop.  One will lead to another.  

Totally appreciate that some people can have one or two a week / month.  But it's not me.  Took me long enough to realise it, hahaha

I think there's also the realisation in all of this,  when I saw him that "there but for fortune", etc.  I've not really dabbled in that many vices to be honest, but booze, fags and w**d...., there's never been any half measures and I've always gone at them full tilt.  It's really only been the family that has kept me grounded, and especially the grand daughters for the last few years.  It's been the thought of wanting to live as long as possible to see them grow, and to be fit and healthy (and wealthy) enough to enjoy the time with them.  And the thought of them visiting unannounced and seeing a ton of empty beer cans on the floor of the man cave.  Without that head wind at the fore front of my mind or loving people to ground me I don't think I'd be a million miles away from my mate right now.  

So yeah.  There' a family funeral happening up there at the weekend.  I think I'll head up the weekend after and have that frank talk with him.

This is familiar to me, I’ve got a university pal in the same state and has been for 30 years, it’s a wonder he’s still alive, there’s nothing you can do, that’s the hardest bit. Just stay in touch and be there if he asks for help. Don’t preach or argue or try and reason with him, it’s a waste of time and if anything reinforces his existing behaviour. He needs to ask for help and want it before anything can happen. It’s dreadfully sad and heartbreaking.

Yup, I know.  It took a lot of effort not to preach and pester him at the weekend because I can come across like that (I can hear myself doing it and I hate it)....so we spent as much of the time as possible just catching up.  I've had a few days to reflect on it, and all of the posts on here are helping and percolating through.  

I've got another week and a bit, probably before I head back over there to see him.  Give a chance for this weekends funeral to settle down etc, get my thoughts in order

As others have said, he needs to make the decision to stop.  Nobody else can do that for him. 

His situation sounds quite like that of my late brother in law, had a hard-drinking party lifestyle as a young man but his friends all moved on, cleaned up their acts or died and he was left as a lonely 50 something man, no job, few friends, just slowly drinking himself to death, a process which speeded up considerably when his mother died, leaving him some money.  He was in hospital and had been told he had three months to live if he didn’t stop drinking immediately.  Got a place in rehab and actually gave up drink, w**d and fags.  

Then the magic happened, he met a woman, a recently widowed lady who was a bit lost in life like himself.  They ended up getting married and had about 15 happy years together caring for each other before he had a sudden heart attack.  

There is hope for your friend but he has to acknowledge and take responsibility for his situation and that’s a hard road.

Well done on your own sobriety btw

Blimey, that's made me fog up a bit.  Obviously got something in my eye. 

Aside from losing him , that sounds like a lovely story of finding his way through the badness and into happiness for a massive portion of his life.  I'm so sorry for your loss.

The first part sounds exactly like my pal.

Thank you

Good to hear from you TC, glad you are back on the right side of things, I know you had some sh*t to deal with.

A bottle of rum in one sitting, holy smokes.

Reminds me of one of my university friends who I haven't spoken to now for about ten years.  I tried to help her with her booze problem and it went wrong, with my wife leaving the house with our six month old and saying "I'll come back when she's gone".    After that there was a series of drunk phone calls until one day she rang when we were walking into town and I didn't have time to have the half hour drunken rant.  I thought I'd hung up but hadn't and she got to listen to a probably very brutal analysis of her situation from my wife and I.  Not spoken to her since.  Still pains me but I just didn't have the bandwidth with two toddlers to shoulder her burden too.

No advice other than make sure you keep you and yours safe and well, if there's some scope fo helping out then fine, but you and your family are number one.

Just wanted to add my 2p worth on the 'walk away if you have to / don't beat yourself up' advice.  I had a good friend from school in this situation and he became very difficult to be around and I wasn't able to help him as I wanted to.

Three months ago he was found dead at home.

I know rationally that there wasn't  / isn't anything you can do if they aren't prepared to change, but I'll always wonder if I could have done more and if it could have changed the outcome.  So my advice is to try as much as you can, and seek professional advice.  Adfam may have practical advice: https://adfam.org.uk/

Really sorry to hear that.  Awful.

This is what I'm afraid of as well.  Keeping in touch with him would probably only involve a call at the weekend, and maybe a visit every month or so.  I work full time, we're 60 miles apart with the Pennines in between us and with family life, I couldn't really devote more time to 'being there' even with the best will in the world.  I don't know what the stats are for someone at his stage of alcoholism, how quickly the descent is etc.  But I'm scared that at some point that's the call I'm going to get.  

This is very interesting. One thing that's leapt out if the frequent references to boundaries and enabling.  I need to set those (I've been careful not to give my address or mobile number).  I also expect at some point there will be a "I hate to ask, but could you throw me a couple of quid until my money comes through" request and I'll feel duty bound to oblige.  This isn't going to happen.

And to also resist the urge to rescue him from any situations his addiction gets him into, however much it hurts me not to jump in.  The need for him to experience fully the consequences of his actions and addictive behaviours.  Also to appreciate that any negative behaviours he exhibits towards me if / when I refuse is the addict reacting, not the guy underneath.

Going cold turkey on that amount of booze is downright dangerous. He will be at high risk of alcohol withdrawal seizures. He absolutely must not stop without medical supervision, involving inpatient treatment, benzodiazepines to prevent seizures whilst he's withdrawing, and nutritional supplementation to prevent Wenicke's Encephalopathy.

If he talks about doing anything like that, then make sure he doesn't.

Young and stupid people doing that as a party trick tend to go and hoick it back up shortly after when everyone else has moved on to the next young and stupid thing.

Good to hear from you TC, nothing much to add to what’s said on the thread. 

Thanks Becky.  I think despite saying he want's to pull himself around I don't think it's something he's likely to do anytime soon.  I just know him (or I did) and it takes a lot of effort and time to make him change course on anything.  The family funeral I mentioned earlier happened at the weekend just gone, this maybe a bit of closure for him.  I'm going to try and get over there on Saturday and take him our for a coffee or some food or something, see where his head is at.  And I'll mention this (without lecturing).  I'm going to try and spend as much time listening as possible rather than talking.  I have been reading lots over the past couple of weeks and I'm still overwhelmed at the amount of damage chronic alcohol abuse can do, and how dangerous sudden withdrawal is.

Cheers fella.  I've been lurking for a while, minding my own business and not saying much.  I hope you're doing well yourself. 

As others have said residential detox is the only treatment option. I 've know a couple of people who've done it and both said it was a relief after the chaos their lives had become.

You mention w**d ......I don't think there's problem discussing cannabis dependency on here, which he probably has as well as alcohol dependency. He'll need quite a long stay in detox as it's a multiple substance abuse issue.

If he does complete that he'll come out hopefully relatively healthy , but will have a lot to deal with emotionally so it will be up to him to access as much therapy and support as possible. This will be critical to a long term recovery.

I think practical help will be to asses if it's realistic for him to sell the house, fund a long stay at a detox centre, and still have some left over for some accommodation when he gets out. Help him consider the realistic options, and the commitment involved.

At the risk of repeating what many others have said, your friend needs a reason to want to stop.

My ex-wife and I split up for various reasons, but her drinking was a significant factor. She got worse after I left, going on benders, crashing her car (nearly went to prison), in and out of relationships. She tried several times to cut down or stop but never stuck to it.

She finally found her reason to stop when one of our kids announced they were having a baby but that, "We'll never leave you alone with the baby if we suspect you're still drinking". She stopped and hasn't had a drink for nearly four years.

I remember once talking to an addiction counsellor when we were dealing with a relative with a serious eating disorder. She said  that one alcoholic told her that being an alcoholic was an easy option. With a normal life one had family concerns, relationship worries, money concerns etc etc being an alcoholic all he worried about was where his next drink was coming from. 

"When you're on junk you have only one worry: scoring. When you're off it you are suddenly obliged to worry about all sorts of other shite. Got no money: can't get pissed. Got money: drinking too much. Can't get a bird: no chance of a ride. Got a bird: too much hassle. You have to worry about bills, about food, about some football team that never f*****g wins, about human relationships and all the things that really don't matter when you've got a sincere and truthful junk habit."

So not a lot different to being a climber then.

Well you're busy, there's your musical career and the constant fight against Mumm-Ra 😁

Your post resonates with me, through my own experiences with addiction, my own, and those of friends. It's a lot to talk about. Your friend is further down the road to addiction than I have been, but there's parallels. From what you've said so far, he sounds lost, but he can come back. 

The 1st obvious thing to suggest is AA. They have a huge success rate in helping people to become sober, and more importantly, stay sober. I've engaged with them a few times, and stayed sober while I was there. But, I'm atheist and no matter how much AA say it's not a religious organisation, it kinda is. But it works for many. They're also lovely people and the homebaking is great. You could find a local meeting and take your friend along, tell them it's a coffee morning. 

The other thing is the media constantly tells us there's loads of help out there, you just have to ask. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

That's a joke. There is help, but you have to fight to get it. I had to get arrested, then examined by the custody nurse, who realised my withdrawal symptoms, to be referred to various services. Legally, I had to attend these to avoid prison (possible outcome for your friend) but I quickly realised that these people were experienced and knowledgeable and cared about the job they did. Not all were great, but over the period I had time with 7 different agencies. Unfortunately I have to say that the NHS addiction service was no good, in fact I ended up drinking more. By far the best help came from peer led organisations, former addicts who've been through it. I still drink, still too much, but I don't think sobriety is for me.

I don't know what the services are like in your area but have a look. 

Good luck. 

I occasionally disagree with you, but that's a dick post

Stupid post from me, apologies.

Thanks for sharing that pal. I almost typed "it's sobering to realise...." as a totally unintended pun. But I meant I find it surprising that so many other people have struggled with the booze, you think you're the only one that does it, and that everyone else is grown up, sensible, and can keep things in check.

I think sobriety is for me. I just don't have an off switch and once that beer demon wakes up, hes there till he's had his fill.  I'm not missing the beer, or feeling deprived. Happy to be around others who are drinking without feeling tempted but this is when I need to be on my guard the most because he's a devious little bugger and tends to pipe up with a "go on... Just have a cheeky beer, you deserve it" 

Wish you all the best with your journey or where you are ... If you ever need a quick PM, please feel free, ok? 

No, my apologies. I saw some flippant parallels which amused me but my post was clearly inappropriate in the context of this thread if it caused offence.

OK. TBH I got it and on another day I might've made the same joke. Hey ho ☺

It would surely help him enormously if he had some enjoyable pastime to focus his life on. You, being on UKC, are obviously a climber. Have you thought of (dare I say, the obvious?) taking him climbing? Just supposing he liked it and got really keen on it … ?

I think that would be way, way down the line for TC's pal. 

Yeah, maybe a bit of a longer term target. I think right now even the thought of going out for a drive or a walk is a lot to ask. I have a feeling he'll be anxious about being too far away from a drink.

But you're right. I think the absence of "something else" in his life is a contributing factor. 

let's not muck about, if this is true "He says he has to have a couple of drinks in the morning to stop the shakes" then he's as full blown an alcoholic as you could ever wish him not to be.

this is not the type of thing you can overcome by just giving yourself a shake, pulling your socks up, and going out for a character-building walk in the countryside. the physical effects of withdrawal from this depth are real and can't just be overcome with a bit of mental fortitude.

I'd be worried that any distractions techniques and suchlike will just play into his denial, thinking his problems aren't to bad and are self manageable.

Mutt's post above is still the best and most concise. if you're going to do anything, get professionals involved.

I didn't ever think it was. I know he needs a lot of professional help. An offer of a phone call, a meal, a drive, a walk, or whatever was for him to know he still has a friend and as a way in to at least try to get him to recognise his problems and to seek out that help, and to know if he wants me to support him where i can I will.