UKC

Hi, my question is quite easy.

Indoor gyms have virtually no slabs, no vertical walls, but they are plenty of overhanging walls. Overhanging walls require a lot of power and they are not suggested for beginners (climbing technique is hard to learn on such walls).

I like slabs because they require less effort and good technique. So, why "plastic" gyms do not have slabs?

Regards,

U.

In reply to Peeboaty:

White Spider has several......

In reply to Peeboaty:

It's easier to set hard routes on an overhang, and the fall is safer

In reply to Peeboaty:

Mile End has several.

The Castle has several to too. 

 

In reply to Peeboaty:

Nottingham Climbing Centre has several.

In reply to Peeboaty:

Outdoor slabs usually have inset holds. Indoor walls normally have protruding holds.

If a climber falls on a slab (even if on Top-Rope, but much more so on Lead), much more likely to get injured with protruding holds than inset holds.

Therefore indoor gyms prefer to have wall surfaces that are at least vertical. Their normal approach making the routes easier is to provide handholds larger and more positive to grasp.

Seems like lots of their customers like that . . . perhaps because it's like monkeys climbing trees, while slab climbing is like . . . ??

Ken

In reply to Peeboaty:

The Reach has a very good slab.

In reply to Peeboaty:

Alter Rock has loads....

Kendal has slabs.

In reply to Peeboaty:

My local wall has some but I really don't like climbing on them.  Hitting holds hurts too much, and they're no use for getting stronger

In reply to Peeboaty:

In cramped premises, I suppose the extra floorspace they take up could be a consideration. I still struggle to think of any walls I've visited that have no slabs. Where have you been climbing that doesn't have any?

In reply to Peeboaty:

Because we go to the wall to get fit and strong.

Most walls have slabs. 

Slabs can be hard to set well for hard problems (and the hard problems don't last well as they often cake up quickly). 

Slabs are often more dangerous to fall from as there is more to hit on the way down.

In reply to Peeboaty:

Might be true where you live (Italy according to your profile?) but practically every indoor gym I can think of has slabby and vertical sections.

In fact I'd say the general trend in newer places in the last few years has been back towards more plus- or minus-vertical terrain and away from great big roofs & overhangs. More so for lead walls than bouldering, and probably mainly because big overhangs are intimidating for beginners.

EDIT TO ADD: agree with what others have said about the obvious hazard of hitting things on the way down. One of my local walls set a rather nice thin, crimpy slab 7a. Great I thought, slate training. Except that they cunningly set a 4a on the same line, on whose huge jugs anybody wanting to work the 7a was going to sacrifice their kneecaps.

In reply to Peeboaty:

Indoor slabs at bouldering walls are a good way to get hurt, and route setters dislike having to clean blood from holds.  Also, to make indoor slabs sufficiently interesting, you either have to use holds so small that they are horribly skin-ripping, or slopey holds that are unusable with a bit of traffic. 

My physiology is best suited to the vert and crimpy, and that's what gravitate to outdoor.  But I accept that steep, and preferably positive, is what walls do best.  To my mind, in terms of "opportunity cost", slabs are a waste of floor space, and a waste of training time.

In reply to Peeboaty:

This could be the first thread where UKC-ers are unanimous in their opinion although Mr Durran bizarrely received a dislike for offering the same opinion regarding the training aspect as 'wbo'.

I agree with everyone btw. As per Trangia, The Reach has slabs for routes and a couple of offerings in one of the bouldering rooms and the isolated boulder.

Just back from 30 degrees Font. Slabs are sh*t

In reply to U_X.    The  Reach in Woolwich  (London)  has some fine slab routes.

 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Of course you could argue that there is more to climbing than strength and that slabs require very different technique to overhangs so including some would help the newer generation of indoor climbers transition outdoors. Not often you have to rely on your feet on an overhang is it...

In reply to beardy mike:

You rely on them all the time.

In reply to U_X:

Several good slabs at Westway. 

In reply to 1poundSOCKS: You know what I mean. If you have good footwork on an overhang, it doesnt mean it’ll be good on slabs and vice versa. On overhangs you simply dont use your feet exclusively for some moves.

 

In reply to U_X:

I also think it's relevant that in my experience indoor slabs never tend to translate to outdoor slabs, which vary so much on rock type and how to climb it.
Roughly they go..

Plastic - here's a foot in an akward place, it's basically the only option, find a way to place your foot there and rock over onto it to reach a hold.

Grit - you can place your foot on almost anything and it will stick with the precise pressure.

Limestone - look for the positive tiny edge and there is absolutely tons of those tiny but positive edges... and really a bunch of ways of doing the climb.

Slate - no friction in most places, pretty limited friction still on the positive edges!

 

In reply to zmv:

The old Beacon used to have a slate slab made of actual slate. 

Not any more since they moved, I assume?

In reply to U_X:

In my experience climbing indoors is not just to 'get fit and strong'. For many it is an activity that has it's own rewards in terms of the enjoyment of solving problems on simulated rock with an additional purpose of preparing for outdoor climbing. 

To achieve the latter the walls should echo the environment of real rock which for many people is leaning back slabs & occasionally vertical walls. 

The average trad grade of UKC users is currently MVS and for these and indeed for many climbs up to the low E grades the real rock is not overhanging and as this seems to be the domain of many climbers then the walls should include some areas that reflect this range. 

Well set slab/wall routes that develop the use of body position, small hand/finger holds & foot placement are really useful to develop skills for the outdoors and very enjoyable in their own right. 

I do understand the safety issue posed by mixing big holds for easy routes with smaller holds on slabs but I have seen several examples where the setters have managed it well by segregation of juggier routes - e.g. Large slab at Ratho next to speed wall.

On a final note I really don't like the term 'climbing gym' though I realise it is widely used. I think it conveys an impression that the indoor wall is just about fitness & strength whereas I have tried to argue that it is about more than that. I have no problem with there being additional equipment or facilities to develop strength & fitness but the heart of the facility is the climbing so I will stick to the term 'climbing wall' thank you.

In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:

"To my mind, in terms of "opportunity cost", slabs are a waste of floor space, and a waste of training time."

Having spent a fair bit of time at The Reach on their slabs working on technical footwork, when I encountered a damp slab in North Wales, with a big runout between places I could get some gear into the rock, I was extremely pleased that the time I'd spent on those wooden slabs gave me the confidence to not crap myself even more than I was.  If I'd not been able to make use of that wasted floor space, and make the most of wasted training time, then I don't think I'd have completed the pitch, and the climb would I have been far less safer.

 

 

 

In reply to two_tapirs:

What you are forgetting is that outdoor slabs are a waste of rock and climbing time, so you shouldn't have been climbing it anyway.

In reply to d_b:

I didn't want to be the first to say it................   Thanks!

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

I was being a bit btongue in cheek when I said that, though I think there is a lot of truth in it for many people (certainly for most people who don't see indoor walls as an end in themselves).

I totally agree with you there. Really Hate it. But yes, sadly becoming increasingly acceptable in this country

 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Hi Robert - have a like for that to counter the dislike I gave you for your original post! 

We can all enjoy climbing wherever we do it and I know that you are particularly active on the adventure aspect having seen one of your talks.

In reply to beardy mike:

Wasn't being funny, but I know now. In my defence, it wasn't very clear. I just didn't want you to think us overhang monkeys don't use our feet.

In reply to two_tapirs:

Perhaps indoor walls should have slabs covered in water and lichen to provide a decent grounding for such routes? 

Seriously though, I  like steep slabs / walls outdoors but feel the finger strength, core, and precision for those routes is best gained indoors on relatively steep woodies. Indoor slabs, if well set, can help but are relatively inefficient shin-barkers. However, YMMV.

In reply to U_X:

Life is too short for indoor slabs.

In reply to AlanLittle:

its not just kneecaps, large holds at face height tend to concentrate the mind, not to mention ones midway between knees and chin

All six Awesome Walls have slabs

 

In reply to U_X:

The Works has some good slab bouldering. But i did badly crack my ankle falling onto a lower protruding jug/pinch block. IMO it would be better to stick to tiny dinks/nubbins setting wise. At least would be a little more like outside..and less dangerous. Its all good though..love technical slab climbing

In reply to kipper12:

I think the value of indoor slabs is not the practice is gives climbing outdoor slabs because in my experience there's not a great cross over between the two, they are physically very different.

However, indoor slabs do give great practice for the kinds of risk judgement that's really useful for outdoor climbing. Indoors you don't often have to think 'what happens if I fall off' but you often do have to make this judgement for indoor slabs! 

In reply to MeMeMe:

Yes, unless the route setting is exceptionally good.

You shouldn't have to do so - surely that should be the route setter's job.

If indoor slabs have any value I think it is probably to give easy practice leading where beginners can get used to clipping without hanging off one arm.

 

In reply to U_X:

The walls/climbing gyms that I go to have slabs - Mile End was several and The Castle has a dedicated slab area called The Quarries.

Mile End's route climbing area is very small but has one or two slabs and The Castle has routes on slabs on two floors.

The White Spider has slab problems on both floors and I remember the old Arch in Bermondsey having slabs.

In reply to Removed User:

I agree.

In reply to nniff:

On both floors!

In reply to David Barlow:

Both routes and problems.