UKC

I was going to use a different title for this but decided against it as it would probably get peoples backs up from the get go.

It is amazing when we look back on the history of the climbing wall how far they have come. From dark, dingy home built basement woodies to the first walls and now we have monoliths like The Lakeland Climbing Center and The Depot.

What does the average user look for in a wall??

For instance, me, I want good routes/problems and good coffee. Pretty basic tbh.

Are their people that want more? Is that why modern walls offer changing rooms, showers, yoga studioes(not just a random area to do it) gender neutral toilets, cafes serving pizza & paninis and a host of drinks and snacks ,vegan cafes and in one wall I've been to barcodes on the wall that you can scan with your phone and have beta videos of the boulder problems!!! I mean come on!!!!

I think all this stems from the the average climbing wall customer in this day and age, probably not registered on UKC so I can be rude about them! Indoor climbing used to be training for outdoors now it's it's own entity entirely and it attracts everyone (which is good, I do mean that)  but also bad as I believe the lack of appreciation for actual climbing is diminished because peoples perception is just what they see on Instagram, Facebook & YouTube. And that is solely people jumping around on plastic with idiotic hashtags (#thisgirlcan is my least favourite ever, yes we can see she climb, get over yourself) whilst munching on vegan snacks pretending to be conscious of the environment  because they have one Patagonia item.

Maybe I just get irritated easily and dont have soul? I think it's great that so many people are getting into climbing but stop making it wanky. It's about the climbing not vegan food, flat whites and acroyobics. 

What does everyone else look for in a wall and what pisses other people off! I cant be the only person that spends his life irritated by little things!!

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic: 

I'd look for a high horse that you can get off from.

In reply to GHawksworth:

Surely I'd already be on the horse if I needed to get down?

Instead of being incredibly witty (just about managing to type through my tears of laughter) why not explain exactly what it is that you find so offensive with my post?? Your one liner didnt exactly open this up for debate?!

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Not looking to debate.

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Poor use of punctuation.

 

 

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

To paraphrase you...

"In my day, climbing walls were downt' pit, and the walls were just bits o' brick screwed int' to coal face. And the place were full o' real proper climbers, real men like. None o' this fancy modern sh*te. Bring back the old days I say."

To answer your question, in no particular order, things I like at a wall are...

Interesting routes of varying grades, nice coffee, some tasty food and cake if I'm making a day of it (vegan food means some of my mates can also enjoy their day too). Some circuits if I want to train endurance, a strength and conditioning area which means I don't have to have an additional gym membership if I want to do weights etc.

I now live somewhere without a wall, so I really appreciate how good the facilities were at places like the Manchester depot. 

Moan less, climb more. Your critiques aren't particularly helpful imo.

 

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

I want good and interesting routes that are regularly changed with friendly staff and clean toilets etc.

I'm not fussed re. full on cafe serving meals etc but decent coffee/tea and cake/snacks is a must. Having an area to sit in for a break is nice also. Personally I don't use the gym type facilities offered at 2 of my local walls but can see the appeal - as folks say it saves you spending more money on gym membership.

The routes are by far the most important thing to me as if I want a cafe or gym there's other places that I can go to provide that service. 

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

People whinging that walls have changed, and now offer nice facilities like cafes with non-fried dead animal, places to get changed and trying to be a bit different. People who complain because climbing walls have moved on from just being training fro outside, to an activity in their own right (which doesn't stop them being excellent training facilities for outside).

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

I'd agree with the usual - good route setting, regular enough changes, somewhere to sit for coffee, clean enough etc.  Surely the main issues are value for money (sensible, not exorbitant prices) and an environment that allows climbing - specifically temperature and avoiding overcrowding.

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

As long as there's also tea I'd be OK with that.

Cafes are profitable in their own right.  Changing rooms stops people stripping off in the main area, which *does* put novices off (a bit like 1990s gyms which used to be full of sweat-stinking massive topless blokes, who may have been nice for the few (at that time) female or gay customers to look at but were massively off-putting to people wanting to start out).  Showers are often present in the industrial units that people tend to turn into walls anyway so there's no point ripping them out.  Yoga rooms and other meeting rooms (the Beacon is hiring out offices in spare space!) are again another way of making money from the building.

Er, wha?

It's about whatever the individual wants it to be about.  Indoor climbing is now a sport in its own right, which is probably no bad thing, as otherwise people here would be whining even more about top ropes on the classics at Stanage!

I *look for* what you do (plus I'd say easy parking and it not being so busy you have to queue for routes).  I don't mind the extras - why would I?  They're pretty much all profitable in their own right so they are reducing what I pay, I'm not paying for them.

 

For me the climbing is the most important thing. Good routes on lead, top rope and also auto belays and bouldering if I'm visiting on my own. Kendal and reading walls are two of the best I have been to. 

Getting irritated by cafés offering vegan food and yoga rooms seems very strange.

Getting irritated by something that makes some people happy and has no detrimental effect on you seems like a a waste of your irritability, save it for something more important.

 

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

I miss the old days of problems escalating up the grades by having nastier and nastier crimps and bigger gaps between them but I guess the resulting injuries make poor business sense? I quite like some of the testy moves on big volumes but still remain sniffy of the indoor parkour that the Young People manage so effortlessly. Down with them and their enthusiasm, good joints and flexibility!

I turn up at the wall with shoes soiled from the outside and literally nobody gives me the respect due as an actual Outside Climber. I've had to look deep into my soul and become a more accepting person. 

PS is good coffee limited to black? I'd put a flat white on the right side of acceptable - can you let us know what is and isn't legal?

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

I think cafes are great, just like people that become members at New Year and never go.  If the wall wasn't making money off them the admission prices would be higher.

Most buildings have spaces which aren't high enough for climbing.  Using them as a gym area or a yoga studio/meeting room or a cafe is just common sense.

The thing I'd like to see in bouldering walls is more problems/circuits which are fun for people that aren't total beginners but aren't that serious either.    

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

I don't even want the coffee or food. I can make better coffee at home and bring it with me in a flask, and I'll bring a banana if I need it. Personally, I don't understand making a day of going to the wall. I use it as a place for a workout, and just as I wouldn't want to spend all day at the gym, I won't stay more than 2-3 hours at the wall. 

Aside from high quality setting, I'd like a decent circuitboard and a good selection of autobelay options. I'd also like to see less of those problems that involve running along the wall or anything equally irrelevant to actual climbing. And I'd like to see more walls with better strength and conditioning facilities. My local place has about 15 fingerboards but not a single kettlebell. It'd be awesome if I didn't have to shell out for a gym membership on top of a wall membership.

In reply to alexm198:

Maybe you have a nice wall close to you.  If you've driven for 2 hours to get there (or it's just pissing down outside) you might appreciate somewhere to have lunch.

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Got to agree about the whole Instagram #bitchenclimbing #loveclimbing stuff. 

My experience of climbing this week was get back from work, can’t be ar**d to drive in to Sheffield, out to the garage with so many jackets on I can hardly get close enough to holds.  Turn on gas heater and back up fan heater. Try in vain to warm up so I don’t ping a tendon pulley. Train while listening to more Brex*t bilge on the radio.

its a long way from climbing on Insta

In reply to Dave Garnett:

That's a good point. I was only explaining what I wanted from a wall. From a personal, subjective point of view, I'd be happy to have no food/coffee facilities if it drove the price down.

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

The music in the Foundry last friday night was mental - quite off putting whilst flexing my muscles. Please play sexier music so I can attract a mate. Maybe some Luther Vandross.

 

Thanks

In reply to alexm198:

Agreed, also 30 degree system boards would be great as well as, or instead of the ubiquitous 45 degree boards. Many walls seem to assume that only the hardest climbers need to train systematically 

 

In reply to alexm198:

How much money does it cost to provide a cup of tea or coffee?  Walls charge the going rate for a hot drink and they are looking at serious profits to SUBSIDISE the climbing.  Better analogy would be ‘are you willing to pay more to do away with food and drink facilities’

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Good regular route setting

Adequate parking...

In reply to Andrew Kin:

Blimey, didn't realise everyone cared so much about my subjective take on having coffee facilities at the wall! If they're subsidising entry then I suppose I'll let them stay

In reply to Neil Williams:

This.  I don't care particularly about these things myself one way or the other, but if they allow a wall to invest in new holds/remodelling/new hardware or matting/training areas or whatever and don't adversely affect the climbing then I have no problem with it.  No-one is going to force you to buy that vegan panini and latte or download the beta videos, so if you aren't interested just ignore them. In terms of workout areas, as others have said, this means that I can come and use that area on my existing wall membership instead of paying for a separate gym membership, so no problem there either.

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

''but also bad as I believe the lack of appreciation for actual climbing is diminished''

your right to say that its good that walls are attracting fresh bodies in to them but does it really matter that people are using walls as a past time without any appreciation or knowledge of actual 'rock' climbing - if your not a fan of what these people are putting on social media about it then stop looking on social media ! simple.

the fact remains that people are active at the walls ( a good thing ) and if they don't head out to the crags then great, it means emptier crags for us lot while their money is still keeping my winter training facility going strong - perfect

What next - are you going to have a pop at people who partake in spin classes because they don't appreciate actual cycling #gr8spin2nite #feltlikeatourstage

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

The best ever bouldering wall was Broughton (now demolished). It had no music or coffee or other amenities, if it was still open I’d happily drive well over 20 miles to use it.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Or if you just go there for your lunch break as you work near it, might as well be able to grab a sandwich on the way back to the office.

In reply to Removed UserTommyfatlad:

It becomes an issue when climbing wall facilities are skewed to indoor climbers at the expense of training facilities. A good example is AW Liverpool where a great training venue was greatly diminished by the addition of Clip n Climb, hopefully the excellent AW Sheffield won’t go the same way.

 

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Good routes in my grade range on a decent sized wall with a good range of angles/styles to go at. Other than maybe a toilet and the ability to buy a mars bar nothing else is required. 

A local wall I sometimes use started serving pizza's, it's horrendous, the last thing I want when mid-session is to stop and have a pizza, even the smell of them is off-putting when you're trying to work. 

In reply to Neil Williams & Dave Garnett

Make you own butties - good training for going outside

 

In reply to Hat Dude:

Indeed, though if a wall can make a profit selling butties, keeping the cost of climbing itself down, why not?

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

As you mentioned, the average climbing wall user is not the same as someone posting on UKC.  The people checking the beta in the bouldering wall aren't going to be discussing whether using pads really makes a 20 yr old's first E8 really an E8, or that headpointing detracts from the pure ethics of trad.

The reason there's artisan coffee, vegan food, yoga, pizzas, and everything else is that it gets people through the doors and spending more money. Walls go bust all the time, so anything that keeps them going is a good thing.

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

I'd like somewhere that serves decent food for lunch or snacks . Not just vegan only stuff. Yes I'm looking at you Castle!

In reply to kevin stephens:

Agree with you on the kids clip and climb areas .But can understand that the walls probably need that sort of revenue to keep going as we're not all always in there spendi6money like the kids parties do .

In reply to mountain.martin:

For me. I'm not irritated but cafes offering vegan food. It's cafes that only offer vegan food with no other options. I don't want a vegan cheese toastie thank you .

In reply to kevin stephens:

I agree that the loss of a good winter training venue is a sad time, but these facilities are a business at the end of the day and therefor have to be made to pay. Additions such as ‘clip n climbs’ bring essential revenue to help keep these places open in a climate of rising costs.

Id like nothing more than to have walls available the way I want them, when I want them and to choose who’s in them but that’s just not realistic ( at least until I win the lotto ) you either embrace the situation at the wall you choose to go to and the people using them - social media and all - or learn to ignore it.

My point is that times are shifting and some people now go to Fontainebleau as their final destination ( me included ) and not just as a stop off on their way to bigger alpine routes in the same way a new generation are using walls as their destination and not venturing outside....... walls are just moving with the times.......

 

In reply to Removed UserJim25:

How many climbing walls have vegan only food? I know I haven't been in one. 

In reply to mik82:

Really? Racking my brain trying to think of more than a couple.

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Main thing is not having a load of tw*ts climbing there. Sadly it seems your wall has at least one  

In reply to deacondeacon:

Oh thank God, 

I was getting worried that no one was going to call me a t**t  in this thread

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

If you're going to moan about back in t'day, at least get back in t'day right. The first walls were long before basement woodies.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Talking about complaining about walls.. I got kicked just above the man bits when someone jumped on a boulder problem right next to the fingerboard I was mid hang on yesterday...

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

The following annoy me about walls:

The insistance on having to carry a card to get in. 

Having to travel miles and miles, and then when I get there they're too busy for my tastes. I know this is a function of where I live, and not the walls fault, but it still annoys me. 

I rope climb cos my knees are on their way out. Why set a route with a disproportionately difficult boulder problem crux at the top? If I wanted a 6a+ with a v7 boulder problem after, I could do that easily without that climb taking up one of the few 7s rope slots. Some walls are well populated in the 7s and 8s. Others are not, with just a handful of routes above 7a. 

Inconsistent, unrealistic grading and monotonous unimaginative setting. But who isn't in this camp, when it happens. 

 

What I like.

Interesting routes which maintain interest throughout. 

A wall with atmosphere, scene, soul. 

Good staff

Good food, if not on site,  nearby. 

Parking. 

 

 

 

In reply to Removed UserJim25:

Just this very afternoon the Castle cafe had cheese toasties made of cheese. I think the vegan option is provided for those who want it; it's not compulsory

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

Somewhere separate where they can put the large numbers of novices and boulderers that make the place economically viable.

Clean air

Background music that is in the background

PS. I trained, after a fashion, on the old Sobell corridor wall

In reply to kevin stephens:

I used to go there when I had the misfortune (self inflicted error) to live in Manchester for two years. It was just about the only good thing about Manchester and the objective dangers of driving to it were good training for the Alps.

In reply to kevin stephens:

I love the fact that the yummy mummies with their kiddies on the Ratho Clip 'n Climb are subsidising my training. Though the bouldering wall that was originally in that area was a great loss.

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

I think its important for people to not be/feel alienated at a wall.

I am a young 27 year old female who loves climbing (I try to climb 3 times a week indoor and outdoor when I can) and loves being outdoors, and to be truthful I probably wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for climbing. 

I was at the (climbing) gym with a sports bra on and a mother who wasn't climbing was letting her 2 kids use the steep bouldering area as a playground- in muddy trainers- a real bug bare of mine.

Then infront of her 2 young kids she TOLD me to 'put my flabby bits away'! Would she have told a man to put his top on? Yes my body is not 100% perfect but whose is?! They are not flabby bits they are my battle scars and I'm proud of them! Lucky I have this mentality I know a lot of people who would not have gone back to the wall because of the comment made!

In reply to spannaclimbs:

At some walls the staff definitely would, yes.  It's certainly Big Rock (MK)'s policy at both their walls that shirts must be worn (by everyone, not just one gender) and changing takes place in the changing rooms only.  The reason is that they like to promote a family and welcoming rather than "hard-knock climbing" atmosphere.

It was a bit controversial among the topless boulderers at the time the policy was introduced (who used the excuse of being too hot, but inevitably had the classic beanie on, without which they may not have been so) but it seems well-respected now.

On the shoes point I'm surprised how few walls seem to be bothered about people wearing outdoor trainers while climbing at a novice level.  I remember doing my CWA at Plas Y Brenin and them being quite big on "only climbing shoes on the wall" - I never heard that anywhere else.

In reply to TheClimbingWallCritic:

This is prob best wall I have been to and it was due to the mix of facilities and therefore crowd. Really good changing rooms with a free towel if you wanted it and a sauna (only on later in day)

https://touchstoneclimbing.com/ironworks/

overall it was the relaxed vibe and mix of different attitudes all doing something they liked.

 

Pure climbing walls get dictated to by one revenue stream and one crowd and one approach to safety etc which leads to a closed loop and a stifling ecosystem

 

Castle in London has a good community profile and this is reflected in it's ambience and atmosphere.

 

Diversification is the only way forward to modern walls.

 

 

And yes I am available.