UKC

I didn't want to hijack a different thread, so I've started a new one.

Firstly, some prices from the main bouldering walls near me:

The Climbing Hangar - £7
Awesome Walls - Stoke - £7
The Climbing Works - £7

How can a bouldering centre, offering just 1 style of climbing, justify charging pretty much the same price as other climbing centres (Awesome Walls Liverpool, MCC etc.) which offer routes as well as decent bouldering facilities.

I understand that it may be a better environment for somebody just interested in bouldering, but this still leads to the question, is it fair to charge such high prices? Especially when the impact of bouldering indoors is much less than leading and top roping indoors. For example, ropes are obviously not needed and therefore no replacement is necessary. The same goes for quickdraws and lower offs, also harnesses etc.

I'd be really interested to hear any other opinions on this.

In reply to Mike Nolan: personally i feel the prices are ok, but from a walls perspective i guess you charge what people will pay, it is a business.

In reply to Mike Nolan: If enough people pay it that the owner makes a profit then it is priced correctly.

If you think that it is too expensive formulate a business plan and raise some finance and start your own place.

My local wall, is £10 for a non member, or £7 for a member with a £20membership fee. I think it depends how you use the wall, I go for a boulder and stay for around 3 hours, now if I was to go to the cinema to watch a film then that would cost me £10ish too, or go to a pub for 3 hours, that'll cost me £10 in drinks and so on, so if you look at it like that its actually not badly prices. What would you pay for a single session in a local gym?

In reply to Mike Nolan:

I think it's due to insurance, not equipment costs.

In reply to Mike Nolan: Guess this was linked to mine, it's a true fair point tho.

In reply to Mike Nolan: so why should bouldering be cheaper then?

In reply to beastofackworth:

You dont need to the keep the place warm, the boulderers would just have to keep their tops on.

In reply to alx: Try prices in Canada.

My local bouldering only wall costs 60 dollar membership fee an then its 13 dollars each time. In Vancouver it was worse, mostly top roping only and 18 dollar entry fee!

I cant wait to get down to the Depot...

In reply to ilch:

Is that evolution by any chance? seems to have the same pricing if not.

I'd say that the climbing works is extremely reasonably priced if you consider that it's one of the best bouldering centres in the world.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

It's expensive but at least it's not 3 times that figure- which it is on other parts of the world. Get a paper round or save up 6 visits worth and buy a Beastmaker.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

Its the Insurance that keeps the cost up.

In reply to Guy Atkinson:

"I'd say that the climbing works is extremely reasonably priced if you consider that it's one of the best bouldering centres in the world."

Completely agree. You need to remember as well that a lot of these walls charge various prices for being non/members, on/offpeak, students usually get discount. I wouldn't even say The Climbing Works shop was expensive too compared to what they could charge like some small climbing shops (you also get great advice/help).

I don't think you just pay to climb sometimes, but pay for not only the climbing, but the social side, fitness side and knowledge side of such an establishment. I personally being a student, member and going in offpeak sessions think it's incredible value for such a great sport.

In reply to Jackwd:
I'm with Jackwd on this. The Climbing works are always updating their problems, using new holds and changing volumes (amogst other things), which I'm guessing is not cheap.

Plus, could be worse mate, you could using walls in the south...better round them prices off to a tenner.

In reply to Mike Nolan: The cost of running a bouldering centre is exactly the same as a roped centre.
Staff, rent, rates, insurance, route setting, etc etc.
Also replacing the mat is a lot more expensive than replacing top ropes.
Hence the similiarity in price, and rember 20% of your entrance goes off to the government in VAT, perhaps its time HM Revenue and Customs stoppped charging VAT on sport, including school sports.

In reply to Ian Dunn:

its not tho is it. for industrial units (or similar) which most centers are in, you pay per cubic foot. so rent for a roped center is considerably more expensive than a bouldering only place because of the height. and because of the the roped aspect they can get fewer lines per panel than bouldering places, so they can offer even less and should therefore charge more, but they dont, cos nooone would pay. insurance is also completely different when ropes are involved.

and how often do you think mats get replaced? im thinking not more than once every 5 years. probably the same outlay as replacing draws/ loweroffs and ropes every few months for the same period.

In reply to Mike Nolan: the price doesn't bother me at all, I don't drink an awful lot, I don't smoke, I climb, admittedly not for very long yet, but i think the price is pretty good, how much ie a football match for 90mins, how much is gym memberships, there are many things that are more expensive than bouldering, and to pay 7quid, really doesn't bother me, I enjoy it so I pay it at the end of the day

In reply to mark_wellin: As someone who has run a wall for a number of years, insurance is related to turnover and risk and there is little difference in premium for bouldering or leading walls.
Most rents in the NW tend to be per square foot and it doesn't matter what height the walls are. Obviously route setting costs more on high walls but boulder walls tend to have more regular route setting.

The cost of the mat at a big boulder wall is tens of thousands of pounds, you get a lot of rope and quick draws for that!

In reply to Mike Nolan: Climb Newcastle just upped their prices from £5.50 to £6, but they have awesome setters, great routes, continually get new holds, add new features to walls (like new walls!), add videos of how to do some of the problems. Going there today

In reply to Mike Nolan:

Go to Broughton, best indoor bouldering in the land and less than £5, don't expect heating 'though.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

Is it fair? This is capitalism, that question is irrelevant. What matters is, will people still pay it, and from what I've seen of the Works at least, the answer is yes. So either people in Sheffield have too much money, are all stupid, or the prices are reasonable within the marketplace. You decide which of those seems like the most likely explanation.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

You're joking right? Have you looked at the price of a rope compared with the price of bouldering mats?

In reply to Mike Nolan:

You obviously have no idea about the true costs of running a climbing wall. Take a look at the prices for the London Walls. You will have a shock.

At the end of the day, if you don't like the prices, don't pay them. Set up your own wall and charge a fiver to get in. See how long you last as a business.

In reply to Adam Lincoln: Most walls work out a lot cheaper if you take a monthly pass or similar. The Castle now charges £12 per visit but £42 monthly by Durect Debit. That is pretty cheap if you go 3 times a week.
The Arch is £10 single visit but £50 a month. Again very reasonable for regular users.
So £7 for a single visit is pretty cheap compared to London.

In reply to daveyji: I couldn't agree with adam any more, It is your choice to visit the centre and you really have to recognise the expenses involved. Running a wall does not mean high profit margins by any means.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

Have to agree they are too expensive, especially compared to regular gyms. I'm paying almost £90 a month to boulder three times a week at the minute, this is more than twice as much as my old gym membership of £40/month.

I pay it because I want to climb but do think it's a bit over the odds.

In reply to Bulley: Completely agree, Climb Newcastle is the best bouldering wall I have visited.

In reply to Mike Nolan:
The only one of those I have any experience of is the Works. £7 will get me several hours entertainment and exercise.

It equates to £3.50/per hour for a two hour session or £2.30 per hour for a three hour session. Measured in the currency of pints of beer it is pretty well priced in my opinion.
I realise this may not be the case if you are short of cash but they have got to make a profit in order to keep going.
Althought they may not be spending money on replacing ropes they do seem to run a very well organised operation with a steady supply of new an interesting problems. I suspect they spend more on holds/ volumes than many roped walls.

In reply to geordiepie:


Does the wall you use not have an annual membership option. Most places seem to and it would cost a lot less than you are currently spending.

In reply to timlongs: Serisouly guys check out the annual membership prices for walls. For example the Climbing Works you can pay £30 a month to anythime use... Get a grip

In reply to Mike Nolan:
I keep thinking about buidling a wall to trian on in my garage but the initial cost to do something decent would be at least equivalent to a years membership at the Works and it would be tiny and sh1t by comparison

In reply to daveyj

I was told the Monthly would cost £65.

I

In reply to jdaynes:

thats great if you want to tie yourself to one wall then if they decide to become slack with setting new problems your pretty much buggered,plus if you buy a years membership then get injured(i once did 3 months into a years membership and had 6 months off) your well out of pocket

In reply to Mike Nolan:
seven quid compares well to most other sports facilities. if the investors who take the risk to set a bouldering wall up make a few bob, that's great news for all of us. because it equates in the future to more investors, more walls, better walls.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

I think the charge is great...always too busy and so the 'Grimer' patented free entry plan is easier to implement

In reply to Mike Nolan: Do you really want it cheap?
If they charge peanuts you'll have a gym full of monkeys, and nobody wants that!

In reply to mark_wellin: Mark, listen to Ian. Or you could listen to me, if you prefer. We probably have in excess of 25 years of wall management experience between us.
Bouldering costs just as much as roped climbing to provide.

In reply to IainWhitehouse:

Ok mate I believe you! ( didn't think I had argued but there you go)
Just to enlighten me further. Why is there no difference in insurance for ropes and bouldering? Why is it no more expensive go rent or buy and tall unit rather than a short one of the same footprint?

I ask because it has been told to me by lots of other very experienced people that insurance is completely different for ropes and bouldering and I know for a fact that rents are based of cubic footage down here so why is it differen up north? (I'm assuming your up north, you always are with differences like this) is it because that is a surplus of less than prime industrial units available?

In reply to mark_wellin:
To the guy that wS tying to be clever. I guess you just looked at my profile and saw where I lived right? Silly man

In reply to Mike Nolan: All of you that think £7 is a reasonable price for a bouldering session are obviously earning way too much money. It’s a considerable cost in proportion to my wages that aren’t already locked up in bills. There has been many occasions that I have not been able to go to the wall when I’d like because of the expense of climbing on plastic.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

As I'm sure has been already mentioned (haven't read all the thread), it seems all the walls in Sheffield have gone up by 50p at the same time. I can live with that, but I got a shock when I went to the Works a week or two back. I took my two girls (aged 8&3) for a climb in the children's section, and was charged £9. For me, that it too steep but still paid it to avoid sad child face syndrome on the day. Unfortuntely, the children's area was so overcrowded we left soon after, as although the eight year old was big enough the three year old was getting pushed and several times almost had her fingers stood on. I know it isn't normally that mad busy, but in future I won't be paying £9 for both girls and will find other entertainments for them. Sad really, but it did price us out of the market which is a net loss for the Works

In reply to mark_wellin:
The major cost of running a wall is staffing (including setters, cleaning etc) so considerations of relative rents and so on are possibly missleading.

That said, I really don't know why insurance is little different for roped climbing and bouldering. Bouldering should be more expensive as anyone who knows the industry well will tell you (except perhaps those who own bouldering only walls).

Iain

In reply to Double Knee Bar:

There's plenty of things I'd like to be able to do regularly but which I can't afford. Doesn't mean that they should be cheaper. If someone finds a model which allows them to provide the same facilities for less, good luck to them.

In reply to Double Knee Bar:

Id love a Ferrari but i can't afford one...

In reply to IainWhitehouse:

Ian said above that insurance was based on turnover (users) and risk. So assuming thatthe amount of users is the same surely roped climbing has more risks? I know they say bouldering is more dangerous because of more accidents. But it would be hard to kill yourself bouldering. Where as it's quite easy to die roped climbing. Also there is more liability cos it's all your equipment. Whereas as lon as here ain't a hole inyour Matt your covered as long as the person is properly inducted.

It's also interesting that you say staffing cost are the biggest factor for you. I did some (very basic and simplistic) sums to work out wether a wall was viable here and by far the biggest cos was rent and rates. Like alot. Nearly double everything else. I guess that's why there isn't a wall here... Noones had the balls to see it through

But I'm finding this vey interesting so please don't see me being challenging in any way. I just want to learn!

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Now Adam, tell the truth ...

Andy F

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

I'm not surprised when you're decked out in Patagucci and seem to spend every weekday climbing!

In reply to mark_wellin:

In the insurance world death is actually preferable to most remotely serious injuries - it means a one-off finite payment rather than an unknown long-tailed claim that you would get for e.g. a back injury that could rack up millions in cost from house conversion costs and mobility cars to rehab and "emotional" support, probably on an on-going monthly basis. It's rather crass but the fact is it costs a lot to look after people, and not a lot to pay life insurance out

There is also the fact that offering "climbing wall" insurance is relatively new, and is a mind boggling set of new risks that most underwriters will never have heard of. In order for insurance prices to be low, there has to be virtually no risk (and although we might see it like that, underwriters don't) and a long history of claims and payments so that the Actuaries can accurately estimate how many deaths, serious injuries, minor injuries etc that will occur over a given period


Although we all sign the BMC statement etc and any other ts&cs the wall require, like many things, these don't always cover you in the way you would expect (Especially where someone has been shown to be negligent e.g. climber b leaves his nice metal sigg bottle on the matt and Climber a falls on it (especially if a member of staff didn't spot it))


Are you sure you were looking at the right staffing levels? (These may also be dictated by insurance)


From an insurance point of view HTH

BB

In reply to balmybaldwin:

P.S. If you fell awkwardly bouldering you could quite easily break your neck if you landed on your bonce(not the stongest part of a human)

In reply to galpinos:

Errr.... busted

In reply to mark_wellin: Rent and rates for the Works is approx. 10% of the wall related turnover. My 2 full time staff account for a similar amount and thats before you take into account the part timers and the instructors or the remuneration of the 3 Managaing Directors (all of whom work).

If the biggest cost in your hypothetical wall was rent and rates then maybe its a good job you didn't invest any money in it as I think you would have ended up being shocked and probably bust.

Risk and turnover are connected as the more users you have the higher the risk you have. The likelihood of an accident at a bouldering wall is much, much higher than the likelihood of an accident on a roped wall but of course the severity of the outcome is likely to be much lower.

But you are misunderstanding the costs of insurance. The cost of defending a sprained ankle on a bouldering wall could just as easily be as high as defending a near death injury at a roped wall. The payout might be higher for the near fatality but in anything other than exceptional cases the legal costs will far outweigh any payout. A recently settled case had a payout of around about £100k, the legal costs incurred will dwarf this amount.

And insurance will also go up if you have a shop (as that will increase your turnover and you need the stock insured), employ lots of staff, have lots of fancy gadgets in your office etc etc. None of these latter items are connected to whether you have a bouldering only wall or a roped wall.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

Its what the market will stand. Fundamentally a bouldering wall is cheaper to build and run however a wall with ropes will make a big part of their income from school / scout group usage.

In reply to Double Knee Bar:

I recently spent three times that amount to watch 90 minutes of third division football. Approx 4000 other people did the same. Many of these people will do that 40 or 50 times a season.

A evening of bouldering is definately better value - although I might have felt otherwise had my team won 3-2 rather than losing, and shown just a vague hint of skill.

On the other hand a drafty stand at Rochdale on New Years day is still warmer than the Works...!

In reply to GrahamD: Wrong on both counts

When we eventually have to replace our mats I can assure you that the running costs of my bouldering wall will far exceed the running costs of any similar sized roped only wall over a similar period.

Groups love bouldering, they don't have to spend the 1st 15 minutes gearing up. Groups loved roped climbing as they learn other skills that you can't get from bouldering. We've got groups that use us 1 week and go the Edge the next week.

In reply to Chris the Tall: Yeah but you get added value watching TRFC as they always have an extra player on the pitch

In reply to mark_wellin:
Why surely? You explain why you are wrong with your next sentance:

Yep. And not dying is far more expensive for an insurer. Bouldering has about as many serious accidents as roped climbing.

Not so sure about that. There has been only one death in a UK wall that I am aware of.

You are assuming that all calims are settled quickly and fairly from a climber's point of view. I have read detailed reports on several claims at several walls,the only one that didn't allege faulty equipment was also the only one I know of that involved roped climbing. It is also the one that was most summarily dismissed by the judge.
It could be that darn sarf the reverse is true but here in the North Midlands it is definately staffing that is the issue.
>
No worries.

In reply to IainWhitehouse:

There was a death at a wall in Scotland in the 1970's so you now know of 2. Plus there have been a couple of deaths at walls due to heart attacks.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:


was that when people found out how much it was going to cost?

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Interesting you should say that - when we ran through business cases for setting up new walls in Cambridge bouldering walls definitely came out cheaper.

In reply to john arran: If only you knew how much those pesky programmers charge us for maintaining our database

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Wasn't that at Meadowbank centre? I used to train there at that time and it was toproping only, was pretty high, and bad a bare concrete floor, so it was pretty unforgiving if anything went wrong. Things have moved on a bit since then!

As an aside, re getting value for money, Meadowbank was climbing on brick edges and was murder on your boots, but it was in the days before such assymetric footwear so, being Scottish, when the inside edges were trashed we simply wore the boots on the wrong feet and wore out the other sides! Worked fine (well, sort of) for EBs!

Cheers
Andy

In reply to GrahamD: There is no hard and fast rules. A very 3D curved resin wall like the Wave at The Foundry will cost far more than the equivalent sized vertical top roping wall. Whereas an articulated 16m lead wall as at Ratho will set you back an awful lot of money.

As a rule of thumb I would say that a decent sized wall (500+ sqm) will cost around about the same no matter whether it is purely roped or purely bouldering.

One big variable though would be whether you did a home build rather than use one of the big companies. I would say potential wall operators are much, much more likely to home build a bouldering wall than to home build a 15m high overhanging lead wall.

In reply to balmybaldwin and graham

Cheers guys. I dont know much about insurance (even tho my dads a broker... Specialising in big industrial buildings and businesses). Everything you've said makes sense in a ' that's Fu*king stupid but I can see someone in insurance saying that' kinda way.

Unless your paying silly money the rents are obviously very different. 7k for a little one 16k for a biggie (craggy size). To be fair this was a 10 min search and the units were in quite desirable industrial estates but still. I could hire alot of people for that amount!

Just out of interest (and if you don't mind saying) how much is the rent at your wall/s?

In reply to caver: If you pay by dd it's £42. 3 months minimum. The price you mention is if you pay for one month and not by dd.

In reply to helix:
Seven quid is cheap if you compare it to other indoor sports, take tenpin bowling. It costs about £4 to play 1 game, 1 game can last as short as 11 balls and as many as 21 balls. Most bowling centers allow 10 minutes per person per game, so 1 hour (6 games) of bowling will cost you £24

In reply to Adam Lincoln: Sorry but £7 just for access to a climbing wall is a joke. Not being able to afford to climb on plastic is ridiculous. I'm going back to the Keele wall...

In reply to Mike Nolan:

I don't think businesses are about being "fair"? I think they are about making money. I think it is sensible for a business to charge as much as people are willing to pay.

At £7 a go, the bouldering wall that I go to is pretty busy, so it feels to me as though they are not overcharging. They still have to pay for lighting, staff, heating, council tax, rent, holds, cleaning, toilets etc, no matter what type of climbing is provided, so I shouldn't think it is that much cheaper to run?

If you think that you would be able to run a bouldering wall and charge less, why don't you do that, and undercut all the competition and make yourself a killing?

In reply to Mike Nolan:

Mike

Hopefully you have read all the responses to your questions.

Do you think that bouldering centres are too expensive?

Mick

In reply to beastofackworth:

Any decent wall will allow you to freeze your membership if you get injured.

In reply to Double Knee Bar:

Same as going to the cinema. Though you can stay at a wall a lot longer.

In reply to Double Knee Bar:

How much do you think is not a joke? And how many pints do you typically have after a climb?

In reply to Mike Nolan: I went to The Climbing Hangar on saturday, along with my eldest. For the two of us it was £12. We stayed for 4 hrs, which works out at £3 per hour for the two of us. To go to the cinema and watch a flim would easily be double or treble that.

Andy F

In reply to Double Knee Bar:

That isn't really anything to do with the bouldering wall, more your own finances. It's a shame you don't live a bit further north, my two favorite places to train are £4.70 and £5.50, although I'm still happy to pay £7.50 at AW stockport as I think it's a reasonable cost for 2/3hrs entertainment/pain.

In reply to Mike Nolan: I have another question. Why are walls in the South more expensive that up north? It seems like all the prices you mention are less than all the ones I've been to here in the South. Is it just that buildings are more expensive?

In reply to Double Knee Bar:

Good lord man. Climibng and bouldering is not for poor people !

In reply to Ian Dunn:

Completely agree Ian.

In my experience, insurance is a small cost compared to the cost of matting & maintenance, route setting, rent etc.

I don't see why bouldering centres should be cheaper, they still have all the same overheads and one of the largest costs is matting which needs to be maintained reguarly.

Most walls offer climbing packages which makes it considerably cheaper for regular users. For example an annual pass for a student is £330 which equates to £2.12 per visit based on 3 visits per week. This may tie you to a wall, but you could still afford to climb elsewhere with the money you are saving from paying per visit.

An adult off peak costs £6.25, of which £1.25 is VAT. The wall then receives £5 for the session. The user can stay for as long as they wish, has new problems every week to try set by top notch route setters, a place to socialise and catch up with friends, a resource of climbing knowledge and expertise, long opening hours / 7 days a week, Christams Eve, Boxing Day etc, etc.

In reply to Mike Nolan: I'm happy to pay the fee at the Climbingworks in order to get the standard and sheer variety of the route setting, which is excellent. As a regular training venue, you need the problems to be changed on a regular basis, which I would guess is a component of the price.
Last time I enquired, climbing walls aren't charities, so market elasticity of demand sorts out the price.
I'm not sure whether being 'fair' is relevant since we all have the option to go/not go/go somewhere else/build our own at home. Pretty good value when compared to other forms of entertainment.

In reply to Juggler13:
Spend some time up north and I think you'll find a lot of things are cheaper than down south! But on a more specific note I think a cross section of users of London Walls compared with one of (for example) the Climbing Works would show that those down south earn more on average and at the same time are less likely to be serious about climbing. This must affect the way walls do their pricing. I'm not saying that there is a lack of serious climbers in London at all (I know several), but Sheffield especially is full of folk who live there specifically for climbing and are more likely/able to work part time and climb more often, if only due to cheaper living costs...and wall entry fees

In reply to benjied: It must be terrible these days, it used to cost us sixpence to get the bus from Sheff to Fox House then a short walk down to Burbage, or I could get to Bell Hagg by running or twopence on the bus.

In reply to catt:
£5 max to be honest for a bouldering session. What has drink got to do with it? totally unrelated. Prices IMO should be a similar access price to a swimming pool say. £4-5

In reply to Double Knee Bar: Nonsense, if you spent as long in a pool as most do at a wall you'd look like a prune! On an hourly rate walls work out cheaper.

In reply to Double Knee Bar:

Completely Different business model. At that price a swimmming pool is subsidised by the local council.

In reply to Double Knee Bar:

This is what I find utterly amazing

How anyone can compare swimming to bouldering and suggest they should be a similar price is beyond me. What "skill" goes into setting up a swimming pool ? Do you need to be an expert to get the water level ?

Compare that to problem setting at a bouldering wall. My guess is that somewhere like the Works will set up an average of 50 problems a week. The holds aren't just randomly placed on a wall either - I've been really impressed by the way even some of the easiest problems get you using different techniques

In reply to Chris the Tall:

The water may be self levelling but it seems to me there is some skill (even, it may be fair to say, a degree of expertise) required to keep the right amount of water in the pool, clean and at the right temperature.

Supervising and/or teaching people at a pool is certainly no less skilled than doing the same at a bouldering wall.


How ever many they set, I'd like to see them do rather more. A new circuit I can play on feels a bit too much like a special occasion.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


For starters - expensive build, insurance, water quality testing and maintenance, plant for heating and filtration, plant maintenance, energy costs, continual trained lifeguard cover, changing facilities, toilets/showers.

In reply to Mike Nolan: Their main effort is to persuade people to go for the monthly pass (or annual etc) which allows them to plan their finances. A sensible move.

RE the seemingly high prices for limited climbing. The local market will decide and quite cruelly if they aren't providing a top notch venue. I suspect though, that boulderers won't be rushing to climb using kit (though climbing walls with no or poor boulder facilities will struggle).

Modern new climbers raised on plastic climbing love the hassle free nature of bouldering and the market for bouldering centres will prob grow

In reply to andrewyoung99:

Annual memberships lose me money, I would make more if everyone paid full price everytime they come. The cashflow benefit is not very important once you are established especially if people buy an annual pass in one go rather than paying by instalments.

However the advance memberships that we sold before we opened provided very useful cashflow

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

How do you know? If you didn't offer membership, presumably a lot fewer people would visit your wall?

In reply to crossdressingrodney:

Good point!

In reply to crossdressingrodney:

Also, you've got to factor in all those who sign up to the year membership then lose the motivation or just can't find the time to come as often as they should. I was guilty of this at the castle (like the gym memberships you feel guilty about cancelling).

Going back to the swimming pool argument, if I try and go for a swim at any of my 3 local pools it will cost me atleast £6 for a swim, then the times are much more restrictive. So very little different to bouldering, today at 2pm I'll go to my local wall when it opens and potentially I could stay there till 10pm so 8 hours for £7 doesn't sound too bad if you look at it like that.

In reply to Double Knee Bar:

A session at my wall costs me roughly £3.75, based on a monthly plan of £45 and an average of 12 visits a month. And that's at the Castle, regularily slated as the most expensive wall in the country.

I ask about the drink because I'm curious if you happily go down the pub with your mates after a climb and spend £10 on a round and then complain about having to pay £7 for a few hours leisure/training. It puts your complaint in a context for me.

In reply to Charlie_Zero: Not really, everyone gets annual membership once they hit the point at which they're going often enough that it makes it cheaper for them.

At most places, including the works, the tipping point is going about once a week. Once you've got membership and rock up 3+ evenings per week and whenever it's wet at weekends then Graeme has to clean his holds a lot more often, being more picky about problem resets etc. than the once-a-weekers despite him getting the same/less per week out of us anyway.

Sorry Graeme, I'll continue to make it up in flapjack sales.

In reply to ilch:

Where do you swim? I do get a student discount, but I only pay £1.60.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

I went to my local golf driving range the other day with a mate for a laugh and was shocked when told that to hit 100 golf balls into oblivion would cost £7.

It took me about 45mins to miss-hit, fade and generally spoon in the wrong direction.

I would much rather have used that particular £7 to go the climbing wall for as many hours as my arms can stand.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

As a wall manager I have following this thread with interest, especially seeing as we are currently looking at how to relfectr the VAT increases in our prices!

Regards the cost of running a bouldering wall I just want to second what the other wall managers have said. The matting cover alone, (not even the matts), cost more than our initail spend on ropes for the centre, and in terms of surface area the bouldering wall is less than 15% of the wall. Bouldering walls have much more risk associated with them, if the climber and the wall owner does everything perfectly there is still a significant risk that you could break your leg falling off a problem. If everything is done right in a top rope scenario the risk is tiny as is reflected in accident records.

Coming from having managed a wall in a sports centre with a swimming pool in it I can say that it is not a greast comparision. The vast majority of council run pools lose money and have to be subsidised, simply because the energy costs are astronomical. There are also ongoing costs that you may not be aware off. One example from my experience is divers working nights to replace tiles on the bottom of the pool. Replacing the filters was in the region of £100,000.

Overall I think climbing is very cheap when compared to most other adventure sports. Compare it to things like indoor ski slopes and paint balling and it is very cheap.

In reply to catt: That's a lot of climbing indoors. I've recently stopped drinking and even so we don't buy in rounds.

In reply to Mike Nolan: notice the op has abandoned this thread now that several climbing wall owners/managers have come foreward and told him what tosh he was talking