UKC

Not sure how much difference it’ll make at this point (if any) but there’s a petition doing the rounds to try save Parthian Manchester/Manchester Climbing Centre from closure at the end of summer, so if interested please take a moment to sign. 
 

Thanks! 
 

Jay 

https://www.change.org/p/save-climbing-at-st-benedict-s-church?recruited_by...

I assume it's closing on a commercial basis? It's the wrong side of town for me but whenever I have been, it always seemed quiet?

Baring location, I can see how it will struggle to compete with the Depot. The bouldering has always been pretty compromised but the lead walls seemed ok. Now the Big Depot has opened.......

It's almost certainly a commercial decision, so will everyone who contributes a signature also be contributing a few grand to help keep the place open?

Sad to see the place go, was the centre of the scene in Manchester for a good few years.

I can't find anything on the internet about it closing though,

Edit: just checked my emails, got an email a few days ago...

Is it not fairly likely (assuming it is or can be made viable) that it will end up sold to another climbing wall company because it has more value in that form than as an empty shell?

It's not exactly in a desirable area, so is probably not going to be of much value for development.

It's Redpoint Birmingham that I suspect might end up being sold for development at some point - the fancy blocks of flats are rapidly encroaching...

Maybe, it's grade 2 listed building so future use of the plot will be limited. The competition is stiff though! It does have a loyal following but that's mostly people who live that side, not enough of them obviously.

I know a young climber who's gutted about it, they've got a nice community going there (and no they don't have a few grand to contribute). The petition may be a forlorn attempt to overturn commercial reality, but some are really sad about loosing the place so no need to ridicule MK.

On the plus side they have Blochaus nearby which I think is great, I know it’s not lead but it has a circuit board and that other section with a parallel floor that is about 10 meters high so plenty of stuff to train stamina

Yeah, I will definitely suggest that thanks. I'll take them to Big Depot too.... I'm on a Depot monthly so they're all I know now obvs!

Sorry, but not once has anyone said it’s not a commercial decision. I think the majority understand that very well. 
 

This was plain and simply about a bunch of local climbers (in a poor, undesirable area as people keep gleefully pointing out) wanting to try and save a valuable climbing space. 
 

Ie, by all means sell if it must be done but at least look at other options first rather than simply hand the place over to the highest bidder no matter their motive. 
 

If that’s pissed some of you off for some reason then so be it but imagine for a minute it was something you cared about 🤷🏼‍♂️

When you say try and save, the only way that makes any practical sense is if you're going to buy it. What other options are there if the current owners want to sell? It's a shame for the locals, sure, but it is what it is. It's a private business, not a council run facility. 

It's a reasonable assumption that the owners care about the business they've put everything into. 

Asking them to stick with it until they lose their shirt because you think you care about it more is an interesting take.

Because I think I care more about it?
 

That’s not in anyway what I was trying to say. 
 

I was just trying to do right by a lot of people I know who both climbed and worked there, that’s all.
 

And for the record, as far as I’m aware - the place has had its fair share of council funding over the years and very little investment from the business side for a long time.

Make of that what you will. 
 

I’m done saying any more on the matter 
 

Joined UKC to comment on this. Full disclosure: I climb at this wall, and so does my kid. I don't work at this wall.

There's plenty of other places to climb in Manchester, but I prefer to take my kid here, because (in my limited experience) the staff have "the right stuff". I've basically signed the petition to support the staff rather than to criticise Parthian. Though the sudden (and still publicly unacknowledged, by the company) nature of the closure maybe deserves a bit of criticism? 

My advice to other walls in Manchester: if these soon-to-be-made redundant staff apply to you for work, read the overwhelmingly positive comments about the staff on the petition and elsewhere online. These people would be an asset to your walls.

My advice to anyone considering taking over this wall from Parthian: there's a thriving community of young (and young-ish) people who are incredibly fond of this venue. Sure there's competition from Big Depot. But Greater Manchester's big enough for multiple venues, and it's getting bigger every year. Indoor climbing's getting bigger every year. With a few tweaks (perhaps strategically reduced opening hours?) I reckon you could get this venue on an even keel financially.  

End of preach. Happy climbing everyone. 

It is a real shame that the last of the Northern Parthian walls is shutting down. Along with Rope Race this is one of the first indoor walls I was taken to with Scouts and I spent a lot of time climbing there while at UoM.

However, its not difficult to see why a wall like MCC is probably not a desirable location to continue operating a climbing wall from in 2025. Compared to most other walls that are based in blank industrial units a grade 2 listed church probably doesn't make for an easy venue for a modern refit of the centre to bring it inline with some of the other offerings around Manchester. 

All that considered Parthian found a company that wanted to take over the wall up in Harrogate and that is still up and running. 

Rope Race still seems to exist, but renamed The Ridge?

I used to go there as a student too.

Yes its still there up in Marple, I must admit I've not ventured over that way of my own accord in quite some time. 

Is the building owned or leased?  Or worse a maintenance lease.  Short notice could be because of something expensive needing doing.

The only useful option for customers or locals is not necessarily to buy the place or chip in money as others have said, showing there is a large committed base of customers might help with another climbing centre company takeover, but i imagine commercial considerations are more important.

Should also let people voice their opinions about desire keeping a centre open 

For those who don't have access to cars, especially students, will be a big loss for lead climbing (even considering the number of other facilities in Manchester.

I personally feel that Parthian should do all it can to preserve the centre as a climbing centre or something similar as it is the centre that started the whole chain, it has received a heritage grant and council funding (rightly!), and I don't feel they have invested well in the centre over the last ten years, instead spending capital on new facilities. Obviously operating in an old listed building is expensive and understand that is going to be commercially difficult/impossible maybe, but definitely still valid for people to voice their thoughts on it as users of the centre, and at least the encourage the Parthian to be more transparent about the sale. 

It would be a real shame if is was sold to a developer, rather than kept on as a sporting premise, which has been suggested might happen but i have no proper details on it. 

You're making a moral argument, which is fine and I sympathise, but I still think that it is essentially meaningless in practice. Unless there are allegations of financial misconduct the fact they have received council or grant funding is neither here nor there. There is no requirement for them to keep operating in perpetuity. Plenty of businesses which have received council /grant/other public monies go under, or are sold. That's the nature of business. 

Nobody on here has any idea whether the business is viable or not so suggestions that it is from some posters on here are meaningless. Ultimately you and others are making a moral argument, that John Dunne should do all he can to either not sell the centre (to the extent of selling his newer, probably more profitable facilities instead?!) or sell it to someone sympathetic to climbers, quite possibly for less money than he would get for selling it to the highest bidder. I think this is naive in the extreme. Businesses come and businesses go. 

It might change a planning permission decision for usage, say change to residential?

Even if it doesn't make a difference, i think let people have their say, it doesn't matter so much about the commercial impact, customers opinions are valid. Strange that on a climbing forum so much opposition to an attempt to preserve a climbing facility and for customers having their say on something they are passionate about. Understood John Dunne probably won't take it into consideration and he doesn't need to, but that shouldn't stop customers voicing their opinions. 

Also not all decisions are 100% commercial, i'm sure the company would sacrifice some amount of money to preserve it as a sporting facility, depends how much i guess. Or maybe they wouldn't. Customers/those impacted definitely should voice their thoughts on this if it is the case. 

From their website: 

"2003 - The birth of Parthian

John Dunne secures the purchase of the Grade 2 star church of St Benedicts in East Manchester. The acquisition gave the redundant building a new lease of life and removed it from English Heritages Buildings at Risk register. The development of the centre kick started the West Gorton regeneration program which has seen over 500 new homes created a doctor’s surgery and expansive new filming studios. We are proud to be a stakeholder in the areas transformation over the last 14 years."

So yes, seems the company does own the building. Hence why the company/John are in a position to choose a buyer. 

Or other people can sacrifice their own money or borrow it or finance it another way.

I admire any person who has a go at owning and running it.But  with the greatest respect it has now seen better days. Just like Rope Race and other facilities ( Oldham, Abraham Moss, Altrincham, Broughton and the like),going back over time.

Perhaps those of us in the Greater Manchester area should celebrity the continual renewal and regeneration  of climbing walls in a great city.

Meanhwhile Dave over at Warrington continues to face zero local competition.

I've never thought it was that good to be honest. I understand the nostalgic impulse but agree that the regeneration and renewal of walls around Manchester has, and continues, to be great. Just need one opening in Bury now please... 

Quite a big ex-Warrington contingent at the Big Depot.......

Easily do both for me 

Parthian Wandsworth being sold too  

I'm sorry to read that Parthian Manchester is closing.  I've had a lot of value from my monthly membership over the last year, though I'm conscious that I'm probably not from the demographic a wall needs to attract to be successful nowadays (old, weak, crap, dislikes bouldering).  

It's a pity, though, that there won't be a lead wall easily accessible by public transport from central Manchester.  My unscientific impression was that it had a different user base than the other walls - younger, more diverse. Perhaps that's part of the reason why it looks less commercially viable, the seasonality of a big student base probably not helpful.

It's difficult to see what else the building will end up being used for, though. Aside from being a listed building, I don't think that bit of Manchester is much of a priority for redevelopment - there's much more focus on filling in the gap between Ancoats and the Etihad and building out north from Victoria.

Tough for the staff, I hope they can find work in the other walls.

Big Depot Manchester is on the Airport Line tram direct from Victoria

Thanks, 40 minutes from Piccadilly Gardens according to Google Maps, so yes, not too bad.

Really? I couldn't find any information about this.

They'll have to do more than rename it given the history of the former owner. I feel sorry for the new owners, but I'll never set foot near the place again.

Heard Wednesday’s the day, if you wanted to get a last climb in 

Wow, never knew that

(Google it if you want to know)

However I don't think I would in any way let that influence my view of the new owner who is presumably in no way related.  Only were I a victim would I have that association in my mind.

It is bizarre how this is all on rumour and there's absolutely nothing on their website or FB page.

Indeed.

I’m only pay as you go there these days but apparently an email went out to the monthly members. That’s where I got my info from 

It looks like it has been sold to The Font, their original Wandsworth wall was quite enjoyable last time I visited so not a bad outcome I don't think. Unless you has connections to Southampton and will loose out on access to that wall.  

Ah, that might be why then, if there's a possibility it won't close!

If it's been sold as a going concern to another climbing centre that's fantastic news, good for the staff too assuming they keep their jobs.

Edit: I mentioned this to someone else and they thought The Font had taken over Parthian *Wandsworth*, not Manchester.  But we will see I guess...

Yes, that's correct. The Font are taking over Parthian Wandsworth.

It would be interesting to know exactly what this email said?

As others have noted, there's no indication on Parthian's website or FB page that they'll be closing.  They were taking on new staff just a couple of months ago.

It's vague, but the relevant part is

"changes in the wider economic environment have resulted in significant financial pressures on our business which mean that we are exploring the future of the Parthian Climbing Manchester site and have now opened a consultation with our team about the future of the business and unfortunately therefore their jobs."

As a customer, that's all the official information that's been provided. I imagine staff and those with a financial stake in the business will know more.

The funny thing is, despite being in entirely the wrong location for me, I'll happily travel the hour or so it takes me to get to Blochaus because of the quality of the setting.

I've been to Parthian a handful of times but it's never really stood out for me in the same way (it also still smells like a church which brings up old catholic schoolboy memories in the way that smells do!).

It's sad to see these places go but if JD could have done anything to keep it going as a climbing centre I'm sure he would have done it.

What an odd way to treat your customers.  I suppose they've got no need to please them if they won't be their customers in future, but personally if I was looking to close a business I would be being honest with customers once the discussions with staff had taken place and not left them guessing as to when it might close, unless of course it collapsed, but I don't think there is any suggestion that that has happened (and I don't know if the Manchester wall is a separate limited company anyway so whether it could without dragging the rest down?)

It's looking rather like people might, on some random day this week, turn up to climb and just find a note on the door!

this is a real shame to hear. Having been a few times in the last few years the staff have been friendly, good music and routes. 

I have just received an email confirming that Parthian Manchester closed for good at 1pm today.

I'm sad because it's where we got back into climbing regularly after a decade or more break for small children. We went often while our youngest went through their development squads, until about a year ago when he decided that wasn't for him given its emphasis on competitive climbing. Since then, we made occasional visits, mixed in with visits to Blochaus and the Depots.

I will miss their slabs most of all, that's my favourite style of climbing and everywhere else is largely steep stuff.

Their website has now changed to only show Reading and Southampton with no comment at all.

Utterly bizarre how secretive they have been!  I've never known a business close in a controlled manner (rather than collapsing into administration) without bothering to actually tell anyone bar emails to those on a mailing list.  If nothing else they've done themselves out of a load of last-night business by not telling people when it was!

I wonder why?  Controversy about potential housing development locally?

The latest post on their Facebook page gives a bit of an explanation.

But as someone who has enjoyed climbing there for many years (despite not being that local) I feel totally gob-smacked that this has come completely out of the blue.  If I hadn't seen this UKC post I might have just pitched up there on Friday (after a 25 mile drive) to find it closed.

It's always been a great wall for roped climbing and I've had so many good sessions there.  Really sad to lose it.  The Big Depot doesn't compare...

Its very difficult to manage for any company these situations especially with staff and formal redundancy procedures. There  is no easy and simple way of doing any closure. Emails and social media are the only way of announcing it, you cannot really communicate to those who might turn up on spec.Even with email its a bit random these days.

A note on the door for those who turn up is possibly the best way.

They have now posted on FB, but up to now there was nothing on their website or on socials.  That's poor management, I'm sorry, and disrespectful of their customers.

Of course formal procedures with regard to staff need to be started first, but that's not hard.  Because a 30 day consultation is required for mass redundancies, unless they're all contractors (which I know some wall staff are), that means you could give at least a couple of weeks' public notice of closure rather than just allowing rumour to spread.

This has been mismanaged in my view, I'm afraid.  And I have no real emotional connection with this wall as I've only been there once.

I do slightly wonder if they cocked up and realised that their insurance renewal was earlier than expected and so they had to close suddenly rather than in a controlled way - even their FB is a bit dishonest, with a "closed 1pm-4pm" notice (badly spelt) posted 4 hours ago, and the notice of closure posted only 2 hours ago.  And then they've turned off comments on the posts despite nobody saying anything nasty!

I'm afraid this kills my respect for this operator, and I hate to think what the poor staff think of such mismanagement.  Indeed, maybe the sudden closure is because they all walked out if as it seems the closure wasn't carried out in a professional, controlled manner.

It is not in cases of financial expediancy and it also depends on the number of employees.It is for an SME ( which is the case) alot different.

Just be glad its not your business to make these decisions which are wrought and never easy.

Doesn't mean businesses should be immune to criticism for making the wrong decision (not to close which was probably unavoidable, but the manner of closure), and I certainly think this criticism is due here.  Even the final Facebook posts are rather unprofessional.

I've often seen small businesses declaring a sad closure (not the scammy ones on FB, real ones) and normally they bother to communicate respectfully to customers and staff unless they go into administration, which isn't what happened here.

In the end, if you respect your customers and staff, you communicate professionally, promptly and honestly.  I'm not convinced this is what has happened here - if it had, the rumour wouldn't have happened, someone would have just posted the closure date and explanation instead and people could have planned to enjoy a last climb.

When Birmingham climbing centre closed there was no forewarning, infact I don't think even the manager had any advance notice.

That's very poor too.

Sounds like even the staff didn't know it would close down today, as at the beginning of the week they'd confirmed to one of the local climbing clubs that they'd still be open tomorrow for the club's regular session.

I thought it odd too that they first post on FB this morning that they'd be shut for 3 hours this afternoon, then a short time later announced they were closing for good, with immediate effect.

Unfortunately as you are closing your customers really  are a low priority unless planning to reopen. Even then most would have forgotten or even will ignore what happened. 

If someone's only reason for respecting customers and staff is the possibility of repeat business then that person is no better than Bezos or Musk.

It has been sold to Font Climbing and will be part of Font Wandsworth.

Sad to see it being sold.

Sav

Thats a bit of a wild proposition. Businesses come and go as things change , these things happen and are nothing to do with Bezos or Musk. 

I'm not usually one for online speculation but being a local of the two Southern Parthian Centres I always get a feel there that it's under invested in and especially in the setting/setting timetables. The only reason the two walls in Reading and Southampton haven't gone under yet imho is they have control of the lead wall market in their respective areas. 

Aside from Parthian there has also been a merger with FP Swindon and Rockstar due to Swindon not being able to sustain two large centres competing against eachother. I think whilst we think climbing is still growing as a sport it may actually be reaching a point where there is a wall saturation and these closures and mergers will happen until an equilibrium is met.

Parthian Mancs was always quite good with the re-setting compared with its historic competitor Awesome Walls in Stockport; which was one of its big appeals. Although with the arrival of the Big Depot, AW seemed to have upped their game and are now constantly re-setting!

As someone seeking roped climbing, there was little I could fault with Parthian.

Staff member here. We did not have a 30 day consultation, we are a small team so it was not needed. Our first meeting about potential redundancy was Friday 18th.

We had a meeting at 1 yesterday, the third of our redundancy consultations. We did not know that we were not going to reopen, we thought/guessed we had at least to the end of the month, which is why we were planning the last Wed and Thurs as a big final goodbye for the squads and any regulars/customers.

We asked to stay open in our meeting for these finals goodbyes but it was clear that they were not going to stay open. We have had no access to the social media (a colleague posted the petition on it and since we have been locked out).

If customers signed up and opted out of emails they are not receiving the emails that inform the closure, so everything is word of mouth.

As I said I'm not saying it didn't need to close, in its present form it was clearly not viable as a business.  But you can close a business with due respect to properly and honestly communicating to your customers and employees *simply because it is the right thing to do*.  It doesn't need to be motivated by future profit, and if you think it is that frankly says everything.

Don't know if you're aware of the "shopping trolley problem"?  This is an example of it - doing something because it's right despite there being neither reward for doing it nor consequence for not doing it.

Thanks for that insight (and the correction on the 30 day thing), I am sad for you that you indeed weren't afforded the due respect you should have been as part of the closure.  I hope you find another suitable job soon.

That's probably true, though I find it odd that Manchester can sustain so few centres given its size - Milton Keynes manages two (albeit by the same company) and it has under a fifth of the population and no students (with whom it's a very popular sport).

Consolidation and acquisition of businesses is of course part of the ebb and flow of commerce, and is fine in and of itself, when conducted with due respect to customers and staff, which I think it is abundantly clear has not happened here.

Depot, Big Depot, BlocHaus, Awesome Walls, Rockover Strangeways, RockOver Sharston and Rock Up (kind of) in the Snow Dome in "Manchester".

Then there's Summit Up (Oldham), Substation (Macclesfield), Rock Over Bolton, The Ridge (Marple Bridge), NorthWest Face (Warrington) around Manchester.

That's quite a few options.

Wish we had that much choice in Liverpool!

 There is no right or perfect way to do it.What you personnally percieve as being right, is somebody else's nightmare.If anything the quicker you do it, then the faster people move on to newer pastures( and there are plenty of walls in the Manchester area to move onto).

I don't even debate when they closed it.

I debate how it was communicated, and now I've seen a member of staff's perspective above I remain of the view that it was atrocious and disrespectful of the management in how it was communicated to customers and staff.

They clearly knew they were going to close it yesterday at 1pm at least a few days before yesterday (and that had already got out - I had heard that as a rumour elsewhere).  That should have been communicated to staff and customers alike.

I think when you're closing a business in a controlled way (as distinct from entering administration, where you lose control the second you do so it's down to the administrators how it's managed), being kind to those people who have given their time (often at very low wages in this industry) and custom to make that business, even if it didn't work out, is absolutely and utterly paramount, and any senior manager who doesn't respect that is unworthy of such a role.  Sadly such unworthy managers are common in all industries.

Clearly we aren't going to agree on this so we should probably end it there.  But I think the manner in which this has been done stinks.

Thanks.  More than I thought - I hope the staff do find jobs quickly given the options.

I just think you are overblowing it ( especially for somebody who has been there just once). As regards the staff they are protected by legislation.

I use to go frequently in its first 10  years, but then interest waned as other walls appeared- and I am not the first along those lines. Its a very tough market for operators as the area has alot of different facilities. Sadly I suspect there may be other closures.

I don't think it matters if I'd never been there to recognise that this is a case of very poor management.

Giving people the bare legal minimum of everything isn't a great sign of a business that cares for its staff and customers.

Lots of bouldering options, fewer lead options and the new Big Depot blows the leading competition out of the water in both volume of leading available, the variety in wall angles and the quality of the setting (which I think is enhanced by the variety and number of holds available).

Even the autobelays are well set with routes up top f7c!

Having been there a fair  few times it alway struck me as well and efficiently managed and run ( opposite of what you say).Others have commented about the good amosphere for locals and it has its fans from the petition etc.

So I would suggest that is a very unfair Milton Keynes based criticism.

I think you've misunderstood Neil's point. He's accusing them of managing the closure badly, not of having run the wall badly up until that point.

I climbed at Parthian last Friday and fancied one last climb there  before they finished.  I checked the website on Tuesday 29th and all was well.  Turned up today and it was all locked up with a letter from John Dunne on the door. Looking at the Parthian website today Manchester and Wandsworth have vanished leaving no sign they ever existed, no news or explanation.  They know my email address and I  received no email. Friday last staff knew it was going to close but either didn't know or wouldn't say when.

I think this has been handled badly.

As for me, I diverted to Blochaus which I had never been to before. Had a gentle boulder and a coffee. Nice place, but if I am traveling so far to climb I want some ropes.

Correct.  While I did only visit the wall once, I had no complaints about it then.  I'm commenting solely on the mismanagement of its closure.

Had you ticked “ no email” in marketing preferences?Most people do these days so you had probably opted out. 

I mean there’s marketing emails and then there’s ’we are closing out wall’ emails 😂 I would like to think even if I’d said no thanks to the kids party and pizza night emails, I’d still get important ones! 

I get zillions of emails from climbing walls so doubt that I have opted out of receiving them from Parthian.  Have visited 9 walls so far this year and hope to go to more.

Sudden abrupt closure with no warning on the website is a bit naughty. I reckon John Dunne owes me £15 for rail and car costs this morning.  Cash preferred as I don't trust you any more.

Informing of the closure of a business isn't really marketing, don't you think?

I would expect such a business to post on their website and social media in advance of closure, though.  Others certainly have in the past.

They must be reading this thread, because today:

"You are receiving this e-mail as you have previously opted out of E-mail marketing with Parthian Climbing Manchester. As an existing customer, we thought it important that you were made aware of the closure of the St Benedict Church site, with immediate effect."

It went to the same email address as the previous message, but I guess someone pressed the "mail all, yes really everyone" button this time.

Your expectations are extraordinary for what is a ( with all due respect to those who worked there etc) a small business operating in a narrow market.

Its hardly a mainstream consumer brand.

In my opinion, they're really not.  Were I in this position, giving the staff (and customers) as much notice as possible would be high on my list of priorities.

A bit hard to judge because we don't know Parthian's side of the story as there might have been legal/commercial reasons why they couldn't say anything until the last moment - possible takeover where the new owner didn't want to reveal who they were, etc.
I assume that they followed the proper redundancy procedures though...

Looks like Blochaus has pulled a blinder offering a free month to Parthian refugees, no catches. Well done them.

This.

No, my expectations are basic humanity and respect for the people who allowed his business to exist by working and climbing there.

It was good for roped climbing but that was it.

I want to able to train when I don't have a partner organised, with at least 2 sessions a week over winter. A monthly pass then makes a lot of sense.... and then going to another 'brand' wall doesn't appeal.

I suspect that's what did for Parthian, not enough there to get people on monthlys while other locals wall do.

?? What in earth does that mean. There are other stakeholderd in a business and running a business is a  balance of  interests.  Amongst many other things.

Of course there are, but humanity and respect for staff and customers without whom a business cannot exist is important, even in the business's darkest days.

We clearly aren't going to agree here, so I suggest we leave it there.