UKC

Thinking of moving to either Leeds or Stockholm in the next year. I've been to Stockholm for a week in summer, but never to Leeds (I'm an american living in Switzerland). 

Where would you rather live in terms of access to outdoor pursuits. These days I'm mainly keen on ski touring, and moderate outdoor climbing, especially multipitch. Also enjoy hillwalking, some biking, camping etc. I'd be working a pretty regular 9-5 job, so I'm mainly interested in which of those cities has better access to the outdoors for day trips, or possibly short weekend trips. Also consider weather and stuff like that. 

thanks!

In reply to Paul Zander:

You won't get too much ski touring or multi pitch done on easy day trips from Leeds. There are better cities suited to accessing those pursuits. Leeds would be an excellent location for single pitch trad and sport, and bouldering. Weekend trips you could be in the Lakes and Snowdonia within around an hour and 45, depending on your start point and destination specifics. 

In reply to Paul Zander:

I dont know the climbing near Stockholm but Bohsulan is fantastic for crack climbing. Bit of a trek from Stockholm I think. I lived in Oslo for a bit so could get there for weekends. If skiing is your thing then no contest and Sweden wins hands down. Whilst I loved my time in Norway I think what I missed most about the UK was the massive variety of rock types over such a small area. I never realised until I left how diverse the UK landscape is. Leeds is not a bad spot for a climber to be based and weekends in the lakes are easily doable.

In reply to Paul Zander:

I would stay in Switzerland....

In reply to fenski:

Mmm.... that’s better than what I was going to say....

Leeds - it’s in England 

Stockholm - it’s not in England 

Pretty clear cut if you ask me?

In reply to Paul Zander:

I have been to Stockholm in November, make sure you can tolerate cold weather

Also not sure how much a pint of beer is in Leeds these days (£3 or £4?) but in Stockholm a 400ml beer was £8

In reply to Paul Zander:

I live near Leeds. 

Leeds is alright, it's not Stockholm though.

Depends if you want northern industrial "charm" or blonde Swedish charm. 

In reply to Paul Zander:

The landscap in much of Sweden is flat - very flat. I'm about an hour north of Stockholm - there's a bit of climbing here (although more bouldering), lots and lots of forest (decent mountainbiking, and a massive orienteering scene), lots and lots of lakes (I'm tempted to get a kayak), plenty of camping opportunities also - there is the right to camp pretty much anywhere, but access to drinking water can be a problem. I've only been here since last summer, but the summer weather (from my limited experience) is warmer and drier than in the UK.

November & December were pretty depressing - weather like the UK but with even less day light. Since then it has been a pretty good winter with plenty of opportunity for cross country skiing straight from the front door (or doable as a day trip from Stockholm). For 'proper' ski touring you'll need to head towards the Norwegian border, about a 5hr drive? More if you want to head further north.

If you're set on ski touring and multi pitch climbing, then Stockholm probably isn't the place to be. If you're happy just being outdoors and open to trying new activities (kayaking, orienteering) then Sweden can be a great place to live.

In reply to Paul Zander:

Leeds is the center of the universe. Lakes, Wales etc 2 hours max. Loads of single pitch grit within a hour going both North and south.

Zero ski stuff though, the last few times it had snowed significantly in the UK Leeds just got a smattering. 

In reply to Dax H:

A lifetime worth of granite bouldering, trad, and sport in STCKHLM. Drive and hour or so, and you have quadrabled the amount of climbing. 
 

drive 7h or so and you have Bohuslan. 

closest mountains (fjells) are about 5h away for skiing. Or some of the best spring skiing & touring a sleeper train ride away. 
 

add ice skating, kayaking and xc skiing to your repertour and your set for life.

but the cost is booze. Or rather the price of it.
 

I might be somewhat biased (being Nordic), but would either stay in CH or pick Stockholm. 
 

Really the only thing going for Leeds is Grit.

In reply to Richard Horn:

I've been rock climbing in Stockholm in November. In the dark. So top that! 😉 

http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2010/11/urban-climbing-stockholm.html

In reply to Paul Zander:

Sheffield 

In reply to Paul Zander:

Thanks for the help gents! I love skitouring, but I know neither place is gonna be like here. In the end I just want to get outside a bunch of weekends. Single pitch trad or sport is all good. I don't mind cold, especially if there's snow for skiing, but I'm not a big fan of wet. But it sounds like the climbing is pretty quality in Stockholm even if it's kind of a flatland. I'm climbing pretty easy grades, like 6b sport, maybe 6a trad. Looking at postdocs at the universities. Salary is a bit higher in Stockholm, as it should be, but the rent numbers I'm seeing suggest the money will go farther in Leeds. 

In reply to Dax H:

If proximity to the lakes and Wales is what you're after with climbing as an after work option the OP would be better off in Manchester (or Bangor or Kendal)

Pity he doesn't like rain 😂

In reply to Paul Zander:

Id be pretty sure you are correct money wise - but Stockholm really is lovely.

In reply to Paul Zander:

Leeds is good for boulder, and single pitch sport/trad. The southern dales and local grit can be done after work on an evening, with lamp sessions in the winter. Peak is between 1-2 hrs depending on which bit you go to. Lakes is a couple of hours, Gogarth is about 3, less to Llanberris. Scotland is doable in a weekend (6 hours to fort William), and lakes winter day hits are fine. North york moors are between an hour or 2 away, depending on which bit you go to.

So a lifetime of single pitch climbing and bouldering within 1.5 hours. Multi pitch is 2 hours away. Weather is better than the west coast, but we don't have decent winters here. East coast surf is 1.5 hours away. Caving is another option, again 1-2 hours depending on where you go. The dales are nice to explore if you like moorland.

Can't compare to Stockholm. Not sure where I would choose, but either will be different from Switzerland!
 

In reply to Paul Zander:

I did my second degree in Leeds then when I was doing my PhD moved to Helsinki and for various reasons was a regular visitor to Sweden over the next ten or so years - so I've not lived in Stockholm but spent a reasonable amount of time there.

I'd definitely pick Stockholm over Leeds, that might just be as a Brit it's "foreign" and therefore more exciting than "not foreign" but if you're American and haven't lived in the UK or SWE before, I guess both would be interesting. There is loads of possibilities for outdoorsy stuff to do around Yorkshire, and the small mountains of the Lake District are a day trip away if you have a car. I always thought Leeds was a bit meh - and there is definitely a Yorkshire superiority complex! It's alright, although I had done my first degree in Glasgow and most cities pale in comparison to the marvels of there - one of the finest cities in Europe if not the world! But there are nice places to go from Leeds.

Stockholm is almost achingly hip - its just a ridiculously stylish sort of place where things work very well. It's massively international as well - you hear English getting spoken everywhere downtown, its like Berlin like that. Of course its has it tough estates on the periphery with lots of social problems but you don't get much sense of that downtown. Stockholm isn't by any means flat either, with all the water round around the city its really quite beautiful and you can get to areas that don't feel at all urban easily! I've climbed and bouldered at a number of spots write in the city centre, and there are more cliffs out in the suburbs. It strikes me that many parts of Sweden have huge amounts cragging - much that is only being developed recently there is so much rock about. Bohuslan is great, but it's a long drive from Stockholm and there is plenty of climbing much closer. Trekking, XC track skiing or forest ski hiking, cycling/bikepacking, kayak touring possibilities all seem huge. Having lived in Southern Finland for a long time with similar climate and terrain, similar opportunities meant that I didn't miss hillwalking and UK style mountaineering (winter or summer) much. From southern Finland we often went up once or twice a year to Arctic Norway to ski tour in winter and climb in summer. It's probably a couple of hours more drive from Stockholm to Lyngen than it is from Helsinki - so it's a long way, but the logistics make it a breeze - chuck your kit in your car, stop somewhere on the way up for a big supermarket shop, and head off on an arctic expedition of your choice!

Thinking about it now, I rather regret I never got the chance to actually live in Stockholm!

In reply to Richard Horn:

But the problem in Stockholm is not so much the weather, but the early nights through the winter. Can get you down 

(Nice place though)

In reply to Paul Zander: if skiing / ski touring is top of your list then Stockholm wins no contest . As TobyA said if you re ok with long drives then the logistics are easy : throw gear in car , drive , ski , repeat. One could argue that's the same for Leeds and going to Scotland,  as a four to five hour drive gets you there. However , COVID aside , you could easily  live in Leeds three years and a spend lots of weekends driving to Scotland and just getting cold and wet ,  and never get a good days skiing . ChAnces are you will get some magical days out that will be among the best days out you will have anywhere in the world ( and I've thought about that and I do mean anywhere ) but they will be hard won and few And far between . Also Stockholm is full of beautiful people whereas ......

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/09/greggs-map-pies-north...

In reply to Dax H:

Not entirely true, there's a snow dome in Castleford

In reply to profitofdoom:

Actually yeah forgot about that - it was getting dark by 2:30pm or so...

In reply to mike123:

Even easier and perhaps smarter if you need to be at work.

Hop on the sleeper train in the evening and wake up in Åre, Riksgränsen/Abisko or even Narvik, ski for a day (or two) and again sleeper train back south. Less straining than driving.

Living in Finland, I've done the drive akin to Toby to Narvik/Lyngen/Riksgränsen numerous times in the spring.

I've also driven numerous times from Stockholm to Åre for skiing (took ferry to Stockoholm), and once flew to Stockholm and then the sleeper train to the border between SWE and NOR (so between Åre and Trondheim) and back.

In reply to Paul Zander:

I'd agree with everything said about Stockholm. Cheap ish rented accommodation would be the challenge. I'd plan to live a short train ride outside and commute in. With luck and planning this will bring more outdoor activities to your doorstep. 

The difference with Leeds and Stockholm, will be travelling time, Leeds might be nearer but congestion is a problem. In sweden 99% of the time your journey time will be the same, every time. You might have a 4 hr train or drive to get to the outdoors, but it will be more relaxing than uk travel. 

There are a lot of active sports clubs for every activity, especially near cities, the work life culture means folk are active weekdays and weekends. It's the norm for folk to be out of work doing stuff by 6pm latest, especially in summer, or floodlit skiing in winter (tracks and slope).

Warning; it's not cheap, but then Switzerland isn't either! 

In reply to summo:

I’ve heard rented accommodation of any kind is a challenge, there is a waiting list, we’ll my friends were on it and they are quite well off. In the end I think they illegally subletted something extortionate.

In reply to Paul Zander:

I live in Trondheim (Norway), which has a good university and relatively lucrative postdocs. It's not perfect, but I find it a good compromise; world class ski touring and climbing within 3hrs radius. The downside is that the ski touring and climbing within 2hr radius is only ok, but at least it exists.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I guess renting in Stockholm is like trying to get something nice and central, near train or underground etc isn't going to be cheep. 2nd hand rentals aren't illegal, but they are less secure and you might end up moving more often as they tend to be shorter. 

OP, like anywhere there are scammers, don't commit money to a dream apartment that you've only seen online. There will be plenty online blocked or tradera. 

If you know someone in Stockholm, create a sales pitch for potential landlords and get them to share on social media. It's quite common and allegedly works. 

In reply to Graeme G:

Careful. You're coming across a bit 'tomthexenophobeinscotland'. 

In reply to graeme jackson:

LOL. But read again, my answer is ambiguous. It can be read both ways.

In reply to Graeme G:

I'll give you that

In reply to Paul Zander:

Yes, as Scandinavian capitals go, Oslo is ticking way more of your boxes. There's 100s of km of ski, walking and bike trails starting from the edge of the city, although it's forest rather than open hills. Just done a couple of hours cross-country skiing after work this eve myself. You're closer to the mountains as well. Really good climbing in the general Oslo/Drammen area, although not a huge amount of multipitch. You're also 4 hours closer to Sweden's best climbing (Bohuslän) than Stockholm is.

In reply to Paul Zander:

Bouldering on Åland in the Baltic is awesome.

And let’s not forget about the winter surfing outside Stockholm:

vimeo.com/207620007

In reply to summo:

I think they rented a property that didn't have the correct license (ie it was for ownership only not renting). Correct me if I'm wrong but I think its like Norway in that regard, you can't just buy any house and rent it out.

In reply to summo:

https://qz.com/264418/why-its-nearly-impossible-to-rent-an-apartment-in-sto....

In reply to Paul Zander:

Amazing nobody  has asked what kind of craic are you looking for? Both cities have outdoor access with various pros cons, you wont be bored on weekends. As cities Leeds vs Stockholm, there isn't really a contest Stockholm buildings, ocean, less rain etc etc. However are you Nordic in mentality or UKI/American? Let's just say sense of humour/craic whatever you want to call it is vastly different, Scandavians don't like surprises, humour is dry to desert and don't expect a banging scene on a Sunday-Thursday. Also I have literally been asked by Swedes/Finns why  was talking to them because they already had enough friends, mind you the Swiss are pretty closed doors also, how did you get on there?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It's when flats are part of associations, they want owners living there, not renters, or at least long term tenants, as they feel it creates a better community. So folk shouldn't rent out their property without first speaking to them. Houses are never usually part of associations.

A bigger driver is space, Stockholm is an archipelago, add in the parks and forest, there's a finite amount of space. A bit like folk aspiring to live in any other capital city, visualising you'll be living on the doorstep of that city's tourist attractions isn't going to happen without plenty of cash. 

Demand still grows, but your article is a little old, they've built a million plus homes since then, but in all cities not just stockholm, if you can live and work beyond the three biggest cities then property is far more abundant and much much cheaper. 

In reply to summo:

Thanks for the info, yes my post is probably out of date my friends left Stockholm about the age of that article ago. They left because they couldn't get a satisfactory rental situation after a couple of years of being there.