UKC

Stephen Ashworth made a stunning lead of this awesome winter line yesterday. It went at viii 9.
I can honestly say this is the best winter route I have ever been on. It is also probably the hardest winter route in the lakes.
Nick Bullock and Dave Hunter are going to attempt to repeat it today.
I ll post some photos later.

In reply to Stuart Wood at Rock and Run:

See also; http://www.ukclimbing.com/caff/forums/t.php?t=33093&v=1#447275

J

In reply to Stuart Wood at Rock and Run:

Second ascent of snickersnack on saturday the 4th by dark horse Nick Bullock and Dave Hunter. grade and quality confirmed.

In reply to Stuart Wood at Rock and Run: Stuart - good to see your porky frame is still getting up the big numbers. Where Snickersnack? Roger

In reply to Roger Grimshaw:

I like to think of it as a well honed climbing machine rather than porky.
Snickersnack is just to the left of engineers slab on gable crag.
Did you see the thread on this forum where Ken Wilson was trying to contact you.
Hope to see you soon mate.

In reply to Stuart Wood at Rock and Run:
I wonder if it's as well honed as mine after the Christmas 'training'...I think you've got a head start on me though, mate!

In reply to Stuart Wood at Rock and Run:
Gable Crag (p55)

An ascent of Snicker Snack, the classic three star summer E3, 5c with the use of crampons and ice-axes has been
reported (3rd January 2003). The climbers were Stephen Ashworth and Stuart Wood. The grade given is VIII (9).
Needless to say the ascent of what seems likely to have been a rock climb with a covering of hoarfrost and powder
snow on it has caused some controversy which has not been lessened by various rumours that have accompanied it. It
is to be hoped that the first ascentionists will submit a description of their ascent and the style it was done in to clear
these matters up and to set minds at rest. The route received a repeat ascent the following day by Nick Bullock and
Dave Hunter.

Troll (HVS) was climbed by Dave Birkett and Mary on the 4th January 2003, grade thought to be VII (8).

Engineers Slabs with Alternate Arete Finish was climbed by Nick Bullock, Tim Blakemore, Dave Hunter on 5th
January 2003 at VI/VII (7).

Jabberwock was climbed by Dave Birkett and "Paddy" on 6th January 2003 at VII (7).

All these ascents (together with many other non-first ascents done during this period) are fairly controversial in terms of
just what constitutes a winter route. If all it needs its some snow on the ledges, hoarfrost on the crag, and a little ice or
verglas in the cracks then they all count. However it seems likely that as little as 10 years ago they would not have
been considered in condition by even the most enthusiastic of winter climbers. What seems almost unavoidable is that
such ascents will almost certainly damage the rock and whilst a small flake getting knocked off a VDiff or Severe may
not change the nature of the route much, a similar sized piece of rock going missing from an E3 may make a big
difference. In addition to which, repeated use of axes in protection cracks may radically change the nature of the
gear-placements on a summer rock climb. So is it the climbers climbing these routes who are in the wrong? Or is it
those who are objecting to them who are out of date with what (in the days of global warming) constitute winter
conditions. According to the first winter ascentionist of Eagle Front in Birkness Combe, the crucial traverse on that
route had ice 18 inches thick on it 1963 - will we ever see the like again? And if not, is this the acceptable style of the
future for hard ascents in the Lake District?

In reply to have you seen this?:
dear anonymous- all these ascents were done in impeccable modern mixed condition. if it was glencoe or the northern corries the conditions you describe would be considered excellent for the harder mixed routes.
verglas was present
cracks were quite icy
the crag was well rimed

with reference to the rumours-
steve had climbed the route as a summer line
he attempted ti with john kelly and myself retreating after breaking an axe.
the line was apparently abbed before the first ascent but there was no pre testing of placements etc.
nick led the crux ground up on the second ascent.


who are you by the way.

In reply to have you seen this?:


Bzzzt. The modern snowed-up rock ethic was well established ten years ago. Many major Scottish and Lakes fwa's were done in the eighties / early nineties (eg loads of Northern Corries routes, and indeed Engineers Slab itself.) But you can look back much further to other cutting edge winter ascents of summer routes, eg Patey on Eagle Ridge. Winter ascents of snowed up rock routes are a long established facet of UK climbing.

You are either behind the times or a poor troll Mr Anonymous.

In reply to have you seen this?:

Such routes have no appeal to me but you have to admire the skill, strength and tenacity in those that climb them. This is not winter climbing to me BUT if it is to others then so be it.

If by climbing these routes the actual nature of the rock climbs in summer is drastically altered then in my view such ascents are unjustified. Only those that climb these routes can truly know what damage, if any, they are doing.

In reply to SimonW:

This has all been done to death on here before... often the best mixed lines are crap in summer (wet & turfy) but some good summer routes are also great winter lines (such as the routes on Gable). If they come into nick on a reasonably regular basis (and Gable does) then that makes them fair game imho.

In reply to Chris Thorpe:

Even if it means cracks being enlarged, flakes hacked off etc? I am not saying this happens but what I am saying is that IF it does happen then IMHO they are not warranted.

In reply to SimonW:
And that's a fair point. Also unwarranted is gardening to create summer routes removing useful winter holds. IMHO.

In reply to Dave Hunter:

Agreed if they are established winter routes but surely gardening will make these routes even harder in winter

In reply to Dave Hunter:
Well done Hunter, Woody and the rest of you guys, getting up some pretty awesome stuff in the Lakes. Winter E3's?! I can't even get my lardy bod up them in summer!
I've just had 2 weeks powder sking in La Grave. No Ice - too warm - until Sat 4 Jan 03, suddenly down to -16c. What ice that was there was lean & detached. High Avalanche Risk. Got back to the Lakes Monday 6, very exciting looking conditions. Keep up the good work lads
Yours aye
Davie Sanderson

In reply to have you seen this?:
What people forget is that if Marshal & co had the modern gear that is available today, they would have been putting up similar winter routes, and the debate would still be going on.With modern training methods, diet & state of the art gear why shouldnt people want to progress, although looking at some of the lads in rock&run, i dont what diet they are on.I better go now, as iam having a barrow load of turf delivered to Jean jeanie.Live & let live.

In reply to have you seen this: I also saw this report on the FRCC web site, new winter routes section.

In reply to pj:
I didn't realise this was from the FRCC site. Some personal observations:

They are clearly out of touch with Scottish developments over the past twenty years.
Steve is well known to some prominent FRCC members who could have rung him to check details. Woody is not exactly unknown as a lakes activist (summer) either and is again easily contactable.
Steve has submitted a two page email to Steve Reid re the ascent.
They have no business spreading unfounded rumours on their website.
Anyone from the FRCC (or indeed anyone else for that matter) who wants to discuss this with me can ring me on 07968776820 or pop into Rock and Run.

In reply to Dave Hunter:

I didn't realise either but here it is:-

http://www.frcc.co.uk/rock/newroutes/newroutes2003-2004/win03/wint03.htm

Perhaps the FRCC might make a statement confirming they've actually been soundly asleep ever since the late seventies. They will of course be censuring all members who've engaged in nefarious modern practices such as mixed climbing on snowed-up rock, in the intervening period. That would be an interesting and long list of names.

Or perhaps instead the anonymous writer, having made first class fools of both themself and the FRCC, will be apologising for their ignorance and insinuations. Concern for the rock is fair enough, but for pete's sake it helps to have a clue what you're talking about before you mouth off in public....

In reply to Dave Hunter: Well done on your repeat of Snickersnack, top performance on a brilliant sounding route. If it is VIII,9 though the Man Trap must be IX,10! I'm sure you remember our excellent day on Minus One Gully a few years ago

Just kidding! Well done.

In reply to Mike Pescod:
I've always felt the Mantrap should be upgraded. Glad you agree
Good to hear from you Mike- you seem to have been getting a bit done yourself in recent years.
And yes Minus One was fantastic was it not.

In reply to Stuart Wood at Rock and Run:
Well done Steve, brilliant effort,

Asprin boy langdale

In reply to Stuart Wood at Rock and Run: well done to steve and woody and who gives a f*ck i'm off to smash hubble to pieces with my axes tommorow, enjoy yourselves and f*ck every one else anyway i'm off to bum my bird now she dont like it but i do so f*ck her! get my drift

In reply to sam watt:

Yes you are an angry young man!

In reply to Stuart Wood at Rock and Run: typical you leave the country for a short time and your mates steal your best new route ideas...well Im going of to sulk about the whole thing by the pool....nong khap... 2 more carlsberges please...(anger therapy available out here Sam) Sawadii Pii Mai me old muckas

In reply to Stuart Wood at Rock and Run: anyone done the Crack yet on gimmer...hyslops beyond it now , so take up the gauntlet woody!!!!