UKC

Having announced in August that print publication would cease and that the content would instead move to a free digital version, Editor of Climb Magazine Ian Parnell has informed readers that the online version of the print magazine will now also cease production after one digital edition.

Read more

In reply to UKC News:

Sad news. I suppose the formula didn't work out. Oh well, Ian will find another platform for his talents.

No pressure in on UKC now ...

In reply to UKC News:

Such a big loss. For all that UKC is good, Climb was on another level for photography, writing and reporting. Gutted that it hasn't worked out.

I guess Instagram really is the future of climbing media.

"I just sent my project!!!! So proud #9d #redbull #coke #nike #olympics #liveyourdream #mindfulness"

Or has anyone got any other suggestions? I've read a couple of decent articles in The Project Magazine.

In reply to Brendan: Totally agree that Instagram is the future of climbing media.

Who needs those rubbish long articles like bullock writes or those crappy mountain profiles in alpinist.

If something about climbing cant be said with a hashtag it needn't be said at all.

In reply to UKC News:
A sad day. I remember as a kid excitedly awaiting the next edition of Climber and High (and later, OTE) - such exciting times of youth. But change is inevitable as media and platforms evolve. There will be many of us who have spent much of our time sitting on the bog with a climbing guide book, reading the route descriptions and then devouring the history section. You can't really do that to the same extent with Rockfax guides - they are more akin to flicking through a glossy mag with appealing photographs.

But that is not to say that Rockfax doesn't have its place. Their guides are innovative and appealing and rightly enjoy great success.

So yes, it is sad that the 'old style' guides and magazines are a dying breed, but that has opened up new opportunities; we have seen a raft of autobiographies from the heros of the past and I reckon that without the history section in guidebooks, and without features in magazines, we might just see a rennaisance in the 'climbing coffee-table book' akin to Hard Rock, packed full of history, photos, interviews and, features to inspire the next generation.

In reply to UKC News:

Surprised they only published one online edition before ceasing. Guess either they were hitting a brick wall regarding advertising or they had already run into a cash flow problem beforehand. The digital version looked slick. I imagine the competition becomes much greater when moving to an online platform. So easy to self-publish online.

In reply to Brendan:



Like any form of self-publishing Instagram is whatever you make of it. You can follow people that talk mindless shit or those who try to say something constructive.

In reply to UKC News:
I was sad to see the paper edition go, I spend all my working day looking at a screen, it was nice to sit back and read a hardcopy paper magazine. Are there not enough climbers or are they even tighter than cyclists?

So any recommendations for a good quality mag with long written features and good photos?

In reply to UKC News:
End of Climb? That was the title they went with?

How about Après l'Escalade, the on trend post-exercise outdoor fashion and entertainment guide?

In reply to UKC News:

Wondering whether Greenshires might be in trouble - I was due a refund of my remainder Climb subscription for a while now and every time I have chased it up had been a different excuse.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

True, but it's still no substitute for objective reporting, in my opinion.

In reply to RX-78:



alpinist obviously, although thats a bit different i guess, especially since its mostly centred around... well... alpinism. but not exclusively, they do have other features, and id say it has the highest quality of writing in any climbing magazine, and the photos are excellent.

either way, climb will be missed, given that it was close to home

In reply to UKC News:

Big shame that. The last few months' issues (paper or digital) have really been excellent for quality articles, interviews etc.

In reply to UKC News:

Bit of a shock. It was an uncertain venture but I thought they'd at least get a few editions out to see how it was going.

In reply to UKC News:

Big shame! Loved having them on the coffee table, next to the toilet or holiday reading.

In reply to UKC News:

Interesting times... I wonder what this means for climbing media. The quality of journalism and production of these magazines is wayyyy beyond anything that I have yet seen on a web based platform. I can't help but feel that this is a negative thing for climbing media as nothing seems to be filling the void.

The web in my opinion is very quick and dirty with no publishing commitments and with exceptions, the journalism and editing are reflected in this. The basic layouts that the average websites have are pretty static and as a result, the appearance of content is very samey and repetitive.

Another thing about web content is that it is extremely current; old content becomes unloved and often disappears as sites get progressively overhauled. Older content gets harder to search with site architectures and often when you can find it, it looks awful (BBC is a prime example of this). A magazine stays exactly as it is for many years and even becomes collectable in some cases.

In reply to Blake:



Climb was a well edited magazine with some great photography and it is a shame for British climbing that it has become unsustainable. In my opinion that is down to it being part of a bigger publishing company that didn't give it the attention it needed and push it in the right direction as long as 15 or 20 years ago. As soon as it started ignoring its web presence, it was probably doomed.

However to suggest that the standard of editing is "way beyond anything on the web" is tosh. Having something printed and having two months or more to prepare it might make one spend more time proofing and editing, and there isn’t the added pressure we have to post stuff quickly and cover news, but to suggest that online means "quick and dirty", has no commitments and isn't of the same overall quality, is nonsense.

I can only speak for UKC, but we have significant commitments and deadlines to meet and standards to uphold. Layouts are far from static in terms of content and I can only assume that you have yet to discover the excellent Digital Features we have been running for the last four years - https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/digital_features.php#1

As for old content, not only is virtually everything we ever published still available, it is also still getting read and in greater viewing figures than the majority of magazine articles ever achieve, and certainly in a searchable system that is far more accessible, to more people, than a stack of magazines has ever been.

Magazines are great, and I hope that they continue to exist. Print is great too (half UKC's business if print) and I anticipate a place for printed formats for many years to come. It isn't an either/or equation - both have their place and their unique appeals (although only one of them would allow us to have this conversation so easily).

Alan

In reply to Blake:


Hmm... let's take an irony bypass and see if we can be rather more positive.

'The web, in my opinion, is very quick and dirty, with no publishing commitments, and, with exceptions, the journalism and editing are reflected in this.'

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:


Where does the UKC Style Guide stand on the Oxford comma, Mick?

In reply to planetmarshall:

This will sound like a pusillanimous hedging of bets but I simply prefer to take things on a case by case basis. I suppose I want clarity first: 'What can be said at all can be said clearly.'

There always seems to be a happy balance between under-editing and over-editing. But I simply don't accept the oft-repeated canard that you can't have good writing and good editing on the internet.

I'm sorry that Climb has ceased publication. I strongly suspect that Alan is correct and the parent company should have risen to the internet challenge long ago.

I'd echo what Ramon said above. Hopefully Ian Parnell will find another platform for his (very considerable) editorial and writing talents.

Mick

In reply to planetmarshall:

I don't tend to use them much personally, but as Mick says it helps to look at individual cases. The points in a sentence where one would pause when reading tend to vary from person to person. Mick's sentence above, for example, is a good use of one I think. Now, I'm overthinking, commas, help!

In reply to planetmarshall:
That's not an Oxford comma though. An Oxford comma is a comma before 'and' or 'or' when used before the last item in a list. Whereas in Mick's sentence the comma before the 'and' is there to close off the subclause 'with no publishing commitments'. Furthermore, it's not before the last item in a list. The 'and' is linking in the second half of the sentence. You could put a full stop there and it would still make sense, which wouldn't work with a simple list.

A 'proper' Oxford comma is plain wrong

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

A good use of one, you think?

In reply to Misha:

You're right, it's not one. Perhaps that's why I think it works well in the sentence! I find the (true) Oxford comma in lists to be redundant usually.

In reply to Misha:



[Sharp intake of breath]. I really like the Oxford comma. It conveys a sense of accuracy, care, purpose, and pleasure. I am always sad when style guides forbid it, as so many publishers do.

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Oxford Commas? "I'd like to thank my parents, Natalie Berry and Mick Ward for help preparing this article."

In reply to steveriley:

You're welcome, son.

In reply to steveriley:


Ah, but surely a colon would remove the ambiguity here?

I have not read Lynne Truss's book. Perhaps I should?

In reply to UKC News: what was the magasinets circulation?

In reply to steveriley:

https://twitter.com/IAmOxfordComma/status/835069687092359168

In reply to BusyLizzie:
It's like snagging your shoelaces on a quickdraw just as you're about to make the crux move after everything had gone smoothly up to there.

In reply to steveriley:


What's ambiguous about that, unless you're illiterate?

In my opinion Oxford commas have a place, but usually it's confined to separating compound items in a list. E.g. Items include A and B, C and D, and E and F.

In reply to john arran:


Yes, John, I'm illiterate. I've decided to start with the Oxford Comma and syntactic ambiguities. Next week it's 'The cat sat on the mat'.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Surely if you meant that your parents were Natalie Berry and Mick Ward you'd write "I'd like to thank my parents, Natalie Berry and Mick Ward, for help preparing this article." Without the second comma I can't see how it can be ambiguous.

Am I being stupid or missing something obvious?

In reply to Misha:

Hmm, yes, I see what you mean

In reply to john arran:



Neither, but I think this can still be interpreted as 'My Parents', 'Natalie Berry' and 'Mick Ward' being a list of three. I'd probably write it as:

"I'd like to thank my parents: Natalie Berry and Mick Ward, for help preparing this article."

I think the Oxford Comma here is useful in removing the ambiguity, as in "Eats, shoots and leaves".

In reply to planetmarshall:

Ah but the last comma makes a crucial difference, as compared to the full stop in your example. It declares the commas as virtual parentheses, which could not be the case without the 'closing' comma. I would say your version, while intelligible and unambiguous, is technically incorrect, because the text following the colon is not entirely a list and cannot stand alone as a sentence.

In reply to john arran:


I don't think that's strictly necessary for a colon? A semi-colon perhaps, if it's being used instead of a full stop.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Fair enough. I disagree, certainly in this case and I can't immediately think of any counter-examples.

In reply to john arran:


I think you might interpret this as thanking his parents and then later thanking Natalie Berry and Mick Ward, as if they are related people in some way, but not necessarily to his parents.

For example, you might think that they were both his school teachers.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Surprised they only published one online edition before ceasing.

Apparently, there was an argument about the placing of a comma and it was decided that the best course of action was to cease publishing immediately...

In reply to FreshSlate:

Ah, this is fun...

"I'd like to thank my parents - Natalie Berry and Mick Ward for help preparing this article."

In reply to john arran:


Virtual parentheses, perhaps, but what goes between is parenthesis whether denoted by brackets/parentheses, commas or dashes. So the following are all equivalent:

to thank my parents (Natalie Berry and Mick Ward) for help
to thank my parents, Natalie Berry and Mick Ward, for help
to thank my parents — Natalie Berry and Mick Ward — for help

But I still think the Oxford comma is useful (if not strictly necessary) in clarifying the three-item list:

to thank my parents, Natalie Berry, and Mick Ward for help

In reply to UKC News:

I agree with Alan, the website over the last few months was dire, I tried on multiple occasions to subscribe and the link didn't work...
I will admit to not having read the online edition, if I'm sitting reading something I want to be away from the computer!

In reply to HardenClimber:



No, that's not really acceptable. The dash doesn't work like a colon but, even if it did, the problem would remain that you're left with the nonsensical, ungrammatical pseudo-phrase: 'Natalie Berry and Mick Ward for help preparing this article.' There are only two ways (I think) to do this unambiguously. One, if you mean you're thanking four different people: '... thank m p, NB, and MW for help etc.' Two, if you're thanking your parents, who are called NB and MW: '... thank mp, NB and MW, for help etc.' The first case is one where the Oxford Comma is essential to avoid ambiguity. But, like many writers, I will only use the Oxford Comma when it is necessary. It's ugly and redundant otherwise.

In reply to planetmarshall:

That's just horrible. You can't have a colon prefacing a clarification and then just carry on with the rest of the sentence as if the colon wasn't there. Use a couple of parentheses or hyphens if you must but I agree with John on this one: a couple of commas around the clarification is just fine. I think this colon is fine by the way because it's simply replacing 'that'.

In reply to john arran:

In reply to HardenClimber:

In reply to petestack:
That's a good explanation. I guess as the comma is used so frequently for a number of reasons it doesn't always stick out to me as signalling parentheses as strongly as brackets or dashes.

With the Oxford comma it makes it clear that the writer intends to list three items in a way that simply failing to signal the close of parentheses does not, for me anyway.

Also, if he was thanking his parents at the end of the sentence i.e.

"I'd like to thank my parents, Natalie Berry and Mick Ward."

Where do you put the second comma signal that they're his parents?

P.S I'm not aiming all of this at your post, just contributing to the thread at large.

In reply to steveriley:

Regardless of whether or not Natalie and Mick happen to be your parents, should the real question of the day be whether 'help preparing' is acceptable? I think - tentatively - that 'help in preparing' or 'help with preparing' or 'helping prepare' or, indeed, 'helping to prepare' would be (far) better; of course, others might disagree: after all, there are no hard and fast rules, or are there - who knows!

In reply to FreshSlate:
That's a very good point, it would indeed be ambiguous if the sentence ended there. A dash instead of a comma would solve it.

In reply to Misha:

Very good. But while looking similar, that isn't an Oxford comma.

But of course you knew that

In reply to Misha:

In reply to FreshSlate:




If you're prefacing a list, a colon is usual: "I'd like to thank my parents: Natalie Berry and Mick Ward."

In reply to john arran:
Yeah I wasn't sure a question followed by an exclamation in the same sentence really worked. 'Who knows!' should really be a separate sentence. If it's a sentence, that is. Oh, this could go on for a while...

On a separate point, an Oxford comma would be incorrect in Russian. We just don't have it as a concept. Pretty sure it's the same with French.

In reply to Misha:


As one who has done a fair bit of subbing in his time, including for The Times, I'd probably favour expanding it slightly to:
"...for their help in preparation of this article".
Certainly not "help preparing", anyway, unless it was being subbed for the Guardian (which I've never done).

In reply to thread:

FFS, how complicated do you grammar pedants want to make it?
The sentence is obviously ambiguous no matter how many commas, etc. you wish to use.
Why not just rewrite it so you have definitive statements about who contributed to the article?

In reply to spenser:

How did you read this thread then?

In reply to FactorXXX:


Punctuation pedants, surely?

In reply to FactorXXX:



Or maybe they just didn't have time to produce anymore issues

In reply to john arran:

You could just turn it round... Natalie Berry and Mick Ward and my parents. Add commas as required/desired. Or not.

In reply to steveriley:

For what it's worth, I was being playful - I rarely use an Oxford comma but will when it adds clarity. Like John's example of compound lists already including 'and'.

Anyways, now I'm replying to myself in a classic ukc war of distraction. Shame about Climb magazine, it was always lovely to look at and felt coherent and carefully put together. Hope everyone involved thrives elsewhere.

In reply to steveriley:

Couldn’t agree more Steve - good luck to Ian, Dave and the team in their future endeavours.

It's also a great shame that a potentially interesting discussion about the demise of Climb magasine, has been hijacked by a lengthy tedious debate about commas.

In reply to jon:


While you could (and it works), there could also be a perceived difference of emphasis, i.e. parents first because you're stressing their input as most significant/formative.

In reply to Hugh Cottam:


While I can see this too (and sympathise), it's not tedious to all of us.

In reply to Hugh Cottam:

What's surprising (to me) is that 'Climb' has tanked so immediately - i.e. after a recent indication that it was proposing to move to a permanent on-line format.

It would be interesting to hear more from the people involved; all that we seem to have so far is the announcement on Facebook.

However, best wishes to those folk who have lost their jobs/income as a result of all of this.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Maybe if they'd called it Rotpunktuation it could have been more popular.

In reply to john arran:

Or, perhaps, 'Colon World.'

Then again, perhaps not.

In reply to petestack:


Natalie Berry and Mick Ward and especially my parents

In reply to jon:

In reply to Misha:
I did say:


But I'm not 100% sure they're necessary there

In reply to Mr. Lee:


Have to strongly disagree with that. Instagram is really very limited, poorly designed, or more accurate to say that it's designed with the end goal of manipulating it's users above all else.

Some of the problems are:

1. Really hard to follow someone (using RSS) for non Instagram members. Basically I think you need to use a third party service.

2. No options to change the page layout. Every page looks exactly the same as every other page. It's not just boring but dysfunctional.

3. Video controls are limited. There's no volume control, no full screen, no timeline.

4. You can't embed content like say a video from another site.

5. Photographs are limited to low resolution only - and photos is what the thing is actually meant for!

6. Links appear to be prohibited. I think people are only allowed one link on their bio page and nothing else. FFS how totally rubbish is that on the internet, the world that's built on hypertext ?


All in all it's such a poor platform I often wonder why so many people use it. My conclusion is that most climbers are technically illiterate and can't manage anything more complicated.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

I suspect that the online format was more wing and a prayer type stuff than a long thought out business model. Presumably, they hoped all the advertisers would stay on board, and the economics would then stack up in a manner that didn't work with the print and distribution costs. I can only assume that it tanked quickly as they couldn't get the advertisers to believe in the new digital model.

It is a shame as it's end of an era type stuff. Hard to say if it's a good thing for Climber in the short term or merely a signalling of the death knell for print media. I can't help but reflect that as times change, new mediums develop, and we gain all sorts of positive things, but other things get consigned to the dustbin of history. You don't know what you've got til it's gone. I feel a bit sad that the Big Yellow Taxi's come for Climb.

In reply to stp:


Well, it clearly isn't poorly designed. It's designed extremely well, and I think you may underestimate just what's involved in building a responsive web platform that can serve 800 million active users.

It's not a publishing platform, however, and comparing it to such misses the point.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Yeah I meant it's poorly designed from the users perspective. I'm sure it serves it's purpose for the company that owns it really well. I don't think the flaws are anything to do with difficulty of design. For instance the fact that hyperlinks can't be posted would have required extra complicated coding to make that happen. The site is owned by Facebook so there is plenty of money behind it.

Not sure what you mean by 'It's not a publishing platform'. Isn't that exactly what it is? People publish photos, videos and text.

In reply to stp:


Personally I'm glad you can't link stuff on Instagram. Twitter is full is links, meaning it's often used merely as a means of self-promotion. I'm sure I'm not the only person constantly blocking rubbish that some friends choose to link on FB. I wish Instagram would give up on the uploads via photos only though.


I think I'm stating the obvious here but Instagram is just a social media platform for photos, intended for using with mobiles. It's not intended to be a platform for publishing proper articles. Personally I like the simple photo-based format.

In reply to UKC News:

At the risk of being very unpopular, while I think it's a tremendous shame that Climb has ceased publishing, I gave up reading British climbing magazines 10 years ago. Between the ever-present article on how to choose your first harness/shoes/helmet/belay plate, a round-up of the latest waterproof jackets, an article about the latest stick-hard 9a sport route, a section on bouldering and a cover photo of a close-up of somebody climbing overhanging limestone there was almost nothing that felt relevant or interesting to me as an experienced but low to mid grade trad/ice climber and mountaineer. Also, almost all the people I knew were mid grade trad/ice climbers and mountaineers and these magazines didn't seem to appeal to them either, and I sometimes wondered who bought them apart from beginners looking for info on their new sport.

Apologies if the above does no justice to what Climb was at the end, but that was how magazines appeared to me for a long time (Alpinist excluded, but it's a bit expensive so just a rare treat!) and I'm not particularly surprised that they've all vanished. I do think it's a huge shame, but I'm not surprised.