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A geology field group from Bradford Grammar School has taken 'samples' from some sections of Shipley Glen. This basically involved them hacking the rock and breaking the delicate surface skin in several places leaving ugly sandy scars below.
The damage was discovered by a climber who alerted the BMC. Graham Lynch, BMC Access Officer, then visited the crag and the BMC have followed this up with a strongly worded letter to the school.
It is amazing how ignorant some people are although it certainly isn't the first time that Geology field trips have caused damage to rock.
News report on BMC site - http://www.thebmc.co.uk/news_det.asp?item_id=900
Previous thread discussing vandalism at Shipley Glen - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=148058
UKC News - http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
The damage was discovered by a climber who alerted the BMC. Graham Lynch, BMC Access Officer, then visited the crag and the BMC have followed this up with a strongly worded letter to the school.
It is amazing how ignorant some people are although it certainly isn't the first time that Geology field trips have caused damage to rock.
News report on BMC site - http://www.thebmc.co.uk/news_det.asp?item_id=900
Previous thread discussing vandalism at Shipley Glen - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=148058
UKC News - http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
In reply to UKC News: This is terrible. However, is calling Geologists ignorant a bit rash? After all, isn't collecting rock samples what they do? It is my opinion that the only way you can educate those who do not understand how important the rock is to the environment (and lets face it - us) is by posting signs.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
Ignorant seems appropriate.
Surgeons cut people up. I don't suppose you'd want medical students wandering down the street doing that at random?
Ignorant seems appropriate.
Surgeons cut people up. I don't suppose you'd want medical students wandering down the street doing that at random?
In reply to UKC News:
Manson's now goes at V1/ 5b.
Only kidding - any idea where they did this? All the chossy rock on Baildon Moor and they elected to knacker the Glen
Manson's now goes at V1/ 5b.
Only kidding - any idea where they did this? All the chossy rock on Baildon Moor and they elected to knacker the Glen
In reply to John Rushby:
they could have been more generous and headed down to Ilkley quarry to create some holds amongst the polish
<ducks from flak>
they could have been more generous and headed down to Ilkley quarry to create some holds amongst the polish
<ducks from flak>
In reply to John Rushby: Kia Ora Wall - read the link!
In reply to Jon Dittman: I used to live with a geologist and it was explained to me that it is not best practice to carry out this sort of behaviour any more, whether it's on a climbing crag or not. It sounds like a bit of an out of date teacher who could do with some re-education.
In reply to climberguy: Ah well. That sounds fair enough - ignorant bar stewards!
In reply to Steve Parker:
Oooh Get you.
nice little problem that one, with a tricky reach if I racall ( been a while).
totally unacceptable and they of all should know better
Oooh Get you.
nice little problem that one, with a tricky reach if I racall ( been a while).
totally unacceptable and they of all should know better
In reply to John Rushby:
Not funny(!)
You just made a shiver go down my spine. That problem is yet to be mine!
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> Manson's now goes at V1/ 5b.
>
> Only kidding
>
> Manson's now goes at V1/ 5b.
>
> Only kidding
Not funny(!)
You just made a shiver go down my spine. That problem is yet to be mine!
In reply to Rid Skwerr:
Very true, we weren't allowed to go round college doing bad tackles to see how a torn PCL would heal, I believe they call it ethics.
Haven't most places got rock samples already? I know of many schools and colleges that have samples ready, so they don't need to go around chipping. Also, the internet, books, are these no help?
> (In reply to Jon Dittman)
>
> Ignorant seems appropriate.
>
> Surgeons cut people up. I don't suppose you'd want medical students wandering down the street doing that at random?
>
> Ignorant seems appropriate.
>
> Surgeons cut people up. I don't suppose you'd want medical students wandering down the street doing that at random?
Very true, we weren't allowed to go round college doing bad tackles to see how a torn PCL would heal, I believe they call it ethics.
Haven't most places got rock samples already? I know of many schools and colleges that have samples ready, so they don't need to go around chipping. Also, the internet, books, are these no help?
In reply to smithy: They do need to get out and get some practical experience, but as you say there are lots of samples in store already. They should be picking up small rocks from the ground to bash with their hammers.
In reply to climberguy:
You got it right, there is enough stuff on the ground to split open without hitting the crag.
Wonder if they would mind hitting the starting footholds of Crack and Corner at Stanage?
You got it right, there is enough stuff on the ground to split open without hitting the crag.
Wonder if they would mind hitting the starting footholds of Crack and Corner at Stanage?
In reply to UKC News:
This is all a bit high and mighty given the amount of "damage" climbers do to the rock.
Not that it all makes much differnce in geological time (even human time, given the amount of rock fall that occurs at many UK crags!).
This is all a bit high and mighty given the amount of "damage" climbers do to the rock.
Not that it all makes much differnce in geological time (even human time, given the amount of rock fall that occurs at many UK crags!).
In reply to ChrisJD:
Not really, as stated earlier in the thread, chipping such as this is also frowned upon among responsible geologists
> This is all a bit high and mighty given the amount of "damage" climbers do to the rock.
Not really, as stated earlier in the thread, chipping such as this is also frowned upon among responsible geologists
In reply to Simon Caldwell: Yep when I was doing geology we were taught to take samples from broken rocks lying around. Doesn't always work especially if the rock weathers easily and you need to see the unweathered rock (though I am not suggesting that was the case here).
In reply to Jon Dittman:
Well yes, partly at least. However, most of us collect samples by picking them up off the floor below the outcrop or looking at the outcrop in detail while its in situ. Hammering is rarely necessary and its important to be unobtrusive - not least because other geologists may want to look at that outcrop in the future!
Absolutely disgraceful on the part of the school.
> However, is calling Geologists ignorant a bit rash? After all, isn't collecting rock samples what they do?
Well yes, partly at least. However, most of us collect samples by picking them up off the floor below the outcrop or looking at the outcrop in detail while its in situ. Hammering is rarely necessary and its important to be unobtrusive - not least because other geologists may want to look at that outcrop in the future!
Absolutely disgraceful on the part of the school.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Absolutely. The school should be promoting best practice. Which, these days, doesn't include walloping geat lumps out of outcrops.
Absolutely. The school should be promoting best practice. Which, these days, doesn't include walloping geat lumps out of outcrops.
In reply to ChrisJD:
I'm sure there's a joke there just begging to be made, but i can't be bothered to work out what it might be..
> My point is that you shouldn't throw rocks in a glass house
I'm sure there's a joke there just begging to be made, but i can't be bothered to work out what it might be..
In reply to ChrisJD: I'm inclined to agree - I suspect that the overall damage to rocks from climbing (polish, scratches etc) is much higher than from amateur geologists.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
But in my day didn't and, as Univ students, we could and did lay waste to a boulder or crag quite merrily without thinking about what we were doing. Our only concern was if it was a SSSI. It's amazing how fast a bunch of geology students can smash a boulder to bits...
> Absolutely. The school should be promoting best practice. Which, these days, doesn't include walloping geat lumps out of outcrops.
But in my day didn't and, as Univ students, we could and did lay waste to a boulder or crag quite merrily without thinking about what we were doing. Our only concern was if it was a SSSI. It's amazing how fast a bunch of geology students can smash a boulder to bits...
The damage is often worse than just taking a surface chipping because you need fresh rock ie below the weathered surface, which can be cm's deep.
In reply to Andy Hobson:
<hijack>
To give a bit of perspective:
How about this being "Absolutely disgraceful":
(Have used these data before to counter the "disgusted of Tonbridge Wells" brigade):
UK Primary Aggregates Production in tonnes per year
Sand and gravel - tonnes
1998......98,315,000
1999.....100,953,000
2000.....101,622,000
2002.....101,397,000
2002......94,424,000
Crushed rock - tonnes
1998....131,716,000
1999....132,598,000
2000....130,307,000
2001....133,759,000
2002....126,568,000
BGS 2003:
"National Parks and AONBs cover 23.8% of the land area of England and 23.4% of Wales. In England and Wales 9.7% and 8.2%,of total crushed were supplied from National Parks and AONBs".
"Of total UK aggregate production, 38% was used as concreting aggregate, 27% as roadstone (coated and uncoated), and 15% as constructional fill."
That’s a whole lot of damage to National Parks and AONBs.
And the BMC and many others oppose new qauuries in such areas
Whether such quarrying is right or wrong is another matter!
<end hijack>
<hijack>
To give a bit of perspective:
How about this being "Absolutely disgraceful":
(Have used these data before to counter the "disgusted of Tonbridge Wells" brigade):
UK Primary Aggregates Production in tonnes per year
Sand and gravel - tonnes
1998......98,315,000
1999.....100,953,000
2000.....101,622,000
2002.....101,397,000
2002......94,424,000
Crushed rock - tonnes
1998....131,716,000
1999....132,598,000
2000....130,307,000
2001....133,759,000
2002....126,568,000
BGS 2003:
"National Parks and AONBs cover 23.8% of the land area of England and 23.4% of Wales. In England and Wales 9.7% and 8.2%,of total crushed were supplied from National Parks and AONBs".
"Of total UK aggregate production, 38% was used as concreting aggregate, 27% as roadstone (coated and uncoated), and 15% as constructional fill."
That’s a whole lot of damage to National Parks and AONBs.
And the BMC and many others oppose new qauuries in such areas
Whether such quarrying is right or wrong is another matter!
<end hijack>
In reply to ChrisJD: Chipping on a grand scale! Is this right or wrong? Ask the folks who's homes are held together with the stuff.
In reply to ChrisJD:
I agree - it's crap. But it's not really the same issue, is it?
How many jobs were supplied or revenue generated by a load of schoolkids being taught poor geological practice by some incompetent teachers?
I agree - it's crap. But it's not really the same issue, is it?
How many jobs were supplied or revenue generated by a load of schoolkids being taught poor geological practice by some incompetent teachers?
In reply to Andy Hobson:
My point is perspective.
My first post to the OP was that the response to the geological activty (pun intended) at Shipley Glen seemed heavy handed and high & mighty.
I'm a geologist (a very bad one, in so many ways) and the school shouldn't be doing it, but to get heavy handed in the light of what climbers do (not just chipping, but by just using the rock), struck me as more than a bit hypocritical. To claim its the end of civilisation (tone of some responses) is just plain funny.
I would have agreed with a more subdued letter to the school.
My point is perspective.
My first post to the OP was that the response to the geological activty (pun intended) at Shipley Glen seemed heavy handed and high & mighty.
I'm a geologist (a very bad one, in so many ways) and the school shouldn't be doing it, but to get heavy handed in the light of what climbers do (not just chipping, but by just using the rock), struck me as more than a bit hypocritical. To claim its the end of civilisation (tone of some responses) is just plain funny.
I would have agreed with a more subdued letter to the school.
In reply to UKC News:Wonder what the school would think if a group of climbers appeared and started knocking hell out of their walls?
In reply to UKC News: I had a look at what I think is their website:
http://www.bgs.bradford.sch.uk
quote
The school has easy access to the Dales and the Lake District, which provide the ideal environment for outdoor activities such as fell walking, climbing, abseiling, mountain biking, sailing, the CCF and The Duke of Edinburgh's Award Scheme.
Outdoor activities extend well beyond the local region. Ski parties visit Alpine resorts; mountaineering expeditions tackle the Scottish Highlands in winter and summer conditions; there is an annual watersports trip to the Ardeche gorge; and for year 7 pupils (age 11), there is a wonderful residential weekend each September at an outdoor centre in Shropshire.
endquote
The piece is illustrated with a climbing wall photo
Somebody there ought to have known better.
http://www.bgs.bradford.sch.uk
quote
The school has easy access to the Dales and the Lake District, which provide the ideal environment for outdoor activities such as fell walking, climbing, abseiling, mountain biking, sailing, the CCF and The Duke of Edinburgh's Award Scheme.
Outdoor activities extend well beyond the local region. Ski parties visit Alpine resorts; mountaineering expeditions tackle the Scottish Highlands in winter and summer conditions; there is an annual watersports trip to the Ardeche gorge; and for year 7 pupils (age 11), there is a wonderful residential weekend each September at an outdoor centre in Shropshire.
endquote
The piece is illustrated with a climbing wall photo
Somebody there ought to have known better.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
"People who live in glass houses
should watch it when changing their trouses"
(wrong joke, I know)
Y.
> (In reply to ChrisJD)
> [...]
>
> I'm sure there's a joke there just begging to be made, but i can't be bothered to work out what it might be..
> [...]
>
> I'm sure there's a joke there just begging to be made, but i can't be bothered to work out what it might be..
"People who live in glass houses
should watch it when changing their trouses"
(wrong joke, I know)
Y.
In reply to UKC News: Some of the worst news I have ever heard (I suppose my life isn't full of catastrophes!) I have been climbing nearly eleven months, and the best available place for someone who's seventeen and skint is the glen! I haven't been in a while! What if the prow or something's been altered?!
Surely should it not be lawful so as to put up a signpost, a bloody big one, to tell people not to remove or damage the rock?! If this is copying someone else's idea then I'm sorry, but it's such an easy solution to something that could effect one of the best bouldering sites in the sparse Bradford region!
Surely should it not be lawful so as to put up a signpost, a bloody big one, to tell people not to remove or damage the rock?! If this is copying someone else's idea then I'm sorry, but it's such an easy solution to something that could effect one of the best bouldering sites in the sparse Bradford region!
I've been saying some chipping's due to geology students for ages!
It just sounds tragically like some teacher has taken trying to enthuse his pupils with the alledged wonders of field geology with a trip outdoors, too far. Hopefully they'd have realised what a f*cking mess they left afterwards, but without signs, especially somewhere like Shipley which to the uninitiated may look a f*cking mess anyway, how are they to know? Generally in these situations the best you can reasonably say to a member of the public is look you've made even more of a mess and pissed off plenty of climbers too. In yorkshire you could yell 'HEY PACK IT IN' which I've seen used effectively to stop stone throwers at Ilkley by a prominent regular, but you have to catch them in the act.
Sadly here it doesn't appear that this teacher has taught anyone anything about respect for the outdoors and other outdoor users, or the country code or aesthetics. Which in my opinion is a bit more f*cking important than geology.
It just sounds tragically like some teacher has taken trying to enthuse his pupils with the alledged wonders of field geology with a trip outdoors, too far. Hopefully they'd have realised what a f*cking mess they left afterwards, but without signs, especially somewhere like Shipley which to the uninitiated may look a f*cking mess anyway, how are they to know? Generally in these situations the best you can reasonably say to a member of the public is look you've made even more of a mess and pissed off plenty of climbers too. In yorkshire you could yell 'HEY PACK IT IN' which I've seen used effectively to stop stone throwers at Ilkley by a prominent regular, but you have to catch them in the act.
Sadly here it doesn't appear that this teacher has taught anyone anything about respect for the outdoors and other outdoor users, or the country code or aesthetics. Which in my opinion is a bit more f*cking important than geology.
In reply to UKC News:
If anyone fancies writing them a stern letter, their address is here
Bradford Grammar School
Keighley Rd
Bradford, BD9 4JP
If anyone fancies writing them a stern letter, their address is here
Bradford Grammar School
Keighley Rd
Bradford, BD9 4JP
In reply to brothersoulshine: I pity the post man!
In reply to UKC News:
I just hope he's got the right school.
I just hope he's got the right school.
In reply to Steve Parker:
What are you doing with a Maori language named wall btw? Thats very integrated ... but in the wrong country
> (In reply to John Rushby) Kia Ora Wall - read the link!
What are you doing with a Maori language named wall btw? Thats very integrated ... but in the wrong country
In reply to brothersoulshine et al
> Bradford Grammar School
Hey! Bl**dy elite teachers! Don't tar the rest of the 'bog-standard' with that brushstroke.... In reply to Dee: Hell, we can't even afford hammers....bl**dy luxury!
In reply to UKC News: In my previous thread about chipping http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=148058 the bloke i saw was not associated with BGS. How do i know cos i went there and unless the standards have dropped even further.
If this is BGS i am shocked and surprised. I went on Geography field trips to the Glen myself (bloody grids for rivers). I also learnt to climb there with some of the teachers who are still employed there.
If Mr Raw is still head of geography shame on you. Im not bitter that I wasnt allowed to do "the environmental impact of rock climbing" for my A-level project because it was too "archaic" !!!! Funny thing Kama. !-)
If this is BGS i am shocked and surprised. I went on Geography field trips to the Glen myself (bloody grids for rivers). I also learnt to climb there with some of the teachers who are still employed there.
If Mr Raw is still head of geography shame on you. Im not bitter that I wasnt allowed to do "the environmental impact of rock climbing" for my A-level project because it was too "archaic" !!!! Funny thing Kama. !-)
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