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NEWS: Robert Jasper - First Ascent - Ironman (M/D14 +)

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 UKC News 14 Feb 2012
Robert Jasper climbing his new dry-tool route Iron Man (M/D14+), 5 kbRobert Jasper has redpointed the first ascent of a dry tooling route at his local climbing area of Eptingen in Switzerland. The route, now called Iron Man, is a 40 metre endurance climb, is a link-up of existing routes at this very steep mixed climbing venue.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=66695
 jameshiggins 14 Feb 2012
In reply to UKC News:

Looks like Malham ;-)
Cool looking crag.

Jim
xyz 14 Feb 2012
I just don't get the whole dry tooling thing. The photo makes this crag look ace and a really good spot for some hard sports routes. I know diddly squat about dry tooling, so please excuse my ignorance, but it appears to involve climbing steep rock using ice axes and modified crampons, ie a form of aid climbing. The activity must irreprebaly damage the rock especially as the tools must be inducing huge leaverage forces onto the axe placements.

 jameshiggins 14 Feb 2012
In reply to xyz:
> I just don't get the whole dry tooling thing. The photo makes this crag look ace and a really good spot for some hard sports routes. I know diddly squat about dry tooling, so please excuse my ignorance, but it appears to involve climbing steep rock using ice axes and modified crampons, ie a form of aid climbing. The activity must irreprebaly damage the rock especially as the tools must be inducing huge leaverage forces onto the axe placements.

In Eptingen sport routes and mixed/dry tooling routes co-exist, although they are mutually exclusive (i.e no tooling of existing sport routes). Mixed/dry tooling routes have been established there since the 1990's. It is not the new evil phenomenum that some people believe it to be. Some more pics here: http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39129

Jim
 Scarab 14 Feb 2012
In reply to UKC News:

I drytool, mainly to keep fit for winter. Its hard to make a judgement on a crag from a few photos, if you look at other photos you can see a waterfall not too far. On the video on another route in this crag you can see the ice drops coming down. Its hard to judge from here. And no, no ones proposes to go and ruing crags with tools.


If you dont like Dry tooling fine, just dont bother the rest of us that doo.




In reply to Scarab:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> I drytool, mainly to keep fit for winter.

But isn't that on chalk? In which case it doesn't count because its clearly just as silly, if not more so than climbing ice. ;-) In fact perhaps it needs a name separate from drytooling, like warmicing or something!
 simes303 14 Feb 2012
In reply to Scarab:
Who was bothering you?
 Jonny2vests 14 Feb 2012
In reply to xyz:
> it appears to involve climbing steep rock using ice axes and modified crampons, ie a form of aid climbing.

I don't get it either, but In what way is it like aid climbing?
xyz 14 Feb 2012
With aid climbing you place a sky hook and pull on it with dry tooling you place an axe and pull on it, same difference?
ste53 14 Feb 2012
In reply to TobyA: You could say all climbing is "silly" whatever it's form , then again you could not !
 tom290483 14 Feb 2012
In reply to xyz:
> With aid climbing you place a sky hook and pull on it with dry tooling you place an axe and pull on it, same difference?

arent you supposed to stand on it? thought that was what those etriers (sp?) are for. i know nothing about aid climbing but i'm guessing the physical exertion is a bit different.

In reply to xyz: Not really. When you are aid climbing you sit in your harness and hang from the piece of gear, in mixed climbing you are dependent on your strength.

I can totally see why some people might not want to dry tool or think it is silly, but seriously the whole "it's aid climbing" meme is a) at least 20 years old and very tedious and b) suggests the people saying it don't understand how to mixed climb OR aid climb.
In reply to UKC News: What people do in their climbing lives is of course, entirely up to them (providing their not bolloxing things up for other climbers)

However, I simply don't get this. A pure rock route climbed with tools designed for climbing ice?.

If I was fit and strong enough to do this sort of route (and I'm not pretending that I am) would it be ok for me to manufacture bits of metal to attach to my feet and hands that were designed to mirror the specific rock features I expected to encounter on the route? Could I use tools with interchangeable attachments that I swopped whenever I needed to make use of a different rock feature?. Could I climb the route in rock shoes rather than boots and crampons if this was easier?

If climbing rock with specialist ice tools is fine I can't see any reason why any of these further strategies should not also be allowable. So what does extreme dry tooling then become? - a test of stamina/endurance and the ability to contrive/manufacture the best specialist tools/aids for the job.

Hm, how interesting.

Sorry folks, but this all just seems silly and enormously contrived.
 remus 14 Feb 2012
In reply to colin struthers:

> Sorry folks, but this all just seems silly and enormously contrived.

That's lucky, it'll fit in nicely next to the rest of climbing then.
In reply to remus:
> (In reply to colin struthers)
>
> [...]
>
> That's lucky, it'll fit in nicely next to the rest of climbing then.

Fair point. I should have said much sillier and much more contrived than other types of climbing - and therefore, in my opinion, pretty pointless

 thommi 14 Feb 2012
In reply to remus: Bang on the money!! It is all silly and contrived, this no more so than most. People need to lighten up and stop acting so bloody holyier (sic) than thou. climbing is a bit silly no matter how you look at it, sorry. lets just have some fun shall we? as Im sure the slightly more enlightened on here are aware there is a time and place for it all! thats the best thing about it!!! gouranga!!!!
 haworthjim 14 Feb 2012
In reply to thommi: And it also give the next generation something to free!
 Jamie B 15 Feb 2012
In reply to colin struthers:

You should read Games Climbers Play by Lito Tejada-Flores. Dry-tooling/sport mixed/call it what you will is just another such game. Quite intense when you're engaged in it, but ultimately an entirely arbitrary construct.
 tom290483 15 Feb 2012
In reply to colin struthers:
>
>
> Sorry folks, but this all just seems silly and enormously contrived.

I used to get really annoyed with people who called DT silly and contrived but the more i've done it (and the more i've enjoyed it) I now totally agree with you!

it is silly and contrived! Just like bouldering, just like putting your life at risk above a dodgy piece of gear hundreds of feet off the ground. Why do it?! Their must be more constructive things we can do with our time?!

We do it cos its fun and a diversion from ordinary life. Each to their own and all that.
Some even say its good training for the winter but thats a bit too sensible an idea for me.

Eptingen as someone pointed out is as well an accepted mixed climbing/DT venue, as during a reasonable winter the lip of the cave and the nearby waterfall normally form good ice.

 pamplemouse 15 Feb 2012
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
> (In reply to colin struthers)
>
> You should read Games Climbers Play by Lito Tejada-Flores. Dry-tooling/sport mixed/call it what you will is just another such game.


You are absolutely right. However with one important point, LTF's games climbers play set limits on the games. Thus using a lightweight ladder on a boulder was pointless whereas using a lightweight ladder on Everest was deemed OK.
In dry tooling you are essentially converting monos and tiny crimps, or fingertip cracks into jugs by using axes. You are also increasing your reach significantly by interposing a metal shaft between you and the hold.
This is why people conflate DT with aid climbing.
It is surely a retrograde step unless you are heading in towards ice.

As for someone talking about watefalls earlier in the thread, there's the one at sector cascade at Ceuse.

Cheers

 remus 15 Feb 2012
In reply to pamplemouse: having not done any dry tooling myself I hesitate to comment, but there are 'rules' in dry tooling. Heel spurs are generally frowned upon for example.
In reply to pamplemouse:

> As for someone talking about watefalls earlier in the thread, there's the one at sector cascade at Ceuse.

Does it freeze? If so I presume it was done years ago?
 jameshiggins 15 Feb 2012
In reply to pamplemouse:
> (In reply to Jamie Bankhead)
> [...]
>
>
> In dry tooling you are essentially converting monos and tiny crimps, or fingertip cracks into jugs by using axes. You are also increasing your reach significantly by interposing a metal shaft between you and the hold.
> This is why people conflate DT with aid climbing.
> It is surely a retrograde step unless you are heading in towards ice.
>

Of course dry tooling is contrived, but that doesn't render it worthless or unacceptable But misunderstood by the masses, yes it certainly is. Many (not all) DT routes follow lines created by manufactured pick placements. These lines would have insufficient features to facilitate "free climbing". Closer to home, take the tube at Newtyle for example. Totally artificial, but what's wrong with that? Yes, there is an established sport route (Hurley Burley 8B). But that is also a completely artificial route with drilled holds, so in my opinion is in no way superior. A retrograde step perhaps? However, there is an unwritten agreement amongst all who DT at Newtyle that this route will be preserved as a "sport-only" route. Cool, no problem.

So, you see, we all play our contived part in whatever aspect of this utterly bizare and diverse game we play. You pays your money you takes your choice. Lets all learn to love one another. Peace man ;-)

Jim
 edinburgh_man 15 Feb 2012
In reply to UKC News:

I am so bored by this drivel - bumblies demanding justification for Dry Tooling.

Dry Tooling is Dry Tooling.

Whether it's done for training purposes or in it's own right doesn't matter. As long as people are enjoying themselves and are not causing damage to established sport / trad crags then it requires no justification.

I can't understand why people have to even compare it to sport / trad climbing when it's so obviously different.

This arguement was done and resolved long ago on the continent.
 iksander 15 Feb 2012
In reply to UKC News: Anyone thought of congratulating the guy? Must be up there with the hardest routes of its kind - great effort!
 tom290483 15 Feb 2012
In reply to iksander:

why congratulate him when we can abuse his mullet like haircut?
 irdial 15 Feb 2012
In reply to colin struthers:

blah blah blah
feeblesmith 16 Feb 2012
In reply to colin struthers:

DT can be described in many words but seeing the tools and gear involved, "pointless" is rather inaccurate..
 simes303 16 Feb 2012
In reply to jameshiggins:
> (In reply to pamplemouse)

> Many (not all) DT routes follow lines created by manufactured pick placements. These lines would have insufficient features to facilitate "free climbing".

That argument has been proven to be very short-sighted over and over again throughout the years.
 jameshiggins 16 Feb 2012
In reply to simes303:
> (In reply to jameshiggins)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> That argument has been proven to be very short-sighted over and over again throughout the years.

Please can you provide examples of routes manufactured for DT that have subsequently been reclaimed as sport rotues? Or are you generalising?

Jim
 Marmot UK 17 Feb 2012
Why don’t we ask all the forums Trolls a very simple question:

Do you have the balls to ask these types of questions directly to Robert Jasper face?

Marmot will bring Robert Jasper to this year’s 2012 Kendal Mountain Film festival for a full presentation. This will give all UKClimbing readers a chance to find out why he is known as one of Europe’s best all round mountain climbers.

Additional information about Robert Jasper’s presentation will be made available to UKclimbing later this year.

 Mr Powly 17 Feb 2012
In reply to Marmot UK:

Will his presentation be covered in tick marks?
 Michael Gordon 18 Feb 2012
In reply to colin struthers:
> (In reply to UKC News)

If I was fit and strong enough to do this sort of route (and I'm not pretending that I am) would it be ok for me to manufacture bits of metal to attach to my feet and hands that were designed to mirror the specific rock features I expected to encounter on the route? Could I use tools with interchangeable attachments that I swopped whenever I needed to make use of a different rock feature?. >
>

In all likelihood, Yes. That wouldn't make it easy though. The climb would still be nails. That's why it's cutting edge (or thereabouts).
 jon 18 Feb 2012
In reply to Michael Gordon:
> (In reply to colin struthers)

> That's why it's cutting edge (or thereabouts).

Or scraping the barrel (perhaps)?

 Michael Gordon 18 Feb 2012
In reply to jon:

Well yes in terms of it just being another link of existing climbs. It's definitely fair to say it lacks point because of this rather than because it's drytooling!
 simes303 18 Feb 2012
In reply to jameshiggins:
No I can't, but that's not what I said.

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