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Had a pleasant late afternoon/early evening ascent on Pluto (Raven Crag, Langdale) and there are two stuck Dragonflies on it, plus another BD micro where Savernake joins the second belay. We didn’t try particularly hard to get them out. There is also one stuck at Stickle Barn crag. What’s going on?!! Are more people using them or just easier to get stuck than other gear? Top tips for removal?
The crag only had one other party on it for the whole time we were there, good timing on our part.
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In reply to djwilse:
My guess is they’re easier to overcam and the cracks they fit in are so small its hard to get anything in to unstick them…
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In reply to djwilse:
They get stuck really easily.
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In reply to djwilse:
stuck microcams on
Left Wall (E2 5c)and Jingling Wall (HS 4b)
Post edited at 21:11
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In reply to djwilse:
Years ago, back in the days of rigid friends, I had a wild country nut key that had a friend extractor, which was a twin hook in the opposite end to the nut extract beak/hook thing. I couldn't afford friends and the thing was horrible as it made it really uncomfortable to aggressively wheedle out nuts so I swapped it for a normal nut key. However while I had it, I rescued quite a few stuck friends and it was great for that. Something like a dragonfly has a rigid trigger bar. I've not seen a friend extractor for along time (but I've not been looking), do they still exist? because they'd be great for stuck microcams
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In reply to CantClimbTom:
I've still got one and yes they did get annoying, tangled up in your wires.
But very effective, I used one attached to a very long stick to fish a rigid friend out of about a metre deep slate crack, a second stick was needed to press against the end of the stem.
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In reply to CantClimbTom:
They'd be shit for microcams. The crack would be thinner than the nut key.
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In reply to CantClimbTom:
I think the hooked nut key might be two wide for many micro cam sized cracks. The stuck ones today still had the trigger bar in reach but they were over cammed. The super flexible stems also make it difficult to push the stem in whilst pulling the bar back.
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In reply to djwilse:
They are easy to get stuck. Give those cams a small wiggle in a good-looking placement and all four cams are touching both sides all of a sudden.
In reply to djwilse:
Option a, b and c: more people using, easy to get stuck and many people are dingbats. If nothing else works, a hacksaw might?
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In reply to djwilse:
Have had a whole week in the lakes and didn't see any jammed micros but theres a whopper lodged in Little Chamonix (an oldish model but wasn't there last time I did it)
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In reply to Twiggy Diablo:
> The simond one appears to have hooks:
Nice. And a bottle-opener (cum bolt-spanner) as well. Multi- functional!
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In reply to djwilse:
Interesting trend.
Traditional thinking would be that micro cams are more 'advanced' climbing gear and that you don't need them on the vast majority of low to mid grade routes. I've pooh-poohed this idea sometimes because they can be very handy even on easier routes, but maybe there is something to be said for it, as there is less of a margin between a good placement and a lock-in, and leaders at those grades on average maybe aren't so skilled at placing them.
I tried to remove the one stuck near the top of Left Wall last week but I'm pretty sure it's impossible.
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In reply to djwilse: They like to walk in, and the small expansion range means that once they're in, they're in and there's no space to do anything. Unfortunate
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Once in Stanage, my partner overcammed a blue big BD cam in what looked like fairly solid piece of rock. (It wasn't a loose flake or something detached from the wall)
While I second I fought with the blue cam but couldn't get it out. Then I slided a yellow cam (one size small cam) just on side of the stuck blue cam. The yellow cam was the right side for that gap. I clipped the yellow cam to my belay loop and them loaded my whole weight into it. This gave "somehow" a tiny little extra space to free the blue cam.
I suppose the fairly solid piece of rock had some tiny margin to move...
It was strange but it worked.
Haven't tried again but it might something to try to free some other stuck cams
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In reply to Jesus_C:
> I slided a yellow cam (one size small cam) just on side of the stuck blue cam. The yellow cam was the right side for that gap. I clipped the yellow cam to my belay loop and them loaded my whole weight into it. This gave "somehow" a tiny little extra space to free the blue cam.
yeah I’ve seen this done on slate too to good effect
In reply to Andy Moles:
> Traditional thinking would be that micro cams are more 'advanced' climbing gear and that you don't need them on the vast majority of low to mid grade routes. I've pooh-poohed this idea sometimes because they can be very handy even on easier routes, but maybe there is something to be said for it, as there is less of a margin between a good placement and a lock-in, and leaders at those grades on average maybe aren't so skilled at placing them.
The argument that small gear (brass offsets, microcams etc.) isn't necessary on easy routes is rubbish. I've climbed plenty of easy routes where the nature of the rock means there's good holds, yet all the gear placements are narrow. Did a severe yesterday where I could've placed 6 bits of small gear in better, more secure placements than the bigger gear I did place.
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In reply to djwilse:
Whilst i generally agree, I guess the argument is that if the adjective grade was awarded before small gear existed then it would’ve taken into account whether or not it was well protected with bigger gear.
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In reply to djwilse:
I was thinking the exact same thing earlier. I did 2 scrambles this weekend;
1. Table direct - Cyfrwy arete - cam wedged at top, Looked like it had been there a while.
2. Bilberry Terrace - brand new cam stuck in the crack the 5m crux. Although I did find that one a tad useful to tie into. So thanks whomever left that there.
Must be expensive to be losing these though.
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In reply to Mike-W-99:
we were on Little Chamonix two weeks ago on Thursday and there were 2 big silver cams stuck in the big crack at the belay after the climb on the block and then slide off it on to the slab arête thing pitch, they both looked pretty wedged, i think they must have walked in if the last 2 pitches are linked together.
Post edited at 22:39
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In reply to djwilse:
There was a very new looking gold Dragonfly in the bottom of Irony, Quayfoot Buttress, on Friday evening.
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In reply to Kryank:
That's an OG Wild Country Friend as well! Basically a historical monument now.
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In reply to CantClimbTom:
Guess what WC is bringing out for SS26! Pro Key with hooky hooks!
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In reply to Andy Moles:
the one on left wall needs to go but not sure how.
its a yellow dragonfly with broken trigger wires (only on one side?)
it was moving about quite abit but it's inside a constriction so the lobes need retracted to come out. the wires are still attached i think, so maybe needle nosed pliers to grip the wire
i'm sure it was possibly a massive whipper which broke the wires, maybe it just needs an even bigger whipper to remove it
In reply to Euan McKendrick:
Let's hope the hooks are small (oldskool), unlike the enormous thing from Simmond that Twiggy posted, for sure that'd never fit in a narrow micro sized crack as pointed out by deacondeacon
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In reply to Twiggy Diablo:
> Whilst i generally agree, I guess the argument is that if the adjective grade was awarded before small gear existed then it would’ve taken into account whether or not it was well protected with bigger gear.
Many easier climbs were first given an adjectival grade before any gear existed, large or small. Quite a few of these have not been re-assessed in light of modern expectations.
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In reply to James0101:
> i'm sure it was possibly a massive whipper which broke the wires, maybe it just needs an even bigger whipper to remove it
I didn't place this cam but I did take a massive whipper on this at the weekend (no idea if that's what broke the wires, it was clearly stuck already). I did ab down and take a look but as you say it probably needs some pliers or something to get it out.
There was also a small cam stuck on Bela Lugosi is Dead when we did that, but again my cam retrieval skills weren't good enough to remove it.
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In reply to pancakeandchips:
> They get stuck really easily.
Because many people don't like extending, even when there is a risk of them walking, whilst being quick to place they aren't always the best option?
Post edited at 11:25
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In reply to Euan McKendrick:
> Guess what WC is bringing out for SS26! Pro Key with hooky hooks!
I have had a nut key with two hooks for at least 20 years, maybe 30. 2 on one end, 1 on the other. Probably designed for the original WC Friends.
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In reply to djwilse:
If you can get a pair of nutkeys into the crack you can use the hooked ends behind the cam lobes to simultaneously compress the cam and move it around. Works well if you still have the trigger attached to some of the cam to work those lobes.
Some of them are just going to have to wait for the aluminium to rot before the remains can be yanked out with a nutkey and a chain of krabs.
jk
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In reply to James0101:
I wonder if it had gone in deeper when I looked it than when you did? My assessment was that I'd be amazed if it could be removed without rock damage, it was in right up to the triggers.
In reply to Andy Moles:
yes it has
In reply to djwilse:
I think the seconds can often be responsible for getting them stuck, especially if seconding a route above their paygrade. My partner really struggles with microcams and often gets them stuck because she often gets to them with her eyes on stalks and just tries to waggle/rip them out, which invariably ends up making them much harder to remove versus taking a considered approach, disengaging them, and sliding them out the way they went in. You can extend them all you want, it makes no difference.
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In reply to PaulJepson:
> I think the seconds can often be responsible for getting them stuck, especially if seconding a route above their paygrade. My partner really struggles with microcams and often gets them stuck because she often gets to them with her eyes on stalks and just tries to waggle/rip them out, which invariably ends up making them much harder to remove versus taking a considered approach, disengaging them, and sliding them out the way they went in. You can extend them all you want, it makes no difference.
Definitely worth letting your second know if you've keyholed any gear (especially expensive cams)
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In reply to timparkin:
Worth them signing an 'agree to pay' waiver before setting out?!!!
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In reply to djwilse:
All these stuck cams are litter and they need removing. It's not good enough to abandon gear. I've not got a single cam irretrievably stuck and perhaps only 1 or 2 nuts in over a decade of climbing. I have had to abseil a lot for gear, though; and sometimes I've had to spend 10minutes or more retrieving something. People need to sort themselves out.
Post edited at 23:26
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In reply to James0101:
The wires weren't broken a few weeks ago (but it was firmly trapped where it was). Hammer and chisel to the lobes should get it out.
In reply to C Rettiw:
I've noticed on popular crags like the Idwal Slabs and the east face of Tryfan there are a lot of stuck wires and hexes that aren't stuck at all and can be freed in under a minute with a key. Understandable on beginners' routes, maybe some people start out without knowing about keys? There should be a lost and found at Ogwen Cottage.
In reply to C Rettiw:
> All these stuck cams are litter and they need removing. It's not good enough to abandon gear. I've not got a single cam irretrievably stuck and perhaps only 1 or 2 nuts in over a decade of climbing. I have had to abseil a lot for gear, though; and sometimes I've had to spend 10minutes or more retrieving something. People need to sort themselves out.
Ah, the sanctimonious absolute certainty of someone it hasn't happened to yet...
Jk
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In reply to jkarran:
It has happened (once I just couldn't access the head of a keyholed no.1 to guide it back out of the crack; another time, I remember a friend pushed a tricam to the back of a crack and it became inaccessible), I'm definitely not perfect. But, I have also hung on a rope for a long time, patiently trying everything possible until my gear was free... And I've done the same with other people's stuck gear. A bit more effort and responsibility is necessary in terms of placing and removing gear, or our crags will soon be littered with corroded junk. I object mostly to the idea that this is normal, acceptable and inevitable. I don't blame someone if they don't know how to get stuff out, but I don't think we should normalise the idea that it's ok for classic routes to become cam graveyards.
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In reply to C Rettiw:
The yellow flexi friend 1 was my personal removal bugbear. Not had any problems removing microcams to date (maybe placed better than average).
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