UKC

I'm looking to book couples travel insurance for my 2 week xc-ski expedition to Norway, but it all just seems like a bit of a rip off. (BMC £320, Snowcard up to £500).

The big costs we're getting cover for are obviously Search and Rescue, Emergency Medical, and Repatriation. In Norway, SAR is free and so is state run medical care for UK passport holders (according to the UK government). Repatriation is the main cost we would have to bear, but surely an extremely rare one that doesn't reflect the very expensive mountaineering insurance?

Cancelled trip is another cost you'd want insured, but we are self-guided so the only non-refundable costs are travel - this is around £800 for my parter and I. When you subtract the BMC insurance costs, plus a £95 excess each, we'd get back just £290 of our expedition costs. Ouch.

Second thing is baggage, tech, skis etc. On BMC insurance they only cover pairs of skis up to £350, also saying that this limit includes the binding (something not specified in their wording), with a total ski gear cover of £500 (not increasable) - so for my pretty expensive expedition skis, bindings and skins (worth roughly £680 new back in 2016) you'd think I'd get back £405 after the excess. But wait!! For older gear you won't get back all your money - Dogtag say you only get back 40% of tech 6+ years old. Snowcard only say they pay back "the value of the items at the time of the loss" but give no indication of what their algorithm is for valuing your lovingly cared for kit. BMC insurance says for skis over 5+ years old you only get 10% of what you paid!!!!!! So I'd get £68, minus a £95 excess.... £0! Absolutely insane. 

It seems most of what I'm paying for I don't need, what I am paying for I don't get, and the only thing the insurance is really worth is repatriation, something that shouldn't cost £320 to cover. Maybe this cover makes more sense for someone with all their gear brand new, an expensive guided trip booked, expensive flights, and pricey local SAR costs, but that's not us. Barebones insurance feels like it's irresponsible for a big trip like we are doing, but I just can't figure out how we would benefit from a policy from the usual organisations when their policy wording basically guts the cover you assume you'd get? 

Suggest AAC insurance (via membership). Basic but covers any holes.

Just looked into it, $7500 rescue and $5000 medical seems a little on the low side. I can't find a policy wording anywhere? Plus I don't really like the vibe of them insisting I ring their insurer first to get rescued otherwise risk not getting covered.  

Not sure where you are looking at, it's 25000 euro, which isn't huge but should be OK in Europe

https://www.alpenverein.at/portal/service/mitgliedschaft/mitgliedervorteile...

Just personal experience but I don't think you have to ring aac insurer before being rescued. We did this and they told us to immediately hang up and call the rescue first.

I think they do want to be called before any medical transfer / repratriation though or it can be more difficult to get reimbursed- this is  going on what friends have said though. 

Whoops, it was the American Alpine Club! Different AAC *facepalm*

Looks like it would be £110 for a couple, which would cover rescue, medical and repatriation only. As Norwegian medical and SAR is free it would basically be repatriation insurance. We would have to take full responsibility for trip and gear costs, but would save £210 plus excesses for each category. Definitely will consider it. Shame it doesn't cover the arctic though. 

It looks like airlines have a duty to reimburse lost or damaged luggage as long as you report it in a timely manner, so this would be of some help if you weren't insured. 

https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers-and-public/before-you-fly/baggage/lost-del....

Not sure but I don't think the free Norwegian heath care is directly comparable to what tid get on the NHS. Years since I was last there but I think the EHIC only really covered dental treatment.

Maybe look at a general travel insurance policy (we usually use post office), unlike climbing skiing seems to be mainstream, so not sure why you would need a specialist provider.

https://www.helsenorge.no/en/foreigners-in-norway/tourists-from-the-eu-eea-...

It seems that UK citizenship gets you essentially the same treatment as a Norwegian citizen, for your stay. 

I used AAC and used them in anger a few years ago when I broke my ankle.  Yes it's only rescue and repatriation but that can be very helpful.  They were always quick to answer the phone.  They sent out a paramedic to accompany me home and flew me and my kit first class on Lufthansa back to the UK. No quibbles, no hesitation and very efficient.

But as you say in your OP, you don't need either of those.

I'm trying to sort out travel insurance for a family ski trip (France) at the moment. Hadn't thought about the Post Office, so just tried a quote with them - seems expensive, compared to other providers.

Probably go with HolidaySafe again - just need standard piste/off-piste (within resort). Not going without it, though - chalet I stayed at years ago had a story about one guest who could only manage a weekend, so didn't bother about insurance, and then shot off the edge of the piste, hit a tree about 6' up and shattered his pelvis (or something). Left with a bill of several tens of thousands, apparently.

Happy for other recommendations, though.

You could take out Snowcard's Adventure Plus policy. With £1000 cover for cancellation and £100 excess that's £148.50 for 2 weeks. Then insure your gear separately (contents insurance)? Take a risk on repatriation costs.

Personally I like the ability to tailor a Snowcard policy. They're a small company and you deal with the business owner.

Because of the nature of our trip (xc skiing in remote areas) we'd need Max Adventure. 

Yes, I personally wouldn't bother with insurance in your situation, but that's just me. You won't need rescue and health cover as you say. How much do you expect repatriation to realistically cost? The Norwegian health system is definitely advanced enough to not need any complex bespoke repatriation back to the UK on any medical grounds I would assume. Buying a flight at short notice isn't going to set you back that much in my experience if you're happy to go with the usual low cost carriers, and not enough to warrant insurance I would have thought. I've just flew back from Manchester to Oslo for about £80 for example, which I booked a couple of days in advance. That at leaves equipment, which is 6+ years old as you say. I would have thought most places are going to pay out the current value. Same as if you buy a new car and write it off after 6 years. Me personally, I just take out insurance for things I really can't afford to cover myself. A very expensive evacuation, massive hospital bills, etc. For everything else, I'll likely be paying more in insurance during my lifetime than what I'm claiming back, since the premiums are stacked in the insurers favour. 

Repatriation can be extraordinarily responsible. The insurance isn't there to cover you for a broken leg, because as you say you can just fly yourself. It's for if you can't fly without medical assistance. For example, without repatriation insurance, the cost of medical repatriation for a broken leg in Spain without travel insurance could be over £25,000, if you were unable to fly alone.

So yes, repatriation insurance (especially for high risk activities!!!!) is highly worth it.

I get that. Most of the medical evacuation and repatriation insurances that I've seen cover the costs of travelling for medical treatment, which isn't going to be necessary in Norway, since excellent medical treatment is available locally. In the case of your broken leg, that would be treated in Norway, by whatever means. I imagine there are conditions where you might be in good enough form to be discharged from a hospital but still in need of medical assistance to travel, beyond the standard assistance at airports, but I can't find any numbers for Norway after a quick search to predict such a likelihood. 

Depends how much you want to go home, one of my old buddies lay in a hospital for two years in SE Asia, paralysed from the neck down and his family finally paid something like 50 grand for him to be brought back to his wife and young child.

From Comparethemarket.com, quoting the Association of British Insurers (ABI):

the cost of an air ambulance alone could be as much as £35,000. In one case, the cost of medical treatment in Spain following a fall and emergency repatriation back to the UK totalled a staggering £124,000. And that’s just Europe. Medical treatment and repatriation from the US and further afield could cost much more.

You probably don't need repatriation insurance for a relatively minor injury or illness where you can probably get yourself home on an ordinary flight. It's for a situation where you are seriously injured or ill and need an air ambulance and to be accompanied by a doctor or paramedic.

I find this an odd post. How much do you think repatriation insurance should cost. Do you work as an insurance broker?

Unlikely but plausible scenario, you fall down a small ravine/glacier and break some ribs, your spine, femur and collapse a lung. Not an outrageous set of injuries for your trip. 

Who do you want to accompany you all the way home, a consultant anaesthetist or the first aider from Ryanair?

Wouldn't you just stay in Norway until a bit better in that case?  

Traumatic pneumothorax? Weeks in hospital but then flying in depressurised plane, with extreme risk of recurrence of this lifethreatening condition? I'll take the anaesthetist to take me back home every day of the week. 

Trying not to be to morbid, its also the possibility of body repatriation if you die. It's all very well saying you don't care but ultimately it's a decision loved ones and family will be taking.

That is a very good point about repatriating dead.

What's odd about it? I explained very clearly how the vast majority of BMC or Snowcard insurance for my trip would be either unnecessary, or due to their policy wording, functionally pointless. I'd be paying for health insurance I won't need, rescue cover I won't need, cancellation cover that would pay out less than the cost of the insurance, and baggage cover that says all my belongings are worthless and won't pay out. My point is not that repatriation insurance isn't worth having, but that the cover in my case is (in my opinion) bloated and overpriced. 

I've spent quite a lot of time looking into different insurance options for both private and professional mountaineering trips working as a mountain guide. 

I've also discussed this lots with my wife, an actuary (insurance professional qualified to calculate risk/policy costs).

The simple answer is that for activities which are fairly risky (like remote mountaineering), and have relatively small numbers of participants (like remote mountaineering), insurance policies with even fairly basic cover are really expensive for an insurer to deliver. There's not that many people buying the policy to split the very expensive costs when something goes wrong, which happens relatively often.

I.e. the BMC policy might look expensive for not that much cover to you, but it's not a cheap service for them to provide and they won't be making that much profit on it.

Not necessarily so.  The airlines would not allow me to fly because my leg was in a cast and I was on crutches.  I was stuck on a Greek island for 7 weeks. I can think of worse places to be stranded but even so

Ryanair first aid is only available for people in the extra legroom seats and then at an extra fee. It must be booked with full medical details at least 2 weeks before the injury occurs. Terms and conditions apply, not available to residents of Northern Ireland or the Isle of Man, selected routes only.

If repatriating the dead - get a direct cremation there and bring the urn back. 

Why waste time, money and effort shipping corpses around.

Obviously I realise some will have emotional, cultural and religious reasons to do so. 

I can see a problem with this, unless you are traveling with a particularly dangerous route in mind! 

It could be a nice little urner for someone 😉

two Eagle ski club friends had their claims limited to 750 euros last winter because they didn't ring Europ assistance first.  The AAC insurers are serious about this even when a phone call is impossible/impractical.  This was taken up formally by ESC president with AAC uk with no progress.  

Thats all well and good, but ultimately you will be dead and it won't be up to you or be your problem.  This is somthing your family/dependants will be picking up and if they want your body back you will be shouldering them with a massive cost. For many people this may not be an issue but it's somthing that definitely needs to be considered. 

Thanks for your reply. I should have added our claims were 7 years ago-  sad to hear our good experience is no longer the case 

The AAC website says

It seems to suggest that you can get rescued without contacting them, but once you're in a hospital etc that's the time to ring Europ Assistance. 

A bit of a horror story here regarding Europ Assistance. https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/destinations/austrian_alpine_club_insuran... 

TBH I think all insurers are the same, the brokers (ie BMC/Snowcard) are just that, and once your claim is processed you have the joy of dealing with the scummy underwriting team. When my Dad was diagnosed with cancer and we had to cancel our trip 2 years ago, the BMC's insurer (PJ Hayman) refused to pay out because my Dad had already initiated investigations into his throat abnormalities. I would understand if the policy said that was the case (as the BMC's new wording does) however at the time this was only the case for the policy holder, not their family members. I had to argue my case and eventually they paid out many months later, but fighting insurers was the last thing I needed to be doing when my Dad was basically dying of heart failure from too much chemo.

What would happen in Norway if you had regular travel insurance, had a climbing accident and needed repatriation? The rescue and healthcare would probably be fine, but would the insurance repatriate?

My guess is that if the injury requiring repatriation was due to an excluded activity then a regular travel insurance would reject it.  Break your leg falling down the steps of your hotel and you're probably covered, but break it climbing or skiing then probably not. This is why we need specialist insurance for these activities.

As someone has pointed out, these policies are expensive to provide and serve a limited market. They are packages, so you may find (like the OP) that you are paying a lot for cover for the more likely risks (rescue, medical, baggage) where any actual loss is likely to be small, so there is little benefit after the cost of the premium and excess is taken into account.  On the other hand, is it a lot for the less likely but considerably more expensive risk of repatriation?  If the OP were to go to an insurance broker it might be possible to tailor a policy to suit their precise needs, but I suspect it would cost considerably more than one of the off-the-shelf packages. 

Another thing to point out is that an EHIC card does not entitle you to free healthcare equivalent to the NHS, only to receive it on the same basis as a citizen of that country.  You may have to pay up-front medical fees which you then have to reclaim from the NHS on your return.  If a citizen of that country could not reclaim any part of that fee then you are not entitled to reclaim it either.  In most European countries state health provision is backed up by private insurance, so a citizen would recover any non-refundable fees that way. Tourists are advised to have travel insurance as well as an EHIC.

Tourists are entitled to urgent healthcare in Norway, but it's vital to understand the rules and who pays...EHIC "proves that you are entitled to coverage of urgent healthcare iunder the same conditions as a Norwegian citizen.... If you fall ill in Norway but your condition is not deemed urgent, having your own insurance policy is the only way to avoid a hefty bill.

Source: https://www.lifeinnorway.net/healthcare-for-tourists/

I think this is easier said than done. I took out the Garmin High Altitude Search and Rescue insurance for a trip to Pakistan last year. Ref Bruce Normand's excellent UKC article from a number of years ago on how many search and rescue covers are inadequate for their purpose in Pakistan due to cost coverage. Hence I used the Garmin cover which covers up to $100,000. I couldn't find any insurance that covered everything in one package with sufficient search and rescue cover. Hence I needed to couple this with regular insurance in order to cover medical expenses, repatriation etc. Problem is this regular cover doesn't include the sort of high altitude activities that I was participating in, which always leave me vulnerable to the wrath of the underwriters in the event of a medical-related claim. Note, I live in Norway, and the likes BMC wouldn't insure me last time I enquired. Maybe the Global Rescue Totalcare cover was an option from memory, but I think the search cover was still very limited. Going off-topic from the original topic relating to Norway I know, but it highlights the practical difficulties of finding proper cover for high-risk activities in remote areas.

Global Rescue is very specifically not search and rescue cover. It's rescue cover and medical evacuation.

I saw a mention of $10,000 search cover for the Totalcare on a spreadsheet put together for AC members last year, but never looked deeper into it as that figure was totally inadequate.

I note that you were not eligible for BMC insurance as you live abroad, but it's worth pointing out that they provide £100,000 of search and rescue cover. 

When a friend broke his leg high on Everest his BMC insurance brought him home. I've no idea how much it cost, but it can't have been cheap.  

If you’re so confident about all this, why bother posting it all on UKC? 

Primarily because a lot of people won't read the policy wordings and might not know how undervalued their equipment is by the insurer (10% for 5 year old skis, really???). 

Also because it is a bit nerve wracking putting your life and bank balance on the line when you make these decisions, having similar people input into my thought process is helpful and might give me ideas or perspectives I haven't thought of.

And finally because public discussion does influence businesses, as we've seen from other posts where the insurer joins the threads. I have a small hope that they'll read this and be able to offer better and fairer cover in the future. 

I agree   In Oct I broke my tib&fib and ankle in an innocuous little slip in Kalymnos  I was repatriated in an air taxi (private Learjet with 2 pilots and 2 medics) and was extremely grateful for this. It enabled me to escape the Greek hospitals (which provide no personal care, only medical care) and enabled me to have superior surgery back in Sheffield.  As I couldn’t weight bare, bend my leg or get to a toilet I would not have been allowed to fly on a scheduled airline.  I have an annual general travel policy that comes with my bank account and an AAC membership insurance.  After many years of resenting the cost of insurance I was extremely glad to have it.  It takes a lack of imagination to think that insurance may not be needed.  After 45 accident free years of travel, climbing and mountaineering I can now attest to the fact that it is incredibly easy to have a simple unforeseen accident with major consequences.

We got Global Rescue for a Greenland trip having decided that search and rescue cover was unaffordable. The deal was that they would pick you up and evacuate you to an appropriate hospital if you gave them a GPS position for where a helicopter could land. We accepted that we would have to evacuate ourselves to base camp in the event of an accident.

In general with insurance, what really matters is that you are covered adeqyately for life-changingly expensive stuff, not for replacing an expensive camera or buying another flight.

I believe you are correct, this is the actual wording. It does not require contact before rescue.

Note: before repatriation, transport, in-patient medical treatment abroad or transport within the country of main place of residence (not in event of rescue), you must contact the 24h emergency service (or max. EUR 750 will be compensated)

I'd be interested to know when these people actually made contact? This is the actual policy wording which doesn't mention before rescue.

Note: before repatriation, transport, in-patient medical treatment abroad or transport within the country of main place of residence (not in event of rescue), you must contact the 24h emergency service (or max. EUR 750 will be compensated)

Wrong - the BMC insurance is ridiculously expensive. I did a quote with them for a family ski trip, but to do that, you have to take the "Alpine and Ski" option, which includes a ton of other risky activities (rock climbing, etc) that we're not going to be doing and is therefore >4x the cost of other quotes I've got!

Surely it’s not expensive, just the wrong product for your needs?

BMC insurance is not aimed at family ski trips. There is a hint in the "Alpine and Ski" thing.

There is an option in there for "Family".

Well if a family were doing proper Alpine stuff in conjunction with the skiing it might make sense. 

Admittedly this is probably unlikely, but it makes sense to have the option in general when they have walking and cragging policies which might well be done as a family.

BMC policies are designed to build on each other as they step up the rungs of mountaineering (another hint in "BMC"). Alpine and Ski assumes sensibly walking and climbing rocks will also be needed.