UKC

Featuring one of the hardest trad routes of all time, the greatest climber of all time, and one of the most ambitious objectives ever seen in single-pitch climbing, our Friday Night Video this week was an easy choice.

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In reply to UKC News:

It's a great video, but the UKC title and caption on the post aren't accurate. The Path is 5.14r/8b+ so the same grade in terms of physical difficulty and was flashed by Alex Megos in 2016.

There are also loads of trad routes which are physically harder than Lexicon (Tribe, Bon Voyage, Crown Royale just to get things started).

Great video and an amazing looking route.

In reply to Alex Riley:

The Path is given E9 here 

https://climbing-history.org/list/29/hard-trad-onsights-and-flashes

Not sure if that's being ungenerous but from what I've seen it is pretty safe with some run outs but all on steep ground with good fall zone.  In a similar style Le Voyage has also been flashed and is given E10 in the same list.

Lexicon while a similar physical grade looks to be a level up in commitment and seriousness so suggesting it is the hardest trad flash doesn't appear to be unrealistic.  Interesting that there was no screaming from Ondra until the end, looked like he needed to keep everything under control.

None of these have been flashed so not particular relevent to this discussion?

In reply to UKC News:

Lovely wee film! Was great to see the original footage of Neil's ascent again and what it meant to him. Nice to be reminded what an outstanding bit of rock this is.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

It's relevant because the article says it's one of the hardest routes in the world, which I'm saying is up for debate. 8b+ is quite a bit easier than 9a, runout aside. 

E grades in my opinion are a bit of a Red Herring at this sort of difficulty, there's routes or E9 6c that are about 7b and routes of E9 6c that are 8c, I know which is actually harder.

In reply to Alex Riley:

Which E9s are 8c? They're surely undergraded at E9? 

In reply to Alex Riley: Obviously the 8c is harder in that scenario except that it isn't for a flash is it, because the E grade will include the consequences of a fall - for a 7b, very serious, for the 8c, slumping on gear. How do you grade to capture this?

Once you start practising, then things change, but this is for the flash. If you take away the e grade, you immediately need to replaced it with r or x or whatever to recapture that information 

In reply to UKC News:

Nobody's alluded to it but the photography was impressive too. We could almost feel the fear, and the drone shots of the setting only adds to the atmosphere, it really ticks what is special about hard British Trad climbing on mountain crags. Thanks for that. I really enjoyed this.

In reply to Michael Gordon: If you look at the grading scale you’ll see that a super safe 8c+ comes in at E9. Ultimately most routes in years to come will have been climbed many times, a true consensus can then be made. 

Enjoyable film, very impressive ascent. Ondra's enthusiasm to try all kinds of rock climbing is lovely. He's mad keen like we all are but a whole lot better! 

In reply to Alex Riley:

E grades are for a notional onsight* as you know. Indian Face is E9 7b/+ isn't it? Caff graded Yma o Hyd E10 8c+. McLure implied a little easier in his interview for Climber (physically harder than Lexicon but easier than Rhapsody). Yma o Hyd is physically much much harder than Indian Face but is it harder to onsight? We seem to be at the point where onsighting well-protected trad. 8c is plausible for the super-elite: Conor Herson is climbing 9a trad. very quickly, I wouldn't bet against Ondra onsighting* Yma o Hyd tomorrow. Eventually, a brave/lunatic/unlucky in love youngster will onsight* Indian Face but I'm not convinced this will happen more often than onsights of safe 8cs. 

This is how the E grade is supposed to operate: an overall estimate of the likelihood of an onsight and, guess what, it seems to work!  

*Onsight in the UK trad. sense - unpracticed but knew of key gear from the grapevine or the guidebook - see many ascents in UKC logbooks! 

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I'm no expert, but at the upper end of E grades understanding the French grade is crucial. I think what Alex is referring to that the hardest trad onsight might not be an E grade at all as that does not reflect "difficulty" necessarily. Could be the most "dangerous" trad lead as a headline, but not technically the hardest perhaps. I mean, whatever, cool pics and video, but the headline seems a bit click-bait-ey to me.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Yes, Langdale looked stunning.

In reply to Ramon Marin:

Doesn't seem that click baity to me , maybe a question mark could have included but it certainly seems a very strong candidate.  Unless you think E grades don't provide any meaningful view of the overall difficulty of higher grade routes (not very on brand for UKC).

As discussed above the question would be what flashes/onsights from Remus's lists do you think are potentially harder?

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Yes a question mark would have helped. There's no way to know this is a harder flash than The Path or Le Voyage, so having a headline asserting this is just marketing

In reply to Ramon Marin:

If you're going to remove the consequences of failure from a trad grade then the trad bit become a bit pointless as the trad grade becomes the sport grade. 

Im generally not a fan of conflating, confusing the E grade as a,danger grade - it isn't!  But it is a component of it though.

Hard has many aspects, the E grade is an attempt to combine them, as you are well aware