UKC

Sports bras and topless men?

I am a young 27 year old female who loves climbing, I try to climb 3 times a week indoor and outdoors when I can, both in the UK and abroad, and to be truthful I probably wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for climbing and it's other connected elements. 

A while ago I was at the (climbing) gym with a sports bra and leggings on and a mother who wasn't climbing was letting her 2 kids use the steep bouldering area as a playground- in muddy trainers- a real bug bare of mine.

She then infront of her 2 young kids she TOLD me to 'put my flabby bits away'!

Would she have told a man to put his top on? Yes my body is not 100% perfect but whose is?!

They are not flabby bits they are my battle scars and I'm proud of them! Lucky I have this mentality I know a lot of people who would not have gone back to the wall because of the comment made!

Anyone been in a similar situation?

No but I'd probably tell her where to stick it.  Please tell the wall staff if she does it again. 

The only explanation for her spiteful comment is that she was jealous of your body. I would take it as a compliment

Totally unacceptable behaviour from her, please don't change how you act on account of her opinions. 

Sadly you do occasionally come across total dicks at walls (like anywhere else).  I would have been inclined to report her comments to the wall management, together with her letting her kids play around (on the mats?) which is pretty stupid and dangerous to them (but annoyingly common).

Glad it didn't put you off.

Yes, awfull behaviour. It wouldn't surprise me if she would have told a man to put his shirt on as well to be honest. 

Some walls do have a no tops off rule for some reason, something to do with creating a non threatening / family friendly environment. Personally I think it's silly, if people are working hard and it's warm then shirtless can bethe way to go, if that makes some people uncomfortable then it's them who need to change. 

To reply here as well as on the other thread.

Big Rock in MK has a policy of "shirts must be worn" in order to create a family and welcoming atmosphere (particularly for those starting out who may be intimidated by ripped people strutting around the place).  This is in line with most gyms, unlike in the 90s and before when they were full of massive sweat-stinking topless blokes and really weren't nice places for people starting out (even if the female and gay members might have enjoyed a bit of a peek).

I'm not quite sure exactly what you mean by sports bra - I suspect some would be OK and some wouldn't as they vary in length etc.  But certainly blokes would be told to put their top on by staff, and I've seen it on a number of occasions.  They also tell people to get changed in the changing room and not out on the floor.

It was a bit controversial with the classic topless boulderers to start with (often with complaints of being too hot, which removing the inevitable beanie might have served to solve).  However it now seems well-respected.

As for mucky trainers, it surprises me that more walls don't insist on climbing shoes being hired or used.  When I did my CWA at Plas Y Brenin they had that rule and were quite big on it.

Big Rock has quite good aircon in both its walls, so this isn't that much of an issue.  If it didn't I could see your point, but I think on balance, particularly on weekends when the kids clubs are on, I agree with them.

At walls which don't do kids clubs and are more about experienced climbers, I can understand a different policy, just as the policy probably differs between the likes of David Lloyd's and Bannatyne's as compared to some obscure independent iron-pumping gym in the back end of an industrial estate in a North East ex-mining town, or somesuch.  The policy may well be discernable by looking at how many massive jars of supplements are on sale in the reception

What a knob! You have absolutely no obligation to conform to a beauty standard in order to be allowed to take your top off. I suspect you're right that she wouldn't have made those comments to a man - there's a much higher expectation of women to be physically attractive (or to have made an effort at least) and we've normalised the idea that you should be ashamed of the parts of your body that aren't perfect and therefore hide them away.

Great eggcorn

Glad you were able to ignore her, some people are just tw@s. I run occasionally with my wife and her run club. Its not uncommon in the summer for the ladies to be in all manner of crop tops and sport bra type clothing. The club members are all shapes and sizes and happily no one give a sh1t

I've experienced "put your shirt on fatty" comments frequently when out climbing. My wife is cruel like that though.

But that's not really relevant unless spannaclimbs was at a wall that had that policy.

Even if the wall had that policy, staff telling her that policy requires shirts is different from some random person insulting her.

New word alert. Thank you 

I look forward to using that one in anger soon. 

Horrible think to happen, I would hope that I would have asked her if she thought it was appropriate to be such an arsehole in front of her children.

Anyway, I thought this thread was going to be about moobs!

I look forward to a "tops on" rule for swimming pools* to make them family friendly.

* I did actually complain about a topless bloke once but he was covered with neo-nazi tattoos depicting SS  symbols and image of violence and sexual violence which I though would be better voered up in a public place.

It's relevant in the sense that in some circles climbing without a shirt on is not considered socially acceptable.

Certainly she went about it the wrong way as giving people verbal abuse is never OK - if that wall had that policy, the correct way to do it would either be to ask politely pointing out the policy or report the matter to wall staff for them to deal with.  The same way I'd probably deal with a non-dangerous error of another kind such as someone tying in through their belay loop rather than the tie-in loops.

Though how people speak to people does vary around the country.  If you're in the North West, "put that away, you don't know where it's been" is a very common phrase.

I'd check the policy at the wall, and if it's okay with them I'd formulate a suitable response for any other time a similar person says something.

I've come from a shaky place myself, and it's a nice feeling when if you get somebody being unreasonable to you, you're polite back to them for your self respect while thinking what flea in the ear to give them next if they carry on.

After getting told off for going topless in a gym (a weights one, I mean, not a climbing one) I did wonder about how little would be acceptable. Vest tops were okay for men, sports bra tops for women; I was never bold enough to test what happened if I tried a bra top, or, going further, just a belt covering me nips

As others have said, many walls instigate a "tops on" policy that applies to both men and women.  In most walls I have used with this policy, men aren't allowed to climb topless, and women must wear more than just a cropped sports bra.  I don't know whether the wall you climb at implements a policy like this or not, but it is increasingly common.

My problem here is firstly that it should be the job of the wall staff to enforce their policies, not some random member of the public, and secondly any attempt to enforce such a policy by being spiteful or rude about someone's body is not on.  "I am sorry, but there is a tops on policy here.  Can I ask you to put a t-shirt on please" is a much better way of approaching this without getting personal.  To approach it the way this woman did is completely unacceptable.  And if the wall doesn't have such a policy, then she has no right to criticise how you dress anyway.

If this were me, I would ignore this particular woman, but seek clarity from the wall staff on their policy on topless climbing and also their policy on use of outdoor shoes on the wall (again, this varies between walls).  If the kids are getting in other peoples' way or otherwise unsafe, that should also be reported.

Not exactly but as a very sweaty, very hairy man I long ago learned people aren't shy of offering their unsolicited opinions about my body. 'That's nice, fu*k off'.

Some people are simply horrible, many thoughtless, most oblivious in their own little worlds, many kind. I'm glad you had the strength to take it in your stride and I hope you meet a better person next session.

jk

Which isn't phrased to make somebody feel bad about their own body like what the lady in the OP said.

Very true.

Not wanting to focus on Big rock in particular but you're sort of right regarding the air con. If a wall isn't hot then you shouldn't need your shirt off.

I'm only shirtless a handful of times indoors and it's when my top is getting / will get notabley sweaty and uncomfortable to wear. So if a wall has taken steps to stop that happening then I don't see there would be much need.

I can see how keeping men covered up might be favoured by some, but I'm not sure it's justifiable. People often mention children running around but why is this a problem? Is a man's chest sexual in a way that is harmful to children phycologicaly to see? You can be bear chested in public so legally it's deemed okay. And would the same apply to women?

Convention dictates they can't be bare chested but would an athletic woman in a sports bra be told to cover up because she is making less attractive looking women feel insecure about their bodies? Or would we go into some sort of anti body shaming SJW hole where we debate if anyone should be told to hide or not hide thier bodies. 

Personally I'm on the side of everyone can wear what they like in terms of what they do and don't cover within the bounds of decenty (and even there I think there is some debate). If it creates problems I think the focus needs to be on making other people more accepting of others bodies. I don't like to see fat bodies on display I admit it repulses me, but I accept it isn't up to me what they look like or whether they choose to show it. The same should apply to fit and healthy people as well, they shouldn't have to cover up to save others from feelings of inadequacy. 

Two totally different issues being raised here. 

The OP has been a victim of body shaming. The lady complaining is rude and offensive and not fit to be a role model to children, we all come in different shapes and sizes so whilst yes a bulgy size 20 may not be classically pretty, they have just as much right to wear skimpy clothes as a size 6 and should never feel bullied or intimidated for their clothing choices  (especially so when doing a sport, as function should always come before fashion)  

Secondly is it acceptable for ladies to climb in a cropped sports top (or for men topless)? I would say of course it is, totally different to a gym where you sweaty body is in direct contact with the equipment. Some Climbing walls may disagree with me and say tops on with nipples and tummy buttons covered, that is their choice and so long as it is consistent for all body shapes their venue their rules.

This isn't directed particularly at you, but is just an observation about tops on policies, which you happened to be the last person to comment on...

For me, personally, it is absolutely acceptable for men to climb topless and women to climb in sports bras if they so desire.  Having said that, one of my regular walls implemented a topless policy relatively recently and since then I have noticed a marked increase in the number of climbers from ethnic and religious minorities, particularly muslim women.  If this kind of policy makes climbing more inclusive, then I think it is a great thing.  Having said that, the "won't someone think of the children" argument winds me up.  Most children will have seen people wearing less at the swimming pool, or even in the park on a hot summer day.

I would go further and say that children who only ever see pictures of airbrushed Instagrammed models in crop tops/bare chests (ubiquitous on the Internet, TV and advertising) rather than a broad cross section of actual healthy  tummies and abs are the ones that are going to end up at risk of unhealthy attitudes, body dysmorphia, selfie obsessions, shaming disabled people etc.

I think it's still mingin sweating onto the mats.

I don't boulder, but yes and I guess more so now most walls have carpet covers rather than wipe clean non absorbent vinyl.

I find a crowded indoor bouldering place to be much more attractive without half-naked (sweaty) persons of either sex. Nothing sexual in my opinion more a hygiene thing maybe? I may have to think about it some more, but I wouldn't want to have men or women topless on the bus or in the supermarket as well. 

Outdoors on the rock I don't mind though, usually more space there.

And is wasn't very nice with the vinyl... just sits there waiting to be stood on or fallen onto.

For blokes I've never got why it's an issue to wear vest, they are cheap and I doubt they inhibit performance at all.

I've always worn a t-shirt, but I'd never thought of the sweat pooling onto the matting. It can't inhibit performance at all I would have thought?

I've seen it often enough. You never been splatted belaying on overhanging routes? I have.

That's the vest Tim. As in I doubt a vest inhibits performance compared to topless.

This is what I took from the post too.  It's less a question of whether or not it's "decent" to boulder in a sports bra and more a question of whether or not the person would've said something like that to a woman built like Shauna Coxey or similar.  It's a concern for me (not being modelled on the Shauna physique myself) and being self-conscious is a substantial barrier to my enjoyment a lot of the time.  I hope I would know what to say in that situation, though what I would want to say to the woman in front of her children is liable to get me slapped!

I know you mean anti-topless policy, but this is much funnier as written. 

Hard to comment without pictures

;¬)

Though this does raise the question of which bit of a topless man is the objectionable bit? A ‘classic’ vest with wide arm holes and a low front and back neckline doesn’t really cover that much - certainly not enough to prevent anyone feeling intimidated if they were that way inclined. 

Is it all about the nipple-belly zone? Society is weird  

CLIMBERS: "I remember the old days at the Crudginton Wall - the only climbing was a brick wall with some of the cement chipped out, you could deck out eight metres onto bare concrete if you slipped near the top, some of the bigger holds had rats nesting in them, it got down to -15 degrees in winter and over 30 in summer, and the roof leaked so half the routes were wet half the time, unless it was cold in which case they were icy. But damn that place produced some strong climbers."

ALSO CLIMBERS: "How can I be expected to train properly if I have to wear a t-shirt? It's just unthinkable that I could get anything done under those conditions."

if they don't have aircon with chalk filters on, then their stance on appropriate clothing is very weak when balanced against safety

Airconditioning at walls... Now there's a nice feature not offered by any of the walls I go to... :-/

Yes but did the rats have tops on?

So in summary, topless climbing is absolutely acceptable, but making it unacceptable is a great thing (although winds you up)! 

Oops!

Nah, never.

How restrictive are t-shirts?

Er, yes - that sounds about right

Try Ratho - natural air con

The dripping sweat issue is a good one, though I question how often it really is relevant. I suspect the objection to topless climbers is more often based on psychological factors and that sweat issues are a convenient rationalisation that is harder to argue against. Either way, it would be shame if we were to regress to some kind of 1950s or even Victorian prudishness.

doubtless this view will be deemed misogynistic and get numerous thumbs down - entirely deservedly and to avoid the endless debate, I accept I am a moron, but my honest view is:-

a. women in sports bras are to be encouraged. In all walks off life

b. men with their tops off at climbing walls are likely to be narcissistic, ego driven be*lends and are not to be encouraged

It's two separate issues really. 

If the 10% of people who find it absolutely necessary to climb with their tops off/in skimpy bras were chubby bloaters, individuals, or ladies then there is no issue (other than that women being a bag of shite to you). 

Tops-on policy is there because of groups of testosterone-filled muscle-bags making everyone else feel intimidated. 

Problem is it's hard to have one rule for one and one for another.

I personally have no issue with the aforementioned chubby bloaters or individuals, but the minute there are big groups of macho pr*cks with their shirts off 'trying hard', I can see why some places have a policy. And that's the opinion of someone who certainly isn't intimidated in any way by these guys. I can't imagine what it must be like for more delicate people, turning up to try a new activity for the first time. Or worse still, someone who has been a victim of a sexual assault etc. 

It's a debate that will (and does) go on forever but the more climbing goes mainstream, the more walls will implement it as policy. I for one am glad of that because I've never felt slightly inclined to go shirts-off, and if it upsets some people then people should be more considerate. 

This may well be the case in many places nowadays, but it is a reflection of current attitudes in wider society. 30 years ago nobody would have bat an eyelid at topless male climbers as it was so widespread as to be the norm indoors in summer. Narcissism would then expressed and identified by behaviours rather than simply by clothing choice. I'm not sure how we got from there to the current view held by many that simply climbing topless itself is an expression of narcissism.

I find a vest lets my armpits cool better while still catching sweat. That's the main reason I always wear one, I do drip and I don't want to inflict my pale ale/chilli infused perspiration on anyone else. 

good question. I don't know. maybe because it is now fairly uncommon, and those males that do take their tops off tend to have "good" bodies

I'd not really think of it as narcissistic (although I dunno, there might be walls that I don't go to that are full of topless men flexing and looking at themselves in mirrors) so much as being a bit macho, a bit tribal, a bit of a display of bad-boy self-confidence. Which was probably just the same 30 years ago, it's just that climbers who bothered going to a wall in the late eighties were almost by definition part of a self-confident, bad-boy, macho tribe (or aspired to be), whereas these days a lot of climbing walls seem to depend on nervous newbies, bumblies, parents with kids and other non-hardcore punters who to actually pay the rent, and I can understand why a wall owner might worry that too much of a Fight Club atmosphere puts that at risk...

What?!

You'd catch more sweat in a t-shirt!

Shame on you.

A female friend seemed to like the number of tattooed and topless climbers in a bouldering place which shall be nameless (in case they for some reason change policy after reading this).

Outdoors it nicer in many ways 

Sure, eye candy is nice.  But I don't particularly like being ogled by people I don't know, and I assume people I don't know don't like being ogled by me.  So I would classify this as a reason for having a tops on policy rather than a reason against...

It might be partly a gendered response. My guess is that generally the lines between friendly appreciation or flirting and overt ogling / objectification will be different if it is men admiring women vs women admiring men because of the social impact of women being objectified far more, and the power imbalance that can lead into creepiness or fear. And goodness how same sex ogling would be treated!

anyway, the solution is clear. The wall should have clearly advertised Modest Mondays and Tops Off Tuesdays so people can vote with their feet. 

Can we add wear what you want Wednesdays to that list? 

I'm sort of waiting for someone to open a big new wall with plenty of space and lots of daylight and a nice cafe for the parents to relax with a flat white while the kids are at Junior Squad Training on a Saturday morning without having their sensibilities upset by grunting shirtless neanderthals and then a discrete staircase in one corner leading down to the POWER DUNGEON in the basement which is cramped and dingy and full of steep, crimpy bouldering, system boards moon boards and crack machines, where they blast metalcore at conversation-disrupting volumes and enforce a strict no-shirts policy AT ALL TIMES.

Pitty your not local, I would be happy to come along and show the ignorant bint my flabby bits and believe me there are lots of them. 

Yes, I agree, I was being tongue in cheek,. 

I personally love climbing without a shirt on because of the sense of freedom it gives me, especially outdoors with the closeness to nature I feel without a shirt on. If an indoor wall has a policy, so be it, it should be respected.

Those genuinely worried about hygiene should probably be more concerned about the amount of skin, sweat, hair, and blood on walls/holds more if I'm frank.

 

Thong Thursdays?

That would just be wrong. Or would it?

youtube.com/watch?v=ftidNbFBdgY&

That's commendably considerate, but people seem to be unnecessarily afraid of other people's sweat. Unexpected sweat flicking is admittedly icky to think of, but there doesn't seem to be a logical reason to worry. I watch baffled at gyms as folk wipe and spray down rowing machine seats and benches when swapping between press sets - what are they thinking they're going to catch? 

I stopped using a particular wall when it was suggested that I'd benefit from a sports bra

Should've slapped man out. 

Modest Mondays - full Victorian clothing required/ neck to ankle coverage

Tops off Tuesdays - Male and Female, no tops allowed

Wear what you want Wednesdays - Anything goes as long as you are actually wearing something

Thong Thursdays - as in the title

Free Fridays - wear nothing/ full nudity, no clothing allowed (Male and Female)

=)

Given that most climbing walls are open at weekends, I'd be interested to know what your suggestions are for Saturdays and Sundays. (Maybe: Saturday is Sartorial Day - everyone must be dressed very stylishly; and Sunday is Suntan Day: only those with spectacular sun tans are allowed to go topless?)

A variety of infectious diseases? 

Apparently this lad's uncle Jack used to go 'tops-off' at his local wall (skip to around 2:20)

youtube.com/watch?v=o2nv5Mn9OVA&

One of my local walls has a tops on policy for men, but women are allowed to climb in sports bras, which seems strange to me. When questioned about it, the wall's response was that men were welcome to wear crop tops if they wanted to, rather missing the point.

Ah good call, I forgot about weekends. How about:

Silky Saturday - Everyone climbs in their underwear only (Silk and lace only, no y fronts or granny knickers allowed)

Spiffy Sunday - Everyone wears their finest finery.

=)