UKC

I had thought there was a bit of a consensus emerging that this was VII,8 but the UKC voting suggests majority still think VIII,8.

It's a long time since I did it, does anyone want to offer a more detailed opinion?

I remember reading somewhere that the FA team thought it VII and that it might go back to this in the next guide. I never for a minute thought that it might be me who'd be doing that!

Hi Dave its been a long time since I did it but here's my 2 pennies worth. I think its VII,8. My reasoning is that all 3 pitches are challenging but you can get shakes and rests so its not crazily sustained, also all the cruxes are very well protected if I remember right? I think the free hanging abseil approach can be intimidating and wonder if that is part of the reason some have thoughts it's worth VIII. It's not an easy VII but a similar grade to Central Buttress with the starting blocks start on Stob Corrie. Ventricle is harder. Bruised Violet on the same buttress is at least a full grade harder. I found Sioux Wall quite a bit harder but that might have been wearing first ascent goggles and perhaps they are similar i.e. a 'solid' VII,8 to those experienced at VIII. Don't know if that helps as its just subjective opinions. Something I am more certain on is that in terms of quality it's amongst the very top tier of routes in Scotland. 

Thanks for that Ian, quite similar to my thoughts. I thought that pitch two was the only one with any moves of tech 8 and that was just going through the overlap. Basically not enough tech 8 climbing to warrant VIII. I think everyone agrees on the quality though!

It's a long time since I climbed it, but that's my memory too. Great climbing but not quite sustained enough for VIII

In reply to:

If I keep it at VIII I'll definitely need to upgrade Mistral!

I certainly found it more serious than Sioux Wall, which is very positive (and I’d say is middle of the road VII,8).

If you’re grading for an onsite, then I think someone leading P2 who is climbing VII (I.e. myself), might get a bit of a shock. Pretty bold and nervy gaining the peg out of the corner. 

Personally, I don’t think VII,8 really reflects the style of the route, which is a bit thin and tenuous in places and not always the easiest to protect, although all the steep bits have good gear so maybe I’m talking nonsense. 

Dare I say, there’s maybe a wider issue with certain higher grade routes being undersold in terms of difficulty that is squashing the grading scale a little bit. 

Dave,

I think top end VII is fair. The abseil and situation add to the experience but middle pitch is the only ‘hard’ pitch really (and not sustained etc). I found it a bigger experience than Sioux wall certainly for a few reasons.

Rampart Wall probably has harder climbing and similarly protected (also at VII). Mistral sounds to be VIII. Ventricle probably defines how hard VIIs can be and Blood sweat is easier I’d say.

I recall Jase Currie had some good stories of 2 or 3 attempts to get the 2nd ascent. I think that might where the suggestion of grade VIII stemmed from… 

I did it with Nathan earlier this year and had similar thoughts to him. Maybe it was the fairly snowy conditions we had but found the start of p1 and the start of p2 to both be pretty bold and hard simultaneously.

I wouldn't say I'm great at grading, and a bit of boldness makes clearly judging the grade even harder. But this felt like a grade VIII experience to me (based on a fairly small number of routes I've climbed at the grade). Certainly I found this much harder than sioux wall (with summer finish).

More than happy to be told I'm wrong, just sharing my honest opinions from the day.

It’s all in the good book Andy, chapter 2

More than two decades later I still don’t have enough experience of VIII and over to feel I can offer reliable input; pride might get tied up in that too. It’s hovering around the borderline for sure but it felt harder than anything else I’d done at the time, hence the suggestion of VIII back then. Imho the slab on p2 is technically as difficult as the roof if that makes any difference.

Irrespective of the grade, it remains a stunning climb.