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Just seen Kilnsey Crag is for sale if there are any keen Climbers out there wanting to own it ?
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/135697799#/?channel=COM_BUY
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In reply to Supertrickywoocheese:
Sounds like one for the bmc and a generous benefactor.
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In reply to Supertrickywoocheese:
How many climbers on a summer day? Just trying to figure out parking/access charges...
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In reply to Supertrickywoocheese:
Looks like it's got damp issues in those photos.
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In reply to Removed User:
£5 climber/day, average of 5 every day of year, 16 years break even.
In reply to Supertrickywoocheese:
£150k? Might be a bit steep.
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
> £150k? Might be a bit steep.
The estate agent blurb, it's already sssi etc.. and they say possible diversity enhancements! Always over selling.
In reply to ExiledScot:
Hmmm - some bolt on holds might lower the grades a bit and open it out for the mass consumption...
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In reply to Supertrickywoocheese:
Surely the only reason anyone would pay 150k for that sliver of land would be to secure or block access for climbing?
jk
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In reply to Removed User:
Or a roof over the top, canopy, or a lean to. Yorkshire's best all weather, all season venue.
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In reply to jkarran:
> Surely the only reason anyone would pay 150k for that sliver of land would be to secure or block access for climbing?
A sceptic might think they know someone in the climbing world will buy what is almost worthless as a piece of land to them.
Post edited at 16:21
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In reply to ExiledScot:
Maybe - but damp-proofing against the seepage is going to be pricey...
Post edited at 16:24
In reply to jkarran:
> Surely the only reason anyone would pay 150k for that sliver of land would be to secure or block access for climbing?
According to my map the crag is CRoW access land so climbing is allowed whoever owns it.
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In reply to Supertrickywoocheese:
I like this bit from the description.
"Kilnsey Crag is internationally recognised amongst the rock climbing community as one of the most iconic and challenging climbs to be conquered."
Anyone on here ever conquered Kilnsey?
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In reply to ExiledScot:
Possible biodiversity enhancements??? Wha?? Agent: "This much sought after property could be further enhanced by installing a pair of woodpeckers and a half dozen African swallows under the eaves"
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In reply to Supertrickywoocheese: I’m confident that the EU would provide grant to buy a crag at the drop of a hat . Oh wait…….. what ? No . NO ! Really ? So what did we do that for ?
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In reply to pec:
> I like this bit from the description.
> "Kilnsey Crag is internationally recognised amongst the rock climbing community as one of the most iconic and challenging climbs to be conquered."
> Anyone on here ever conquered Kilnsey?
I lost my temper once and shouted at the crag. No response so I'd say I won.
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In reply to ExiledScot:
> The estate agent blurb, it's already sssi etc.. and they say possible diversity enhancements! Always over selling.
I assume that will be in reference to improving habitats and biodiversity and as such being able to get higher payments from the various ELMS schemes.
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In reply to ExiledScot:
> Sounds like one for the bmc and a generous benefactor.
The BMC should consider this.
A crowd fund might get a large chunk of it.
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In reply to Arms Cliff:
> I assume that will be in reference to improving habitats and biodiversity and as such being able to get higher payments from the various ELMS schemes.
The wording is odd, it says they aren't selling the subsidy rights, but not sure if they mean this year, or all years. Hunting and fishing rights aren't being sold either.
In reply to Steve Claw:
£50 donation from anyone who has ever climbed there, they become a Friends of Kilnsey Crag member for life!
Post edited at 21:16
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In reply to Lankyman:
> I lost my temper once and shouted at the crag. No response so I'd say I won.
The crag was just taking the high ground
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In reply to pec:
> I like this bit from the description.
> "Kilnsey Crag is internationally recognised amongst the rock climbing community as one of the most iconic and challenging climbs to be conquered."
> Anyone on here ever conquered Kilnsey?
I think most of the climbs lower off. Shame to put in all that effort but never conquer the crag. 😂
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In reply to Supertrickywoocheese:
"The vendor has claimed the BPS entitlements ...they are not included in the sale"
In reply to ChrisBrooke:
> I think most of the climbs lower off….
Not any more as there doesn’t appear to be any chain…
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In reply to ExiledScot:
This is the last year of BPS, so assume it means that the current owner is holding onto that cash?
Interesting to note about the hunting and mineral rights as you say, would want to be pretty sure no one was going to turn up and start quarrying the crag at any point!
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In reply to Arms Cliff:
I was wondering about the fishing rights, must be some real whoppers in that huge river that you have to step over to get to the crag.
Do mineral rights give you right of access to extract "minerals", or would that have to be negotiated (£) with the landowner?
In reply to Michael Hood:
There’s a load of signal crayfish in there, so you could set up a ‘Yorkshire Langoustines’ business 😂
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In reply to Arms Cliff:
...
> Interesting to note about the hunting and mineral rights as you say, would want to be pretty sure no one was going to turn up and start quarrying the crag at any point!
Quite often, mineral rights are restricted to underground access, that is, they would not have access via the surface owned by the landowner. In effect, it's just the right to have a mine traverse under your land.
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In reply to Steve Claw:
> The BMC should consider this.
> A crowd fund might get a large chunk of it.
It's a bit of a minority crag for the BMC, I'd have thought ?
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In reply to Supertrickywoocheese:
I wonder if a group of North Yorkshire Limestone legends could buy it.
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In reply to ExiledScot:
> Sounds like one for the bmc and a generous benefactor.
A rich benefactor like an Arab royal such as CP MBS?!
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In reply to GrahamD:
There are is part of the crag with 3+ graded routes.
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In reply to ExiledScot:
It says that they aren't selling the BPS entitlements whoch isn't really a surprise as they will hold little value after this year.
It's a tricky time to sell as we transition from BPS to ELMS and it nay be wise to play it safe by making it clear that no entitlements are included.
In reply to timjones:
> It says that they aren't selling the BPS entitlements whoch isn't really a surprise as they will hold little value after this year.
> It's a tricky time to sell as we transition from BPS to ELMS and it nay be wise to play it safe by making it clear that no entitlements are included.
It seems the seller wants their cake, whilst offloading all the sssi responsibility etc.. it won't generate much income and obviously development is pretty much impossible, a new owner will struggle to add value. The climbing angle represents their entire sales pitch.
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In reply to ExiledScot:
There isn't much "cake" in the remaining BPS payments as they are being rapidly scaled down over the next few years.
The buyers gets 18 acres of grazing and hopefully access to slowly developing ELMS but I wouldn't like to guarantee that it would be easy for a new owner given the total pigs ear that they are making of it for those who are not buying or selling at this tricky time.
The guide price is about what I would expect an agent to pitch it at, it may sell for more or it may sell for less.
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In reply to timjones:
It's safer than a bit coin bet. You could always lease the grazing back to previous owner!
In reply to ExiledScot:
> It's safer than a bit coin bet. You could always lease the grazing back to previous owner!
I'm not saying that it was anything other than safe, I'm pointing out that people appear to have overlooked the grazing when they question the price and that government environmental schemes are a shambolic mess at present. The opening up of privately funded options alongside government schemes should offer other options.
It seems rather bold to assume that they previous owner will continue farming.
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In reply to ExiledScot:
Is there any livestock on that land? I’ve never seen any before - it all has direct access to the road, doesn’t it?
In reply to timjones:
I wasn't suggesting that you said it was risky. It's a novelty investment, not one with a rapid return.
I don't know the current owner, but it has a whiff of a large estate looking to sell off their least beneficial land, maybe for some inheritance tax cash etc.
https://kilnseypark.co.uk/about-us/history-of-kilnsey-estate/
Or, maybe it's even owned by the quarry companies that extracted from some big holes down the road.
In reply to James Malloch:
The photos suggest that something grazes it and if it is an SSSI because it is calcareous grassland then it is likely to need careful grazing to prevent it reverting to scrub and woodland.
In reply to timjones:
Occasionally the farmer grazes sheep there.
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In reply to Lhod:
> The crag was just taking the high ground
I found just the same - very stuck up, with an extremely overbearing attitude.
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In reply to ExiledScot:
> A sceptic might think they know someone in the climbing world will buy what is almost worthless as a piece of land to them.
I suspect the OP knows the answer to that question. I suspect they are either the owner or agent...
New member in the last 4 weeks, one post.......
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In reply to Supertrickywoocheese:
I think the crag comes free with the agricultural land. I’m just looking to buy some at the moment, and the price per acre they are asking for is about average now.
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In reply to Mike_d78:
> I suspect the OP knows the answer to that question. I suspect they are either the owner or agent...
> New member in the last 4 weeks, one post.......
8ugger, the natural cynic in me should have spotted that!
In reply to Mike_d78:
No, nothing to do with me, I live locally saw it for sale on Rightmove & thought it would be of interest to the climbing community. I have a new profile as I haven't climbed for years & I am re-igniting my past passion.
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In reply to GrahamD:
they don’t have that sort of money
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In reply to ExiledScot:
To be fair, that's only 3,000 people at £50! I reckon we could get that...
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In reply to Removed User:
I think a via ferrata would give a better return on investment.
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In reply to James Malloch:
I wondered about this too since the land is SSSI and needs to be kept in improving/good condition. Wonder if its a reason the farmer is selling it ie grazing impracticality.
In reply to OllieBarker:
The BMC response from the other thread:
>The BMC are carefully exploring all options and have not come to any decisions yet.
>As has been posted already there are some risks associated with a change of ownership, but given the land designations these are considered relatively low.
>The BMC has a very limited fund set aside for the purchase and management of crags on a last resort basis. A full purchase of Kilnsey at the guide price, plus management costs would use up a large proportion of this and can't be justified within the terms of the fund given the low risk to access and opportunity cost of using up the fund.
>However, given Kilnsey's exceptional importance and our recognition that ownership would secure untroubled access for the long term the BMC would do whatever it can within its means, to support a serious crowdfunded bid and would be keen to discuss this in detail with any individual or group thinking along those lines.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/kilnsey_crag_for_sale_at_150000-76052...
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In reply to d_b:
It's all about zipwires these days.
In reply to Removed User: £50 - you get a photo hanging off the first bolt of northern lights , £1000 - likewise but Steve mclure belaying . A list will be published of the price for various non climbing celebs to belay you . I call dibs on the remaining chuckle brother and Keith Harris ( with Orville ) .
In reply to mike123: I just checked - it’s Paul .
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In reply to mike123:
> A list will be published of the price for various non climbing celebs to belay you . I call dibs on the remaining chuckle brother and Keith Harris ( with Orville ) .
I think you'd struggle to get Keith to hold your rope. I'd be up for Orville (so long as he doesn't sing that song)
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In reply to timjones:
>government environmental schemes are a shambolic mess at present.
Presumably these will eventually be sorted out, and everything points towards an emphasis on improving biodiversity, so there is probably a future income stream there.
>The opening up of privately funded options alongside government schemes should offer other options.
That was my first thought when I saw the emphasis on potential for biodiversity improvement. "Biodiversity Net Gain" is the next big thing -from later this year all property development will have to show a minimum 10% net gain in biodiversity (using measurable metrics), and if that can't be provided on site then the developer will have to purchase rights to carry out improvements elsewhere. This is seen as a possible future income stream for landowners with suitable land, but as no one is quite sure yet just how such a market will develop the agents can do no more than hint at the possibility.
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In reply to mike123:
Can you sort me out with Rich Simpson?
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In reply to Howard J:There is certainly potential but with the current and upcoming offers having the requirement to have claimed BPS this year I'm not sure how eligible the land would be if it changes hands.The land Kilnsey may suffer from the same issues that I am facing with BNG, if it aready has a high value it is hard to demostrate an improvement. Those who have maintained habitats are currently disadvantaged by both government and private schemes.
I also think that there is a hint that government may back down on the BNG requirement for developers. There may bemore potential in carbon sequestration but once again this will disadvantage those who are already doing well if we don't recognise that retention is as valuable as sequestration.
> >government environmental schemes are a shambolic mess at present.
> Presumably these will eventually be sorted out, and everything points towards an emphasis on improving biodiversity, so there is probably a future income stream there.
> >The opening up of privately funded options alongside government schemes should offer other options.
> That was my first thought when I saw the emphasis on potential for biodiversity improvement. "Biodiversity Net Gain" is the next big thing -from later this year all property development will have to show a minimum 10% net gain in biodiversity (using measurable metrics), and if that can't be provided on site then the developer will have to purchase rights to carry out improvements elsewhere. This is seen as a possible future income stream for landowners with suitable land, but as no one is quite sure yet just how such a market will develop the agents can do no more than hint at the possibility.
I also think that there is a hint that government may back down on the BNG requirement for developers. There may bemore potential in carbon sequestration but once again this will disadvantage those who are already doing well if we don't recognise that retention is as valuable as sequestration.
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In reply to timjones:
Kilney is part of a larger SSSI unit, currently in unfavourable/recovering condition, and is not in an agri-environment scheme. The income generated from such a small parcel would be negligible given AE schemes are income foregone anyway but if it were to be bought by the BMC it might well be possible to take it onto a neighbouring agreement but unclear what sort of management it might need - occasional grazing/scrub control/tree planting possibly.
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In reply to Bulls Crack:
We desperately need to move away from the flawed "income foregone" model, it is no use compensating one person for creating habitat if financial reality drives enough person to deplete the same habitat elsewhere.
The present SFI options focus on soil organic matter but only recognise it's value on arable or improved grassland, if OM has a value then that value must surely be the same regardless of the vegetation cover on the soils?
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In reply to Removed User:
> Can you sort me out with Rich Simpson?
£25 + pie and chips + a healthy dose of skepticism ?
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In reply to Supertrickywoocheese:
Got a 5 minute article on channel 5 news tonight. Interviewed a climber but I dunno who.
In reply to graeme jackson:
Yes there were a couple of channel 5 reporters at the crag today
In reply to graeme jackson:
In reply to graeme jackson:
He didn't look like a climber to me, more like a lost rambler.
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In reply to arran_deakin:
Whoever you are that’s a poor attitude to take towards what is obviously an older confused gentleman
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In reply to Removed User:
> Can you sort me out with Rich Simpson?
I'd only accept him if DJViper was busy.
In reply to Tim Lowe:
> ..obviously an older confused gentleman
That's a description that fits about 90% of the people posting in this forum to be fair.
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In reply to timjones:
It all a bit of a mess and a far cry from the public money for public goods which, with some grudging acknowledgment, Gove did want to see.
In reply to arran_deakin:
> He didn't look like a climber to me, more like a lost rambler.
One thing I noticed when they were interviewing the artists is that their pictures could have done with a little bit more black in them.
In reply to Tim Lowe:
He clearly wasn't a local.
In reply to arran_deakin:
😂
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In reply to Bulls Crack:
It's depressing and the fact that Mark Spencer appears to be moving back towards the income foregone mantra doesn't bode well for the future.
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